Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby NRao » 17 Jun 2009 02:47

if you think India is held at the same equivalence as Israel in USA's eyes,


No I do not. My comments have nothing to do with any country. Just happen to be India and Israel.

Obama certainly could not have predicted the outcome of the elections in either India or Israel. BUT, he did have a solution to both the regions even before he was elected. He is now forcing those solutions on two PMs who were elected with mandates opposing the solutions that Obama had/has in mind. The point being that Obama, in his urgency to solve a problem based on his predetermined solution/s, is walking all over democratically elected officials.

Knowing Obama's MO, he really does not care who opposes him. He has always felt that he has thought through a problem and has a reasonable solution.

Let us see, Obama should face a lot more opposition (within the US) WRT Israel than India. But, my guess is that he will apply the same amount of pressure to get his solution implemented in both the regions.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Rohit_K » 17 Jun 2009 04:44

meet...the Larkana police:

Image
:rotfl:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Prem » 17 Jun 2009 05:11

SSridhar wrote:
kancha wrote:Who knows if Kamal Nath has been 'shunted' to speed up the Golden Quadrilateral :wink:


economically, we need to grow at 10+% GDP for next ten years, our Foreign Exchange Reserves must be 1 T USD, the GQ road project msu be completed etc. etc.


And 2020 and we shall have it . Please make that 40T Rupayya in reserve as $ might not be the darling of the world currency market that time.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby archan » 17 Jun 2009 05:14

Police kaun hai aur daaku kaun... :lol:
The guys at the extreme right, with blue Baloch cap even has a picnic bottle and what looks like a bedsheet. The dude second from left seems to be the gang leader with a fat ponch.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Prem » 17 Jun 2009 05:22

archan wrote:Police kaun hai aur daaku kaun... :lol:
The guys at the extreme right, with blue Baloch cap even has a picnic bottle and what looks like a bedsheet. The dude second from left seems to be the gang leader with a fat ponch.


Pakislam do not distinguish between theese 2.Dakus and Police are same in Pakistan which is unlike kaffir indians who descrimiante between these two elements.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Gerard » 17 Jun 2009 05:30

Pak must stop terrorism against India: Manmohan tells Zardari
Moments after shaking hands, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh told Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari on Tuesday that his mandate was simple: to tell Pakistan that it must end all terrorism against India

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Prem » 17 Jun 2009 05:48

Zardari, Singh did not discuss resumption of talks: Menon
The News YEKATERINBURG: Indian Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon said on Tuesday no discussion was made on resumption of dialogue during the meeting between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and President Asif Ali Zardari, which lasted for 40 minutes.
Talking to reporters after the meeting between two leaders, Menon said India had conveyed its expectations to Pakistan vis a vis terror and 26/11 probe, it did not discuss resumption of talks between the two countries. He also said that Dr. Singh and Zardari would meet again in Shram-el Sheikh in Egypt on the sidelines of NAM Summit next month to take stock of the outcome of the Foreign Secretaries meet. Earlier in the day, Pakistan’s For -Rent Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi said that the most sensible thing would be to resume dialogue with India as soon as possible.

http://www.thepakistaninewspaper.com/ne ... p?id=13940

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Prem » 17 Jun 2009 06:09

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=183348
COIN for dummies

Lota-Gen (retarded) Ass Ud Durrani
The writer is a former chief of the ISI

Moaning and groaning over the root-causes of the insurgency again would be in vain. Root-causes are embedded in history that cannot be rolled back. Those who created the mujahideen rolled back a superpower, which became history. Their successors, the Taliban, are in the process of doing the same to its opposite number. We have to take care of their sidekick, the "Pakistani Taliban".

Now that we have decided to fight this war, we should not make any excuses. That 'our army is not trained for an unconventional war', is a pretty lame one. All armies are trained in conventional warfare and then adapt to the task at hand. No one trains for COIN and then awaits an insurgency.

And for God's sake do not threaten the world that if it did not come to our rescue we would go down the tube and take it along. It is dangerous to put a gun on our head, especially if it fired nuclear shots. What if we were dared to pull the trigger? Invoking external help to fight an internal war in any case was never a good idea. Incidentally, the US has neither the sway nor the intent to arm-twist India to resolve Kashmir. So, do not hold your breath on that account.

Having shed all the extra baggage that was holding us back, we should now get on with the war, which would indeed involve a bit of manoeuvring and some battling. The manoeuvring first.

There are many wars raging in and around Pakistan. Let us try and contain or outsource some of them. Baluchistan is part of the "New Great Game". While the external actors (and there are some big ones there) vie for influence, our spooks should know how to keep them engaged. The eastern front has been mercifully quiet the last few years. Don't let another Mumbai hot it up.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Venkarl » 17 Jun 2009 06:11

:rotfl: Nice find Rohit.....if those grey salwars are not the police uniform....their getup blends them well with the local masses....

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Tilak » 17 Jun 2009 06:16

jaladipc wrote:
Image




Pranay wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/world/20090615-pakistan-battle/index.html

Multimedia profile of battle in Swat...


Image

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Tilak » 17 Jun 2009 06:22

sum wrote:
Former Anti Terrorist Squad Chief Karkara

:rotfl: :rotfl:
Damn, is Karkare such a tongue twister for these dimwits?

First, Zaid Hamid goes on and on about chief Kurkure on Indian TV (while the anchors barely manage to keep a straight face) and now we have Karkara.... :roll:


You need HALP! Please do visit BENIS THRAD more often.. In Bakistan 'EA'/'E'/'AE' is replaced with 'A'(pronunciation).. Note KARATA above in the picture..

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Airavat » 17 Jun 2009 07:16

Kakkaji wrote:Selected 'Nuggets' from last week's TFT. My apologies if already posted:

Singers say music is haram!

Talking to Khabrain pop singer Jawad Ahmad said that singer turned Tablighi, Junaid Jamshed was wrong when he said that music was haram (prohibited). If it was so then all the assets of Jamshed would be haram. Jawad admitted that the Quran had not approved of music.


This Junaid Jamshed joker was the lead singer of a pop group "Vital Signs". He says, "When I came back from a religious tour in 1997, I realized that there was so much more to life than just singing and jumping around." So he transformed himself into a proper bearded Muslim:

ImageImage

He still has a fashion designer business and says: "Our prophet Muhammad, peace be with him, was also a merchant who sold cloth. It was allowed, and all that is the will of Allah should be done."

The Prophet was also a soldier, and this pop-singing joker should become part of some tanzeem and sacrifice his life for Islam. It is the will of Allah.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Tilak » 17 Jun 2009 07:22

Thus sprach Cave-E-Azam : :rotfl: {Looks like the speech was co-written witten with ISI Jernails..}

[6/16/09] Usama Bin Laden: "Speech to the Pakistani Nation" [PDF : Full Transcript]

The NEFA Foundation has obtained a transcript of a new audio recording from Al-Qaida leader Usama Bin Laden titled, "Speech to the Pakistani Nation."


Excerpts :
“And, from some of the plague and testing for us in our current time these wars lead by the

crusader-Zionist alliance and their cooperative from [among] the apostates against our nation.

And, from among them the war America and Zardari's government declared against those who

demand establishment of religion in Swat Valley and the tribes regions. So judge yourselves

before you get judged, and weigh your deeds before they get weighed [for you], and luckily for

us that this test is easy and does not need explanation to appear clearer. It is easy and brief: are

you with establishing Allah's Sharia, or with its fighters America, Zardari and their company?







“And, he who doesn't accept His Sharia, instead of fighting it, Allah will not satisfy him, and he w

regret when regret is invalid. And, he who accepts Islam as a religion, must reject with his hands

Zardari and his army

................



“Zardari and his army are from amongst the sponsors of Satan, and in this there's a response to

those who deprecatorily question: how do the mujahideen fight the Pakistani Army, saying it is a

Muslim Army. Add to that, the Pakistani Army is the one who came to the tribes region to fight

them, in agreement with America and answering to its demands. And, it should be clear if a

Muslim supported the kafirin and supported them against the Muslims, his faith will recoil and in

that he becomes a kafir [and] apostate.
As there are recoils in Wudoo' (When a Muslim washes

hands before prayer) there are also recoils in faith and this is one of them. “

...........
...................

“And, the mujahideen used to fight the Russians and the Afghan Army at the same time, they

were in consensus, and the Ulama from Pakistan and others of Muslim countries used to declare

fatwas to fight them, even if they fasted, prayed, and claim they were Muslims, because they fight

in the same trench with the Kuffar.
Therefore, be considerate O people of vision. This is the

situation of the Pakistani Army today, it is with America in one trench against Islam, so it is a duty

on the honest people of Islam to fight them, and for those who claim to be forced to kill Muslims,

this force isn't considered according to Sharia, and via this claim of force many Muslims are

tricked, until the matter reached that Zardari's men were rumoring about this claim that they're

forced to fight the people of Pakistan on the Western borders province
, and otherwise America

will push India to declare war on Pakistan.
And what is sorrowful that some Muslims are

repeating this claim without logic or consideration. :idea:





“Servants of Allah: Be cautious not to be from among those who Allah's spoke of in [verse]. And,

be cautious from Zardari and Yousef Reda as both of them are outsiders from the Sunna of

Muhammad, prayer and peace upon him, and they fight it, and you must disown everyone who

supports them even with words, and especially the malicious Ulama and media who in the recent

past provided cover for the former cooperative when he carried out a wicked deed by attacking

the Red Mosque, and killed students, and all what they hated about them is that they wanted to

establish Allah's sharia.
These innocent pure bloods were shed, we consider them [martyrs] and

Allah is their [ultimate] considerer, in the place of prayer and worship to satisfy America who

graced Pervez [Musharraf], May Allah punishes him as he deserves. “






“And, the essence of the talk is that Asif zardari and Ishtaq Kayani continued to take the army

away from their main duties which is protecting Islam, its followers and land. And, they pushed it

instead to fight Islam and its followers, and they directed them to fight the Pashtun tribes, and

most of the Pakistani army rejects this unjust war. And, Zardari did that answering those who pay

him from the While House; not 10% but many times that. And, that is a great betrayal to the

loyalty, as he betrayed the people and the nation.”



“And, I'm not saying that he is exposing the Pakistani economy to collapse only, but also there is

what is more important and dangerous that by this war he exposes the religion, security and

unity of the people of Pakistan to danger, to execute an American-Jewish-Indian plot, so it

becomes easier for India to subject Pakistan's dismantled provinces, one after another, to its

influence, similar to former East Pakistan's situation, or worse than that
:?:
.”



“And, with that America's worries are removed regarding the Pakistani nuclear weapons instead

of participating with India to fight the mujahideen.
So, the Muslims in all of Pakistan must

cooperate in facing Zardari and his army who threaten their religion, security, unity and

economy, and continues work to alienate and judge them. So he, despite what hit Pakistan of

great harm on the hands of Pervez [Musharraf], the harm that's expected to result on the hands

of Zardari, of American demands in Pakistan, is more intense and wicked.


“And, you must know that the Army that dared to fight the establishment of Allah's Islamic Sharia

is an apostate army and there isn't any goodness in it. If he jeopardizes our Islamic Sharia, and it is

the greatest things we have, then anything else is even easier to jeopardize; our blood, honors,

land and wealth, so no one depends on him except [either] an or ignorant or a hypocrite, as he

did not regain Kashmir back and he is eligible to risk Pakistan itself. :idea:
But, the ones who will protect

Pakistan are its mujahideen people, Allah-willing.”


PS: Either he is one confused/incoherent dumbass or it was written by a people with varied agendas..

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 17 Jun 2009 07:56

India-Pakistan Potential Remains Untapped

Indian PM and his Foreign Secretary are finding ever imaginative reasons for resuming talks and the above is the latest.
The reference to untapped potential holds out the prospect of a potential expansion in areas of bilateral discussion, including those like water which Pakistan is deeply concerned about, provided conducive conditions are created for the resumption of the peace process.


Pakistan has successfully enlarged the bilateral discussion to include IWT. India will be forced to concede even more waters now. Let us remember that IWT allocates 142 Million Acre Feet (MAF) to TSP every year compared to a mere 33 MAF to India. Only a dimwit can gloat over the fact that the 'untapped potential' includes water. :evil:

No wonder TSPians are elated at the turn of events.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 17 Jun 2009 08:01

Prem wrote:http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=183348
COIN for dummies

Lt-Gen (r) Assad Durrani
The writer is a former chief of the ISI

Moaning and groaning over the root-causes of the insurgency again would be in vain. Root-causes are embedded in history that cannot be rolled back.


Wow ! Does that apply only to FATA or also to Cashmere and terrorism against India ?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Tilak » 17 Jun 2009 08:08

SSridhar wrote:India-Pakistan Potential Remains Untapped

Indian PM and his Foreign Secretary are finding ever imaginative reasons for resuming talks and the above is the latest.
The reference to untapped potential holds out the prospect of a potential expansion in areas of bilateral discussion, including those like water which Pakistan is deeply concerned about, provided conducive conditions are created for the resumption of the peace process.


Pakistan has successfully enlarged the bilateral discussion to include IWT. India will be forced to concede even more waters now. Let us remember that IWT allocates 142 Million Acre Feet (MAF) to TSP every year compared to a mere 33 MAF to India. Only a dimwit can gloat over the fact that the 'untapped potential' includes water. :evil:


Siddharth Varadarajan apart from his routine Kandle Kissing prescriptions, doesn't venture out any further. And the so called, Strategic Thinkers dont have anything new.. :lol: After Teesta and Binayak.. now its Zardari.. :rotfl:

India has said they are not interested to meet Zardari, its was Pakistans request. SS Menon has said India will not talk anything except for Terrorism emanating from Pakistan..

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby negi » 17 Jun 2009 08:20

Strategic Thinkers dont have anything new

^ Aw... how dale you day that ? dontcha know the Strategic analysts these days surf BRF . :lol:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Tilak » 17 Jun 2009 08:30

negi wrote:Strategic Thinkers dont have anything new

^ Aw... how dale you day that ? dontcha know the Strategic analysts these days surf BRF . :lol:


OT: But one editorial from Cheen, had them all paperboys hankering for correspondence.. "as to whether they actually meant it?". While our own jernail says they have "every right" to say, its "just a matter of peception". :roll:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Sanjay M » 17 Jun 2009 08:36

Video montage of Pak war with Taliban:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... .htmlstory

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby ArmenT » 17 Jun 2009 08:51

Rohit_K wrote:meet...the Larkana police:

Image Link
:rotfl:

And folks, this is how the Pakis report that X soldiers were killed in the war on terror. They don't need to fight any Talibanis, when they can score own goals.

1. Note the different weapons. Guy second from right is carrying an AK, guys in the middle are carrying M-16s.
2. Note that while all the rifles have slings, not ONE dude has that sling around their shoulder.
3. Guy in the middle with the orange scarf has been watching one too many Bollywood movies. Note that he's got that rifle positioned so that the butt is dug into his ribs instead of his shoulder. If he ever fires that, not only is he going to shoot where he doesn't want to, he's also going to get one nice set of bruised ribs.
4. Guy in the middle with rifle with red sling strap has no idea which direction his barrel is pointing at, and neither does Mr. AK. That's an accident just waiting to happen.
5. More proof of watching one too many movies. Notice that not one bugger is carrying a spare magazine handy. I honestly believe they think that rifles have an infinite supply of ammo. Maybe some of them are carrying spares in their shoulder bags, but that means they'd have to scrabble in there to reload.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby negi » 17 Jun 2009 08:58

:lol: I guess they were posing for a photograph and there are no M-16's but G-3 assault rifles.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby ArmenT » 17 Jun 2009 09:00

You're right. They are HK G3s

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby shiv » 17 Jun 2009 09:02

Rohit_K wrote:meet...the Larkana police:

Image Link
:rotfl:


My my - those guys shoes are really great for hiking in rough terrain. Pakis are really thorough ain't they? :lol:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby ArmenT » 17 Jun 2009 09:06

^^^^
Not to mention their loose clothing. One guy trips on his shalwar and the guy next to him is history. There's no protection either (helmets, BPJs etc.)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby munna » 17 Jun 2009 09:10

Airavat wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:Selected 'Nuggets' from last week's TFT. My apologies if already posted:

Singers say music is haram!

Talking to Khabrain pop singer Jawad Ahmad said that singer turned Tablighi, Junaid Jamshed was wrong when he said that music was haram (prohibited). If it was so then all the assets of Jamshed would be haram. Jawad admitted that the Quran had not approved of music.


This Junaid Jamshed joker was the lead singer of a pop group "Vital Signs". He says, "When I came back from a religious tour in 1997, I realized that there was so much more to life than just singing and jumping around." So he transformed himself into a proper bearded Muslim:

He still has a fashion designer business and says: "Our prophet Muhammad, peace be with him, was also a merchant who sold cloth. It was allowed, and all that is the will of Allah should be done."

The Prophet was also a soldier, and this pop-singing joker should become part of some tanzeem and sacrifice his life for Islam. It is the will of Allah.

Seen the man in action and he was Shoaib Chukhtar of his times. He was a rage in Bradfordistan and Londonistan areas but now he is a reformed man :P .

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Tilak » 17 Jun 2009 09:12

ArmenT wrote:^^^^
Not to mention their loose clothing. One guy trips on his shalwar and the guy next to him is history. There's no protection either (helmets, BPJs etc.)


They look like some zamindars private lashkar, BTW. Larkana is home town of the Bhuttos.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby jamwal » 17 Jun 2009 09:24

One comment from that Indian Express report on First signs of thaw in India-Pak 26/11 freeze



Zardari's shameBy: Nayakuddin bin sh.ied | Tuesday , 16 Jun '09 18:12:49 PM Reply | Forward It is shameful that the leader of the Talibani Republic, a man of 200 million believers and 200 nukes talks to a person and does not mention the 7 million Indian army in Kajmir, the 4000 killed in Gujarat, and the torture of muslims in Bangalore, Kerala. It is a shame on Zardari. Unfit admin-istration really
:rotfl:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 17 Jun 2009 09:30

Passion and Reason

But if we are to ascribe a sinister purpose to these consulates, then we must also logically accept that Afghanistan is in cahoots with India, pursuing a joint agenda. And, by extension (because Mr Karzai cannot afford to antagonise its patron), that America too is part of this plot.

Does this make sense? Why should Afghanistan be plotting with India to destabilise us? And why should the Americans? Are they not, in their anxiety to achieve exactly the opposite result (a stable and peaceful Pakistan), throwing money and arms at us? Surely, if they want us to disintegrate, it would be far simpler to just withhold money and arms and let us sink?

No. My commonsense and reason sees matters differently. No one (except Al Qaeda and its affiliates), and particularly so India, has any interest whatsoever in destabilising us. In fact that is a horror scenario for them. Who would want for a neighbour a chaotic, ungovernable, nuclear-armed country, racked with civil strife and overrun by those bent on a deadly jihad? It is not as if India wants to conquer and absorb us territorially.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 17 Jun 2009 09:40

TTP threatens more clerics

“Now it is your turn—we have sent a jacketwala :lol: (a man with a suicide vest) to mend clerics like you :lol: . We will also send jacketwalas to other clerics too,” sources told Aaj Kal quoting a threatening letter addressed to a cleric.

According to sources, TTP is written in bold letters at the end of the letter.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby svinayak » 17 Jun 2009 09:48

SSridhar wrote:
Prem wrote:http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=183348
COIN for dummies

Lt-Gen (r) Assad Durrani
The writer is a former chief of the ISI

Moaning and groaning over the root-causes of the insurgency again would be in vain. Root-causes are embedded in history that cannot be rolled back.


Wow ! Does that apply only to FATA or also to Cashmere and terrorism against India ?


Use this for K factor

Root-causes are embedded in history that cannot be rolled back.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Tilak » 17 Jun 2009 09:51

X-Posted :

After Raakit delivery comes Jaakit delivery, courtesy Ustad-E-Fidayeen Baitullah Mehsud

TTP threatens more attacks on prominent clerics
Aaj Kal Report

LAHORE: The Ministry of Interior has advised the home departments of all four provinces to tighten security after the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) threatened more suicide attacks on prominent religious leaders.

Now it is your turn 8) —we have sent a jacketwala (a man with a suicide vest) :P to mend clerics like you. We will also send jacketwalas to other clerics too,” sources told Aaj Kal quoting a threatening letter addressed to a cleric.

According to sources, TTP is written in bold letters at the end of the letter. In light of the letter, law enforcement agencies have been advised to tighten security for leading religious leaders.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Rohit_K » 17 Jun 2009 10:26

The TSPA is fighting out there and look what the top commandu is upto:

Image

Image

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Raja Ram » 17 Jun 2009 10:45

Gentle Readers,

In my earlier posts here, I had contended that the only institution that is holding the artificial state of Pakistan together is now the Pakistani Army. Over the years, they have shown two principle traits:

1. Unity of command, they have adhered to the formal hierarchial legacy of the British Indian Army where the COAS commands the absolute loyalty of the officer cadre, an izzat and imaan based loyalty between the jawan and the afsars of the Pakistani Fauj. It has withstood, the break up of the country and an abject surrender. While the Bengali Army and officer cadre broke away, even then there were some muslim loyalists in the Bangla Army who went on to take over Bangladesh.

2. Capacity and willingness to turn on their own countrymen if so ordered. It happened in East Pakistan, several times in Baluchistan, Pakthooni lands, in the Northern Area, in Hyderabad. When it comes to questioning the supremacy of the army in Pakistan it has not hesitated to crush its challengers with an iron hand.

That is why the present mutiny inside the Pakistani Army is interesting. Gentle readers, please note that this is a big change. There is a revolt inside the PA and it seems to be spreading. It is spreading in the officer corps as well as the jawans. The Pakistani Army is showing for the first time signs of moving away from its defining characterstics. While the leadership wants to crush the mullahs who have acquired a mind of their own, the PA middle rank and jawans, for the first time, are showing reluctance. In a way, Musharaff sensed it and that is why he wanted to do a deal with jehadis. Amongst other things, it helped him to keep his forces united and backing him fully. Let it not be said that BR missed this important change.

What does this signify? Think from the perspective of Kiyani. There is pressure from the Americans to crackdown on Jehadis. There is enlighted self interest in showing the jehadis their place. At the same time, there is pressure from his own force not to go after jehadis. For taking them on will turn the most important lever of power and lever of equivalence with India off. It is imperative for Kiyani to somehow unite Pakistan's now desparate forces to rally back around pakistan. The US is more interested in minimising its losses and destroying the taliban and Al queda's base in Pakistan. They do not care that much for saving the state. They may be even comortable of a split Pakistan but leaving a dominant rump state which can balance India.

So what will Kiyani do? He is likely to activate some of the sarkari jehadis to unleash terror in India, both in J&K as well other parts. His objective will be to provoke India, to act. That will allow him to get his forces out of the increasing involvement into Civil War. India will then be used to rally the strident jehadis to stop their assault and come under the fold of the army. It could help the Pakistani Army to plead helplessness with the US and make US force India to talk and back down. The Army will use the civilian front, especially Gilani, to make demands on India as a price for continued support to the US.

How can India react? There is two school of thougts. One is not to get provoked and give the room to the PA by agreeing to talk to the civilian leadership, whilst keeping the pressure on them to refrain from terror attacks through the jehadi group. It would call for significant US support from the Indian side to add to the pressure.

The second is to recognise the opportunity and go after securing Indian interests by way of holding back on talks or normalization, increasing diplomatic pressure, preparing for averting terror attacks that will be attempted and carefully using military pressure through acquisition of game changers, series of well designed military exercises oriented towards demonstrating retribution strikes deep inside pakistan, starting covert operations to furtner accentuate the widening differences between regions internally. Let us bear in mind that all this would mean confronting and conflicting the US.

Judging by recent actions of the GoI it seems to me that option 1 is being persued. Maybe that is the right one to pursue at this stage. It would be more in line with the vision of India and the priorities of the present administration. The emphasis is to continue to grow and limit the potential of pakistan to damage or threaten the growth prospects in India. So India will do only that which it is necessary to protect India. A minimum credible defence of India. We have to recognise that this seems to be the desire of majority of Indians. It is another matter if this is right or wrong.

It might be a bit unpalatable to many here, but many Indians, I do believe, feel that a strong and stable Pakistan is possible and that such a state will willingly accept the reality of India and will live as good neighbours if not as good friends. It may be even more unpalatable but there is a significant section of Indian elite, who believe that "inclusive growth" should extend to all our neighbours and we must help Pakistan at its hour of crisis.

As usual these are just stray thoughts steming from the rumblings in the wind. Take it for what it is worth.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby kittoo » 17 Jun 2009 11:30

Raja Ram wrote:Gentle Readers,

In my earlier posts here, I had contended ........
.......rumblings in the wind. Take it for what it is worth.


Excellent post, sir. One thing I wanted to ask was about China in this equation. Obviously the all weather friend of Pak is keeping an eye on this and Pakis regard them high too, as they think China is a nation which will never equate them and India because of the tensions and all.
So, do you see there are some other currents going on, especially if seen in the light of recent fortifications in NE by India?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Raja Ram » 17 Jun 2009 11:55

kittoo,
China is one of the three principal benefactors of Pakistan. The other two being the US and Saudi Arabia. The Saudis have been the financial guarantor and lender of the last resort, the US has been a principal arms and aid supplier. The Chinese have been the principal provider of strategic capability - while the US kept itself to providing Pakistan with operational game changers to keep a semblance of equivalence viz a viz India, like giving the F16, submarines, P3 Orion, Sidewinder missiles etc, it only provided the "Nelson's eye" support for Pakistani quest for strategic weapons.

That came from China, and along with nukes and missile tech, it also provided them with infrastructure support and a cheaper source of mass weapons primarily directed at India.

For the PRC, Pakistan is an important element to check India and an important part of the string of pearls. But it has to be wary. Not many recognise that PRC actually has two "Kashmir" type problems - the one in Tibet is well known, but the more important one is in Xinjiang. They have more in common with Turkmen and Kazakhs than with Han China. And they are Moslem. The war there has been far more bloody than in Tibet actually. And China would like to keep their hard fought supremacy there at all costs. Pakistani wahabism could be exported to fan the population there as a vehicle for expressing their national identity.

The Chinese would therefore, like to use their fair weather friend carefully. As long as the Pakistani Army guarantees and delivers on the guarantee to keep the jehadis away from Xinjiang, China will stand steadfast to keep the Pakistani state going.

One can therefore expect the Chinese to become more aggressive against India in the NE if they see that they cannot save Pakistan. They have hedged their bets somewhat by taking Nepal into their orbit through the Maoists. They have tried their best to get Lanka in their orbit. In Burma they have made significant inroads but recent Indian engagement there has stemmed the tide. Pakistan was their most effective front against India. If that collapses they will try to redress that by increasing pressure in NE and in the sea lanes of the Indian Ocean.

China is in essence biding its time now, they know that India is going to be their strongest obstacle in their quest for world power status. They have to wait for the post Dalai Lama era in Tibet. That is window that is going to close for India when the present Dalai Lama passes away. The next one will be Chinese selection. They have ensure a key step by getting their nominee installed as Panchen Lama and Dalai's selection is gone missing.

The GOI has woken up to Chinese threat belatedly and is trying to make amends. The base in Tezpur and the hectic building of roads and airfields are the usual reactive "catch up" that a slumbering GOI does. It is a result of complete myopia and knoweledge in the political and beaurocratic circles of India on matters related to National Security. It is matter of discussion in another thread, so I will stop here.

Suffice it to say for now that China will do everything possible to help PA keep its country Pakistan.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby kittoo » 17 Jun 2009 12:07

Raja Ram wrote:kittoo,
China is one of the three principal benefactors of ....
....will do everything possible to help PA keep its country Pakistan.


Thank you Sir for the insight.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby RajeshA » 17 Jun 2009 12:53

Raja Ram wrote:How can India react? There is two school of thoughts. One is not to get provoked and give the room to the PA by agreeing to talk to the civilian leadership, whilst keeping the pressure on them to refrain from terror attacks through the jehadi group. It would call for significant US support from the Indian side to add to the pressure.

The second is to recognise the opportunity and go after securing Indian interests by way of holding back on talks or normalization, increasing diplomatic pressure, preparing for averting terror attacks that will be attempted and carefully using military pressure through acquisition of game changers, series of well designed military exercises oriented towards demonstrating retribution strikes deep inside pakistan, starting covert operations to furtner accentuate the widening differences between regions internally. Let us bear in mind that all this would mean confronting and conflicting the US.

Judging by recent actions of the GoI it seems to me that option 1 is being persued.


Pakistan is caught in a cycle of peace making with the Pakiban and then launching offensives against them. After every operation and peace phase, the Taliban grows and consolidates its position. After every operation, the unity of the Army goes down, and more areas move into the category of no government writ. The increasing number of criminal and political gangs, secession, political chicanery, all feed into this process.

The ongoing operations have provided the Taliban with more raw materials in the form of 2.5 million IDPs. When the next phase of peace making comes, the Taliban are sure to expand and grow even more. The question is, 'when comes the tipping point?'

This process depends on peace between India and Pakistan. A conflict between the two countries brings forth a completely new dynamic, where the forces in Pakistan would coalesce, and provide a setback to the natural disintegration of Pakistan.

So basically, the war between India and Pakistan is one of nerves. What happens first? Cometh the Tipping Point first or cometh the Provocation to War first? In the second scenario, India has much to lose. In the first scenario, there will be some environmental blowback. If need be, India can go to war also, but the preference would be for first scenario.

The third alternative of a peaceful and stable Pakistan is a mirage and can be ignored.

If the preference is for first scenario, then India would have to play this game of peace talks and then breaking them off, while at the same time ratcheting up our internal security. In this scenario, it may become necessary to even take a few blows.

My 2 cents prescription too would be to have a combination of both schools of thought, especially including covert operations, support for Baluchis, and a strong troops buildup on the border with the first school of thought. Our pressure should remain directed at getting at the leadership of the Pakjabi terror organizations.

We should perhaps consider the option of hiring head hunters to get at the likes of Hafiz Saeed, Masood Azhar, Dawood Ibrahim, dead or alive. Consideration the proliferation of gangs and other violent groups in Pakistan, some would be open to the idea. Do we already have a bounty on their heads?

Another thing we can do is that after some terrorist strike in India, besides the things we already do, we should consider hitting at some military targets, which do not have the capability of increasing tensions and rhetoric to the point of forcing a war upon us, targets like navy ships, etc. We should do this consistently! Some token retribution is called for!

Actually peace talks at the moment would be contra-productive, because once peace talks resume, the Obama Administration may start putting pressure on India to accommodate Pakistan on Kashmir. If the peace talks remain in deep freeze, the Kashmir question stays frozen as well, and Obama has no room to intervene.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby RajeshA » 17 Jun 2009 13:08

Raja Ram wrote:kittoo,
For the PRC, Pakistan is an important element to check India and an important part of the string of pearls. But it has to be wary. Not many recognise that PRC actually has two "Kashmir" type problems - the one in Tibet is well known, but the more important one is in Xinjiang. They have more in common with Turkmen and Kazakhs than with Han China. And they are Moslem. The war there has been far more bloody than in Tibet actually. And China would like to keep their hard fought supremacy there at all costs. Pakistani wahabism could be exported to fan the population there as a vehicle for expressing their national identity.

The Chinese would therefore, like to use their fair weather friend carefully. As long as the Pakistani Army guarantees and delivers on the guarantee to keep the jehadis away from Xinjiang, China will stand steadfast to keep the Pakistani state going.


That is the reason I am of the opinion, that India can only then play global power politics, when like all superpowers, we too have our favorite Jihadis. The exhaust pipe in AfPak should be redirected at the 3½ Friends of Pakistan. It is possible to have a detente with Taliban/Al Qaida ruled Pushtunistan, as long as if we can contain it, and ensure much of its input and output. A break up of Pakistan will allow us that option. All 3½ Friends of Pakistan are vulnerable.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby kittoo » 17 Jun 2009 13:21

RajeshA wrote:targets like navy ships, etc.


But if they'll be looking for a conflict, won't they be able to attack on the grounds that we attacked their Navy ship or anything else?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 17 Jun 2009 13:45

Tribal lashkars on their own

It is not a good idea to be convinced by ISPR images of destroyed tunnels and militants’ bunkers in the Peuchar valley and other areas. It took almost a decade for the militants to build their infrastructure under the very nose of the state, and it will take the state a similar number of years to eradicate this. This can be attributed both to the massive intelligence failure on the part of the state as well as the superior managerial skills of the Taliban leadership, who supervised their terror industry from unfriendly locations in faraway Waziristan and Afghanistan.


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