Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

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Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Abhijit » 02 Jun 2009 21:28

Satya's DB talk sounds contrived or not fully thought through (IMHO). In the entire talk between MMS and the services, there was no mention of paki nukes? what good is conventional superiority when water has flown across the bridge of nukes? sounds like a copout to me. BR can take N^3 theories on nudity seriously, GoI can't.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby ramana » 02 Jun 2009 21:50

archan wrote:Basically all those nudges, suggestions (aka threats) mean one thing
Give us the remaining part of Kashmir or else we go down and take you with us!

As to the question that what should India do - my suggestion would be to weaponize havily - sanctions or no sanctions. Drag them in the arms race till they cannot feed themselves. The western pockets are thinning and the Chinese are prudent with their money.


Archan I agree that inaction is no longer an option. But the response has to be the right action. Despite the thinning pockets and prudence those folsk are the ones with the most to lose if India thrives.

Read the dillibilli's comments. One step India has to do is create a defensive situation where the eyeesseye has to be disbanded.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby sum » 02 Jun 2009 21:58

Here's the problem with that type of thinking. Thousands upon thousands more die from road accidents due to bad policing and poor roads, thousands upon thousands die from food in India where the malnourishment is higher than even in Africa, lack of water, and flooding.

More Indians die from mundane acts of survival than terrorism and that is something we need to keep in mind. People need to learn from their mistakes and you're making the same mistake the BJP made in the last election.

Wow....nice logic. So, Congress winning is endorsement of pushing terrorism under the carpet? Im sure that BJP landslide in M'lore is a endorsement of all youth going to bars being thrashed by your logic (since rural India doesn't go to bars)?

The newfound logic: More Indians die of accidents, so allow Pak to kill a few more since its just a drop in the ocean and the ruling party didnt lose a election despite a attack happening.

Please come back and post these same views on BR after a few of your family are bumped off by a Paki sponsored attack (given that your relatives have survived the floods and roads of India :roll: :-? )

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby archan » 02 Jun 2009 22:04

Keshav wrote:Here's the problem with that type of thinking. Thousands upon thousands more die from road accidents due to bad policing and poor roads, thousands upon thousands die from food in India where the malnourishment is higher than even in Africa, lack of water, and flooding.

More Indians die from mundane acts of survival than terrorism and that is something we need to keep in mind. People need to learn from their mistakes and you're making the same mistake the BJP made in the last election.

According to statistics, the US had 42196 deaths on road (driving related). The death toll due to terrorist attacks on 9/11 in the same year was 2751 which is about 6.5% of the road deaths. By your logic, the US should have neglected those 2751 innocent deaths because they were having 15 times more deaths in road accidents. Recently an Air France jet went missing. It was not an old plane, and there seems to be no reason to suspect foul play. Something went wrong and the lives of 200+ people are probably, sadly lost. There is a limitation to technology in today's day and age and you cannot prevent every disaster.

The point is, terrorism by another country in your territory cannot be equated to deaths due to natural disasters and poor infrastructure. If you are presented with a choice to make development in one field or the other (such as this claim of not having enough money) then think about this. You have a flood and lose lives but the flood does not guarantee that if you do not put in the money to fix it it will result in an even bigger devastation the next time around. You neglect terrorism and you can be rest assured that the next time around they will plan for a bigger boom. There is no reason for them not to. Their arms and electronic equipment is only going to get more and more sophisticated and if you don't grow in capability disproportionately, you will suffer. Such are gorrilla wars.

Keshav wrote:Rural people don't care about non-Naxalite terrorism.

Average citizen is always going to be more concerned with what their immediate life around them is like. That is why leadership has to be visionary and see for the overall good of the nation. When people think too locally, you get the Marathi manus vs. Bihari antics.

Keshav wrote:They have more on their plate and saying that Islamic terrorism is the number one threat to the Indian people is silly.

Yes they do and no I disagree that the threat is silly. It is very real.

Keshav wrote:Should we deal with it? Of course - no one is saying we shouldn't but don't lose sight of the trees for the forest.

My point exactly, but in the opposite direction. No matter how well you develop your infrastructure; you can have brand spanking new airplanes, 8 lane highways, sky scrapers and whatnot... But if you have a strong TSP hell bent on sending armed terrorists into your nation from 3-4 directions, hell bent on flooding your economy with your fake currency, you will not find peace for your common man. Like I said earlier, you cannot guard every inch of your land - especially in a country like India - no matter how rich you get. The first and foremost aim IMO should be to destroy the root of this terrorism. Destroy the places where are these people trained, who supplies the money, who makes the arms, who conducts the operations. You can be on the defensive for decades, have hours long lines on your airports for security checking, have millions of CCTV cameras and millions of men monitoring them but until you get rid of the terror factory, you will not find peace. That is my stand.
And you should ask those villagers who have lost children, wifes, husbands and parents because they were blown away into smithereens that do they care more about terrorists or lack of electricity.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby sum » 02 Jun 2009 22:09

TV channels showing CCTV footage of the Lahore blasts...

The most startling thing is how the Paki policemen even put Usaine Bolt to shame when it comes to sprinting away from the scene of danger. In what is supposed to be a police HQ, the terrorists get down from the van and shoot dead the two constables at the gate. After that, there is no one in sight to challenge them for the next 5-10 minutes as all policemen sprint away after leaving the premises faster than one says "Pakistan". The miscreants coolly remove the barricades, start the van, go inside and blow it up!!!

Seems like all Pakis are given training on downhill skiing!!!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby vsudhir » 02 Jun 2009 22:12

Nicely put, Archan.

In any case, the "anti-terror" versus "development" zero sum debate is premised on a false choice, IMVHO.

Heartening to hear DB chaiwala's reporting on GoI's rationale. While we jingoes on BR might oft get impatient, the full national picture of opportunities, threats, resources and constraints is rarely seen at our level of perspective.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby sum » 02 Jun 2009 22:17

So current GoI thinking is US + PRC determined not to allow India to have that decisive edge in conventional weaponry . So what did MMS did well we all saw what it did & will continue on same path next 5 years . MMS & co. assumptions are India need unhintered path towards economic growth till 2020 to be at a certain level where it can start to have " arms race'' against PRC+ US combine . Does it mean complete absence of new weaponry for armed forces if offensive yes , defensive no .

Isn't this the easy way to wash off from any responsibility to protect the citizens in current times?

After every attack, we might get the reply that: wait for few more years till we develop(that stage might never come since our netas are not known for any bold moves and can always keep chanting this line till kingdom come) and then we see.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby ramana » 02 Jun 2009 22:21

vsudhir wrote:Nicely put, Archan.

In any case, the "anti-terror" versus "development" zero sum debate is premised on a false choice, IMVHO.

Heartening to hear DB chaiwala's reporting on GoI's rationale. While we jingoes on BR might oft get impatient, the full national picture of opportunities, threats, resources and constraints is rarely seen at our level of perspective.



Isnt that a shame! Think of the frustration elsewhere. To me the DB chaiwala prespective that sarkar knows it enemies is the most gratifying for they have identified the underlaying mileu that allowed the root cause of TSP to manifest. Even on this forum this is obfuscated/not understood.
--------
Sum, India's real growth started with the economic reforms in 1992 that Rao garu launched. So start the clock from that time. The economic growth is the prime strategic goal of India and Indians for everything depends on it.

Expect more messes created to slow it down as we see the man-lion move ahead.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Samay » 02 Jun 2009 22:23

RajeshA wrote:One way to intimidate the Pakistanis is to

- set up a credible ballistic missile shield over India.
- C4ISR
- heavy conventional build up
- systemize training in schools for a nuclear exchange, ABC attacks
- build nuclear bunkers for leadership, government, scientists, engineers, medical professionals. Do it publicly.

Show that India is not afraid of a nuclear exchange! Call the bluff and/or incinerate the Pakis!

Keshav wrote:2) How can collecting intelligence create new opportunities? What kinds of opportunities and options did you have in mind when you wrote this?


I believe there is no need for further details on this. It is pretty much clear, what is meant.

Nothing's going to happen, just wait and watch the bunch of old/young politicians we have send to parliament, even if little happens against porkistan it will be just a knee jerk reaction and everyone from armed forces to local politician of ruling party will take its credit, situation is hopeless with the current System

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby enqyoob » 02 Jun 2009 22:24

Actually old age has killed billions of Indians over the years, and continues to be a deadly killer. So why bother about any other kind of threat?

Bhavitavyam Bhavet Eva. All is Maya. Bring on the Taliban - the Dhimmies Await Our Masters!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Dilbu » 02 Jun 2009 22:32

About the Dilli Billi assessment. What if in 2020 also the same unkil and aunties are around to counter 'arms race' from India? Will India wait for another 20 years of 'growth' before it starts doing something about terrorism against it (which is also clocking an enviable rate of growth and will keep up with India's growth) ? All the while TSP mofos eat away our beloved mother land bit by bit, day by day. Some theories we have here are more chankian than chankia himself to say the least. :roll:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby ramana » 02 Jun 2009 22:38

Please read this pdf:

The Fragile Pakistani State: Ally of US and China

Might be good to add to every TSP thread?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Nihat » 02 Jun 2009 22:40

The lack of alternatives or rather Resolve is indeed frustrating.

Any stringent measure taken will involve incredible amount of guts , the IWT is one way we can threaten the Pukes into action , the thought of half of the land of pure slowly turn into a desert without a bullet being fired has got to teach them a lesson.

However I'm not much aware onthe kind of action or sanction that India could face for taking such a leap.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby suryag » 02 Jun 2009 22:40

Dilbu wrote:About the Dilli Billi assessment...


Reminds me of a friend of mine who used to always focus on farming rather than resources for the military while playing Age of Empires and almost always he used to get his a$$ whipped by all of us. Wonder when our establishment will come out of this mindset of establishing overwhelming economic superiority before they dedicate resources for our defence forces. Case in point is Japan(intentionally or forcefully), with all its economic muscle it is still not able to prevent NoKo from having its bums. A supporting case for my point is Israel, right mix of economic and military might

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby sum » 02 Jun 2009 22:43

Dunno but (despite Ramana-garu's assertion), i am feeling more scared/depressed after reading the Dilli-Billi argument than i was before it since it now confirms that we do not plan(despite even a nuke exploding on our soil) to act till 2020 atleast!!!!

Wait for us to develop is a very spurious argument(like the accidents killing Indians argument), IMO, since it is very tough to keep everyone happy in our country.

Any stringent measure taken will involve incredible amount of guts , the IWT is one way we can threaten the Pukes into action , the thought of half of the land of pure slowly turn into a desert without a bullet being fired has got to teach them a lesson.

Sir, in a "morally right" country like ours where even terrorist deaths are not supposed to be avenged since human beings anyways die and are not immortal (WKK logic) and where terrorist's families are paid pensions, do you ever envisage such a thing ever happening in your wildest dreams?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Prem » 02 Jun 2009 22:44

By 2020 we will have real danda to shove in their behind, Danda right now is not big , thick or oiled enough to torture them all the way to 72nd street ranch.When we have the capability to take down the whole karvan of dusht dushmans together, they will think thrice before letting lap dogs suck on them and do poop in neighbour's living room. This is the decade to concentrate on internal enemies and accumulating obcene amount of Arth.Economic strength will coincide with upcoming new generation of leadership, the combination will change the dynamic of whole game played since 18th century.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby munna » 02 Jun 2009 22:50

Dilbu wrote:About the Dilli Billi assessment. What if in 2020 also the same unkil and aunties are around to counter 'arms race' from India? Will India wait for another 20 years of 'growth' before it starts doing something about terrorism against it (which is also clocking an enviable rate of growth and will keep up with India's growth) ? All the while TSP mofos eat away our beloved mother land bit by bit, day by day. Some theories we have here are more chankian than chankia himself to say the least. :roll:

Dilbu and other respected forum bandhus after the Mumbai mayhem my blood boiled and I wanted to drive down to Wagha and if nothing else lob a stone or two on the mofos across the border who were sponsoring such acts against us. However in my interactions with some DB types it became vaguely observable (backed up by Satya) that it is not the western neighbour that we are fighting but we are fighting a world order that wants the SDREs to remain cowering in the shadows of despair and poverty. India is a game changer and the world order knows that, they will try all tricks in the book to destroy Indian growth and progress while we have to endeavour to retain the same. Mind you after Mumbai it was PM + MMS and not MMS only who were dealing with most of affairs and both are known to be silent yet resolute killers.
Now the question is that in our quest for the opportune time should we let out country's security wither away or find a middle way of keeping the Pig and Lizwrd off balance. Whether the battle hardened Sardarji has a few aces up his sleeve or not? Time will only tell, till then all is sekoolar, ploglessive and pissfool only. :((

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby vsudhir » 02 Jun 2009 22:53

Simple pooch onlee.

Why hasn't TSP tried another Mumbai yet? Just wondering?
They can always blame it on 'non-state-actors' and get away with it. No?
And the piss process is anyway stuck and going nowhere.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Dilbu » 02 Jun 2009 22:56

Prem wrote:By 2020 we will have real danda to shove in their behind, Danda right now is not big , thick or oiled enough to torture them all the way to 72nd street ranch.When we have the capability to take down the whole karvan of dusht dushmans together, they will think thrice before letting lap dogs suck on them and do poop in neighbour's living room. This is the decade to concentrate on internal enemies and accumulating obcene amount of Arth.Economic strength will coincide with upcoming new generation of leadership, the combination will change the dynamic of whole game played since 18th century.

Saar that will happen only if Indians decide to grow and prosper without caring a rat's a$$ for terrorism coming at them and continue to go about their daily business totally unaffected. Single minded dedication to accumulate clout with the final solution for the mess firmly in sight. But that is not the case at all. The trend is to do things the 'IPL in South Africa' way. That kind of daily affairs is not going to help much in accumulating obscene amount of Arth. All this talk about upcoming generations and their wealth reminds me of a saying: A bird in hand is worth two in the bush.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Samay » 02 Jun 2009 23:01

^^all
I would say that in terms of ground reality things will be worse in coming decade with more possibility than ever . These bunch of fool politicians have reduced the Indian people into those fearful people who are always attacked by someone, just the same way that happened a thousand years ago,and the armed forces into show piece ,, all modernity, economic/knowledge progress meets a black hole because of a bunch of buffoons that are ensured to be at the top due a corrupt ruling and administrative System
I would emphasize here on a word System because a lot of effort was put by british and by their dhimmies to istall that corrupt System during 1947 era and after that.
Here MK Gandhi's role is significant and his uprising as well because it was only due his commonsense that he made people realize about the System,which was their to make them slaves,and how to fight it.
Until this system is changed ,Indians wont get their basic Right to Defend themselves from any tsp,unkil,uk,chinki, crap ,etc world order lying around.
just read this for some limelight
26/11 Mumbai attacks being handled by the Indian government in an inept manner
then this
UK blocks India’s UN move on Azhar
and then this
India's views on release of Hafiz Saeed 'misplaced': Pakistan
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Samay » 02 Jun 2009 23:06

vsudhir wrote:Simple pooch onlee.

Why hasn't TSP tried another Mumbai yet? Just wondering?
They can always blame it on 'non-state-actors' and get away with it. No?
And the piss process is anyway stuck and going nowhere.

because there were elections in between

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Bhima » 02 Jun 2009 23:19


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby John Snow » 02 Jun 2009 23:24

We have no end game scenario vis a vis TSP, that is the crux of the problem when it comes to final shot we hesitate, our janata has also been fed on fairy tales to live and let live bed time stories ( do ankhen bara hath, sab ko samati de bhagvan sentiment).

Till we make a national resolve that enough is enough and nobody can black mail or twist our arm we will have to revist the solgan of Spinster "Score kaya hai terrorist ka" after each attack.

I thought 26/11 was the final blow, even our own Mav(erick) put up a headline along with Ralphy Jones (of the world) Send Saluja with flowers to delhi this is not a request, this is begging :mrgreen:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Keshav » 02 Jun 2009 23:48

archan wrote:You neglect terrorism and you can be rest assured that the next time around they will plan for a bigger boom. There is no reason for them not to. Their arms and electronic equipment is only going to get more and more sophisticated and if you don't grow in capability disproportionately, you will suffer. Such are gorrilla wars.


Having a good intelligence community with the latest technology seems to be the proper way to spend money rather than starting a nuclear arms race with Pakistan in order to drag them down (which is what my post was responding to).

Average citizen is always going to be more concerned with what their immediate life around them is like. That is why leadership has to be visionary and see for the overall good of the nation. When people think too locally, you get the Marathi manus vs. Bihari antics.

Yes they do and no I disagree that the threat is silly. It is very real.


I agree. And I suppose I'm diverging from the topic here a little but one of the reasons the BJP lost was because of its harping on terrorism and its emphasis on national issues rather than harping on local issues. That's not to say they didn't have them, its just that they should have supported one to get elected and push the other while in office.

Coming back, though. I think this relates to the BRF mentality. There seems to be so much emphasis on Islamic terrorism as the number one issue when it clearly isn't for the majority of people. Is it a big deal? Yes. Is it an extension of geopolitics from the West and the East? Yes. But can it be used to rally the rurals together? No. Improving their standard of life does not involve "defeating" Pakistan. Which is not to say that city dwellers don't matter but you have to integrate both rather than pushing for arms races and pushing a huge, unsustainable military budget.

And you should ask those villagers who have lost children, wifes, husbands and parents because they were blown away into smithereens that do they care more about terrorists or lack of electricity.


It's possible you're right but we need to have visionary leaders who can look past marginal rural deaths at the big picture. This is probably a false dichotomy because they care about both equally, I assume.

Once again, I don't want to seem callous or detached but in the long run, it is the development of the people who will be educated and alert for threats rather than the farmer who has to worry about his crop everyday. As someone said, it would be stupid to say that guns must be sacrificed for butter and vice versa in any extreme way. Finding balance is the only thing you can do.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby archan » 03 Jun 2009 00:02

Like some have pointed out already, it is rarely "either this or that". A nation develops when it does that on multiple fronts. Economics is perhaps the most important strategic asset when dealing with international community, no doubt. But when you are dealing with an insane maniac of a nation whose Raison d'être is to see your nation destroyed regardless of what happens to them themselves, then you have to have muscle.
Again, an armed race with pak is not going to bankrupt India. We are talking about a nation on life support from IMF. The equality is not even close to what it was between US/USSR. What is our defense budget after all. Until like last year, it was much less than what it should have been.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby ramana » 03 Jun 2009 00:04

For a nation "guns versus butter" is a false debate. Both are needed.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby IndraD » 03 Jun 2009 00:07

vsudhir wrote:Simple pooch onlee.

Why hasn't TSP tried another Mumbai yet? Just wondering?

myself looking for answer to this, has Indian intell grown so much or Pakis are busy with fighting themselves? Or the aakas in Paki army think it is time to lie low.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby sudeepj » 03 Jun 2009 00:07

I dont think that one can equate deaths from terror related acts and road accidents etc. One is random, almost an act of God, while the other is specifically directed towards destruction of the Indian state.

Poor infrastructure, natural disasters, famines etc. can destroy countries and nations, but we crossed that level of development a long time ago.

Having said that, I feel that the poor in India do not see the threat from Pakistan the same way as city dwellers do. In rural India, the cost of life is cheap. They are struggling so much with day to day mundane matters that they dont have the time or the empathy to feel bad about terrorist strikes in urban India.

This disparity and separation hinders the evolution of a national consensus, that Pakistan must cease to exist.

Without this national consensus, however much weapons we have, we will not strike out against Pakistan.

With this national consensus in place, we will confront them with whatever we have.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby John Snow » 03 Jun 2009 00:17

death due to terror show State is out of control, death due to accidents shows indviduals (not the powers be directly) are out of control.

They are uneuqual, in domain and ra(n) ge
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby KLNMurthy » 03 Jun 2009 01:30

Keshav wrote:A response to Archan, as well:

Here's the problem with that type of thinking. Thousands upon thousands more die from road accidents due to bad policing and poor roads, thousands upon thousands die from food in India where the malnourishment is higher than even in Africa, lack of water, and flooding.

More Indians die from mundane acts of survival than terrorism and that is something we need to keep in mind. People need to learn from their mistakes and you're making the same mistake the BJP made in the last election.

Rural people don't care about non-Naxalite terrorism.

They have more on their plate and saying that Islamic terrorism is the number one threat to the Indian people is silly. Because it really isn't, not by a longshot. Should we deal with it? Of course - no one is saying we shouldn't but don't lose sight of the trees for the forest.


How can I say this politely... there's something seriously lacking in your mental processes.

Why thousands, hundreds of thousands of people die every month from all sorts of causes including old age. So, let us just not bother about terrorism, and just disband national security.

What exactly are you doing on BRF if this is your mindset?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby KLNMurthy » 03 Jun 2009 01:33

vsudhir wrote:Simple pooch onlee.

Why hasn't TSP tried another Mumbai yet? Just wondering?
They can always blame it on 'non-state-actors' and get away with it. No?
And the piss process is anyway stuck and going nowhere.


Hafeez sayyad is out of prison. Enough said.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby RajeshA » 03 Jun 2009 02:11

Keshav wrote:I agree. And I suppose I'm diverging from the topic here a little but one of the reasons the BJP lost was because of its harping on terrorism and its emphasis on national issues rather than harping on local issues. That's not to say they didn't have them, its just that they should have supported one to get elected and push the other while in office.

Coming back, though. I think this relates to the BRF mentality. There seems to be so much emphasis on Islamic terrorism as the number one issue when it clearly isn't for the majority of people. Is it a big deal? Yes. Is it an extension of geopolitics from the West and the East? Yes. But can it be used to rally the rurals together? No. Improving their standard of life does not involve "defeating" Pakistan. Which is not to say that city dwellers don't matter but you have to integrate both rather than pushing for arms races and pushing a huge, unsustainable military budget. Once again, I don't want to seem callous or detached but in the long run, it is the development of the people who will be educated and alert for threats rather than the farmer who has to worry about his crop everyday. As someone said, it would be stupid to say that guns must be sacrificed for butter and vice versa in any extreme way. Finding balance is the only thing you can do.


Keshav,

there are many on BRF, who are of the view, that our political system is not sufficiently responsive to the requirements of the people. I am of the view that democracy like the market finds its own equilibrium. Sooner or later the politician is required to deliver, sooner or later a stage comes when promises only fail to satisfy voters. I have faith, that in India, a political system that has long been in the oven, has started responding to the wishes of the people. I have faith that the voters have developed an intuition of how to filter media stories for facts. So the political system will see to it that the people get the 'butter'.

On the day to day level, the citizen has a different take on what constitutes his security. External threats like terrorism does touch him in his daily life, but only a subsection of society is truly touched, and the narrative soon moves on to whether the system has provided him with security or not. Often the external factors get either drowned or move onto the talk circuit of foreign policy and security experts, the strategic community. There is a level beyond which the common man does not wish to or does not have the time to indulge. He wants to simply be comforted that there is some 'higher up' who knows about these things and will take care of them.

On BRF, usually the focus is not on how to win the next elections, and what the voter wants to hear or not. It is to ponder upon the situation and strategies needed to ensure that the common man need not have to think of these things. External threats assessments and 'think-tanking' are not to win elections. It is there to see through the bigger picture, the existential requirements of the nation in an inhospitable environment.

When confronted with such topics it is natural that you will find a different tone, a different emphasis on BRF. On BRF we assess a different set of challenges, than the common man does in his day to day life. In private lives each one of us, is also the aam aadmi. So we all do acknowledge the nobility of his fight in daily life. In his subconsciousness, he too acknowledges the worth of the endeavor of all those who do ponder upon the security of the nation we all share. The sets of challenges the common man and the BRFite give thoughts to may be different, but we are all still joined at the hip with the common destiny of this ship, our nation, our India, and even though we do not talk about it often we understand each other.

I believe, I can speak for many on this forum, when I say, that it does not matter for us that BJP lost in spite of or because of the fact that they focused on terrorism. Islamic terrorism would continue to dominate the BRF thinking simply because the threat would continue to remain present and real, even though one doesn't win elections on the subject, which the least of us are striving for, anyway.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby archan » 03 Jun 2009 02:23

I think this relates to the BRF mentality.

BTW what the heck is this BRF mentality? anyone know? :shock:
From what I see, many different people with different ideas post here. There is almost never a complete agreement to any point (even among moderators :wink: ). So what is the common mentality which we all allegedly have?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby ramana » 03 Jun 2009 02:36

archan wrote:
I think this relates to the BRF mentality.

BTW what the heck is this BRF mentality? anyone know? :shock:
From what I see, many different people with different ideas post here. There is almost never a complete agreement to any point (even among moderators :wink: ). So what is the common mentality which we all allegedly have?



Shh, Intelligent people confuse it with Hindutvaa. Didnt you read about it in ReDiff by ace ex-uncooked chief. No wonder they have so many PMs dead (BTW both the plots had external links). With such Sherlocks protecting them who needs enemies?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby RajeshA » 03 Jun 2009 02:48

archan wrote:
I think this relates to the BRF mentality.

BTW what the heck is this BRF mentality? anyone know? :shock:
From what I see, many different people with different ideas post here. There is almost never a complete agreement to any point (even among moderators :wink: ). So what is the common mentality which we all allegedly have?


I think, he is implying that hardly any BRFites like Pakistanis or Islamic extremism.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Baljeet » 03 Jun 2009 03:11

ramana wrote:Please read this pdf:

The Fragile Pakistani State: Ally of US and China

Might be good to add to every TSP thread?


Ramana Boss
what a gem you found. After reading this paper it seems that life has its own way of blow back. Here are the examples...of blowbacks.

1. India Supported LTTE, we ended up sucking wind
2. Chinese Supported Viet Cong against US, they ended up getting some much deserved A$$Whupping.
3. Americans Supported their puppets in Vietnam, Cuba they ended up in humiliation, with all their might and technology.
4. Russians supported their puppets in Afghanistan, they broke apart
5. Pakistanis raised taliban, the same taliban is threating to break them apart.

JMT

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Keshav » 03 Jun 2009 03:12

RajeshA, archan, sudeepj -
Thanks for the impassioned responses.

archan wrote:Again, an armed race with pak is not going to bankrupt India. We are talking about a nation on life support from IMF. The equality is not even close to what it was between US/USSR. What is our defense budget after all. Until like last year, it was much less than what it should have been.


As long as their are remnants of neo-conservative and Atlanticist thinkers are in Obama's neighborhood, an arms race with Pakistan is going to be an arms race with America - one which India will lose and certainly be blamed for.

While Pakistan isn't North Korea, we're talking about an establishment that is willing to do what it takes either for greed or for Islam (at the cost of a few Abduls here or there). Who's to say they won't take all those billions of dollars from the Americans and the Chinese to make weapons? Then what?

At this point in time, even if it did work. I don't think India has that kind of spine at the moment.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby ramana » 03 Jun 2009 03:16

Thanks Baljeet. We try to keep on top.

I like that author as he gives a different prespective and lets us think from non Anglo-Saxon point of view.

BTW, I think Philip posted in some other thread the reason Mrs. IG supported the LTTE was to prevent them from becoming foils for others which they did anyway. The lesson is to manage the periphery and not worry about blowback for it will happen anyway. She was able to keep the problem off shore.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby John Snow » 03 Jun 2009 03:29

I think we should get back to TSP affairs (in this thread) and in the ground, inspite the uncooked chefs at the helm of intelligent thinking and writings.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Anujan » 03 Jun 2009 03:44

Army recovers 79 kidnapped students from militants
All except one of the kidnapped students and staff members of Cadet College Razmak were recovered in a military operation, the Inter Services Public Relations said on Tuesday.

Gul Bahadur, leader of the Ittehad-i-Shura Mujahideen{How come every Paki is a member/leader of some organization or other ? }, North Waziristan, has wide influence in Bakkakhel and some officials believe that the kidnapping could not have taken place without his blessing.

{And in fine print}District Police Officer of Bannu Iqbal Marwat, however, said that 67 cadets had managed to reach the police, while over 400 were missing.


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