Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby NRao » 30 Mar 2009 08:08

FEW words mr. SARAN is not fool sir


No body claimed he was!!

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby tejas » 30 Mar 2009 08:25

This 600 crore "business charge" if real, can only be baksheesh. One thing I have never understood is the pathetically short range of Akash. 27 km is too short ranged for a modern medium range SAM. With all the new technologies ( and thus interminable time) that have gone into this project, could not the range issue been addressed simultaneously.

The armed forces can't be blamed for not wanting a large number of such short legged missiles.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Philip » 30 Mar 2009 13:39

This scandal will not go away,as in Israel itself,its very own president has been held up for sexual harrassment charges.Theer will be serious questions asked both in israel and India.The whole deal looks fishy to me,as why where there no other SAM manufacturers asked to tender? If we can have tenders for helos and MMRCA aircraft,why the preferentiual treatment for an Israeli company ,or a company from any other country? The product is also one under development and if as alleged by the DRDO chief,that they were blackmailed into agreeing for ony two Akash squadrons,it is a sad moment.The sped with whcih thed eal was completed on the eve of the elections will make it a campaign issue and even after the elctions has the potential to become another Bofors.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1074540.html

Media allege corruption in massive Israel-India arms deal

By Yossi Melman

Tags: India, Israel News, IAI

Allegations of possible illegalities in a massive arms deal between Israel and India have surfaced over the weekend in the Indian media. The size of the deal between the Indian Ministry of Defense and Israel Aerospace Industries, estimated at $1.5 billion, had grown to allow for the payment of commissions, which is illegal in India, said the press there.

The deal in question, signed in late February between Israel Aerospace Industries and the Indian Defense Ministry, is for the delivery of 2,000 Barak Mark VIII missiles, which were originally designed as sea-based weapons.

According to the deal, a third of the value of the deal will be spent in India, where the IAI will make offset purchases from Tata, a local consortium.

An Indian daily from New Delhi, DNA, says it has information showing that $120 million of the overall deal is described as "business expenses." According to Josy Joseph, a journalist, officials familiar with the deal told him that an IAI representative explained these costs are meant to cover insurance, bank and transportation costs.

However, the newspaper hypothesizes the actual payments are for commissions, or even bribes, for senior Indian government officials who approved the deal.

IAI refused to comment on Saturday, but Israeli sources familiar with the deal said the entire process followed regulations and was clean.

Last week IAI filed a report with the regulatory authorities here that it had concluded a $1.4 billion deal but did not specify the country. Indian sources said New Delhi had requested the deal be kept secret.

The newspaper notes (although does not offer details) that Elul, a subsidiary of Elul Asia, belonging to David Kolitz and Israel Yaniv, was also involved in the deal. According to the report, Elul is known for its ties to Tata.

Nine years ago, Yaniv retired from the weapons development authority Rafael, where he worked in marketing, and then joined Elul, setting up a subsidiary where Elul is a co-owner.

Rafael is also involved in the deal, as a subcontractor in the manufacturing of the Barak missiles, but the extent of its role in the project is not known.

The links between Elul and Indian business activities are, according to the daily, based on ties with the Indian businessman Sudhir Chowdhary, who resides in Britain.

"The Israelis joined up with Chowdhary for him to manage their contacts in India with officials in government and the army," according to the newspaper.

Kolitz said in response that he is not involved in any arms deal and has no ties with Chowdhary. "I wish I could benefit from a 6 percent commission," he said.

The daily maintains that Chowdhary has family connections with a senior minister in the Indian government and with senior army officials.

His name had previously been linked by the Indian media to another Israeli arms company, Soltam, in relation to a deal for an upgrade of artillery, in which there were suspicions of wrong doing.

The report in DNA raises questions about the new arms deal, including the actual approval of the deal by the government, which is currently led by the Congress Party; its head, Sonia Gandhi, is under investigation for her role in an earlier deal for Barak missiles, from the 1990s.

The newspaper article questions how it was possible to approve the deal on the day parliamentary elections (for the lower house) were declared, when Indian governments are forbidden from doing so since the deals will be binding on the incoming government.


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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby AmitR » 30 Mar 2009 13:55

Philip wrote:This scandal will not go away,as in Israel itself,its very own president has been held up for sexual harrassment charges.Theer will be serious questions asked both in israel and India.The whole deal looks fishy to me,as why where there no other SAM manufacturers asked to tender? If we can have tenders for helos and MMRCA aircraft,why the preferentiual treatment for an Israeli company ,or a company from any other country? The product is also one under development and if as alleged by the DRDO chief,that they were blackmailed into agreeing for ony two Akash squadrons,it is a sad moment.The sped with whcih thed eal was completed on the eve of the elections will make it a campaign issue and even after the elctions has the potential to become another Bofors.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1074540.html



Oh God no, not again!

But remember once the Bofors deal was scrapped, it was India that had to suffer. After 20 years we still don't have a good artillery gun in the Bofors category. I hope this deal does not go the Bofors way and hurt us in the long run. Good luck!

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Willy » 30 Mar 2009 15:43

Article in the latest India today says that the govt is about to sign a deal for 6 Airbus-300 aerial tankers over the IL-78's.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby AmitR » 30 Mar 2009 16:09

Willy wrote:Article in the latest India today says that the govt is about to sign a deal for 6 Airbus-300 aerial tankers over the IL-78's.


Why do I have a feeling that India is slowly moving the way of Pakistan. USA used Pakistan against Russia and look what it has become, a failed state and terrorist haven. Is the USA going to start the next great game with India as a piece against China? :shock:

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Rupak » 30 Mar 2009 16:27

The Airbus offers certain advantages compared to the IL-76. The most significant of these are include:
1. Can be used for transporting both men and fuel, without a change in configuration.
2. Greater range.
3. Greater up-time.

On the negative side is:
1. Loss of commonality with existing type.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby saptarishi » 30 Mar 2009 16:38

its not a300 but A340 MRTT,THE MOst powerful tanker transpot aircraft in the world

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby AmitR » 30 Mar 2009 17:13

saptarishi wrote:its not a300 but A340 MRTT,THE MOst powerful tanker transpot aircraft in the world

Can it be used along with our existing Russian and French a/c without any modifications or are we planning to get American fighter a/c along with the tankers.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby vavinash » 30 Mar 2009 20:11

Yes the french also use probe and drouge system for refueling.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Anurag » 30 Mar 2009 20:14

Rupak wrote:The Airbus offers certain advantages compared to the IL-76. The most significant of these are include:
1. Can be used for transporting both men and fuel, without a change in configuration.
2. Greater range.
3. Greater up-time.

On the negative side is:
1. Loss of commonality with existing type.


I would add, that the existing Airbus MRO facilities opening up in India also makes sense for this purchase!

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Raj Malhotra » 30 Mar 2009 21:01

A340MRTT may also be DDM and it may only be considered but having said that with problems in Il-76-78 deliveries, we should look at Airbus for future platform for tankers, AWACS etc.

Now to missile news:-


1. If TATA is the integrator, then it will be a first when for such a big contract, a Pvt company is the integrator.

2. If 2000 Missiles are to be made then this deal is much bigger then US$ 1.4 Billion and the Israeli share would be around US$ 1.4 Billion less offsets. My guess is that the total production run would be as much as US$ 6 Billion over time.

3. Business charge is small issue, and frankly if it is good deal otherwise then a non-issue. Rs 600 crores over 13 years is small amount (relatively)

4. If the tech is transferred and TATAs are able to absorb it then it will have a huge impact on Indian military infrastructure.

5. The delivers are to begin in 6-7 years which is adequate time for 5-10 squadrons of Akash missile to be delivered in the interragnum.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby sunilUpa » 30 Mar 2009 21:12

Willy wrote:Article in the latest India today says that the govt is about to sign a deal for 6 Airbus-300 aerial tankers over the IL-78's.



Weapons of choice

Senior Defence Ministry officials confirmed that a 1-billion euro contract for six Airbus A-330 multi-role tanker-transports is close to being finalised. This despite the makers of the Russian IL-78 tanker, six of which the IAF has in service, offering a lower bid.

The IAF chose Airbus for its larger fuel load and its dual transport capability

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby sum » 30 Mar 2009 22:01

Willy wrote:Article in the latest India today says that the govt is about to sign a deal for 6 Airbus-300 aerial tankers over the IL-78's.

Just when i was thinking that IAF was trying hard to get rid of its circus like image(operating all possible aircraft), it seems to be at it again.

Firstly, the scrapping of follow on Hawk orders and looking for a new aircraft and now a new set of tankers...Only hope that IAF doesn't change its mind after getting the six new tankers and resort back to the Il-78s for its next follow-on order!!!!

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby sarang » 30 Mar 2009 22:20

I think its a good move to have two different types of tankers. IL-78MKI is good for short and medium range requirements (Pak Centric), whereas A-330MRTT is good for long range requirements (Cheen specific) as it gives us a real benefit for heavy fighters and cargo to extend their range.

JMT.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby b_patel » 30 Mar 2009 22:54

The whole deal looks fishy to me,as why where there no other SAM manufacturers asked to tender? If we can have tenders for helos and MMRCA aircraft,why the preferentiual treatment for an Israeli company ,or a company from any other country?

Who would you send tenders to for SAM's? the russians (S300, S400), the french (Aster 30), US(Pac-3)? You do know how long the tendering process takes in India right? Why would you bother waiting for years to choose a winner, then then however long it would take to induct the missile when you could have Israel make it for you in a shorter amount of time. Preferential treatment is given to Israeli companies b/c they deliver on time, their products are always great, and they won't stab you in the back when it comes to TOT and spares.

The armed forces can't be blamed for not wanting a large number of such short legged missiles.

Seriously why would you want a missile that has such short range, especially in the numbers they are talking about? Why is it the armed forces fault for wanting the best missiles, its not their fault that the Akash isn't up to par. If it was this deal wouldn't have happened.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Katare » 30 Mar 2009 23:00

AmitR wrote:
Willy wrote:Article in the latest India today says that the govt is about to sign a deal for 6 Airbus-300 aerial tankers over the IL-78's.


Why do I have a feeling that India is slowly moving the way of Pakistan. USA used Pakistan against Russia and look what it has become, a failed state and terrorist haven. Is the USA going to start the next great game with India as a piece against China? :shock:


What is the US connection here?

Airbus is an EU product!

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Uttam » 30 Mar 2009 23:14

sum wrote:
Willy wrote:Article in the latest India today says that the govt is about to sign a deal for 6 Airbus-300 aerial tankers over the IL-78's.

Just when i was thinking that IAF was trying hard to get rid of its circus like image(operating all possible aircraft), it seems to be at it again.



Well, a case can me made for sourcing tankers (or any other equipment) from different countries. Though it tends to be costly for various reasons listed in this or other threads, it does offer one advantage that IAF is less likely to feel held up by a single supplier. Sourcing diversification is way to reduce the leverage the supplier can have if all the sourcing is done from one single supplier.

My 2 new paise....

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby JTull » 31 Mar 2009 02:26

When the Midas were bought, I doubt any of the western options would have been available to India. They learnt the ropes on those and now are going for what they think is the best long term bet. We should expect similar news with the radome-less phalcons in future.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby abrahavt » 31 Mar 2009 03:59

Didn't the PAF buy Midas Tankers recently. I am sure this is also to send a message to Russians that if you sell to the Pukes dont expect any more business from us.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby ticky » 31 Mar 2009 04:13

^ Pukes got theirs from Ukrainia.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby NRao » 31 Mar 2009 23:54


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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Vivek K » 01 Apr 2009 01:48

Guess I missed it folks. Did PAF get IL-78s from Ukraine? How many?

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby andy B » 01 Apr 2009 03:52



:-? The above item says that Yindia already operates 12 IL78s. I remember there were a few articles stating that an additional order for 6 IL78s was signed as a follow on to the first six :?:

So how many IL78s do we actually operate??? :evil:

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Anurag » 01 Apr 2009 04:37

I believe there were plans to buy six more IL-78s, but that has now changed to six A-330 refuelers.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Lalmohan » 01 Apr 2009 15:24

undoubtedly the A330 will be a superior tanker and freighter to the older Il76/78. However, since it does not have a tail ramp - the mode of (loading and unloading and hence) operations, will be more strategic than tactical. I see it as being great at moving large numbers of troops and infantry equipment between well provisioned air bases, but I struggle to see it delivering tanks.

perhaps the Il76 will fulfil that role, and the An32 replacement will continue with the more tactical forward resupply flying

not to mention the delight of aircrews who will come pre-qualified to fly in civil airlines post retirement!

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby srai » 02 Apr 2009 04:30

sum wrote:
Willy wrote:Article in the latest India today says that the govt is about to sign a deal for 6 Airbus-300 aerial tankers over the IL-78's.

Just when i was thinking that IAF was trying hard to get rid of its circus like image(operating all possible aircraft), it seems to be at it again.

Firstly, the scrapping of follow on Hawk orders and looking for a new aircraft and now a new set of tankers...Only hope that IAF doesn't change its mind after getting the six new tankers and resort back to the Il-78s for its next follow-on order!!!!


IL-78s could be converted to purely transport role in the future to supplement its IL-76 fleet. IAF could then standardize its tanker fleet to be all A330 MRTTs. This could be possible.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby rkhanna » 03 Apr 2009 15:04

India and Russia place order for 40 Il-476's (heavily modified Il-76)

http://www.royfc.com/acft_news.html

Forty Il-476 for the Military


Ul'yanovsk's Aviastar-SP, included in the Unified Airplane Building Corporation, plans to enter into contracts for the delivery to the Russian Federation defense ministry and Indian air force more than 40 Il-476 airplanes, the plant's general director, Mikhail Shushpanov, reported yesterday. According to him, corresponding memoranda already have been signed. The first airplane is supposed to be ready in mid-2010.

Source: 01.04.09, Vedomosti-Povolzh'e



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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby PaulJI » 03 Apr 2009 19:26

saptarishi wrote:its not a300 but A340 MRTT,THE MOst powerful tanker transpot aircraft in the world

No, A330 MRTT. There is no A340 MRTT, only the A310 (modified from used aircraft) & A330 (new built).

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby sarang » 03 Apr 2009 21:06

rkhanna wrote:India and Russia place order for 40 Il-476's (heavily modified Il-76)

http://www.royfc.com/acft_news.html

Forty Il-476 for the Military


Ul'yanovsk's Aviastar-SP, included in the Unified Airplane Building Corporation, plans to enter into contracts for the delivery to the Russian Federation defense ministry and Indian air force more than 40 Il-476 airplanes, the plant's general director, Mikhail Shushpanov, reported yesterday. According to him, corresponding memoranda already have been signed. The first airplane is supposed to be ready in mid-2010.

Source: 01.04.09, Vedomosti-Povolzh'e




:eek: :eek:

6 seems very high number why do Indian armed forces buy them in such large quantities.

Look at cheen, America, Russia etc. they buy/build in 10's or 100's ONLY.

We cross the digit 10 very rarely and 100's once in a century perhaps. except bullets and guns like 100 TAR-21 with 1,000 bullets.
Wonder how they will fight if cheeni attacked. Or is it like we are prepared for pakis only.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby krishnan » 03 Apr 2009 21:13

What are you going to do with 10's of them? Trying to compare planes to bullets?

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby sarang » 03 Apr 2009 21:22

krishnan wrote:What are you going to do with 10's of them? Trying to compare planes to bullets?


No not at all, Just asking why in half dozens when you need in two or three.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Vick » 04 Apr 2009 07:44

A pretty insightful article on the sorry state of defense acquisition in India by Admiral Arun Prakash (Retd): Clicky

To summarize, he's saying that the biggest problems in the acquisition process are:
1) Absolutely no coordination in synergyzing a cohesive acquisition policy to futher overall national goals.
2) Complete lack of effects based operational planning to arrive at acquisition priorities.
3) Lack of jointness in highest levels of the military has led to protecting the rice bowl mentality in each of the services.
4) Lack of political will to de-politicize and insulate large acquistions from political machinations.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby shiv » 04 Apr 2009 08:14

sarang wrote:
:eek: :eek:

6 seems very high number why do Indian armed forces buy them in such large quantities.

Look at cheen, America, Russia etc. they buy/build in 10's or 100's ONLY.

We cross the digit 10 very rarely and 100's once in a century perhaps. except bullets and guns like 100 TAR-21 with 1,000 bullets.
Wonder how they will fight if cheeni attacked. Or is it like we are prepared for pakis only.



I believe there are 2 reasons

1) Reason 1 is partly what you have surmised. India has until recently used its "We are poor and peaceful onlee" hijab to keep our requirements to a bare minumum. But add to that the fact that in this case you are comparing with a superpower that had a global presence and built and bought stuff to match that.

2) In the specific case of transports I suspect there is a deeper reason. Land transport by train and road in India is both realistic, widespread, present all year round and relatively fast compared with Russia. Russia feeds a lot of far flung flat steppes by air in ways that cannot be achieved by land transport because of sheer size and remoteness.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby sarang » 04 Apr 2009 11:12

shiv wrote:
sarang wrote:
:eek: :eek:

6 seems very high number why do Indian armed forces buy them in such large quantities.

Look at cheen, America, Russia etc. they buy/build in 10's or 100's ONLY.

We cross the digit 10 very rarely and 100's once in a century perhaps. except bullets and guns like 100 TAR-21 with 1,000 bullets.
Wonder how they will fight if cheeni attacked. Or is it like we are prepared for pakis only.



I believe there are 2 reasons

1) Reason 1 is partly what you have surmised. India has until recently used its "We are poor and peaceful onlee" hijab to keep our requirements to a bare minumum. But add to that the fact that in this case you are comparing with a superpower that had a global presence and built and bought stuff to match that.

2) In the specific case of transports I suspect there is a deeper reason. Land transport by train and road in India is both realistic, widespread, present all year round and relatively fast compared with Russia. Russia feeds a lot of far flung flat steppes by air in ways that cannot be achieved by land transport because of sheer size and remoteness.


1) I think we are not in a position nor wish to compare with super-powers (or should I say dummy super-powers like Cheen) at least numerically. I must agree that we are quality than quantity oriented forces (read Cheen). But still 6 IS a very low in numbers, a atleast a dozen seems OK.

2) I agree to it; but I think in land transport (Rail or Road) it take a plenty of time to transport supplies to a distance say 1,000 km although I must agree you get the supplies in larger quantities. For Blitzkreig type of skirmishes we need supplies in much shorter time and much lesser in quantity. that's why I think the transporters should be in larger quantities.

JMT



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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Hiten » 11 Apr 2009 11:08


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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby JaiS » 17 Apr 2009 06:19

Thales announces official creation of Samtel-Thales Avionics Pvt. Ltd.

European aerosapce major Thales announced Thursday it had received official authorisation from the Foreign Investment Promotion Board to form a joint venture company with India's Samtel Avionics Ltd. to locally develop and produce helmet-mounted sight and display systems for Indian Air Force (IAF) combat jets.

Samtel-Thales Avionics Ltd. is Thales's second JV in India, the first being with Rolta Ltd., 'and the official approval of the JV company is entirely in line with Thales's ambition to become a local player,' it said in a statement.

Boeing plans bids for $2 bln India defence deals

"We are very keen to offer our Apache AH-64 helicopters to India and we have already responded to their request for information on our product," Vivek Lall, India country head of Boeing's Integrated Defense Systems (IDS), told Reuters.

Senior defence officials said the new tender for the two deals was likely to come after the April/May general election. "We will be very happy to bid after scrutinising the details," Lall told Reuters in an interview on Wednesday.

Boeing also plans to bid for a separate $1 billion deal to supply at least a dozen heavy-lift helicopters to the Indian Air Force, with Lall saying the U.S. plane maker was interested in offering its Chinook CH-47.

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby LokeshP » 17 Apr 2009 13:48

didn't Boeing back out of the Attack Helicopter competition for IAF, sometime i september of last year or so?


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