Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

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RajeshA
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby RajeshA » 17 Jun 2009 13:51

kittoo wrote:
RajeshA wrote:targets like navy ships, etc.


But if they'll be looking for a conflict, won't they be able to attack on the grounds that we attacked their Navy ship or anything else?


Pakistan does not want to attack India conventionally. They have opted for bleeding India using their proxies, the Pakjabi Jihadis.

Besides that what they want are two things:
1. They want an excuse to leave the AfPak war theater and move their troops to the Indian border.
2. They want to consolidate Pakistani public opinion behind the Army including that of the Taliban and other Islamists, throwing up the bogey of Indian aggression.

Sinking a Navy ship, is technically not on 'Pakistani Soil'! An attack on the Pakistani Navy, cannot be twisted to read like as if India is going to attack Pakistan land itself! Of course, the TSPA will make a big brouhaha on this, but in Islam, the Jihadis are more concerned with issues of land, that the sanctity of 'Muslim Lands' should not be violated. Sea waters do not count!

So even though Pakistan will get its first wish, that is to pull its troops to the Indian borders, and avoid fighting the Taliban, it also ensures our (at least my) wishes to allow the Taliban to consolidate its position further taking away even more land away from government control in Pakistan's hinterland.

TSPA's second wish will only marginally be fulfilled. They can ratchet up the rhetoric (while we keep our down) but as mentioned earlier, an attack on TSPN would not be considered an attack on Pakistan, and their rhetoric will have only limited resonance. This can be even more potent, if India reaches an understanding with TTP, that they should not join in the GoP rhetoric when and if such an attack on TSPN happens.

India should continue to keep the troop levels on the border high, and the anti-Pakistani rhetoric low. We should also start to officially refer to Pakistani terrorists as Pakjabi terrorists even if they come from Sindh or Pushtun areas. This differentiation is necessary to stress that USA and India have a different set of enemies in Pakistan.
Last edited by RajeshA on 17 Jun 2009 13:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 17 Jun 2009 13:52

Editorial in Newsline

Some government officials still continue to live in a state of denial. Take the Punjab law minister, for instance. He saw an “Indian hand” in the recent suicide bombing of Rescue 15 and the ISI headquarters in Lahore in which 30 people were killed and around 300 injured. Can’t a legal mind fathom that the Tehreek-i-Taliban Pakistan are being hit hard by the army operation in Swat and that they are retaliating in the manner they know best: suicide bombings?

The Punjab law minister does not have to cover up for the Taliban. They already have avid fans in the persons of the Tehreek-i-Insaaf chief, Imran Khan, and the former Jamaat amir, Qazi Hussain Ahmed, who continue to castigate the army and the Americans for their sins and turn a blind eye to the atrocities of “Allah’s warriors.” Possibly to ensure an exalted position for themselves in the Taliban paradise?

. . . . Secondly, there has to be a major rethink of our foreign policy in order to rid the country of the menace of Talibanisation. The army and its intelligence network, which has often been accused of maneuvering foreign policy, will have to drop words like “jihad,” “strategic depth” and “foot soldiers” from its vocabulary in order for any political government to make headway in improving its relations with Afghanistan and India.

The Taliban were created to wage a “holy war” against the Soviets in Afghanistan, not to wage a war against the world, using Pakistan as their base and reducing the entire Pakistani nation to pulp or a state of pariahs. For that is what we of the green passports have become – a nation of pariahs. If we are desirous of regaining our reputation as a dignified nation, we will have to lay to rest the ghost of the Taliban forever.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby arun » 17 Jun 2009 14:29

Excerpts from an article in Canada’s National Post titled “Pakistan: Land of Unintended Consequences” about the proceedings of a conference on controlling terrorism in the Af-Pak area:

From the moment the conference began, it became clear that the dysfunctional, artificial nature of the Pakistani state would be the underlying leitmotif. Created just six decades ago, it is a hodgepodge of different ethnic groups and languages -- their only commonality being the fact that they don't happen to be Hindu.


Much of the discussion at the conference revolved around narrow technical arguments about the best way to defeat the Taliban and pacify the FATA. But that seems to be somewhat beside the point compared to the larger, underlying problem: Pakistan's lack of a binding national identity as something besides a paranoid 1940s-era Muslim bulwark against India's Hindus.


In any normal part of the world, the existence of a violent, uncontrolled country-within-a-country would be a cause for major concern. But in Pakistan, where anti-Indian paranoia has served as a semi-official state creed since the country's founding, this weird state of affairs has long been considered a strategic asset.

FATA and surrounding areas have served as a sort of giant arm's-length staging area and training camp for irregulars and terrorists going off to liberate Kashmir and extend Pakistan's strategic interests in Afghanistan.


The Pakistani intelligence service -- the ISI -- is particularly beholden to the old anti-Indian mindset. To this day, the ISI blocks local police from arresting well-known jihadi murderers if they have reputations as useful assets against India.


The article is available here:

National Post

It is also available at the website of The Foundation for Defence of Democracies, the conference sponsors:

Foundation for Defence of Democracies

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby shiv » 17 Jun 2009 14:40

Raja Ram wrote:So what will Kiyani do? He is likely to activate some of the sarkari jehadis to unleash terror in India, both in J&K as well other parts. His objective will be to provoke India, to act. That will allow him to get his forces out of the increasing involvement into Civil War. India will then be used to rally the strident jehadis to stop their assault and come under the fold of the army. It could help the Pakistani Army to plead helplessness with the US and make US force India to talk and back down. The Army will use the civilian front, especially Gilani, to make demands on India as a price for continued support to the US.

How can India react? There is two school of thougts. One is not to get provoked and give the room to the PA by agreeing to talk to the civilian leadership, whilst keeping the pressure on them to refrain from terror attacks through the jehadi group. It would call for significant US support from the Indian side to add to the pressure.

The second is to recognise the opportunity and go after securing Indian interests by way of holding back on talks or normalization, increasing diplomatic pressure, preparing for averting terror attacks that will be attempted and carefully using military pressure through acquisition of game changers, series of well designed military exercises oriented towards demonstrating retribution strikes deep inside pakistan, starting covert operations to furtner accentuate the widening differences between regions internally. Let us bear in mind that all this would mean confronting and conflicting the US.


Good post Rajaram but there may be a third option that can, if it works, "help Pakistan on its way" to committing suicide in Northwest Pakistan.

That is to agree to reduce border tension, make noises about reducing troops - and praising Pakistan for its efforts and "reducing the threat perception" from India so they can commit more troops from the Indian border to genocide/suicide.

This is a heads we win, tails you lose option for India. The only negative consequence is anger from the Indian elite and that too only some sections (eg BRF). Get the entrenched Paki top-grade troops off the Indian border and let them go kill more Pakis. All women who lose husbands and children to the Paki army now, and boys who lose fathers and brothers will remember this for a long time to come.

IOW India simply must help Pakistan it its fight against terror :twisted: :-?

If Pakistan does not fall for this, nothing is lost for us - but Pakistan will look silly talking of an "India threat" when India is "talking peace" and "pulling out troops" :mrgreen:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby RajeshA » 17 Jun 2009 15:11

shiv wrote:That is to agree to reduce border tension, make noises about reducing troops - and praising Pakistan for its efforts and "reducing the threat perception" from India so they can commit more troops from the Indian border to genocide/suicide.

This is a heads we win, tails you lose option for India. The only negative consequence is anger from the Indian elite and that too only some sections (eg BRF). Get the entrenched Paki top-grade troops off the Indian border and let them go kill more Pakis. All women who lose husbands and children to the Paki army now, and boys who lose fathers and brothers will remember this for a long time to come.

IOW India simply must help Pakistan it its fight against terror :twisted: :-?

If Pakistan does not fall for this, nothing is lost for us - but Pakistan will look silly talking of an "India threat" when India is "talking peace" and "pulling out troops" :mrgreen:

I mentioned a few posts ago, that one should definitely try to keep the anti-Pakistan rhetoric down. It is also important, that we keep our troop strength on the border at current levels or even increase it, citing cross-border terrorism threat. I am against allowing too many Paki top-grade troops off the Indian border.

From what I know from history, Muslim populations cede their loyalty to the strongest Islamic Kabila. If TSPA is that Kabila, then Pushtuns will go with them, regardless of how many casualties they suffer at the hands of TSPA. It is important that the Pakiban appear to the people as the invincible force, rather than the TSPA.

America is using dollars and pressure to get the TSPA to go kill their own countrymen, mostly Pushtuns. The troops in the battlefield are already doing enough damage and killing, but not enough to defeat the Pakiban. We should not want this capacity to increase to an extent, that they truly succeed in defeating the Pakiban. What India should aim for is a stalemate in Pushtun areas. The Pakiban should come out stronger after this conflict. Only then, is there a chance of a breakup of Pakistan. The TSPA has already produced sufficient raw material for the growth of Pakiban ranks in the form of IDPs. That potential should be allowed to harness. As such we do not need an out and out victory for TSPA right now.

Pakistani troops committed to the Indo-Pak border should sit tight on the border! This ensures a balance of power in Pushtun Areas, and the TSPA suffers a steady attrition.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Raja Ram » 17 Jun 2009 16:32

Gentle Rakshaks, think a little harder and further, and you will get to what I am indicating through these posts. I am making the following points:

1. There is a conflict of interest between what will serve India and what will serve US with regard to Pakistan. It is not in India's interest in anyway for the artificial state of Pakistan to survive. The US on the other hand wants it to survive if it can and be the cat's paw for them against Jehadis who have a thing or two agains the US.

2. The state of Pakistan is at the brink, and its much vaunted survival instincts are undergoing its severest test. The institution that still has a stake in holding the artificial state of Pakistan together is the Pakistani Army. It is now caught in a pincer of American pressure, Islamic Jehadis who dream of taking over from them as the top dog and a resurgent India.

3. The benefactors of Pakistan have often conflicting and competing interests in Pakistan but all of them would like the state to survive. However, there is now a limitation on what they can do to save the state. This presents an opportunity for India.

4. The final arbiter and keeper of Pakistani destiny, the Pakistan Army is facing a major change in circumstances and its cohesiveness and hold over itself is now under threat. Its leadership no longer enjoys the unity of command, nor is there a willingness to crush internal revolts to its leadership.

So gentle reader, think a little bit more and you will get the answer. What we cannot afford at this point is a policy of drift or a policy of convergence with US interests. What is seen however is a mixture of both. That is the worrying part. The relenting of pressure and resumptions of talks serves American interests, it does not serve ours.

India is looking for a minimum credible defence against pakistan so that 8%GDP is achieved. While it is important to chase that growth, there should be a recognition that guaranteeing that growth can only be done by securing India and protecting soverign interests. National Security and neutralizing Pakistan seems to have been relegated to a distant second in terms of priorities. It would be a costly mistake and a remiss on the part of GOI if that is indeed the case.

Such a view, is at best a lonely lament nowadays. The vast majority of Indians and the GOI does not seem to realize the need of the hour or the opportunity that is presenting itself.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby vsudhir » 17 Jun 2009 16:43

HMV spinners at full flow in that newspauper of record onlee

Hint of a Thaw for India and Pakistan

By LYDIA POLGREEN and SOMINI SENGUPTA
Published: June 16, 2009
NEW DELHI — It was a meeting that lasted less than an hour, with a tense, photo-op grip-and-grin on the sidelines of a summit meeting in Russia. But as the first meeting between India’s prime minister, Manmohan Singh, and Pakistan’s president, Asif Ali Zardari, since the terrorist attacks in Mumbai last year, the brief encounter was freighted with expectations of a fresh opening between the countries.


Mr. Zardari flashed his customary broad grin for the cameras, but Mr. Singh had only his usual tight smile and terse words to offer.

“I am happy to meet you, but my mandate is to tell you that the territory of Pakistan must not be used for terrorism,” Mr. Singh told Mr. Zardari when they met before the meeting of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, a regional group of nations, in Yekaterinburg, Russia, Reuters reported.


Yet beneath the frosty surface and well beyond the for-the-cameras pleasantries, a slow but perceptible thaw between the countries has been taking place.

Former senior diplomats close to the foreign policy establishment here say that back-channel negotiations on Kashmir — the contested border territory that is the central dispute between the nations — are set to begin again, something the United States has quietly urged.

Such behind-the-scenes talks came close to reaching a blueprint of an agreement on the decades-old dispute while Gen. Pervez Musharraf was Pakistan’s president, but they were suspended last year as the general’s grip on power slipped away.


Spin onlee. unnamed diplomatic officials versus SS Menon who was willing to identify himself in claiming that nothing apart from terror support from TSP was discussed.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Raja Ram » 17 Jun 2009 16:55

Well the PM seems to make it clear that he wants talks to resume. Here is his call for peace with Pakistan and his statement that he is looking for inclusive growth for Pakistan as well in his subcontinental vision.

http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/jun/ ... pak-pm.htm

I do not wish to comment on this.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby kittoo » 17 Jun 2009 16:55

RajeshA wrote:From what I know from history, Muslim populations cede their loyalty to the strongest Islamic Kabila. If TSPA is that Kabila, then Pushtuns will go with them, regardless of how many casualties they suffer at the hands of TSPA. It is important that the Pakiban appear to the people as the invincible force, rather than the TSPA.

True, but what about the Afghans? The border of Afghanistan and Pakistan is porous, that is something we all know. Now the afghan taliban are not even surrendering to unkil completely, do you think they will surrender to TSPA? I am not confronting, I am not completely sure, just asking. Afghan taliban will keep pouring in Pakistan, at least till unkil is in Afghanistan. Won't they oppose TSPA, which they see as working on the behest of Unkil? And there is anyway enough fodder for them in form of IDPs.
Views?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 17 Jun 2009 16:59

What the US has been demanding for hitherto from Pakistan has been the cooperation from PA for a hammer-and-anvil type of operation. Pakistan was not willing to concede that. In the meanwhile the situation developed such that PA was forced to initiate some action against the Taliban. Rather than taking on the whole might of the Taliban, the ISI tried to drive wedges within he Taliban unity using known fault lines. For example, it tried to create tribal lashkars along clannish lines, it tried to influence sarkari 'good' Taliban to fight the 'bad' Taliban, it floated rumours about split etc and it tried last, but not the least, its most important master card, the great Sufi Mohammed. He was rehabilitated with the intention of causing the split between Baitullah and Fazlullah. Nothing worked and in fact Mullah Omar, with the help pf Jalaluddin Haqqani, forged a better alliance among the warring groups of Maulvi Nazeer, Gul Bahadur and Baitullah. For all the sound and fury in Swat and Malakand, it would be the two halves of Waziristan that will determine who the eventual victor would be.

Be that as it may, the PA was forced, therefore, to initiate some action. Its troops have been confined to the garrison forts in all the FATA areas for so long and they are being used. IMHO, there has neither been any significant troop movement from the eastern borders nor will there be one even if India reduces its defensive deployment along the LoC because TSP is certainly wary of the 'Cold Start'. It knows that India today can move its integrated strike corps very quickly, in fact as quickly as the Pakistani forces. It is therefore managing with the existing infantry of PA and Frontier Corps. The latter especially has added new strength both in terms of quality and quantity with US assistance. Again, with the kind of operation that Pakistan has been conducting in the FATA and Swat regions, they don't need much infantry and the British-built forts with Pakistani troops inside them dot the entire landscape already.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 17 Jun 2009 17:21

India puts Pakistan to 'terror test'

Pakistan's sincerity has been tested many times before and it has always come out with flying colours. So, why are we offering one more test when we know two things: one, there is no effective single power centre (the most effective is only the PA but even that is not what it used to be before) and two, Zardari himself has time and again spoken of difficulties. How is that lame duck President, who might lose his position anytime now, implement the most dramatic turnabout in the history of Pakistan by turning against the jihadis ? He could not even bring ISI into civilian control and we trust him to take the most far-reaching decision in the history of Pakistan ? Don't we remember the fiasco a few months back when the ISI order was reversed within 24 hours ?

Manmohan Singh said he told the president that India expected Pakistan to show the same "sincerity and determination" against these terror outfits as it had in tackling the Taliban and the Al Qaeda on its western flanks.


But, the highlighted portion above should convey some message to our American friends.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby arun » 17 Jun 2009 17:24

Selig Harrison’s weighs the relative dangers posed by the Pakistani Punjabi Islamists and the Pukhtoon Islamists to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Concludes the Pakistani Punjabi Islamists are the greater danger as they gell well with elements in the Pakistan Army.

Is the reported fact, that in Pakistani Southern Punjab the landlords tend to be Shia, correct?

The other Islamist threat in Pakistan

By Selig S. Harrison | June 17, 2009

THE DANGER of an Islamist takeover of Pakistan is real. But it does not come from the Taliban guerrillas now battling the Pakistan Army in the Swat borderlands. It comes from a proliferating network of heavily armed Islamist militias in the Punjab heartland and major cities directed by Lashkar-e-Taiba …………………

Disarming Lashkar-e-Taiba should be the top US priority in Pakistan because it would greatly reduce the possibility of a coup by Islamist sympathizers in the armed forces. The closet Islamists in the Army and the powerful Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate (ISI) are not likely to risk a coup in Islamabad unless they can count on armed support from Lashkar-e-Taiba and its allies to help them consolidate their grip on the countryside. …………….

Lashkar-e-Taiba is on the Sunni side of the Sunni-Shia doctrinal divide in Islam and has its deepest roots in a 20,000-square-mile swath of southern Punjab between Jhang and Bahawalpur, where it champions the cause of landless Sunni peasants indentured to big Shia landowners. …………………

Sunni extremist groups have been active in the Punjab since the creation of Pakistan and became the nucleus of Lashkar-e-Taiba when the ISI, with US funding, built up a jihadi movement to fight against Soviet forces in Afghanistan. Lashkar-e-Taiba and key allies such as Lashkar-e-Jhangvi still get ISI support and have close ties with other intelligence agencies, but how much and how close remain uncertain. …………..................

Boston Globe

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 17 Jun 2009 17:59

US quickly welcomes MMS-Zardari meet

It is obvious now that MMS had to meet Zardari under US pressure.
"A resumption of such high-level engagement in the aftermath of the November Mumbai attacks is encouraging," State Department Spokesman, Ian Kelly told reporters on Tuesday. "We have said before that India and Pakistan need to continue their dialogue to find joint solutions against terrorism and to promote regional stability," he said.

Asked what the US was doing to make sure that Pakistan, its ally in the war on terror, will deliver on the promises to combat terror as demanded by India as a pre-condition for resumption of a dialogue, Mr. Kelly parried, saying "I'll refer you to their own spokesman to comment on that."

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Pranay » 17 Jun 2009 18:12

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8103479.stm

PA readies to attack Bait-ullah lair...

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Raja Ram » 17 Jun 2009 18:18

SSridhar wrote:US quickly welcomes MMS-Zardari meet

It is obvious now that MMS had to meet Zardari under US pressure.
"A resumption of such high-level engagement in the aftermath of the November Mumbai attacks is encouraging," State Department Spokesman, Ian Kelly told reporters on Tuesday. "We have said before that India and Pakistan need to continue their dialogue to find joint solutions against terrorism and to promote regional stability," he said.

Asked what the US was doing to make sure that Pakistan, its ally in the war on terror, will deliver on the promises to combat terror as demanded by India as a pre-condition for resumption of a dialogue, Mr. Kelly parried, saying "I'll refer you to their own spokesman to comment on that."


Now, please re-read my posts in the recent past. It will make sense, my foreboding. Anyway, it is not inconsistent with the vision and stand of the PM at all. It has now the clear backing of an electoral mandate.

We are making a departure here. So far every PM of India has steadfastly held to the principle of keeping Indian interests paramount. While many a time they were not in a position to make headway in promoting it they never made it subservient to other interests of other powers. They never gave into accepting any other nation's interest or subserving Indian interest to others agenda.

Now, given the vision of a South Asian identity, focus on purely economic growth, and a vision of India as primarily a economic power with some regional influence that can be exerted only in concert with other global powers as the cornerstone of state policy, we are on the "right track". This new approach towards protecting and promoting national interests has the mandate of the people. This is what India wants. And this is what we will get.

Some of us may feel that this is wrong, but we do not matter. Cest La vie'

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 17 Jun 2009 18:44

Pakistan doesn't like Manmohan Singh's statement

In a statement made in the Senate or Upper House of Parliament, minister of state for foreign affairs Malik Ahmad Khan said Singh's comments made during his meeting with Zardari in Russia on Tuesday were unacceptable to Islamabad.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby RajeshA » 17 Jun 2009 18:47

Raja Ram wrote:Some of us may feel that this is wrong, but we do not matter. Cest La vie'


You are throwing in the towel saar! :-o

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby RajeshA » 17 Jun 2009 18:49

SSridhar wrote:Pakistan doesn't like Manmohan Singh's statement

In a statement made in the Senate or Upper House of Parliament, minister of state for foreign affairs Malik Ahmad Khan said Singh's comments made during his meeting with Zardari in Russia on Tuesday were unacceptable to Islamabad.


They ask for talks, and then they don't like what we have to say???? :P Don't talk then!!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 17 Jun 2009 18:52


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Raja Ram » 17 Jun 2009 18:54

RajeshA,

Me throw in the towel, no way! Just stating the reality that is India today. Much as we in this cyberland would like to believe otherwise, the general population does not give a hoot for national security or any such thing. No one is interested. That is truth. It hurts me as much as anyone else.

I will continue in my own small way, in my little corner of India, limited only by my capability to keep squawking and creating awareness.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby RajeshA » 17 Jun 2009 18:59

Raja Ram wrote:RajeshA,

Me throw in the towel, no way! Just stating the reality that is India today. Much as we in this cyberland would like to believe otherwise, the general population does not give a hoot for national security or any such thing. No one is interested. That is truth. It hurts me as much as anyone else.

I will continue in my own small way, in my little corner of India, limited only by my capability to keep squawking and creating awareness.


Going OT here in this thread, but ...
My suggestion to a budding BJP leader would be, fight elections on bread and butter, sadak and bijli, pardai and davaai issues, and leave national security & terrorism for the post-election scene.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby John Snow » 17 Jun 2009 19:18

Everything looks fine and dandy..... but what about the presitige of India, the sovereignty and state that can repulse aggression. Yes it is in India's interest to have rational, sensible Pakistan (terror free), but not at the cost of India's rights.

Paksitan is not the only problem India faces up north and from deep west.

Pakistan is an opportunity for us to assert our freedom and send signals that we have a rightful place in the commity of nations and a not a bearer of orders from masters.

Pakistan is an opportunity to solve our problems created by West, exploited by North. The natural equlibrium needs to restored, we dont need Japanese model ( of economy first, sovereignty later) We Need the chinese model, sovereignty at the expense of subjugating others. Period.

Think India centric not other nation centric.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby SSridhar » 17 Jun 2009 19:43

Folks, breaking news.

Not clear what is happening. But, Times Now is reporting that Karachi & Peshawar airports are closed and there is massive power failure in Karachi. All flights to these two cities are diverted to Islamabad.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Anujan » 17 Jun 2009 19:44

This is old news. But several gems in this article from washingtonpost about "the gentle, dignified bissful Mufti" getting killed so I have included the interesting bits.

Cleric's Slaying Signifies a Shift

The assassination of Naeemi, a scholarly cleric who promoted religious harmony and spoke out against Taliban extremism, has resonated far beyond the blackened walls and shattered windows of the quiet seminary he headed here.

Naeemi was an obvious target. He came from the Barelvi school of Sunni Islam, a moderate sect that has long competed for influence with the harder-line Deobandi sect that spawned the original Taliban in Afghanistan. Naeemi was a leading Barelvi voice against the Taliban, and he had issued a decree against suicide bombings in 2005.

{Which decree ? This one ?}
Scholars condemn suicide bombings
proclamation did not apply to "ongoing struggles" in Kashmir and Palestine.

However, the head of a well-known seminary for mainstream Sunni Muslims in Lahore, Sarfraz Naeemi refused to sign the decree. He says it is a government-sponsored move which could be used by the United States to justify its propaganda against suicide attacks. "There is a need to issue a decree against the Americans who have been slaughtering Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan, so I have serious reservations about the present move," Mr Naeemi said in an interview with the BBC.


Last week, the Taliban issued a public letter against Shiites in a Lahore newspaper, declaring them non-Muslim and ordering them to leave Pakistan, convert or face violent consequences.

"The state must protect the unarmed clergy against the armed clergy, but without empowering the Barelvis as a counterforce against the Taliban," Najam Sethi, editor of the Daily Times newspaper here :rotfl:

Naeemi's son Raghib, 37....In an interview, he described his father as a humble, generous soul who loved to ride his motorbike and watch wrestling on television. "My father was a religious man, but he believed in the writ of the state, he believed in the army, he believed in a stable Pakistan,"....A moment later, however, he veered into a diatribe against the American, Israeli and Indian intelligence services, accusing them of supporting the Taliban in order to destabilize Pakistan and seize control of its nuclear arsenal. It was an argument his father, who was once jailed for opposing Pakistani cooperation with the U.S. military, made as often as he condemned the Taliban.

In other interviews this week, a cross section of the city's residents expressed remarkably similar opinions, as if reading from a script that portrayed the United States as conspiring against Pakistani Muslims, despite the huge quantities of U.S. economic aid being sent here and the thousands of U.S. troops fighting the Taliban in next-door Afghanistan.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Anujan » 17 Jun 2009 19:50

Lahore police claims arresting accused of SL team attack

CCPO Lahore Pervez Rathor Wednesday claimed arresting one of seven men accused of plotting the deadly attack Sri Lankan cricket team at Liberty Chowk in Lahore in March. The CCPO said the arrested man, identified as Aqeel alias Dr. Usman, is an ex-sepoy of Army Medical Store and that he is associated with a banned organization.

He said the arrested disclosed during interrogation that Punjabi Tehreek-e-Taliban was behind the Liberty Chowk attack in Lahore and that it is headed by a man named Farooq. The other accused are Rana Hanif, Zubair alias Naik Muhammad, Smaiullah alias Aijaz, Adnan alias Sajjad and Umer alias Abdul Wahab.


{But I thougut YYY Kanspeeracy agints were involved :(( }

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby RamaY » 17 Jun 2009 20:09

John Snow wrote:Everything looks fine and dandy..... but what about the presitige of India, the sovereignty and state that can repulse aggression. Yes it is in India's interest to have rational, sensible Pakistan (terror free), but not at the cost of India's rights.

Paksitan is not the only problem India faces up north and from deep west.

Pakistan is an opportunity for us to assert our freedom and send signals that we have a rightful place in the commity of nations and a not a bearer of orders from masters.

Pakistan is an opportunity to solve our
{Sub-Continental and Civilizational} problems created by West, exploited by North. The natural equlibrium needs to restored, we dont need Japanese model ( of economy first, sovereignty later) We Need the chinese model, sovereignty at the expense of subjugating others. Period.


Think India centric not other nation centric.



JS ji

1000 years to you!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby CRamS » 17 Jun 2009 20:16

Raja Ram wrote:
SSridhar wrote:US quickly welcomes MMS-Zardari meet

Now, given the vision of a South Asian identity, focus on purely economic growth, and a vision of India as primarily a economic power with some regional influence that can be exerted only in concert with other global powers as the cornerstone of state policy, we are on the "right track". This new approach towards protecting and promoting national interests has the mandate of the people. This is what India wants. And this is what we will get.


I told you this from the day MMS kept mumbling that "India's & TSP's destinies are linked" crap. Here is the amazing work in progress as a result of US influence. Prior to all this globalization nonsense (read Pax Americana), the Indian middle class, while not overtly demanding justice against TSP, were neverthless wary of those pigs. Then here comes globalization, and the US-centric view, a complete, fraudulent view of reality has been lapped up. As you pointed out, in this view, MMS is this great economic visionary, he wants to bring "peace" to India by making India an economic power, and in doing so, TSP will be tagged along (thats the South Asia vision), and everybody will live happily ever after. If you notice carefully, this is exactly what the TSP RAPE have been demanding after each of their LeT assaults and nuke blackmail against India. Furthermore, Hindu assertion, Indian nationalism are equated with TSP terrorism. So the end result, US-scripted propaganda is this: MMS is building bridges despite 'extremists from both sides'; and the Indian middle class is subsumed with this caricature of reality. And most of them are neophytes when it comes to TSP perfidy; all they have heard is the drum beat of some Hindu thugs going and bashing up women in pubs etc, and this coupled with their Oracle and Microsoft dreams means that they are easy prey to brainwashing. Of course, throw in many of India's other failings, and the picture is complete.

But if you were to ask me to name the singular event that has cost India its destiny, I would go back to Pokhran-II. Once TSP burst their Chineses-gifted fire-crackers, India backed off. Thats was when an aggressive, strong, nationalist leadership was needed to force India's case. But instead, recall the Guboing sessions with "my friend Strobe". Indian nationalism was at its zenith then, but TSP upped the ante, and the co called "Hindu nationalist" govt didn't have the stomach to follow through; and it has been downhill since then, with MMS/Sonia who have no stomach for Indian nationalism in the first place, only taking it to the logical end.

I see the next 10-year or so India-TSP game as follows; basically I throw in the towel: India surrenders Kashmir to TSP in slow motion, gradually TSP, especially Pakijabis stabilize, cricket and other love making resumes with US patting both India & Pakijabis on their backs; all this while TSP gains strength to fight another day.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby ramana » 17 Jun 2009 20:30

Anujan, So what the NYT is saying is the intra-Sunni fights are reaching a crescendo.

However a few years back the entire Barelvi leadership was killed in bomb blast in Karachi. So whats differenet this time?

The Taliban call to the Shiites is same as previous ones by Sipah-e-Saheba a gang of sarkari Sunni Islamistss sponsored by the TSPA.

So its not Taliban but Pakiban call.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Vinod Ji » 17 Jun 2009 20:36

Peshawar airport sealed flights diverted to islamabad says dawn in breaking news
Last edited by Vinod Ji on 17 Jun 2009 20:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Dilbu » 17 Jun 2009 20:48


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby RayC » 17 Jun 2009 21:01

Mutiny in 3 Pak infantry brigades?

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/index.php? ... ssueid=110

Goodness Gracious!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby IndraD » 17 Jun 2009 21:17

Ya here also it is reported along with video

http://headlinestoday.intoday.in/index. ... eoid=46847

Dear RayC sir what implications does mutiny in a brigade means? Is it serious? Sorry in advance for a basic question, but Im curious.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Anujan » 17 Jun 2009 21:30

IndraD wrote:Ya here also it is reported along with video

http://headlinestoday.intoday.in/index. ... eoid=46847

Dear RayC sir what implications does mutiny in a brigade means? Is it serious? Sorry in advance for a basic question, but Im curious.


The headline is slightly misleading. Cases of mutiny have been reported from three brigades. It is not the case that 3 *entire* brigades are mutinying. In any case, this is a good start.

About the airports being closed. Crown jewels being moved ? Or was the blast "heard" this morning have to do anything with it.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby symontk » 17 Jun 2009 21:33

There is no getting away for India from US pressure to talk.

So India has to find things that it can talk to Pakistan and also US has suggested joint solutions for the Terror threat that Pakistan is facing.

Pakistan as a state is whole heartedly founded, funded & supported by UK, Saudi, US and China in that order. It is very difficult for these countries to wish away Pakistan being disintegrated. So it is upon India to decide what it needs to do in this situation

US Army came to Afghanistan for a specific puprose, that being to drain the swap which creates the terrorists. The swamp as now identified by US experts lies in Afghanistan and West Bank of Indus. The Eastern side of Indus is not affected by Terrorism.

Pakistani elite mainly consists of people from Punjab and more or less from Sindh. They are seeing their own brethern on the West Bank of Indus together with Afghan neighbours. Also Pakistani elite considers Afghanistan as their strategic backyard. They would like to retain that position at whatever cost. One way to get back the strategic backyard is to cede the control to Non-State actors. This would give them plausible deniability which they need for various activities that is planned against west and India.

Taliban also cannot gain massive victory in East pakistan soon. It will take another day to accomplish the mission.

If there exists a region in West Bank of Indus outside the Pakistan / Afghan control, that comprise of the Taliban elements, it should solve all the problems for all the actors. Its win win situation for all. Basically to solve the Afghan crisis, there needs to be created another Afghanisthan so that all concentration is there.

For Pakistan, it gives plausible deniability. For US & India, it can carry on with the predator hunts without any stoppage. For pakistani elites, there still exists a nation called Pakistan and there is an area into which you can dump all criminal elements in the soceity so that it can be peaceful with itself.

My idea is that India should promote the idea of Indus West Bank thru US actively and push for it.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby John Snow » 17 Jun 2009 21:53

There never was a congruency between US and India in world affairs nor will they be so in future.
It is now 8 years after 9-11, our LKg and Shree brilliant MK Narayana garu went to Dupleecity with loads of files under their armpit to show that TSP is the problem and what did uncle do grant Billions in cash kind write offs and free armaments! :roll: Even now uncle thinks if India gives away territory, goodies TSP will be nice to India. Taliban, Mujhadeen, Kargil, AlQ, WOT, now POW (Peace On World) are all uncles ba$tard$. It wants India to be sacrifice at POW.

Only a leadership of India can fall for uncle, any one from the rest of the world would care too hoots beyond a point.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby faraz » 17 Jun 2009 22:13

RayC wrote:Mutiny in 3 Pak infantry brigades?

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/index.php? ... ssueid=110

Goodness Gracious!


Where are Zaid 'Zhutan' Hamid and Ahmed 'Chuha' Qureshi :D ? I am waiting to hear their Expert Comments on this. :eek:

Jalebi Memon :wink: can give us a brief lecture on this after we hear words of wisdom from these know-it-all dudes

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Anujan » 17 Jun 2009 22:37

Take it FWIW

All of Karachi without electricity: KESC

The entire city was plunged into darkness on Wednesday evening after a major 600MW disruption from Wapda cascaded through the system, DawnNews quoted KESC officials as saying.


Peshawar airport shut down after threat

Peshawar International Airport was shut down on Wednesday after intelligence report warned of a possible terrorist attack against civilian aircraft from a militant group based in the adjoining tribal region, officials said.

.... airport would remain closed till Thursday night but the issuance of a Notam implied that it would remain shut till the situation stabilized. ‘Looks like it is indefinite,’ the official said.

...passengers said that they were informed by the terminal staff that there would be no flight operations for next three days...All entry points to the airport were closed and passengers said that they saw movement of troops.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby Chandragupta » 17 Jun 2009 22:45

CRamS wrote:
I see the next 10-year or so India-TSP game as follows; basically I throw in the towel: India surrenders Kashmir to TSP in slow motion, gradually TSP, especially Pakijabis stabilize, cricket and other love making resumes with US patting both India & Pakijabis on their backs; all this while TSP gains strength to fight another day.


Throw in the Nobel piss prize & the general population is happy as well. Just like they celebrated Slumdog Millionaire, our people will celebrate the nobel piss prize for Sardar jee or by then Rahul Baba, and we will sing Jai Ho onlee.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby milindc » 17 Jun 2009 22:56


News to me is that there is an airport in Peshawar :rotfl:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 16 2009

Postby John Snow » 17 Jun 2009 22:59

Notice none of the US Media CNN, MSNBC, etc have picked up the news from TSP. Just a pointer to show the media is programed to fit the revolutions ( Surya ji please take note)

US media is the most embeded :mrgreen:


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