Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

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svinayak
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Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby svinayak » 12 Jun 2009 20:59

Anujan wrote:
They have not figured it out yet


Acharya-saar
For one, please do clarify. Are you trying to imply that desh purposely ignored paki preparation so that we get an opportunity to fight, win, achieve unity, army-intel modernization and give BJP a shot at forming government ?

If so, there is no event on the ground that substantiates this claim. If you revisit 98-99 period, '96 government (Deve Gowda) fell in jan/feb 98 followed by elections in feb/march 98 and '98 government (Vajpayee) formed in March 98. Kargil was detected in Feb/March 99. There are four indications which point to the fact that we got caught with our pants down.

Go to Kargil thread in the forum and read the sequence of events. All the data is hindsight but too many events in the period was being orchestrated outside the control of Indian govt.
viewtopic.php?p=614063#p614063
http://www.fas.org/news/india/1999/index.html

The info about Skardu PAF capability in March 1999 coincides with April 1999 political uncertainity of the govt. It looks as if Pak had inside information about what is happening inside Indian political circle- like imminent drop of support by one of the party. The fall of Indian govt is *after* the preparation of incursion by PA.


KARGIL TIMELINE



1998


June 1998 - first and most important warning was a June 2, 1998 note, personally signed by the then Intelligence Bureau Director, Shyamal Datta
In June 1998 the Kargil Brigade Intelligence Team (BIT) reported that ammunition supplies were being dumped and that terrorists had been seen in Skardu, Warcha and Marol awaiting infiltration through the Kargil sector.


July 1998 - July, Intelligence Bureau informants reported the deployment of M-11 missiles on the Deosai Plains and new mine-laying activities.

Aug 1998 - In August, the BIT and the Intelligence and Field Security Unit reported the presence of terrorists preparing to cross the LoC. Pakistani artillery flowed in as winter approached, a reversal of the normal practice.

Oct 1998 - Pervez Musharaff appointed COAS
By October, RAW was sufficiently concerned about developments to issue an express warning about the prospect of a "limited swift offensive", pointing in particular to the "constant induction of more troops from peacetime locations like Mangla, Lahore, Gujranwala and Okara into Pakistan-occupied Kashmir." Its assertion that a war was possible provoked an immediate challenge by the Director-General of Military Intelligence, and an inconclusive verbal discussion followed.

Nov 1998 - Northern Command, in its own internal assessments, recorded that November 1998 saw a three-fold increase in Pakistani troop movement in the Kargil sector when compared with November 1997. Vehicular movement doubled, while pack-animal movement increased nine-fold. As late as November 1998, the Intelligence Bureau's Leh station issued warnings that Pakistan was "training Taliban troops who were undergoing military training as well as learning the Balti and Ladakhi language." These irregulars, the warning stated, were likely to be inducted into the Kargil sector during April 1999.


1999



Feb 1999 - On February 9, 1999, troops of the 5 Para Regiment spotted movement on the top of Point 5770, a strategic height in the southern Siachen area on the Indian side of the LoC.

Feb 1999 - The Lahore Declaration was a historic declaration signed by the Indian Prime Minister, Mr. A. B. Vajpayee, and the Pakistan Prime Minister, Mr. Nawaz Sharif, in Lahore on February 21, 1999.

Mar 1999 - Again, on March 4, between eight and ten Pakistani soldiers were seen removing snow from a concrete bunker to the west of the summit of Point 5770. That evening, fire was exchanged over the area.

Strangely, the Siachen-based 102 Infantry Brigade removed the officer who had reported the intrusion, Major Manish Bhatnagar, not the Pakistani troops who had occupied the position. On the eve of Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee's visit to Pakistan, it is likely that India had no desire to initiate a bruising exchange of fire on Siachen. The 121 Brigade, which ought to have been told that Pakistan troops had demonstrated aggressive intent in an adjoining area, was not even informed of the development.

For one, despite both the flow of intelligence on possible infiltration in the Kargil sector, troops were actually pulled out from frontline positions. Soon after the loss of Point 5770, 9 Mahar Regiment was removed from its defensive positions along the Yaldor Langpa stream and stationed at a rear position near Leh. The 26 Maratha Light Infantry, which protected the crucial infiltration route from Mashkoh to Dras, was also pulled off forward duties.

Despite the summary removal of approximately a quarter of its troops, there is evidence to show that 121 Brigade did act. Troops were withdrawn from the Mashkoh area for just 80 days in the winter of 1999, down from 177 days in 1997 and 116 days in 1998. Yaldor was left undefended for 64 days from February to April, where troops had been withdrawn for 120 days in 1997 and 119 days in 1998. Kaksar, another key area, was undefended for just 38 days, where it was left open for over 200 days in previous years.


April 1999

April 11 - India says it has successfully test-fired a longer-range model of its Agni ballistic missile.

April 14 - The AIADMK withdraws support from the ruling coalition. President K.R. Narayanan asks the government to seek a confidence vote in parliament.

April 17 - India's 13-month-old BJP-led government falls after losing a confidence motion by just one vote. This may have been a trigger for Pakistan to be aggressive in Kargil

April 26 - India's parliament is dissolved and early elections are called. This may be one of major reason for the Pakistan Military to start the aggressive operation in Kargil.

Why was it that commanders in Leh and Srinagar were so slow to respond not just to the intelligence warnings that were available, but to the growing worries of their own subordinates?

General Malik argued that no troops were withdrawn by XV Corps from 3 Infantry Division's area of responsibility. This is, without dispute, true, since 9 Mahar and 26 Maratha battalions remained around Leh. Yet, General Malik's letter does not explain why General Budhwar chose to pull back soldiers needed to guard the LoC to rear positions when both intelligence warnings and field commanders believed threat levels were escalating.

General Malik also pointed out that the headquarters of 70 Infantry Brigade was inducted into the Dras area in October 1998, suggesting that the Army was indeed taking the warnings it received seriously. However, he omitted to mention the critical fact that only its headquarters' staff, not the fighting force, had been deployed when fighting broke out in May 1999.

With a dissolved parliament confrontation in the border is usaully avoided.



May 1999


May 1999 - Chinese moves in LAC Ladhak
"Chinese had inducted one company in the area opposite Chantze, with the rest of the battalion waiting in the wings," Malik discloses in the book. He says it was not only at Kameng, but the Chinese army enhanced its level of activity along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Ladakh as well from where some of the forces had been thinned down to be redeployed in Kargil.

"This enhancement in PLA activities along the LAC coincided with the start of the conflict in Kargil" Malik says which at military level, indicated a demonstrative support to Pakistan. Malik says this ran contrary to Beijing's assertions in recent years that it was pursuing an independent foreign policy and that its relations with Pakistan would not be at the cost of India. The Chinese forces also made a show of force in Demchok, in eastern Ladakh, constructed a track from Spanggur to south end of Pangong lake and a track in Trigg heights. He says India also received intelligence reports that PLA's Director in the Department of Armament had visited Islamabad during the conflict to help Pakistan army overcome its critical deficiencies in conventional armament, ammunition and equipment.

This may be one of the reason for not sending aggressive rescue missions to bring back captured Indian battalions. With only a caretaker government in India running the show there was a serious situation of China and Pakistan together attacking India.

May 4 - Lt. Gen. Kishen Pal was on leave in Delhi on May 3 to attend to his wife's surgery. When he got word of the sighting of the intruders at Banju, he ordered 3 Inf Div. to reinforce 121 (I) Bde and returned to Srinagar. Patrols were sent out starting from May 4, but due to weather conditions, they sighted the enemy only on May 7 and made contact on May 8 and came under heavy fire. By this time, all operational commanders were at their HQ, including the much reviled (in the press) Maj. Gen. Budhwar.


May 7 - Chinese Embassy Bombing in Kosovo - China US relationship problem. This bombing and an escalation is unexplainable. This event may have kept Chinese from entering the war in Kargil looking at the international publicity given to Chinese reaction.

May 11 - By May 11, the extent of intrusions were becoming clear even in the Dras sector further south. By May 12, the number of battalions in contact with the enemy were more than 5 and casualties were already taken. Lt. Kalia's patrol went out on 14 May in the Kaksar subsector and was captured on May 15.

May 16 - 6 choopers discovered in Kargil sector

May 24 - First report of infilterators.At a meeting of the Unified Headquarters in Srinagar on May 24, 1999, General Pal insisted that there "were no concentration of troops on the Pakistani side and no battle indicators of war or even limited skirmishes."

May 26 - India unleashes two waves of air strikes to flush out guerrillas on its side of a Kashmir ceasefire line, sharply raising temperatures in the region. The next day India confirms it has lost two fighter jets which Pakistan says they shot down.

May 28 - In Kashmir, a stinger missile brings down an Indian helicopter killing all on board. Lt. Gen. Kishan Pal, GOC 15 Corps, had accomplished the task of inducting 3 Bde HQ, 19 Inf. Battalions, 4 Regts of Field Arty, 2 Regts of Medium Arty into the sectors within a span of 26 days.


June 1999


June 12 - India and Pakistan hold "businesslike" talks over their Kashmir dispute but fail to resolve it; India says Pakistan tried to infiltrate the Turtuk Sector and puts the death toll at 267 Pakistanis and 86 Indians.

June 16, 1999 -The External Affairs Minister, Mr. Jaswant Singh has said his visit to Beijing has led to better understanding between India and China on regional and global issues, including the security perceptions of the two countries. Speaking to newspersons in Beijing at the end of his two day visit, he said new initiatives are already on the anvil.


July 1999


July 4 - India says it has recaptured the strategic Tiger Hill on its side of a military line of control in Kashmir.

July 9 - In Kashmir, the Indian army reports that it has all but ousted the infiltrators from the Batalik zone on India's side of the ceasefire line.

July 17 - India signals the end of the flare-up with Pakistan by announcing that all infiltrators have withdrawn from Indian-held Kashmir.

July 26 - India says its troops have cleared all infiltrators from their side of the Line of Control that divides Kashmir.

Oct 1999
07 October 1999 --Results show Mr. Vajpayee's National Democratic Alliance -- led by his Bharatiya Janata Party -- has passed the majority mark of 272 seats in India's lower house.

08 October 1999 -- Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee began the process of forming his new government Friday. Mr. Vajpayee's Bharatiya Janata Party and its allies won nearly 300 seats in India's 545-seat parliament -- soundly defeating the once-dominant Congress Party, which won just over 130 seats. Mr. Vajpayee and his allies say they have enough of a majority to serve a full five-year term in office.
Last edited by svinayak on 12 Jun 2009 21:07, edited 1 time in total.

ramana
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby ramana » 12 Jun 2009 21:06

I am finally getting to read the blow by blow account of the Delhi Sultanate fromits early years to the eclipse by the Chagatai Sultanate aka Mughal Empire. (Three volume hisotry by J.L. Mehta). The books have their own proportion of syncretic kool-aid but taking a cue from the "raja hansa" I am discerning the milk form water!.

What strikes me is the current setup in TSP with military as the primary power center harks back to the Mameluke era (1206-1290) introduced by Mohammed Ghori via Qutubuddin Aibek. The amazing thing is the one to one matching of the TSP elite groups to similar ones of that period.

The unfortunate thing for TSP people and India is these new Mamelukes are owned by Western and PRC interests and propped up.

What TSP needs is a Khilji revolution to change its power structure and then it might go on its own path.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby ramana » 12 Jun 2009 21:08

Please discuss Kargil in its thread for continuity. Thanks, ramana

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby KLNMurthy » 12 Jun 2009 22:26

amol.p wrote:

If taliban continues to blast so many mosques the day wont be far when country of islam purest of pure will have shoratge of mosques and they will have to beg arab frnds & unkil aid to build them......it may be islamist country without mosques........... :rotfl:


India can offer to send volunteers to build mosques

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby KLNMurthy » 12 Jun 2009 22:34

Sanku wrote:
rkirankr wrote:others can add more


Well we all agree that US needs its munna for a variety of reasons. Thats understood too.

Remember the so called extremists are its children too, with which it had no trouble at all doing biz with till even recently (post 9/11), all it cares are its interests met (such as US mainland and citizens safe and making money off the world) and they would happily let the beards run all over the place.

After all Saudi Barbaria is a little more than Afganistan without the chaos and with oil. Religious extremism does not bother US there. Neither does the fact that US is the main supporter of Israel seems to trouble the Beards in Saudi too much either.

So the bottom line is that religious extremism and US go together very well till there is win win -- which was pretty much the case with Af-Pak till recently. All US wants is that it has its preferred extremists in power. Which it already had in Pakistan and its assorted broods.

If US is fighting its own illegitimate offspring and weakening its own brood -- there can be only two options

1) US realizes truly that some of the extremists that are growing in power would not be their extremists come what may (like Iran) which I think is unlikely given the fact that all the extremists have been far well fed by Americans and they have been happy with the arrangement.
2) The other option is that there is a ingredient that we have missed so far. The situation has changed and is not win win for Americans and the beards any more.

What can have brought about 2?


america is not the enemy of extremists but extremists are america's enemy. Present action might stem from a realization of this fact and the need to do something about it.

also, we can't discount the possibility that blindness, confused thinking, susceptibility to lahori logic etc. are not sole property of GOI / Indian mainstream, americans can also be driven by it.
Last edited by KLNMurthy on 12 Jun 2009 22:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby kancha » 12 Jun 2009 22:36

OT but we have actually done that before

Link

Of course it would mean sending in the army to do the needful since they already have the required expertise :lol:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby KLNMurthy » 12 Jun 2009 22:41

kancha wrote:OT but we have actually done that before

Link

Of course it would mean sending in the army to do the needful since they already have the required expertise :lol:


brilliant. If our track 2 and GOI worthies had any imagination they would offer to do exactly that.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Anujan » 12 Jun 2009 23:17

Interesting article from Ayesha Siddiqa - one of the more credible ones. This one came out of the blue !

South Punjab ‘movement’ (By Ayesha Siddiqa)

MOHAMMAD Ali Durrani, the former information minister, recently went public with his plan to struggle for an independent Bahawalpur province....This time round, however, the idea has been floated by a man reputed for his deep connections with the establishment. The timing of the proposed movement also raises questions about what may happen in that part of the country.

Yet another possibility is that a movement for an independent province is meant to mask all other socio-political activities in the region so that these might go unnoticed by the rest of the country and the world at large. This refers to the various militant organisations that continue to operate in Bahawalpur division....Either the central or the provincial government has come up with the brilliant idea of supporting the Barelvi movement, including its armed wing


Didnt pick anything up on the English press about this. SSridhar may be able to comment about the Urdu press.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Prem » 12 Jun 2009 23:24

[quote="arunNOWSHERA: Three people have been killed in a blast in supply depot mosque in Nowshera cantt. According to reports, the blast occurred after juma payers. The roof of the mosque has been collapsed in the explosion. The injured have been rushed to CMH. Police have cordoned off the area
A hatrick completed with mosques suicide bombed on three consecutive Fridays.
Is there something in the IEDology of Pakistan that says that suicide bombing mosques on Friday leads to a better quality IED Mubarak?[/quote]


We at BR regret the minimum loss of life by the blasts blessed to bring Bahishat in Bakistan. (BIB)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby RamaY » 13 Jun 2009 00:12

RajeshA wrote:
Sanku wrote:Why are they FIGHTING each other? Whats making them.


Sanku ji,

It is simply a proxy war between USA and Al Qaida, and TSPA, the Islamic Whore, is caught in between the fronts, trying to keep Allah Tallah happy by doing namaz between her business hours.


The best analysis I have ever heard. Thanks for the clarity of thought RajeshA-ji.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby p_saggu » 13 Jun 2009 01:31

There are other players for sure in Pakistan.
India meeting zardari is part of the norm, where India traditionally keeps good ties with the democratic dispensation within Pakistan. The politicians in Pakistan are ever apprehensive of their army and India often helps out with critical info (As in BB's case info that Mooshy and Hamid Gul were out to assassinate her) I dunno how the politicians in Power in pakistan repay that debt, but I can guess.
No wonder the fauj in Pakistan is ever suspicious of its own politicians.

China for sure, in on Pak Fauj's side, and thereby on the side of the 'good taliban' and the 'Pakjab terrorists', whom the Chinese would want to stay and make merry in Pakistan, not enter xinjian.

No evidence yet that Russia has stepped in to repay the debt for the '80s ouster from Afghanistan, in fact last heard they were offering a transit route via CAS.

It is a bit like Beirut - everyone was having a go, different parts of the area were under different control. And It seems there is a grain of truth in the Pak-Fauj's statement blaming YYY for everything.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Arun_S » 13 Jun 2009 02:01

BBC: Pakistan's 'loose nukes'
Mark Urban | 19:15 PM, Thursday, 11 June 2009

Every now and then in this business someone in a position to know some enthralling secret passes information on to you, but you have no means of backing it up from other sources.

A few years ago, I was told about extraordinary US contingency plans to recover Pakistan's nuclear weapons, in the event of a collapse of law and order or an extremist coup in that country.

My informant gave me considerable detail. A super-secret agreement had been put in place early this decade following confrontations between India and Pakistan, two nuclear armed nations, over the disputed Kashmir region.

In order to stabilise an otherwise potentially highly volatile situation, Pakistan would tell the US where its nuclear weapons were.

India had been promised, that in the event of some Pakistani national cataclysm, the Americans would move in to remove the nuclear weapons.

The "loose nukes" nightmare would thus be avoided, and India would not be tempted into a first strike on Pakistan's atomic arsenal.

Sometimes stories, even from people who have held senior positions in Western governments, are a little too good to be true.

This one seemed to smack of Tom Clancy. Nobody would ever confirm it, and indeed some of those I checked it out with were openly sceptical. So I never ran the story.

Perhaps, after all, my original informant had been trying to plant it.

Now that the Obama administration is openly voicing its concern about the threat to Pakistan's nuclear weapons from rising militancy in that country, some aspects of that original tip off have come back into sharp focus.

In April, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton told a US senate committee, that the US spent a lot of time worrying about Iran getting nuclear weapons, but that Pakistan already had them, and that, "they've adopted a policy of dispersing their nuclear weapons and facilities".

In this phrase, "adopted a policy" I detected a possible inference that Pakistan had moved away from an earlier procedure of keeping their bombs in a small number of locations.

My further inquiries suggested this inference was deliberate.

So here at last was a measure of confirmation for something I had heard years earlier.

As to what exactly Pakistan had told the US in the time of president (and former army chief) Pervez Musharraf, we are once again in hazier territory.

We do know however that Mr Musharraf knew far more about the country's nuclear complex than any civilian leader has ever been allowed to learn.

We also know that in the first years after 9/11, there was intimate strategic co-operation with the US.

Of course any suggestion that the US might, in the past, have had plans to sweep up these weapons is politically sensitive in Pakistan.

The country revels in the status that its arsenal has given it. Any suggestion that there were plans to "secure" the bombs, even in a state of anarchy, would strike many Pakistanis as a US plot to emasculate an Islamic nuclear power.

Some feel the nuclear danger is being exaggerated in Washington in order to build support for the Obama administration's Af-Pak policy.

There may be something in this, given that the chance of Taliban storming some nuclear weapon storage point is remote.

But the real danger at present lies in subversion.

Pakistan's nuclear establishment produced the unhappy example of AQ Khan, who sold nuclear weapons technology to Libya, North Korea and Iran.

He is said to have acted from a combination of ideological and financial motives.

The chance currently is less of a complete collapse of order, the kind of circumstance under which possible secret plans of yesteryear would have come into play, but of one or more individuals working inside the system providing Islamic militants with nuclear materials or, sum of all nightmares, an entire atomic weapon.


I ask why will the horse eat dry husk when there is green grass everywhere?
A.k.a: Pakistani Army and Islamic militants are one and the same. WHy would one raid his own house, when he lives and shits in the same house everyday?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby p_saggu » 13 Jun 2009 02:40

Iran is also going to the polls.
If Mahmoud Ahmadinejad gets booted out tomorrow and Mir Hossein Mousavi comes in, Iran might do a U turn from being Anti-US to Pro-US.

Suddenly, India's highway into Afghanistan gets new attention.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby jrjrao » 13 Jun 2009 02:46

Oops, previous attempt created a new thread.

Good cartoon from the Pakis.

http://www.nation.com.pk/uploads/news_i ... n_5347.jpg

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby archan » 13 Jun 2009 05:21

ramana wrote:I am finally getting to read the blow by blow account of the Delhi Sultanate fromits early years to the eclipse by the Chagatai Sultanate aka Mughal Empire. (Three volume hisotry by J.L. Mehta). The books have their own proportion of syncretic kool-aid but taking a cue from the "raja hansa" I am discerning the milk form water!.

What strikes me is the current setup in TSP with military as the primary power center harks back to the Mameluke era (1206-1290) introduced by Mohammed Ghori via Qutubuddin Aibek. The amazing thing is the one to one matching of the TSP elite groups to similar ones of that period.

The unfortunate thing for TSP people and India is these new Mamelukes are owned by Western and PRC interests and propped up.

What TSP needs is a Khilji revolution to change its power structure and then it might go on its own path.

If you have time, please do elaborate, especially the correlation between the current powerfuls and the ones back them. Thanks.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby amdavadi » 13 Jun 2009 05:41

Who knows uncle is capable of pulling a election surprise just like it did it in India, Lebanon & Iran might be next.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Dipanker » 13 Jun 2009 06:35

p_saggu wrote:No evidence yet that Russia has stepped in to repay the debt for the '80s ouster from Afghanistan, in fact last heard they were offering a transit route via CAS.


Remember USA was the main player, in order to repay for 80's Russian would want USA to get really bogged down, but I don't think Russia is interested in doing that. Russia too realizes the Islamists menace.

It is a bit like Beirut - everyone was having a go, different parts of the area were under different control. And It seems there is a grain of truth in the Pak-Fauj's statement blaming YYY for everything.


grain of truth without grain of evidence?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby p_saggu » 13 Jun 2009 07:28

Its only a small grain. For sure, India's hand is in pakistan, but much to my dislike it is as miniscule as it gets. Not much more than RAW keeping its eyes and ears open.
India is not even giving 'political and diplomatic support' to the Balochis - high time it did.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby arun » 13 Jun 2009 08:55

The IEDology of Pakistan gets kick started this morning with a proverbial bang. IED Mubarak in Kohat :

Passerby killed, 8 security men hurt in Kohat bomb attack

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby arun » 13 Jun 2009 09:09

Proliferation worries and the missing Indian scientist

Saturday, June 13, 2009
By A Siddique

……………. The episode of the missing nuclear scientist poignantly brings out the security lapses in the Indian system of command and control; for security of personnel of the nuclear establishment is a part of the overall security matrix of the nuclear assets. US, too, recently reported a security breach of classified information related to its nuclear facilities. The emergence of these incidents and the manner of their being taken in easy stride stands in marked contrast to the prejudice faced by the Pakistan’s nuclear programme regarding the safety of its nuclear assets. :(( ………………

The News

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby sum » 13 Jun 2009 10:13

The episode of the missing nuclear scientist poignantly brings out the security lapses in the Indian system of command and control; for security of personnel of the nuclear establishment is a part of the overall security matrix of the nuclear assets

What sort of BS is this?

The poor missing scientist is a civilian reactor guy and also attached to the training department and not to any "classified" departments...

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby sanjaykumar » 13 Jun 2009 10:18

It is simply a proxy war between USA and Al Qaida, and TSPA, the Islamic Whore, is caught in between the fronts, trying to keep Allah Tallah happy by doing namaz between her business hours.

Yeah, only Uncle Sam feels betrayed when his whore proves to be less than faithful yet again.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby shiv » 13 Jun 2009 11:21

sum wrote:
The episode of the missing nuclear scientist poignantly brings out the security lapses in the Indian system of command and control; for security of personnel of the nuclear establishment is a part of the overall security matrix of the nuclear assets

What sort of BS is this?

The poor missing scientist is a civilian reactor guy and also attached to the training department and not to any "classified" departments...



No No. The Pakistanis are right.

Here is a link to Pakistan's robust control over nuclear secrets, command and control

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wciSG_3-x28

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby arun » 13 Jun 2009 11:36

X Posted.

All in a days work for the pure in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan..

Meanwhile what is particularly interesting about this news item is the allegation that the Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is deliberately censoring news of attacks on Christians:

Parcel Bomb injures 10 Christians in Bahawalpur district.

Hasilpur, Pakistan: June 13, 2009. (PCP) A Christian colony was targeted by parcel bomb thrown from a passenger train on Christian Colony near railway track in city of Hasilpur here today. According to reports 10 Christians were injured when parcel was opened by some children in a house which exploded with a big bang heard around city.

The injured were rushed to civil hospital where 4 are in very critical condition and deaths are feared. On night of June 12, 2009, Pakistani media reported a bomb blast in Hasilpur but news was blacked out in newspapers due to Christian being targets. The Pakistan government censors all news item which relates to target of Christians by Taliban or militant groups in Pakistan. ……............

Dr. Nazir S Bhatti, Chief of Pakistan Christian Congress PCC condemned attack on Christians in Hasilpur where Children were seriously injured.

“Like parcel bomb attack news censor the government is keeping secret the presence of Christian IDP,s in any refugee camp and still data is not issued on our demand” said Nazir Bhatti ………………..

Pakistan Christian Post

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Philip » 13 Jun 2009 12:34

The immediate denial from Pak about the CIA chief's statement,only underscores the chicanery of the TSP.Panetta wouldn't have made that statement without definite evidence.The stark fact is that Pak is the epicentre of worldwide Islamist terror,whether it is Al Q,the Taliban or assorted other groups like the LET/HUM or whatever,who are carrying out attacks against india and the world.Despite the solid evdience that the west has,the US continues to reward Pak.The time has come for this game of the "forked tongue",now that a non-white man is in the "White" House,to tear up the farce that has been going on for decades.Pak and its chief agents of terror wear uniforms and mollycoddling the TSP just doesn't work.

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCr ... SN11512545
CIA chief says bin Laden in Pakistan

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCr ... SN11512545

WASHINGTON, June 11 (Reuters) - CIA Director Leon Panetta said on Thursday the U.S. intelligence agency believes al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden is hiding in Pakistan and hopes joint operations with Pakistani forces will find him.

Asked whether he was sure that bin Laden was in Pakistan, Panetta told reporters: "The last information we had, that's still the case."

Bin Laden, who has eluded a U.S. manhunt since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, has issued audio and videotapes over the years demonstrating that he is still alive.

Finding bin Laden is "one of our major priorities," Panetta said. "One of our hopes is that the Pakistanis move in militarily, combined with our operations, we may be able to have a better chance" to find the al Qaeda leader, he said.

Panetta said al Qaeda "remains the most serious security threat" to the United States and its leaders, particularly in Pakistan, continue to plot against America.

There are "a number of people" on the ground in Pakistan providing intelligence on al Qaeda targets to the United States, he said.

The intelligence agency also is focusing on countries where al Qaeda might find safe haven, like Somalia and Yemen, Panetta said.

(Reporting by Tabassum Zakaria; Editing by Bill Trott)


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby arun » 13 Jun 2009 14:10

There are some truly medieval practices in vogue in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Marriages apparently have to be approved by the Head of the Panchayat with transgressors running the risk being of partly buried in the ground and stoned to death or throw to a pack of dogs that have been starved. Mercy in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan apparently means the victims are provided the choice of picking one of the two options.

Is it Islamically kosher in Pakistan to feed dogs?:

09:11 AM PST | Sat, 13 Jun, 2009 | Jamadi-us-Sani 19, 1430

Why have they not eaten for nine days?
By Nosheen Abbas

…………………. Former minister of fisheries Mir Manzoor Panhwar, sardar and head of the Panchayat (which makes Karo-kari decisions on daily basis) in Dharki Tehsil of Ghotki District, has declared a legally married couple as Karo-kari and demanded that either the couple and their one-year-old daughter be handed over to him for punishment either by ‘sangsar’ (the victim is buried up to his/ her chest under the ground and then stoned to death by members of the community) or by throwing them before starving dogs (kept unfed for eight days). The other option is for the accused Mohammad Ishaq’s brother Mohammad Essa to hand over his sister and daughter to the sardar as compensation. The sardar being a ‘kind’ person is offering them to choose how they would like to be punished.

Why has this couple been accused of Karo-kari? Because as the sardar of the village was to give his approval for the marriage even before the couples’ parents. …………………………............

Mohammad Ishaq and Sobia were legally married in Sindh High Court Karachi. Sobia’s father had suggested this way out as the sardar’s rules were known to all. But as soon as Mr Panhwar found out about this development he sent his posse of 70 thugs including DPO Iqbal Dara, ASI Irshad Rajpar and Gul Mohammad Dandu to punish the village. ……………..................

Dawn

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Lalmohan » 13 Jun 2009 15:10

Dipanker wrote:Remember USA was the main player, in order to repay for 80's Russian would want USA to get really bogged down, but I don't think Russia is interested in doing that. Russia too realizes the Islamists menace.



russia will seek concessions in europe, missile shield, nato, caucasus belt, etc. they will want to see the islamist menace crushed for their own benefit. the game has changed, its about oil and minerals, not about warheads and tanks

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Lalmohan » 13 Jun 2009 15:14

archan wrote:
ramana wrote:I am finally getting to read the blow by blow account of the Delhi Sultanate fromits early years to the eclipse by the Chagatai Sultanate aka Mughal Empire. (Three volume hisotry by J.L. Mehta). The books have their own proportion of syncretic kool-aid but taking a cue from the "raja hansa" I am discerning the milk form water!.

What strikes me is the current setup in TSP with military as the primary power center harks back to the Mameluke era (1206-1290) introduced by Mohammed Ghori via Qutubuddin Aibek. The amazing thing is the one to one matching of the TSP elite groups to similar ones of that period.

The unfortunate thing for TSP people and India is these new Mamelukes are owned by Western and PRC interests and propped up.

What TSP needs is a Khilji revolution to change its power structure and then it might go on its own path.

If you have time, please do elaborate, especially the correlation between the current powerfuls and the ones back them. Thanks.


i see where you're going with this ramana and i like it, however - some observations. current TSPA does not have any military edge unlike the turks, although if they still believe then that's as good. one could argue that the nominal overlordship of the caliph is replaced with that of Unkil/Dragon - but i think the jernails have fewer degrees of freedom than the old timers. otherwise the analogy is good

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby anupmisra » 13 Jun 2009 16:18

arun wrote:A Christian colony was targeted by parcel bomb thrown from a passenger train on Christian Colony


Talk about targets of opportunity.


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby CRamS » 13 Jun 2009 23:13

Guys:

While on the road yesterday, I heard on hour-long interview with Jihadi Sethi's son, Ali Sethi. He is an Uber RAPE, and his interview was just that, RAPE talk for a western audience. I posted the following comments in the comments section:

First of all, I assume Ali Sethi the son of Najam Sethi, the well-known Pakistani journalist?

Ali Sethi definitely does sound moderate, but as a keen observer of the rich, educated, suave, anglo-phile Pakistani elite like Ali Sethi, whose voices are often heard in the western media, I suspect there is an element of sophistry and duplicity in his pronouncements.

First of all, for all his protestations that majority of Pakistanis (especially from the Punjab region) are vehemently opposed to the Taliban, my suggestion to Ali would be to roll tape to pre-9/11, and witness the state of denial by the Anglo-phile elites like him at that time, namely, Pakistan has no control over the Taliban, there is no such thing as terrorism and extremism emanating from Pakistani soil; and this at a time, and which continues to this day, when Pakistan's state-sponsored Islamic terrorism against India was in full throttle. The bottom line is that the elites like Ali Sethis only started to speak out against the Taliban when the United States exerted tremendous pressure on Pakistan post 9/11. Likewise, to this day, most Pakistanis, moderate or otherwise, are either in denial or covertly and overtly support the likes of other extremist groups like Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT), who under the direct tutelage of Pakistan's army, intelligence (ISI), and suave political elites (who profess abhorrence to the Taliban), have caused colossal mayhem and mass slaughter in India. Witness the lack of any contrition or remorse among the Pakistani public at large to the recent Mumbai massacre (and countless others) perpetrated by the LeT and other assorted extremists under Pakistan's control. And this will not stop until either India brings to the fore the kind of pressure United States exerted, which sadly India is incapable of or unwilling; or Unites States sheds its brazen hypocrisy and holds Pakistan accountable (with conditions attached to the massive military/economical aid) for eliminating all kinds of extremists, not just the "bad" Taliban & Al Quaeda, but also those "good" terrorists like LeT.

Also, Ali Sethi did not offer a convincing rebuttal to one of the callers, who brazenly suggested that all of Pakistan's internal turmoils are the result of partition of British India in 1947, with all of the Moghul's grandiose achievements, including the Taj Mahal, and other symbols of Muslim glory like Kashmir etc going to India. It is the result this deep rooted cancerous thinking embedded in the Pakistani psyche, that Pakistan is unable to re-concise itself as a nation. It is always India’s fault. And this manifests in their use of terrorism as an instrument of state policy against India, to either unsettle India, or take India down in a nuclear holocaust. Moderate voices like Ali Sethi, if in fact they choose to be genuinely moderate, must find a way to rid themselves of the India-centric hateful obsession to irreversibly eliminate the extremist gangrene in their midst.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby alok_m » 14 Jun 2009 02:25

sorry if it has already been posted ..

http://thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=182694 editorial

Peshawar has plummeted into what seems like all-out war. Terrorists, struggling now to hold out against the military, seem to have turned to a 'soft' target, taking the war in Peshawar. The details of what happened at the home of the corps commander Peshawar, where a gun-battle was waged between guards and unknown assailants, are still unclear. But judging by the ferocity of the fire-fight, which left two dead and ignited a big fire opposite the residence, it would seem a full-fledged plan to attack one of the most heavily secured premises in Peshawar may have been made. The attack came within days of the audacious bombing of the Pearl Continental Hotel, located just metres away. Suddenly, there is once more a feeling that we are all under threat and that we can do very little to save ourselves. The confidence that had begun to seep back amid reports of decisive military victories in the north has begun to somewhat dissipate. Just the fact that terrorists were able to strike so sensitive a target shows they are still far from accepting that the end of their innings is in sight.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 14 Jun 2009 05:04

CRamS wrote:Guys:

While on the road yesterday, I heard on hour-long interview with Jihadi Sethi's son, Ali Sethi. He is an Uber RAPE, and his interview was just that, RAPE talk for a western audience. I posted the following comments in the comments section:


CRS, that was a good one you posted.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby RajeshA » 14 Jun 2009 05:16

President’s House budget up by 10%: Daily Times

Some people stay true to their reputation! :lol:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby RajeshA » 14 Jun 2009 05:34

Death of Mufti Naeemi... Editorial: Daily Times

Mufti Naeemi and his Ahle Sunnat clerics had no hesitation in condemning the pronouncements of Sufi Muhammad in Swat. The Deobandis, led by Karachi’s powerful Mufti Rafi Usmani, were not as forthcoming, thus putting on record the Barelvi-Deobandi split. When in 2005 Mufti Munibur Rehman and dozens of clerics produced a collective fatwa that the use of suicide-bombing against fellow-Muslims was not permitted in Islam, he received threats and there was severe criticism from the Deobandi clerical community. The hardness of the Deobandi school of thought springs also from non-acceptance of the Shia community as true Muslims. One bone of contention between the Barelvis and Deobandis is that the former don’t apostatise the Shia.

The power of the Deobandi clergy is owed to two jihads that the state fought in the 1990s. The “non-state actors” that went into Kashmir were trained in the camps of Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, but only the Deobandis qualified since the Deobandi-dominated Pashtuns of Afghanistan did not accept any Barelvi recruits. Their trained manpower is their street power against the Barelvis. Small-time clerics in the countryside have begun to lean in favour of the tougher Islam of the Deobandis because it gives them a sense of empowerment against the state, especially after the union of the Deobandi jihadi militias like Jaish-e Muhammad and Lashkar-e Jhangvi with the Taliban of Baitullah Mehsud and its patron Al Qaeda.

When Mufti Naeemi spoke against the Taliban he was careful to dub them not Taliban but “agents of America” and enemies of Islam; yet he must have known that the power of the Taliban lay in South Punjab from where teenaged suicide-bombers were taken by Baitullah Mehsud and trained by his infamous lieutenant Qari Hussain. The power of the Taliban lies not so much in the tribal areas as in Punjab — and that includes elements close to the madrassa of Mufti Naeemi in Garhi Shahu, Lahore. This power also lies in the well-endowed Deobandi madrassas of Karachi revealed to be over 3,000 with mostly Pashtun students from the FATA region. His animus against the jihad-promoting state was owed also to this unspoken factor

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby RajeshA » 14 Jun 2009 05:39

Internal war by Dr Hasan-Askari Rizvi: Daily Times

The killing of a recognised Islamic scholar shows that the Taliban are no longer restricting their attacks to government installations and personnel. They are targeting all those who openly oppose them.

Mufti Naeemi’s assassination may also cause Islamic sectarian tensions, which have been on the rise in the recent past, especially in areas like Dera Ismail Khan. These incidents appear to be intended to inflame sectarian tensions and thus create a host of new administrative problems, which in turn will divert the government’s attention away from Swat and the tribal areas.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby p_saggu » 14 Jun 2009 06:53

Was watching the DD videsh telecast, News on Pakistan.

One common chap from the streets of peshawar was lamenting - we have not lost these many people in '65 or '71. Then he was praying to god to deliver them all from this danger.

The son of the imam who was killed, said that his father laid down his life just as a colonel, :eek: major or captain of the Pak Army did and that he was a shaheed.

It seems that at least the people of SWAT valley, peshawar and the rest of the NWFP, are slightly more closer to the truth, about how bad violence is. Though they are still not convinced enough that violence is bad for all, believers or the kufr.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Guddu » 14 Jun 2009 07:21

alok_m wrote:sorry if it has already been posted ..

http://thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=182694 editorial

Peshawar has plummeted into what seems like all-out war. Terrorists, struggling now to hold out against the military, seem to have turned to a 'soft' target, taking the war in Peshawar. The details of what happened at the home of the corps commander Peshawar, where a gun-battle was waged between guards and unknown assailants, are still unclear. But judging by the ferocity of the fire-fight, which left two dead and ignited a big fire opposite the residence, it would seem a full-fledged plan to attack one of the most heavily secured premises in Peshawar may have been made. The attack came within days of the audacious bombing of the Pearl Continental Hotel, located just metres away. Suddenly, there is once more a feeling that we are all under threat and that we can do very little to save ourselves. The confidence that had begun to seep back amid reports of decisive military victories in the north has begun to somewhat dissipate. Just the fact that terrorists were able to strike so sensitive a target shows they are still far from accepting that the end of their innings is in sight.


pak is burning
http://www.longwarjournal.org/
Pakistani military, Taliban clash throughout the northwest
By Bill RoggioJune 13, 2009 3:01 AM

The fighting in Pakistan's insurgency-plagued Northwest Frontier Province and the neighboring tribal areas has intensified over the past 24 hours. The Pakistani military has launched attacks against Taliban hideouts in the tribal agencies of South Waziristan, Mohmand, and Bajaur, while heavy fighting was reported in the settled districts of Swat, Bannu, and Hangu.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby arun » 14 Jun 2009 07:56

Spot the difference between the Air Force of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and the Pakistani variant of the Islamic terrorist group, the Taliban.

To make things easier do note that the difference is not that the Pakistan Air Force likes demolishing schools whereas the Taliban does not.

PAF swings into action to avenge Naeemi’s murder

By Our Correspondents
Saturday, 13 Jun, 2009 | 05:20 PM PST |

TANK: Thirteen people, including militants and a few non-combatants, were killed when air force planes pounded militants’ positions in South Waziristan on Saturday, in response to the assassination of a revered religious scholar by the Taliban in Lahore on Friday, military and other sources said. …………................

The main target of the air strikes was in Makeen area, the headquarters of Baitullah Mehsud. Local people said five planes took part in the attack that started at around 8am.

The bombing flattened the building of a higher secondary school in Shakerkot area of Makeen. Militants had occupied the building and used it for their activities. ………………………

Dawn

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby arun » 14 Jun 2009 08:23

RajeshA wrote:Death of Mufti Naeemi... Editorial: Daily Times

............. When in 2005 Mufti Munibur Rehman and dozens of clerics produced a collective fatwa that the use of suicide-bombing against fellow-Muslims was not permitted in Islam, he received threats and there was severe criticism from the Deobandi clerical community. .............


Criticism of the escape clause filled 2005 fatwa opposing suicide bombing put out by Mufti Munibur Rehman was not limited clerics of the Deobandi School of Sunni Islam.

Fellow follower of the Barelvi School of Sunni Islam and the individual to whom this Daily Times editorial is dedicated to, Sarfraz Naeemi, was also critical of the fatwa opposing suicide bombing.

Reproducing a part of my earlier post in this thread containing what the suicide bombed Islamic Cleric Safraz Naeemi had to say on the Suicide Bombing fatwa.:

“The edict will benefit unbelief. The entire world knows the motives behind the edict. The greatest benefit will reach to the murderers of the Muslims - India, Israel and the US. At the moment, the Muslims are being massacred all over the world. Instead of issuing the edict of jihad against the butchers of the Muslims, Musharraf has bribed the ulema to get an edict against suicide attacks. The suicide attacks are not haram [forbidden in Islam] but are the supreme form of jihad. There should have been an edict against Bush - that whoever will kill him will go to the heaven."


Poetic Justice 8) .


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