Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby p_saggu » 15 Jun 2009 20:35

rkirankr wrote:I have few questions
Why can't we announce open moral support for few like balochs etc which may put pressure on pak to give up its claim on kashmir?

Because once this is announced, India will have to enter the game overtly. That is to be avoided at this point.
The Pak fauj is not really fighting the talibunnies, both forces have their fighting powers intact still. The only thing that is happening is the colorful IED Mubaraks happening daily in pakistani cities. This could still turn around very rapidly, if the US of A departs and leaves afghanistan in a power vaccum.

Basically the Pak Fauj has decided to pound some areas with artillery and indulge in some 'firefights', but at the same time keeping its Afghanistan sector strategic forces - the Taliban intact as a fighting force.

Pakistan will soon declare victory over the taliban, mop up all the Aid that it can get, and move into afghanistan when the US departs. Meanwhile its strategic forces for the India sector, the Pakjabi Terrorists are waiting in abeyance for orders to strike India.

So Balochistan's and Pashtunistan's time will come, but not just yet.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Dipanker » 15 Jun 2009 21:12

rkirankr wrote:I have few questions
Pak attacks India (non state or state it is all the same) on 26/11. India fumes and frets. Goes to unkil. Lot of noises no visible action from India. Suspends talks . Pak releases terror master mind responsible for 26/11. Obama comes but as suspected goes for tighter embrace of pakis.
Now under pressure from unkil who we may again talk to pakis and we are also reducing (or removing central forces from anti terrorists ops).

Who won this undeclared war and is it not this what paki wanted to achieve in the first place?

Ok India may or may not be supporting some elements in pak against pak establishment? Why can't we announce open moral support for few like balochs etc which may put pressure on pak to give up its claim on kashmir?


Pakis (establishment=TSPA) knew that sooner on later more likely sooner than later Amirkhan was going to twist their arm real hard to go after Good Talibans. Amerikhan was making lot of noise about giving Pakis $10 billion but not much to show for it in return. Fighting the Good and now the bad Taliban i.e. going after fellow Pakistanis does not bode well for Pakistan viability in the current form and accentuates the centrifugal forces within Pakistan, thus bringing Pakistan closer to disintegration.

TSPA engineered the 26/11 to start a war with India which would brought the WOT to screeching halt as TSPA would move all its forces to Indian border and thus avoid fighting to Good the Bad and the Ugly Talibans.

India by practicing restraint has alloweed the Pakis to stew in their own juices. Thus Pakis have been forced to fight the Good and the Bad and the Ugly Talibans which they wanted to avoid. Pakis are now in a totally unchartered water and most likely doomed to sink or have change their entire raisin dieter .


Makes sense?
Last edited by Dipanker on 15 Jun 2009 21:43, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Anujan » 15 Jun 2009 21:13

rkirankr wrote:I have few questions
Pak attacks India (non state or state it is all the same) on 26/11. India fumes and frets. Goes to unkil. Lot of noises no visible action from India. Suspends talks . Pak releases terror master mind responsible for 26/11. Obama comes but as suspected goes for tighter embrace of pakis.


rkirankr,

Pak cannot be dealt with as a "normal" state. I will illustrate four examples.

1. ABV goes to Lahore in a bus, it is all bhaichara, except that Jernail Mushy was mobilizing for Kargil, with or without Nawaz's knowledge (whether Nawaz knew or not is immaterial).

This is first point: Pakis cannot be negotiated with, because they are shameless liars with no shred of honor or ethics

2. The Lal Masjid cleric gets released (despite being the reason for so many deaths, civvies and khakhis). Sheikh Omar publicly challenges mushy (along the lines of "Lets see who lasts longer, you or I") and is still alive.

This is the second point: Pakis cannot be dealt with, because nobody is in control and everyone from Jihadis to Unkil is indulging in one massive gubo-fest

3. IG unconditionally releases POWs and gives back all the lands taken as a gesture of magnanimity. ZAB goes back, declares "great victory", starts anti-indian propaganda, the nuclear program and rearming.

This is the third point: All WKKs who talk of magnanimity, should read up on the consequences of all magnanimous action vis-a-vis Pakistan, right from MK Gandhi to I Gandhi. The pakis hate themselves so much, that any magnanimous action towards them makes them hate us even more.

4. Even after a tight Jhappad in '71, nobody in Pakistan ever questions the legitimacy or the competence of the Army ! and there were celebrations after Mushy took over !

This is the fourth point: People who wield violence are glorified in Pakistan. Whether or not they get Jhappads

What does that leave us with ? Talking does not work. Appeasement does not work. Overt Jhappad does not work. Nobody is in control.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby p_saggu » 15 Jun 2009 21:35

26/11 was akin to Saddam Hussein firing scud missiles at Israel during the first gulf war.
He wanted the Israelis to enter the war so that the coalition of nations, importantly the arabs would back out of attacking Iraq.
That move fell flat when Israel did not attack overtly. 26/11 fell flat when India did not attack overtly.
This does not mean India did not respond to repay pakistan's debt.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 15 Jun 2009 21:44


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby derkonig » 15 Jun 2009 21:44

p_saggu wrote:This does not mean India did not respond to repay pakistan's debt.

What has MMS done anyway?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Abhijit » 15 Jun 2009 21:53

one day pakistan will have to be turned into khandav prastha. but this khandav prastha is being protected by jarasandh (unkil) and kansa (china). these two will have to be dealt with first before we burn the kp to the ground.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby svenkat » 15 Jun 2009 22:33

I have a blasphemous question to gurus.This is prompted by something trivial.Indias inability to handle bouncers in T20 while Umar Gul took care of NZ.

Pakis are scum.We all know that.They do their terrorist stuff throughout India.But what if there is a sudden change of heart? a genuine 'taqqiya'.

Of late,there are no statements from Ashfaq Kayani.What if finally the Pakjabi has been made to understand his limitations by unkil?

The Taliban is a pak army creation.It can always be controlled by TSPA.Pakjab has infinitely more resources than Pashtunwa.The Sarkari Pashtuns also know that.We are not in the age of Ahmed Shah Abdali.The Pakjabis are infinitely stronger than pashtuns.

Kashmir will always simmer.It is Indias open society that will always face a million mutinies.What if Pakjabis have decided after GUBO sessions and a bit of tactical thinking that it is better to wind down terrorism in Waziristan,NWFP,Afghanistan and concentrate covertly in kashmir,assam,pilibhit,hyderabad or BD.

There will be a few IED mubaraks but nothing serious.The pashtuns also know their place in Pakistan.Have we factored this scenario?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby derkonig » 15 Jun 2009 23:15

Abhijit wrote:one day pakistan will have to be turned into khandav prastha. but this khandav prastha is being protected by jarasandh (unkil) and kansa (china). these two will have to be dealt with first before we burn the kp to the ground.


trouble is that you need Sri Krishna and not shikhandi for finishing off these characters.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Nihat » 15 Jun 2009 23:20

p_saggu wrote:26/11 was akin to Saddam Hussein firing scud missiles at Israel during the first gulf war.
He wanted the Israelis to enter the war so that the coalition of nations, importantly the arabs would back out of attacking Iraq.
That move fell flat when Israel did not attack overtly. 26/11 fell flat when India did not attack overtly.
This does not mean India did not respond to repay pakistan's debt.


Precisely , the State in which TSP is today - it may well not have been had we gone ahead with surgical strikes , national dis-unity , IED happy taliban and politically un-stable with plenty of regional issues to boot.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby John Snow » 15 Jun 2009 23:23

AOA
India should launch Peace effort on War footing, and use every International fora to publisize the effort. Also we should strongly suggest to TSP much to the delight of Unkil that TSP Army should talk to Taliban. That is is true Islamic nature of resolution of disputes. My Allah (PBUH) grant the Koranic wisdom on the believers.

This is Indias time to wage peace in TSP and help TSP to prosper and join the world of civilized nations. A strong neigbor of TSP is in the best interest of India ( aka Afghanistan). Pakistan be at Peice.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Anujan » 15 Jun 2009 23:41

Taliban head 'must be eliminated'

Pakistan's army chief has said the head of the Taliban in Pakistan "must be eliminated".

"They are not fighting for Islam. Pakistan was created in the name of Islam and we know how to protect it," he added. {Where is your beard you kuffar ? And you wear your khakhis too long.}

He later boarded an F-16 fighter jet to carry out an attack as part of the broader operation against the Taliban - a symbolic gesture as Gen Kayani is not a pilot. {He is planning to land on a carrier with "Mission accomplished" banner in the background}

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby ramana » 16 Jun 2009 00:13

krishnapremi wrote:I have a blasphemous question to gurus.This is prompted by something trivial.Indias inability to handle bouncers in T20 while Umar Gul took care of NZ.

Pakis are scum.We all know that.They do their terrorist stuff throughout India.But what if there is a sudden change of heart? a genuine 'taqqiya'.

Of late,there are no statements from Ashfaq Kayani.What if finally the Pakjabi has been made to understand his limitations by unkil?

The Taliban is a pak army creation.It can always be controlled by TSPA.Pakjab has infinitely more resources than Pashtunwa.The Sarkari Pashtuns also know that.We are not in the age of Ahmed Shah Abdali.The Pakjabis are infinitely stronger than pashtuns.

Kashmir will always simmer.It is Indias open society that will always face a million mutinies.What if Pakjabis have decided after GUBO sessions and a bit of tactical thinking that it is better to wind down terrorism in Waziristan,NWFP,Afghanistan and concentrate covertly in kashmir,assam,pilibhit,hyderabad or BD.

There will be a few IED mubaraks but nothing serious.The pashtuns also know their place in Pakistan.Have we factored this scenario?


Yes. All the covert strikes, CM strikes etc are good for concentrated assets confined to a few locations like in Middle East: Lebanaon or Bekaa Valley etc. In case of a dispersed situation like in TSP, such strikes are "brutus fulmen" (useless thunderbolts). The abduls will disperse and even if one gets his raisins a dozen will take their place. Recall uncle's hunt for AlQ 3.14..... The only effective strategy is to let them in and get them inside India a la Chakarvuyha style or as Mohd Ali used to say about a pestcide for roaches "Once they check in they cant get out." True this will get only the tier 1 &2 abduls but atleast some of them get it. But then the higher tiers are TSPA onlee.

Most important is to hold the fort and not let divisions take place.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby p_saggu » 16 Jun 2009 00:51

krishnapremi wrote:What if Pakjabis have decided after GUBO sessions and a bit of tactical thinking that it is better to wind down terrorism in Waziristan,NWFP,Afghanistan and concentrate covertly in kashmir,assam,pilibhit,hyderabad or BD.

That seems to be what is happening.
Unkil has put so much money in Pakfauj's hands, and squeezed their ball$, that they are now tired of the whole situation. They long for the day, when there would be no more IED Mubaraks in Pakistan. They long for the day when their Generals will have the Indian leadership fawning all over them again to ensure piss and tranquility. They long for the day when China and the West will pay them to keep poking India and keep it on its heels.

I feel that the US citizens are tired of their presidents intervening outside of their borders, and elected a dispensation which talked of reforms within US's borders. With that in mind, the tendency of the US administration would be to quickly wind down the terror threat to the US emanating from Pakistan, by co-opting the Pak Army and redirecting the terror forces elsewhere. This would be the easiest and the quickest solution to all their troubles and the re-begining of India's troubles.

India's POV gets fulfilled with a Peace move with Pakistan, that is internationally publicized, and the IED Mubaraks kept well within pakistan's borders, and minimizing the blow back on India.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby RamaY » 16 Jun 2009 01:57

krishnapremi wrote:What if Pakjabis have decided after GUBO sessions and a bit of tactical thinking that it is better to wind down terrorism in Waziristan,NWFP,Afghanistan and concentrate covertly in kashmir,assam,pilibhit,hyderabad or BD.


birather-Krishnapremi,

That was Pakistan v2.0 between 1971-2001. But that version was out of support after the new version Pakistan v3.0 was released on 9/11.

For reference purposes, Pakistan v1.0 expired when India liberated BD Land and captured 93,000 downhill-skiing-TFTAs.

Now the world is using Pakistan v3.0 SP2 (Musharraf was SP1). The current situation is the development process for Pakistan v4.0 and what we see now is traces of beta versions.

The $2.5B/yr question is, whether we see a Pakistan V4.0 or multiple new products such as Baluchistan V1.0, Sindh V1.0, Phaktunistan V1.0, and Pakjabistan V2.0 (V1.0 is the current Pakistan version).

What we, the SDREs, want is the world applies the "anti-trust" laws to TSP and break it into multiple pieces so they can be managed as different corporations, each one having their own "institutional" investors and board members.

What Bharat can do is to buy the POK business unit and merge it into Bharat.Gov (not a 100% owned subsidiery that we kept JK as) and have managing stake in atleast 2 breakaway entities.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Samay » 16 Jun 2009 02:26

krishnapremi wrote:I have a blasphemous question to gurus.This is prompted by something trivial.Indias inability to handle bouncers in T20 while Umar Gul took care of NZ.

Pakis are scum.We all know that.They do their terrorist stuff throughout India.But what if there is a sudden change of heart? a genuine 'taqqiya'.

Of late,there are no statements from Ashfaq Kayani.What if finally the Pakjabi has been made to understand his limitations by unkil?

The Taliban is a pak army creation.It can always be controlled by TSPA.Pakjab has infinitely more resources than Pashtunwa.The Sarkari Pashtuns also know that.We are not in the age of Ahmed Shah Abdali.The Pakjabis are infinitely stronger than pashtuns.

Kashmir will always simmer.It is Indias open society that will always face a million mutinies.What if Pakjabis have decided after GUBO sessions and a bit of tactical thinking that it is better to wind down terrorism in Waziristan,NWFP,Afghanistan and concentrate covertly in kashmir,assam,pilibhit,hyderabad or BD.

There will be a few IED mubaraks but nothing serious.The pashtuns also know their place in Pakistan.Have we factored this scenario?

IF ......... :|

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby RajeshA » 16 Jun 2009 02:29

krishnapremi wrote:Kashmir will always simmer.It is Indias open society that will always face a million mutinies.What if Pakjabis have decided after GUBO sessions and a bit of tactical thinking that it is better to wind down terrorism in Waziristan,NWFP,Afghanistan and concentrate covertly in kashmir,assam,pilibhit,hyderabad or BD.

There will be a few IED mubaraks but nothing serious.The pashtuns also know their place in Pakistan.Have we factored this scenario?


Assuming, that Pakistan does have a nuclear arsenal of their own over which they are lords, then such a direction change could be thinkable. After their nuclear testing after Pokhran II and some further developments in their technology, their acquisitions from China, etc. it is possible that the Pakistanis may have thought that a geography-based strategic depth is not necessary to keep their military balance with India. However they already enjoyed a good leverage in Afghanistan through the Taliban. I am not sure how far they considered Afghanistan as their strategic depth when it was run by the Taliban, especially as Taliban did not show much eagerness to show subservience towards Pakistan all the time.

Then came 9/11. At that point in time, the Pakistani establishment showed a surprising readiness to have their offspring lose power in Kabul, something they had planned for a long time and had also achieved. Of course turning their back on their children completely would have been suicidal. They had to be seen by the Taliban to be coming to their help in protecting them, giving them safe havens etc. simply to avoid all of them turn against them. Quetta and Waziristans help quell the anger to some extent. In the meantime, the Pakistan had again found a willing financier in Washington who was willing to be milked.

Israel is little tiny place, but its a country with nuclear weapons and a world class conventional military power. Does it need geographic strategic depth to keep its enemies at bay. So after the nuclear testing etc. etc. was the geographic strategic depth really that badly needed, especially as during Taliban's time in Afghanistan, Pakistan did not enjoy in any way a completely obedient surrogate there. Without a completely obedient surrogate and one which is liable to drastic mood swings could hardly have become a secure haven to retreat to. In peacetime, Pakistanis could not have built much strategic infrastructure there, and should a war start with India, with an ensuing closing of ranks between Afghan Taliban and TSPA, TSPA would not be able to create a second strike capability within a hostile period of a few weeks, so the Afghan Taliban could not offer much of a strategic depth. In a long drawn out war, of course, the Taliban fighters and more mountains would have been of help, but Indian Pakistan wars are not that dragged out.

After 9/11 the Taliban were only useful enough for showing it to the Americans that they need Pakistan. Beyond that the Taliban cannot offer Pakistan much.

So should the Pakistani establishment had thought on these lines, may be they some day arrived at the conclusion they do not need Taliban much. What use is the Taliban, when instead of helping the Generals line their pockets with greenbacks, they become a major challenge to them, and the Americans start thinking the Jernails are useless.

I do not think, the TSPA can put the Taliban back in their bottle. The monster will grow. The more you hit the HULK the stronger it gets. Either one has to finish the Taliban in one go, giving it a devastating blow or it will only grow stronger. In three years time, when the IDP camps start showing a real inclination, would it be clear whether the Pakis have again come out a tight corner, or whether they have screwed it big time.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby svinayak » 16 Jun 2009 02:54


Pakistan is on a suicidal course, says Imran Khan

http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20090614/88 ... e-say.html

Sun, Jun 14 02:51 PM

London, June 14 (IANS) Pakistan's cricketer-turned-politician Imran Khan has expressed fear that the ongoing military operation against the Taliban in Swat could backfire and fuel extremism and terror attacks in the country.

'Pakistan is on a suicidal course,' said Khan, the chairman of the Pakistan Tehreek Insaf (PTI) party was quoted by Online news agency Sunday. Pakistan was on a suicidal course from 1947

Talking to the Sunday Times, Khan pointed out that the launch of the operation coincided with President Asif Ali Zardari's visit to Washington in late April, after which the US agreed a five-year deal worth dollar 1.5 billion (pound 910m) a year.

'Was this operation to save the people of Swat or to get dollars from the Americans?
' he asked.



The former cricket captain insisted that Pakistan would never contain extremism as long as American troops remained across the border in Afghanistan. 'Hatred of America is much more than of the Taliban,' he said.

'How do we look after these refugees?' Khan asked. 'Already you see the anger. This is a very sorry chapter in Pakistan's history. 'I have never been so depressed in my life,' he added.

Jinnah was depressed even in 1947
-- Indo-Asian News Service

skp/tb


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Prem » 16 Jun 2009 03:00

Standing on our own feet ( Can beggar ever stop begging)

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=183035

In the national interest
Kamla Saddiqi
(First thing first Mian , Survival on Zakat is lawful for Arjals , Second Mian ji Bakistani Feet are in Standing Up Position whenever Donors wish to visit)

How difficult is it for a nation to stand on its own feet? We have examples around us in the form of India, China and Iran—all three our immediate neighbours. Economic strength has given them the courage and confidence to take a stand when it comes to their national interest. In Pakistan, the opposite seems to be the case.

We have a history of being led by dictators that are propped by American aid. It is somewhat ironic that American governments have been happy to bankroll our military leaders but were reluctant to help out our emerging democrats. And history tells us that it is our military “strongmen” that have bent more willingly when pressured from the outside.

Why is it that we as Pakistanis look at foreign help as some sort of recipe that is the cure for all our ills? This week, American legislators will give thumbs-up to yet another aid programme for Pakistan. Do we need this package? Granted that we are once again finding ourselves in an economic mess, but is there no other way we can pull ourselves out of it? Also, will we be told of the strings attached to this?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Prem » 16 Jun 2009 03:06

And Here Cometh the Beggar,legs Standing Up.

The cost of war

ToLet Masood
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=183032

What is however seldom realised internationally or by domestic audience that the cost of war that Pakistan had to bear and continues to bear is many times more that the aid that it has received so far. Institute of Public Policy of Beacon House National University in its recent annual report has come out with a comprehensive study of the state of economy in which the economic cost of the war on terror has been estimated since 2004-05 to be $31.4 billion, far in excess of the assistance of $1.7 billion annually.

The indirect costs include drop in investment, inability to proceed with development work, loss of production time, increase in employment and high cost of supporting displaced persons. As risk has increased so have insurance and other overheads costs. Pakistan has suffered from flight of capital, closure of business and industrial activity and stock market has taken a deep down turn. Then there are opportunity costs as well. Pakistan’s fight against insurgents has political fallout and the nation is suffering psychologically. Political and social costs have been even higher. This conflict has ruptured the society and given rise to a deep polarisation between ethnic groups, widened the chasm between liberals and conservatives and between the religious and secular groups. It has pitched one religious sect against another and has also introduced an element of class warfare. This insurgency has also exposed the hypocritical side of the Islamic state as it could not effectively neutralise the militants at the ideological and ethical level and had to seek support of the military. This was despite the fact that the militants were presenting the most warped and distorted interpretation of Islam.
( How many interpretations are out there after 60 years of magazkhachpi)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby svinayak » 16 Jun 2009 03:33

http://www.fatf-gafi.org/dataoecd/28/43/40285899.pdf
http://in.news.yahoo.com/137/20090612/7 ... se-mi.html

FACTBOX - Networks, not attacks, pose militants' main cost

Fri, Jun 12 09:30 PM

Devastating bomb attacks on civilians are inexpensive to mount for militant groups, whose main cost is simply keeping their networks running between operations, according to an international anti-money laundering body.

A February 2008 report by the 34-nation group, the Financial Action Task Force, cited the following direct operational costs of big attacks.

ATTACK DIRECT COSTS

Event Date Estimated cost

London transport system attacks Jul 05 8,000*

Madrid train bombings Mar 04 $10,000

Istanbul truck bomb attacks Nov 03 $40,000

Jakarta JW Marriot Hotel bombs Aug 03 $30,000

Bali bombings Oct 02 $50,000

USS Cole attack Oct 00 $10,000

E. Africa embassy bombs Aug 98 $50,000

*Pounds sterling

Such costs -- purchases of vehicles, improvised bomb-making components, maps, surveillance material -- "are often very low relative to the damage they can yield".

COST OF 9/11

According to the U.S. 9/11 Commission Report of 2004, the 2001 attacks on the United States cost somewhere between $400,000 and $500,000 to execute.

INDIRECT COSTS

"Maintaining a terrorist network ... between attacks represents a significant drain on resources."

These costs are:

Salaries/subsistence and communications

Individuals need to cover day-to-day expenses and perhaps also those of dependants. A cell will also need to communicate with its members and perhaps a parent network.

Training, travel, and logistics

Training is required in terms of ideological indoctrination and practical skills, and this often requires travel and procurement of false documents.

Shared funding

Where a cell is part of a network or shares a common goal or ideological or religious background with another cell or network, it may be called on or feel compelled to provide financial support.

Broad organisational needs

Maintaining a network or a specific cell to provide for recruitment, planning and procurement between attacks represents the most significant drain on resources. Beyond funds needed to finance attacks and provide direct operational support, organisations need money to develop a supporting infrastructure, recruit members and promote their ideology.

Militant networks often use compromised or complicit charities and businesses to support their objectives.

There is often a public relations and media operations arm that sustains a militant ideology. Groups such as al-Qaeda are prolific producers of videos and other messages distributed on the Internet dedicated to recruitment and propaganda.

HOW FUNDS ARE RAISED

Legitimate sources

Militant groups receive considerable support and funding from and through otherwise legitimate sources including charities, businesses, self-funding from employment, savings, and social welfare payments - methods that would not otherwise raise concerns because they appear lawful.

Crime

Groups are turning increasingly to alternative sources of financing, including crimes such as arms trafficking, money laundering, kidnap-for-ransom, extortion, racketeering, and drug trafficking. Militant use of criminal activity to raise funds ranges from low-level scams such as credit card fraud to serious organised crime.

Safe havens/failed states/state sponsors

Safe havens and wider cases of weak jurisdictional control, and state tolerance or support of terrorist organisations, give militants wide scope to raise, move and use finance.

HOW FUNDS ARE TRANSFERED

There are three main methods: Use of the financial system (for example money remittance companies), use of the international trade system (for example over- and under- invoicing) and physical movement of money (for example through the use of cash couriers). FATF says militant groups use all three methods to move money for the purpose of disguising its origins and integrating it into the formal economy.

See full FATF report at

http://www.fatf-gafi.org/dataoecd/28/43/40285899.pdf

(Source of attack cost estimates: All statistics are from the August 2004 report of the U.N. Monitoring Team Report on al-Qaeda and the Taliban, apart from the figure for the London attacks provided by the UK Home Office (interior ministry)



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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby MurthyB » 16 Jun 2009 04:00

Imran Khan is wrong. Suicide and being suicidal are forbidden in Islam. Anyone who does these kinds of things is not muslim. Since Pakistan was created for muslims, and is an Islamic state, it is not suicidal. Q-e-duh!

Acharya wrote:

Pakistan is on a suicidal course, says Imran Khan

http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20090614/88 ... e-say.html

Sun, Jun 14 02:51 PM

London, June 14 (IANS) Pakistan's cricketer-turned-politician Imran Khan has expressed fear that the ongoing military operation against the Taliban in Swat could backfire and fuel extremism and terror attacks in the country.

'Pakistan is on a suicidal course,' said Khan, the chairman of the Pakistan Tehreek Insaf (PTI) party was quoted by Online news agency Sunday. Pakistan was on a suicidal course from 1947

Talking to the Sunday Times, Khan pointed out that the launch of the operation coincided with President Asif Ali Zardari's visit to Washington in late April, after which the US agreed a five-year deal worth dollar 1.5 billion (pound 910m) a year.

'Was this operation to save the people of Swat or to get dollars from the Americans?
' he asked.



The former cricket captain insisted that Pakistan would never contain extremism as long as American troops remained across the border in Afghanistan. 'Hatred of America is much more than of the Taliban,' he said.

'How do we look after these refugees?' Khan asked. 'Already you see the anger. This is a very sorry chapter in Pakistan's history. 'I have never been so depressed in my life,' he added.

Jinnah was depressed even in 1947
-- Indo-Asian News Service

skp/tb


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby svinayak » 16 Jun 2009 04:43

http://abcnews.go.com/International/Sto ... 882&page=4
Take Out Your Maps

A planned city built in the 1960s, Islamabad is a strikingly modern South Asian metropolis. Broad streets lie along a spacious, uncluttered grid filled with trees. Nearby, its sister city, Rawalpindi, is more a reflection of old Pakistan but serves as its protectorate: It is the headquarters of the world's seventh-largest army.

One of the biggest houses in "Pindi" goes to the chief of Army staff. Clustered near the military compound are tony neighborhoods where retired generals live. Colonels, majors, and businessmen mingle in upper-middle-class enclaves, and farther away rise the starter homes of the lieutenants.

The elite area features a commercial center with a movie theater showing, at the moment, "Fast & Furious IV," as well as a big-box store and a McDonald's. Sitting on a bench, a young Pakistani businessman dressed in jeans laughs at the question of a Taliban takeover. "No," says Omar Ali with incredulity. "Do you think the Taliban are going to take over Washington?"

If it sounds as if Mr. Ali lives in a world far removed from the Taliban, it's because he does, literally and figuratively. The drive from McDonald's to the mountain hamlets of Buner, where the Taliban are trying to gain a sandal hold, takes about four hours. It may be 60 miles as the drone flies, but it's double that by pickup truck.

The M1 Motorway heading out of the capital starts like an American Interstate highway – three divided lanes in each direction, manicured on and off ramps. Take an exit toward Buner and soon the pavement grows intermittent, as does the sight of any women in public view.

Eventually, a bridge spans the rock-strewn Indus River. Historically, this has marked a significant divide – and serves as a reminder of how geography and history intrude on the Taliban. "West of the Indus [versus] East of the Indus – the cultures, attitudes, and linkages with Afghanistan are very different," says General Masood.

West was frontier and Pakistan still calls it that: the North West Frontier Province. In this direction, the land rises toward Afghanistan, and the lives get harder as mountains tear apart arable land and communities divide into insulated tribes.

The worldview of the Taliban comes from West of the Indus. For them, the plains represent exposure. "The Taliban have been able to operate in certain [mountainous areas] because of the terrain and the sympathy factor," says Rifaat Hussain, a military expert at Quaid-i-Azam University in Islamabad. "But the moment they begin to move out of the hideouts, they are exposed. If you have 100 truckloads of Taliban on the Peshawar Highway, all you need is two helicopter gunships" to wipe them out.

Coming down from the hills also would expose the Taliban to a more secular, urban world that views their way of life as something on the cover of National Geographic. Or, as a colleague of Professor Hussain puts it: "They are a bunch of mountain barbarians."

The Ethnic Fire Wall

One area halfway between Islamabad and Taliban country looks like the California Central Valley, with donkey carts. The roads in the area, the Haripur district, are lined with eucalyptus trees, agricultural fields tumble off in the distance, and brickmaking kilns puff smoke from stout stacks.

The Taliban have threatened to come to this area to free comrades held in prison. As a result, officials mobilized extra security forces and intensified intelligence activity. But Haripur's best defenses lie with the people. "There is absolutely no support for Taliban in this district," says Yousaf Ayub Khan, Haripur's nazim, or ruler. The main reason: This is non-Pashto country.

More than 90 percent of residents speak Hindko, as opposed to Pashto, the language of the Pashtun people – and the Taliban. It's a common saying these days in Pakistan that all Taliban are Pashtuns, but not all Pashtuns are Taliban.

Haripur sits along a vast ethnic fire wall against further Taliban conquests. To the north and west are Pashtun lands, to the east and south – toward Islamabad – other groups dominate. "Pashtun areas have always been very conservative and religious, so they become easy prey," says the nazim, who also happens to be Pashtun. "People are docile here [and] their thinking is more toward Islamabad."

The grievances that the Taliban exploit, such as unemployment and tribal feudalism, don't exist as much here. Schools poke out from nearly every alley of Haripur city, and the district – with more than 1,000 private academies – is among the most educated in the country. Lush farmland and an industrial center support relative prosperity.


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby shiv » 16 Jun 2009 07:01

Acharya wrote:The worldview of the Taliban comes from West of the Indus. For them, the plains represent exposure. "The Taliban have been able to operate in certain [mountainous areas] because of the terrain and the sympathy factor," says Rifaat Hussain, a military expert at Quaid-i-Azam University in Islamabad. "But the moment they begin to move out of the hideouts, they are exposed. If you have 100 truckloads of Taliban on the Peshawar Highway, all you need is two helicopter gunships" to wipe them out.

Coming down from the hills also would expose the Taliban to a more secular, urban world that views their way of life as something on the cover of National Geographic. Or, as a colleague of Professor Hussain puts it: "They are a bunch of mountain barbarians."


Is this guy talking about pious fellow Muslim Pakistanis or dirty kafir Indians? Some one please tell me. :D

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby pgbhat » 16 Jun 2009 07:16

Acharya wrote:Coming down from the hills also would expose the Taliban to a more secular, urban world that views their way of life as something on the cover of National Geographic. Or, as a colleague of Professor Hussain puts it: "They are a bunch of mountain barbarians."

Once again it will be proven that Taliban==TSPA. :rotfl:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby arun » 16 Jun 2009 07:47

The last two paragraphs of an article in Calcutta’s Telegraph.

The International Republican Institute survey was posted earlier on BR. The survey can be revisited at this link.:

Tuesday , June 16 , 2009

WHAT PAKISTANIS THINK

Pakistan’s opinion is divided on all questions facing it

Writing on the wall - Ashok V. Desai

…………… An overwhelming 78 per cent refused to believe that the terrorist attacks in Bombay were made by Lashkar-e-Toiba; 42 per cent said the attacks were organized by India itself, and 20 per cent suspected Americans. But 50 per cent said that the use by terrorist organizations of Pakistan as a base to attack India from was a serious problem; another 29 per cent thought it was a problem. A third hated India; another 19 per cent had a somewhat unfavourable opinion of India. But surprisingly, 45 per cent had a favourable opinion.

The IRI survey bears out our preconceptions about Pakistanis as religious zealots and India-haters. But that is only if we look at the majority. What I find remarkable is the pronounced division of opinion on all questions facing Pakistan. This is why I think that the naively negative policy that Manmohan Singh has followed on Pakistan has reached the end of the road, and that a more nuanced policy is worth trying. Opening the border to greater trade can do no harm; a billion dollars or two of aid for spending on Indian goods may create a bit of goodwill. There are 14 or 18 crore Pakistanis over there (no one knows since there has been no census for decades); it is worth making a few friends out of them. And we do not have to depend on Research and Analysis Wing to find potential friends; the Pakistani press is a serviceable mirror of the Pakistani society. What would help us greatly is if a few million Indians learnt Urdu and started reading Pakistani newspapers. That would give Pakistan a new source of export earnings, and us a valuable source of information on the country. We should even give some Pakistanis asylum once in a while when they get into trouble at home; who knows, they may rise to power one day.

Telegraph

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby shynee » 16 Jun 2009 08:11

Decisive action against Baitullah
Though the military has already carried out a build-up of forces in the Waziristan area and reinforcements are being sent to the new frontline, it can still take some time in launching a full-scale ground offensive. More importantly, the army is already fighting on a number of fronts and it cannot afford to spread its forces thin. The battle for Swat is far from over even if the troops now control the major population centres and the main roads and supply lines. Taliban militants after having retreated from Mingora and other big towns and villages are now resorting to guerrilla strikes, ambushes and improvised explosives device (IED) attacks. They have attacked the troops in Kabal, Charbagh and the Matta area, including their former stronghold Peochar where the Pakistan army airdropped its commandoes to secure mountain peaks and escape routes.

The government-backed lashkar, or armed force, in Dir Bala is struggling to defeat the outnumbered and besieged pro-Taliban villagers in Dhog Darra after having pushed them towards their last mountain hideouts. In Dir Payeen, the militants remain defiant despite suffering losses. They are still able to launch attacks on security forces' outposts and convoys and copy the Taliban from Swat, Bajaur, Mohmand and Darra Adamkhel in blowing up government schools.

With the Malakand division military offensive entering a decisive phase, it was surprising that the armed forces opened a new front in the Frontier Region Bannu to punish the militants in the Janikhel and Bakkakhel areas for assisting Baitullah Mehsud's men in kidnapping students of Cadet College, Razmak, and also indulging in roadside bombings and kidnappings. The action provoked Hafiz Gul Bahadur, the commander of the North Waziristan militants, to send hundreds of his fighters to the Janikhel and Bakkakhel areas to stop the advancing army troops. Though he hasn't formally ended his peace accord with the government, it will come under strain as the two sides face off in the wilderness of the Frontier Region Bannu, which serves as the entry-point to North Waziristan. It can be a matter of time before their peace agreement meets a familiar fate and ends without any formal announcements. This can push Hafiz Gul Bahadur to join forces with Baitullah Mehsud and form a formidable front to stop the armed forces from regaining control of the two Waziristans.

In Orakzai Agency, the air force was used again to strike at TTP targets, but there were reports of a number of civilian casualties and displacement. There was also 'collateral damage' in neighbouring Hangu district, where respected religious scholar Maulana Mohammad Amin was killed in an airstrike along with his nephew. Men and women and children belonging to the family of JUI-F head for Hangu, Maulana Din Asghar, were also killed in the air raid. Attiqur Rahman, the provincial assembly member from Hangu affiliated to former interior minister Aftab Sherpao's PPP-S, has alleged that the police high-ups in Kohat provided wrong information to the security forces about the presence of militants in the madressah that led to the aerial bombardment and death of Maulana Amin and other innocent civilians.

By fighting on so many fronts, the security forces already appear over-stretched. This will increase dependence on air power, which invariably causes civilian casualties and displacement and isn't the most effective way to fight shadowy and fast-moving guerrilla fighters. Without forces on the ground to clear and hold captured locations, there is always the possibility that the militants may stage a comeback. There have already been two major military operations against Baitullah Mehsud in South Waziristan and in both cases the government and the army had to accept his power and make peace deals with him in February 2005 and January 2009 and agree to an exchange of prisoners and compensation for losses suffered by his tribe. Baitullah Mehsud is the most powerful Pakistani Taliban commander. He is capable of carrying out suicide bombings and terrorist attacks in all major cities of Pakistan, kidnapping important people and using them as bargaining chip, and activating fighters from TTP units all over NWFP and his jihadi allies in Punjab and Sindh to put pressure on the government to once again seek peace with him. He has done this in the past and will try to do so again.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby NRao » 16 Jun 2009 08:13


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Chandragupta » 16 Jun 2009 08:22

What would help us greatly is if a few million Indians learnt Urdu and started reading Pakistani newspapers. That would give Pakistan a new source of export earnings, and us a valuable source of information on the country. We should even give some Pakistanis asylum once in a while when they get into trouble at home; who knows, they may rise to power one day.


What the F?! :-o

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby arun » 16 Jun 2009 08:26

X Post.

Pakistan caught red-handed supplying weapons to terrorists:

Ex-Bangla intel chief confirms ISI link to '04 ULFA arms haul

Posted: Monday , Jun 15, 2009 at 1325 hrs IST

Dhaka:

A long-suspected nexus between Pakistan's ISI and insurgency groups active in India's northeast have come to light with detained former Bangladesh intelligence chief confirming Islamabad's spy agency's link to the sensational supply of arms to ULFA in 2004.

Retired Wing Commander Shahabuddin, an ex-director of the National Security Intelligence told investigators that detained suspects of the haul had several talks with ISI officials working with Pakistan's High Commission in Dhaka ……………….

Another ex-chief of NSI, retired Brigadier General Abdur Rahim, who is also in the custody of security agencies had earlier also revealed the ISI link to the case…………….

Indian Express

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby shiv » 16 Jun 2009 08:49




So there is a visible split in the Pakistani establishment.

Here is what Hamid Gul says of Mehsud calling him an ally
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw3VqBt7 ... annel_page

And here Mehsud is a RAW agent: (Zaid Hamid)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2yDlN5ldFQ

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 16 Jun 2009 09:54

From the Najam Sethi edit of today . . .

After pressure from the United States, New Delhi seems to be agreeable to “thinning” its troops’ strength in Kashmir, thus allowing the Pakistan Army to mobilise more effectively in South Waziristan. President Asif Ali Zardari’s meeting in Moscow with the Indian Prime Minister, Dr Manmohan Singh, during the sessions of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) could clinch the matter . . .

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby RajeshA » 16 Jun 2009 12:23

Pak might soon move troops from border with India: PTI

NEW YORK: Movement of troops might soon be seen on Pakistan's eastern border with India, powerful US senator John Kerry has said, hoping it would result in reduction of tension between the two neighbours.

Addressing New York-based think-tank the Council on Foreign Relations, Kerry, Chairman of the powerful Senate Foreign Relations Committee said Islamabad might move some troops from its border with India to the "guts of Pakistan".

"We just had an election in India. We are just in a position to begin to, hopefully, move some troops back from the border, shift some troops into the guts of Pakistan; hopefully, that can make a difference," Kerry said.

Kerry, who was addressing the issue of climate change, also mentioned the situation in India and Pakistan.

Last week the Special US Envoy for Pakistan and Afghanistan Richard Holbrooke had said that Pakistan has moved some of its troops from on its border with India to its western border.

Pakistan is in the middle of a massive military offensive against the Taliban in the North West Frontier Province and is planning to extend the operation to Taliban stronghold of Waziristan.

US has asked Pakistan to move its troops from the east to the west and the northwest of the country to combat terrorism.


It is wrong for India to accommodate US concerns on this issue. It will be extremely wrong for India to decrease our troop strength on the border to allow Pakistani Troops to move back into Pushtun areas to commit more genocide against the Pushtuns and to harm the only force, the TTP, that has shown the guts to stand up to the Terrorist Army of Pakistan.

We should be willing to reduce our troops on the border, only if Pakistan shows some willingness to move against the Pakjabi Terrorists, LeT, JeM, LeJ, SeS, etc. And even if we want to help the US on this, can US ensure that TSPA is also moving against Haqqani Group, and Mullah Omar, and earnestly.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 16 Jun 2009 12:25

Some insights on the FATA situation

. . . it was surprising that the armed forces opened a new front in the Frontier Region Bannu to punish the militants in the Janikhel and Bakkakhel areas for assisting Baitullah Mehsud's men in kidnapping students of Cadet College, Razmak, and also indulging in roadside bombings and kidnappings. The action provoked Hafiz Gul Bahadur, the commander of the North Waziristan militants, to send hundreds of his fighters to the Janikhel and Bakkakhel areas to stop the advancing army troops. Though he hasn't formally ended his peace accord with the government, it will come under strain as the two sides face off in the wilderness of the Frontier Region Bannu, which serves as the entry-point to North Waziristan. It can be a matter of time before their peace agreement meets a familiar fate and ends without any formal announcements. This can push Hafiz Gul Bahadur to join forces with Baitullah Mehsud and form a formidable front to stop the armed forces from regaining control of the two Waziristans.


If and when Gul Bahdur does it, will Maulvi Nazeer from South Waziristan be far behind ? They both hunt in pair. They both have formed a shura, Shura Ittehad-ul-Mujahideen, with Baitullah about four months back to fight the 'Pakistani Army' and overcome the ‘divide and rule’ policy of the Pakistani government which they blamed for “more losses to mujahideen than the US". It is getting interesting.

There have already been two major military operations against Baitullah Mehsud in South Waziristan and in both cases the government and the army had to accept his power and make peace deals with him in February 2005 and January 2009 and agree to an exchange of prisoners and compensation for losses suffered by his tribe. Baitullah Mehsud is the most powerful Pakistani Taliban commander. He is capable of carrying out suicide bombings and terrorist attacks in all major cities of Pakistan, kidnapping important people and using them as bargaining chip, and activating fighters from TTP units all over NWFP and his jihadi allies in Punjab and Sindh to put pressure on the government to once again seek peace with him. He has done this in the past and will try to do so again.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 16 Jun 2009 13:59

'Safe haven' allowed Taliban to grow stronger: Adm. Mullen

Taliban against whom US-led forces are fighting in Afghanistan grew "more effective" in the last three years because they had "safe haven" in the tribal areas of Pakistan to "rest" and "train" before returning to fight, US' top military commander has said.


Adm. Mullen is belittling Pakistan's efforts in providing 'safe haven' across the length and breadth of Pakistan. The MMA regime in NWFP, which had the benign support of Musharraf up to circa 2007 helped the matters for the Taliban significantly.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 16 Jun 2009 14:05

US Administration allowed Pakistan to acquire nuclear weapons: Congressional Hearing

Excerpts
"As a CIA intelligence officer and later in the Pentagon, Rich Barlow learned that top US officials were allowing Pakistan to manufacture and possess nuclear weapons," Danielle Brian, executive director, Project on Government Oversight (POGO), told a Congressional hearing last week.

"Barlow also discovered that US officials were hiding these activities from Congress," Brian told US lawmakers in her testimony during a hearing. "Barlow is now destitute and living in a trailer," she said as she went on to give other examples of the fate of the whistleblowers in the US government.


Nothing that we don't know.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby arun » 16 Jun 2009 14:20

X Post.

No it is not a typo that should have read “Woman”.

For an Islamic Republic, Pakistan does come across as a place well populated with religiously inclined sex criminals with a penchant for offbeat sexual practices:

Christian Man Raped, Murdered for Refusing to Convert to Islam, Family Says

Saturday, June 13, 2009

By Nora Zimmett

A young Christian man was raped and brutally murdered in Pakistan for refusing to convert to Islam, and police are doing nothing about it, the victim's brother and minister told FOXNews.com.

Pakistani police reportedly found the body of Tariq "Litto" Mashi Ghauri — a 28-year-old university student in Sargodha, Pakistan — lying dead in a canal outside a rural village in Punjab Province on May 15. He had been raped and stabbed at least five times. ………………............

Fox News

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby John Snow » 16 Jun 2009 14:21

US Administration allowed Pakistan to acquire nuclear weapons: Congressional Hearing

Nixon Kissinger screwed us
Carter Cyrus Vance / Edmund Muskie, Zbigniew Brzezinski screwed us
Regan Haig/Shultz screwed us
Papa Bush James Baker gentle screwing
Clinton Halfbright Samuel Berger screwed US right royal
Now its
Obama Billary's turn to screw us.

Get ready

while under IG RG PVN, we could withstand onslaught, in the present combo I have my ummmm

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby RajeshA » 16 Jun 2009 14:27

SSridhar wrote:US Administration allowed Pakistan to acquire nuclear weapons: Congressional Hearing

Excerpts
"As a CIA intelligence officer and later in the Pentagon, Rich Barlow learned that top US officials were allowing Pakistan to manufacture and possess nuclear weapons," Danielle Brian, executive director, Project on Government Oversight (POGO), told a Congressional hearing last week.

"Barlow also discovered that US officials were hiding these activities from Congress," Brian told US lawmakers in her testimony during a hearing. "Barlow is now destitute and living in a trailer," she said as she went on to give other examples of the fate of the whistleblowers in the US government.


Nothing that we don't know.


Perhaps Rich Barlow should be invited before the Congress and give testimony on US duplicity. There may be some more revelations on PRC as well. Indian Americans should get their Congressmen to insist on this, as well as getting Barlow reinstated with full honors and compensated.

Time to wash all the dirty linen in public!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby John Snow » 16 Jun 2009 14:57

The context here is not be charitable to India, but to prove that CIA routinely lied to congress, which vindicates nancy Polosie stand about CIA briefings on GITMO , torture etc.

Yes Indian Americans can put pressure to reveal all


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