Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Kakkaji » 31 Oct 2009 02:03

Though not really about Pakistan, but the following is an interesting excerpt from this week's TFT:

Dara’s begum

Saad Sarfraz Sheikh
recounts the life of Nadira, a great lady

Nadira Begum remains a silent spectator, watching cricket and soccer balls often being hit into her tomb. She lies there, a regally royal entity, listening to the ghosts of the past talk about the faded glory of the Mughal Empire, which was once the richest in the world

Aurangzeb, driven by his ambition and fanatical views, seized the throne and eventually defeated his secular brother Dara Shikoh, who was said to be tolerant, wise and admired by many. After two major wars, Dara was arrested by Aurangzeb in Balochistan, brought to Delhi and executed

Finding Nadira Begum’s tomb isn’t hard since it is right next to Sufi Saint Hazrat Mian Mir’s shrine.

Nadira Saleem Banu was the wife of Mughal Prince Dara Shikoh, the ill-fated heir to Shah Jahan’s throne and the crown prince of his Indian empire.

She died in 1659, several months before Dara Shikoh’s execution, and was survived by two daughters. No sons survived thanks to Aurangzeb Alamgir, who got rid of all male threats to his succession as emperor.

Stories of Nadira Banu’s beauty and intelligence were legendary throughout the empire. She was the daughter of Shah Jahan’s half-brother, Prince Perwez, and therefore Dara Shikoh’s cousin. Her would-be husband was eager to marry her and had a good relationship with her throughout his turbulent life. He never remarried, in spite of the common Mughal practice of persistent polygamy and overflowing harems. Shah Jahan’s wife Mumtaz Mahal, Dara’s mother, arranged the marriage when both Dara and Nadira were teenagers. Dara Shikoh’s sister Jahanara Begum got along with Nadira quite well, as reflected by her involvement and interest in Nadira’s wedding.

With the death of Mumtaz Mahal, arrangements for the wedding ceased as Shah Jahan and his India plunged into mourning. After much coaxing by many, especially Jahanara, Shah Jahan resumed life and let her oversee the remaining aspects of the wedding. Jahanara had always visibly supported Dara over Aurengzeb and never hesitated in demonstrating that. Jahanara’s love for Dara strengthened her relationship with Nadira and after her death she left her fortune to one of Nadira’s daughters. Auragzeb once openly asked Jahanara if she would support him in his bid for the crown but she refused. Despite this event and her undying loyalty to Dara, she was made the head of the harem in Aurangzeb’s court.

Aurangzeb, driven by his ambition and fanatical views, seized the throne and eventually defeated his moderate and secular brother Dara Shikoh, who was said to be tolerant, wise and admired by many. Two major wars were waged between them, and Dara was defeated in both. In 1659 he lost another war with fate while escaping to Dadhar (Balochistan) en route to Iran, when his wife Nadira Begam died of exhaustion and dysentery. Sunk in despair, Darà Shikoh dispatched his remaining soldiers to escort his beloved wife’s dead body to Lahore. In accordance with her wish to be buried in Hindustan, he instructed that she should be laid to rest near the shrine of his spiritual guide Hazrat Mian Mir. Dara was later arrested near the Bolan Pass by the forces of Aurangzeb, was taken to Delhi and was executed.

It is interesting to note that moderates and extremists have often clashed in history. While Aurangzeb despised the arts, his brother Dara was said to be a fine painter and poet. Many of his works were collected and gifted to Nadira Begum in 1641. It was due to her affection for him because of which that she cherished them until her death. Titled the ‘Dara Shikoh Album’, it was a collection of paintings and calligraphy assembled from the 1630s until his death.

After her death the album was taken into the royal library and the inscriptions connecting it with Dara Shikoh were deliberately erased; however not everything was vandalised and many pieces of calligraphy, scripts and paintings still bear his mark. Some of the surviving works were recently on display at a British museum.


Wonder how different the history of the subcontinent would have been, if Dara Shikoh had defeated Aurangzeb instead of vice versa that actually happened.

Dara was said to be truly secular. He translated sacred Hindu texts from Sanskrit to Persian.

I think the least the seculars in Delhi should do is rename Aurangzeb Road as Dara Shikoh Road. Dara was the true secular, far ahead of them in time.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby ramana » 31 Oct 2009 02:14

All would be singing sufi songs and calling our selves Rahim and Rehman.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Kakkaji » 31 Oct 2009 02:29

ramana wrote:All would be singing sufi songs and calling our selves Rahim and Rehman.


:eek:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Mahendra » 31 Oct 2009 02:42

Why Ramanaji?

Hindustan survived despite the deen e elahi scam by Akbar
Why would Dara Shikoh be any different? given that (by most accounts) he was more secular than Arundhati Roy

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Kedar » 31 Oct 2009 03:47

Vaman and Kakkaji:

Ramana is right. Sufism was like a wolf in sheep's clothing. I had made a post to a blog in the Guardiban as KedarB. Pakistan's 'heretical' Muslims I will repost my entire response later in this post. However, let's not overlook something. Just because Pakistan is screwing some people today does not mean that historically they had clean hands especially against Hindus and Sikhs. For example, the Ahmediyyas were one of the biggest financiers of Jinnah and proponents of Pakistan.

Now as to Dara Shikoh he may have been secular but the guys around him may not. Even Akbar for all his "secular" leanings still treated Hindus as second-class citizens though not as bad as many others.

==============================================

Sufism is overrated. It used to be a wolf in sheep's clothing. Their role was similar to that of the Catholic missionaries and Protestant Evangelicals. One might think that these were doing God's work but these people used to be like early foot soldiers in colonial conquests. For European conquerors, many a times missionaries would go to "Heathen" lands in Africa, Latin America and Asia; scout it out and then on some pretext or the other in the form of "civilizing" the heathens, the European conquerors would come in. Sufi saints played a similar role in Islamic conquests much more than the Sunni or Shia Imams or Maulvis. Sufism is much more prominent in Central Asia (the Stans) and Kurdistan. It is no coincidence that the Indian Subcontinent used to have most of the Islamic Conquests from Afghanistan or Central Asia rather than Arabia or Iran. Even though the SW frontier in Pakistan (currently Baluchistan) was much more vulnerable than the NW frontier in Pakistan (currently Pakhtoonistan). The NW frontier was much more treacherous and mountainous rather than the plainy SW frontier. Many a brutal Central Asian conqueror like Tamerlane or Babar received their inspirations from Sufi saints. Even Aurangzeb had Sufi spiritual advisors. Sufi saints had a big role in instigating Islamic rulers to move against idolators.

If Sufism ceased to be a major threat then it is primarily because in the seventeenth and eighteenth century with the advent of modern weaponery, the cavalry's role started diminishing and the Central Asians lost their advantage of equastrian skills. Russia and China were able to conquer parts of them. However, the biggest credit for bottling up the fanaticism in that region should go to the Russians and later the Soviets. Even now it is strong former Communist dictators like Nursultan Nazarbayev and Islam Karimov who keep that region in check. If Central Asia ever explodes in Islamic fanaticism then it will make the Jihadism in Arabia and Pakistan like Boy Scouts.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Prem » 31 Oct 2009 04:30

vaman wrote:Why Ramanaji?

Hindustan survived despite the deen e elahi scam by Akbar
Why would Dara Shikoh be any different? given that (by most accounts) he was more secular than Arundhati Roy


Imagine the destruction of spiritual enquiry on sacred soil and society steeped dep in BCgiri. Pakjabis also take pride in suffis and then go home to marry their sisters and gladly give birth to rat children not knowing the animal nature of practice. We should be rightfully proud of millions who gave their life resisting such froces and never gave up.
It could have blurred the distinctive lines between us and them , good vs bad , spirituality vs Bookmentality. Yes it could have gone other way and finished the Mullaslam but with Mughals still holding power, the chances were negligent. I think Aurangjeb ended up doing us favour by showing the true face of Islamist doctrine. The very thought of Indic society falling to the level of animal natured society next door give me chills. Good thing happened after the demise of Auaranga as within short period both Mughal Khandan and rule were finished. His mentor Sirhindi has a majar in Sirhind .I have promised myself to erect a huge bill board in front of that building ,so every Hanood and Sikh will be able to read about thisSufiis karttootts against Kaffirs.
Last edited by Prem on 31 Oct 2009 05:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Prem » 31 Oct 2009 05:03

Delete Dupe

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby pgbhat » 31 Oct 2009 05:39

Mr Singh’s hidden ‘precondition’ ----- DT edit :((
Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh says there is “no precondition” for talks with Pakistan except that Pakistan should bring its terrorists under “effective control”. How else does one impose a precondition? The entire world is worried about Pakistan’s capacity to bring its terrorists under control and is helping it acquire that capacity. India should realise that it is isolating itself globally by putting the condition of removing terrorism on Pakistan before it begins talking.

India is in many ways crucial to Pakistan’s efforts at stamping out the disease of terrorism it has contracted. It is threatened from within as never before in its history but because of India’s obstinacy is forced to designate India as the bigger enemy than the Taliban and Al Qaeda. In fact, the strategy is to accuse India of funding rebellions inside Pakistan and thus explain the ongoing bilateral tension. It is only after “normalising” relations with India that it can free up enough troops from its eastern border to fight the terrorists.


Domestic political compulsions have deterred Mr Singh from reaping the moral advantage he had over Pakistan after the Mumbai attacks. He was not overly enthusiastic about Pakistan at Sharm al-Sheikh but was pilloried when he returned home. Pakistan was flexible before Sharm al-Sheikh but afterwards bent to domestic compulsions, and Prime Minister Gilani began putting Kashmir on the front-burner. Now even Mr Nawaz Sharif is talking tough on Kashmir so as not to be worsted by the new rhetoric in Islamabad.

India needs to come out of its posture of “policy nirvana” and take a careful look at where South Asia stands today with two SAARC members — Afghanistan and Pakistan — in dire straits. This is the time to talk and change the old postures that have perpetuated conflict in the region.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby ramana » 31 Oct 2009 05:59

Kedar, Long time no see. How are things?
Thanks for stepping in.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby sanjaykumar » 31 Oct 2009 06:02

It is juma din and no visit from Ed Mubarak.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Kedar » 31 Oct 2009 06:27

ramana wrote:Kedar, Long time no see. How are things?
Thanks for stepping in.


You are welcome. Things are good. Really busy with work so in a way it is profitable. Do lurk around here and India Forum though.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby shiv » 31 Oct 2009 06:44

I am no expert on Sufism - but it seems to me that Sufism is akin to a burkha covering a naked woman that is held in place by a single button. It appears to be a "dilution of core principles" in the direction away from "deen". It looks like a "Let me hedge my bets" type of behavior that allows one to get away with either strict Islam or something less than that. It is a door that allows kafirs to expose themselves to Islam without commitment - like pre-marital touchy-feely.

It falls into what I had (long ago) characterized as the "interface" between Islam and kafirdom. A "surfactant" that allows Islam to exist as an emulsion in stable suspension when Islam is actually insoluble/immiscible in an excess of unislamic practices.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Johann » 31 Oct 2009 07:05

shiv wrote:I am no expert on Sufism - but it seems to me that Sufism is akin to a burkha covering a naked woman that is held in place by a single button. It appears to be a "dilution of core principles" in the direction away from "deen". It looks like a "Let me hedge my bets" type of behavior that allows one to get away with either strict Islam or something less than that. It is a door that allows kafirs to expose themselves to Islam without commitment - like pre-marital touchy-feely.

It falls into what I had (long ago) characterized as the "interface" between Islam and kafirdom. A "surfactant" that allows Islam to exist as an emulsion in stable suspension when Islam is actually insoluble/immiscible in an excess of unislamic practices.


Sufism remained an integral part of Muslim life even in areas that were overwhelmingly Muslim for centuries, like North Africa, or the Egyptian Delta, or Central Asia.

Its true that some Sufism got funky (by orthodox Muslim standards) by placing achieving union with God (which crept in with the Persians) over obeying all the Islamic laws.

However Sufism wasnt just for the peasants whose women worked in the fields with colorful scarves but no veils, or the rich who liked to drink like fish and talk atheist philosophy. There were no shortage of utterly orthodox Sunnis who embraced it as well - in fact the largest Sufi orders like the Qadris and Naqshbandis are quite orthodox.

Islam can be awfully legalistic, a bunch of dos and do nots. For the many, many Muslims who wanted a spiritual life, Sufism was the only outlet.

In fact it is in the modern era that Sufis have shrunk drastically, under the attack of secular rationalist thought which questions the meaning or value of any sort of spiritual life. The most anti-sufi legalist elements of Islam like the Hanbalis joined the attack and then rushed in to try and fill the religious vacuum.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Vivek_A » 31 Oct 2009 07:13

Not single dollar received from FoDP: official

Tarin hopeful of getting $500 million by December from the $5.5 billion pledges made in April at Tokyo moot

Saturday, October 31, 2009
By Aftab Maken

ISLAMABAD: The economic miseries of the incumbent regime have aggravated after zero response from the Friends of Pakistan (FoDP), who had pledged $5.513 billion at the Tokyo conference and it is feared that the government would have to slash the development budget.

“The FoDP have virtually left Islamabad in the lurch as it has become difficult for the economic managers to run the country within the budget outlay for 2009-10 as the budget was prepared keeping in view the expected inflows from FoDP,” a senior official of the Finance Ministry said on Friday.

The country, which is at war with terrorists and fighting for the safety of the whole world, has been compelled to reduce its development budget, which will increase poverty. And this could further fuel terrorism in the country.

The PPP-led coalition government would find it difficult to meet the set fiscal deficit target of 4.7 per cent of GDP as Tokyo pledges announced for the budgetary support of Pakistan had not materialised, official sources confided to The News on Friday.

“Not a single dollar has been disbursed to Pakistan as billion dollars’ pledges have not transformed into commitment,” an official of the Economic Affairs Division (EAD) familiar with the development told this correspondent but requested not to be named.

When asked to comment on the issue, Finance Minister Shaukat Tarin said: “We are hopeful that Pakistan will get 500-600 million dollars by the end of second quarter of the current fiscal year.”

Tarin was also hopeful that Pakistan would get the required amount from the FoDP in the first quarter but Islamabad was forced to move the IMF to bridge the $400 million gap because of no response from “the friends.”

The central bank in its first quarterly report finally admitted that the painfully slow pace of materialisation of the FoDP pledges, which is severely constraining the budgetary position, is hampering the government’s efforts to reflate the economy through fiscal stimulus.


:rotfl:

Out of these $5.513 billion pledges, Japan and the USA had announced pledges of one billion dollars each while Australia had offered $300m, the European Commission $96m, France $264m, Germany $125m, Iran $330m, IDB $250m, Italy $86m, Kuwait Fund $49m, Netherlands $121m, New Zealand $0.58m, Korea $200m, Saudi Arabia Fund $700m, Spain $27m, Sweden $5m, Turkey $100m, the UAE Fund $300m, the ADB $300 and the World Bank $300m, says an official paper available with The News.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby archan » 31 Oct 2009 07:15

What is the D in FoDP for?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Umrao Das » 31 Oct 2009 07:18

SS in mava world is great Sufi saint who converted many a followers in sufi relegion. Is not sufism a effort to bridge the gulf between shia and sunni but not about Kufirs?



D is for Dawood or development (developing) or destruction
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby archan » 31 Oct 2009 07:24

or duplicity, or dhimmitude..

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby r_subramanian » 31 Oct 2009 07:25

What is the current population of Pakistan?

I am just curious.

More than 160 million people with exceptionally large agricultural and pastoral areas ...

says an article in this morning's Daily Times on-line edition
link

...no one to inspire the people and no one to govern 170 million people?

laments an article in this morning's The News
link

You do have 180 million people. Your population is projected to be about
300 million ...

said US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, recently in Paksitan

I know there has not been a Population Census conducted in Pakistan for quite some time. Is there an informed consensus on the population figure?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Kati » 31 Oct 2009 07:36

shiv wrote:I am no expert on Sufism - but it seems to me that Sufism is akin to a burkha covering a naked woman that is held in place by a single button. :rotfl: It appears to be a "dilution of core principles" in the direction away from "deen". It looks like a "Let me hedge my bets" type of behavior that allows one to get away with either strict Islam or something less than that. It is a door that allows kafirs to expose themselves to Islam without commitment - like pre-marital touchy-feely.

It falls into what I had (long ago) characterized as the "interface" between Islam and kafirdom. A "surfactant" that allows Islam to exist as an emulsion in stable suspension when Islam is actually insoluble/immiscible in an excess of unislamic practices. :rotfl: :rotfl:


Shiv-ji,
I haven't seen such a beautiful definition of sufism before. Excellent.
Me think that in India sufism has/had been strongest in two places - Kashmir and Bengal. That's why, when pak-sponsored jihadism went full blast in kashmir, it was the sufis who were driven out first, and all sufi 'theks' were destroyed. I guess, to polarize people further along the religious line.
In bengal, over centuries, sufism took deeper and stronger roots. (It also brings cultural aspects which needs to ber seen in the context also, but that is deferred now.) Though Bengal has witnessed horrible riots during and after partition, it still hasn't beenable to shake off the sufism in this vast area. I'm talking about combined east and west bengal. Sufi saints, also known as 'fakirs', have and do play a significant role in erasing the religious boundary between the two religions through their folk songs, which has given rise to bengal's famous folk song 'baul-geet'. Sufism has played an integral rle in east bengali muslims to reject the extremist rustic islamic views of west pakistan. (Now, a good number of BRFites will jump on this issue going by all the media reports of islamic fundamentalism taking roots in Bangladesh. But let me tell all that my views are a bit different, and I do get periodic updates from my extended family back in B'desh.). In thousands of bengal villages, millions of hindus and muslims offer prayers in sufi dargahs and fakirs' theks in the months of paus and magh. When two communities come so close, it naturally loses some communal steam. It is true that for the last thirty years, the billions of petro-dollars are being poured into bangladesh to erase the influence of sufism. But, the way things are going is now like this - in a college dorm a bunch of guys, after getting a lumpsum pocket money, gets into binge drinking and curses own parents. But, next morning, when the hangover is gone, they meekly ask for pocket money from the same parents. may be I'm oversimplifying this a bit. But if bangladesh gets saved in the long run from islamic fundamentalism then it'll be due to the liberal outlook, rich cultural heritage that has taken roots here, and a large role played by sufism. ....

(now let me wait for the brickbats.)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby sivabala » 31 Oct 2009 07:38

archan wrote:What is the D in FoDP for?

Last I heard that the D is for democratic. Anyway the D is just a mirage.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby anishns » 31 Oct 2009 08:21

Why is Tarrel than mountain, deepel than ocean fliend missing?

Out of these $5.513 billion pledges, Japan and the USA had announced pledges of one billion dollars each while Australia had offered $300m, the European Commission $96m, France $264m, Germany $125m, Iran $330m, IDB $250m, Italy $86m, Kuwait Fund $49m, Netherlands $121m, New Zealand $0.58m, Korea $200m, Saudi Arabia Fund $700m, Spain $27m, Sweden $5m, Turkey $100m, the UAE Fund $300m, the ADB $300 and the World Bank $300m, says an official paper available with The News.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Gagan » 31 Oct 2009 08:29

Out of these $5.513 billion pledges, Japan and the USA had announced pledges of one billion dollars each while Australia had offered $300m, the European Commission $96m, France $264m, Germany $125m, Iran $330m, IDB $250m, Italy $86m, Kuwait Fund $49m, Netherlands $121m, New Zealand $0.58m, Korea $200m, Saudi Arabia Fund $700m, Spain $27m, Sweden $5m, Turkey $100m, the UAE Fund $300m, the ADB $300 and the World Bank $300m, says an official paper available with The News.

Well they can definitely forget the $330 million after they sponsored that terrorist blast in Iran, then went on to arrest 11 Iranian border guards.
The FoDP was a sham just like Pakistan's promises in rooting out terrorism as a state policy are a sham. Serves them right.

FoDP: Friends of Development in Pakistan.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Gagan » 31 Oct 2009 08:30

anishns wrote:Why is Tarrel than mountain, deepel than ocean fliend missing?

These are 'Friends'
China is now a 'relative' after massive GUBO-ing.
:rotfl:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Kati » 31 Oct 2009 08:38

There goes some more Uncle's greenbacks....
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... angu-ss-02

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby gandharva » 31 Oct 2009 08:54

There perhaps were some Sufis that genuinely did pick up from the Indic spirituality (Amir Khusro?) and they perhaps had nothing to do with Islamism.



Amir Khusru, the dearest disciple of Nizamuddin Awliya and supposed to be the pioneer of Secularism in India by India’s secularist historians, echoed the same opinion when he wrote as follows in his Khazãin-ul-Futûh also known as the Tãrîkh-i-Alãî: “The whole country by means of the sword of our holy warriors has become like a forest denuded of its thorns by fire. The land has been saturated by the waters of the sword, and the vapours of infidelism [Hinduism] have been dispersed. The strong men of Hind have been trodden under foot, and all are ready to pay tribute. Islam is triumphant, idolatry is subdued. Had not the law (of Hanifa) granted exemption from death by the payment of jiziya, the very name of Hind, root and branch, would have been extinguished.”

http://www.bharatvani.org/books/siii/ch10.htm


THE SUFI AS A FANATIC

http://www.bharatvani.org/books/hindusoc/ch8.htm


SUBJUGATION OF MYSTICISM TO THEOLOGY

"The sufis could sing and dance and indulge in other ‘frivolities’ provided they swore by the Muhammad, conformed to the Sunnah in their outer conduct, and served the sultans in the extension of Islamic imperialism. This victory of theology over theosophy is very much manifest in the functioning of sufis and their silsilãs in India. One never meets a sufi in the large number of this tribe in India who even whispered a word of protest against what the mullahs were saying about Hindu religion and culture, and what the sultans were doing to Hindu temples, places of pilgrimage, and holy men. But one meets many sufis who were furious with the sultans for stopping short of converting or killing all Hindu kãfirs, and destroying all Hindu places of worship. Some of them never got reconciled to the recognition of Hindus as zimmîs and the imposition of jizyah on them because in their theology it was tantamount to bartering away the mission of Islam for mammon. The only choice which Hindus had, according to them, was between Islam and death."
.
.
.
"Amir Khusru, the dearest disciple of Nizamuddin Awliya (Chishtiyya luminary of Delhi), mourned loudly that if the Hanafi law (which accommodated Hindus as zimmîs) had not come in the way, the very name Hindu would not have survived."

and

MISINFORMATION ABOUT MONOTHEISTIC CREEDS

"Hindu society has never had an organised hierarchy like the Christian Church. Nor has Hindu society ever been a fanatical fraternity like the Muslim Ummah. Hindu spirituality, therefore, never became an instrument of predatory imperialism. Hindu princes in pre-Islamic India fought many wars. But none of them was a religious war. The scene changed to a certain extent when Hindu society was attacked by an imperialist ideology named Islam which pretended to be a superior religion, and which swore that Allah and his last prophet had mandated the whole earth to the Muslim Ummah. Hindu sword had to be drawn in defence of Hindu society and culture, and some Hindu saints blessed the enterprise. Even so, Hindu saints of the stature of Kabir and Nanak kept on pleading with the mullahs and the sufis to give up their exclusiveness, and accept the Hindu spiritual insight that all paths lead to the same goal. Hinduism thus retained its spiritual character and universality all along.

Kabir and Nanak and numerous other nirguNa saints failed to carry any conviction with the mullahs and the sufis and the sultans. The latter were either too self-righteous or too enamoured of the power and pelf which the exclusiveness of Islam had earned for them. Kabir had to suffer persecution from Sikandar Lodi for questioning this exclusiveness. Guru Arjun Deva and Guru Tegh Bahadur had to lay down their lives in defence of Sanãtana Dharma.

In the final round, however, the nirguNa saints succeeded only in confusing Hindu society into believing that Islam was just another religion and not an ideology of imperialism. Fortunately, the impact of nirguNa saints on Hindu society was marginal. The saguNa saints and the ãchãryas did not even so much as mention Islam even in the heyday of its power and sway. They found it beneath contempt.

The nirguNa saints have been revived in more recent times, and presented as social reformers who stood for a casteless and classless society and as the precursors of what passes for Secularism in present-day India. This monstrous misrepresentation has been mostly the work of Hindi scholars working for doctoral degrees. They have succeeded to a large extent in misleading the Hindu intelligentsia. Now it is the turn of the Buddha and Bhagvan Mahavira who are also being dressed up in the same secular plumes."


http://www.bharatvani.org/books/hindusoc/ch7.htm

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Airavat » 31 Oct 2009 09:03

Kakkaji wrote:Wonder how different the history of the subcontinent would have been, if Dara Shikoh had defeated Aurangzeb instead of vice versa that actually happened.


It would not have happened because Dara did not have the military skill to lead armies in battle or plan long term campaigns. The result of having an overprotective father, who didn't let him get any real experience in battle.

Aurangzeb was not hostile to sufis at all. He made a pilgrimage to the shrine of Moinuddin Chishti in Ajmer after defeating Dara and made money offerings at the shrine in thanks. And again in 1679, during the Rajput War, he made another pilgrimage to the shrine to which he added the Sandali Masjid. Aurangzeb ordered his own tomb to be built in the dargah of Shaikh Burhan-ud-din in Khuldabad.

The only sufis Aurangzeb punished were those who supported Dara Shukoh, like the naked Jewish mystic Sarmad.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby shiv » 31 Oct 2009 09:10

Sufism acts exactly like an emulsifier - allowing two immiscible entities to exist side by side without actual mixing. If the analogy is extended, the removal of the emulsifier (Sufi like or other "secular" tendencies) then you get two separate layers of oil (dar ul Islam) and water (dar ul harb)

http://www.scienceprojectideas.co.uk/ma ... lsion.html

An emulsion is a stable mixture of oil and water that does not separate. Many foods and things around the house, for example hand creams or mayonnaise, are emulsions. The oil and water are kept together in an emulsion by compounds called emulsifiers.

What is an Emulsifier?
Emulsifiers are molecules that have two different ends, one that likes water (hydrophilic), and the other that dislikes water and likes oil (hydrophobic). The hydrophobic end buries itself in the oil, and the hydrophilic end tries to get as far away from the oil as possible. This forms oil droplets in water surrounded by emulsifier molecules (oil-in-water emulsion) or water droplets in oil surrounded by emulsifier molecules (oil-in-water emulsion).

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby gandharva » 31 Oct 2009 09:13

The only sufis Aurangzeb punished were those who supported Dara Shukoh, like the naked Jewish mystic Sarmad.


Airawat Jee this information about Sarmad might be of your interest.

"One day I was reading an Urdu translation of Sarmad’s Persian poems when the sufi came into my room and sat down by my side. I put away the book and had another long talk with him. Then I left the room because I had a few other things to do. When I returned after about half an hour, I found the sufi reading the same book by Sarmad. A few days earlier I had heard him talking about Sarmad with reverence and in a language of fulsome praise. So I sat down quietly in a corner and waited for him to read out and explain some significant lines from that book.

But I was taken aback when he suddenly threw the book against the opposite wall with some violence and shouted, “Harãmzãdã kãfir hî thã (The ******** was an infidel indeed)!” I picked up the book, brought it back to the sufi, and asked him to show me the lines that had enraged him so uncontrollably. He leafed through the book and finally put his finger on two lines almost towards the end. I cannot recall the exact words of the couplet but I remember very well the message that was conveyed. Sarmad had addressed himself as follows: “O Sarmad! What is it that goes on happening to you? You started as a follower of Moses. Next you put your faith in Muhammad. And now at last you have become a devotee of Rãm and Lachhman.”

I could see nothing wrong or improper in this couplet. Sarmad was only telling the story of his seeking which had led him from Moses to Muhammad to Rãma and LakshmaNa. I had not read the book as fast and as far as the sufi had done. Nor did I know the real reason for which Sarmad had been beheaded in Delhi by the order of Aurangzeb. All I had heard was that Sarmad used to roam about naked on the roads of this imperial city. I had supposed that he had been punished for his impudence in the midst of a polished society which placed immense importance on being properly dressed. It was years later that I learnt the real nature of Sarmad’s “crime”. It was apostasy which is punishable with death according to the law of Islam laid down by the Prophet himself during the days of his tussle with the polytheists of Mecca."

http://www.bharatvani.org/books/hindusoc/ch8.htm

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby SSridhar » 31 Oct 2009 10:34

Gagan wrote:FoDP: Friends of Development in Pakistan.


Friends of Democratic Pakistan. It started off as FoP and somebody hit upon the bright idea of inserting 'Democratic' while the short reign of democracy lasts.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Gagan » 31 Oct 2009 11:48

^^^ (My mistake)
That cunning Zardari. No wonder all the deaf and dumb forumwalas hate him. :P

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Paul » 31 Oct 2009 12:09

Dara Shikoh’s sister Jahanara Begum got along with Nadira quite well, as reflected by her involvement and interest in Nadira’s wedding.


I remember reading in NCERT hindi textbook about Jahanara suffering from burns and her treatment by a British doctor. Aurungzeb granted them special trading rights as reward for their services.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby r_subramanian » 31 Oct 2009 13:53

IED goes off at Khyber Agency - 7 killed

Seven security men die in Khyber blast
Updated at: 1250 PST, Saturday, October 31, 2009
KHYBER AGENCY: At least seven security men killed in an explosion of a powerful bomb which went off in Bara tehsil of Khyber Agency, Geo news reported on Saturday.
...

link

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby r_subramanian » 31 Oct 2009 13:57

Further reporting on the above from AFP news ageny
A bomb killed seven Pakistani soldiers and wounded 11 others Saturday in the country's northwestern tribal area, officials said.

"Seven paramilitary soldiers were killed and 11 were wounded in the remote-control bomb attack," Shafirullah Khan, the top administrative official of Khyber tribal district, told AFP by telephone.

Military and security officials in nearby Peshawar city confirmed the incident, saying two vehicles carrying rations for Pakistani troops were destroyed in the blast.
...

link

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby svinayak » 31 Oct 2009 14:25

Clinton Defers Role in South Asia Feud
Article
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1256952 ... atsNewsTop
Associated Press
U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton walks with local tribal people in Islamabad, Pakistan on Friday, Oct. 30, 2009.
ISLAMABAD -- Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, facing criticism in Pakistan for the U.S.'s expanding ties to India, ruled out Washington playing a formal mediation role between New Delhi and Islamabad on the issue of the disputed Himalayan territory of Kashmir.

Mrs. Clinton's position further diminished Pakistani hopes that the Obama administration would use its international stature to aggressively press for a resolution of the decades-old Kashmir conflict, which has fueled a nuclear-arms race in South Asia.

President Barack Obama campaigned last year on the need for the U.S. to help fashion a "regional" solution to the instability in Afghanistan and Pakistan. He specifically cited the importance of Kashmir and the damping of the India-Pakistan rivalry.

The Obama administration has established a direct, public role in seeking to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the political crisis in Honduras.

Mrs. Clinton, appearing on a Pakistani talk show Friday, said the Obama administration believed such a direct effort would be counterproductive in the conflict between New Delhi and Islamabad.

"It is clearly in Pakistan's and India's interest to resolve [their dispute]. But it isn't to us to dictate a solution," Mrs. Clinton told the show, "Our Voice." "That wouldn't last a minute."

Pressed by the studio audience, the secretary of state said Washington's role in the Arab-Israeli conflict was necessary because the Palestinians had yet to establish an independent state.

She said Washington supported New Delhi and Islamabad returning to bilateral negotiations that froze after last year's attack by Pakistan-based terrorists in Mumbai. U.S. officials say Washington has quietly been working to build bridges between India and Pakistan in the wake of the Mumbai attacks.

The director of the Central Intelligence Agency, Leon Panetta, has attempted to promote intelligence-sharing between New Delhi and Islamabad to guard against any future terrorist strikes.

Pakistan said it is open to the U.S. playing a more direct role in resolving the Kashmir dispute, but Indian officials reject third-party mediation. New Delhi said it is open to resuming its bilateral dialogue with Pakistan, but needs Islamabad to crack down on the militant groups that attacked Mumbai.

Mrs. Clinton concluded a three-day trip to Pakistan Friday aimed at smoothing Washington's relations with its chief ally in the fight against al Qaeda. The issue of India was raised at most public events where Mrs. Clinton appeared. She met with Pakistani lawmakers, journalists and civic leaders in Islamabad and Lahore.

Pakistanis have particularly criticized a nuclear-cooperation agreement between Washington and New Delhi. The pact, reached last year, allows the U.S. and other nations to sell nuclear fuels and technologies to India, despite New Delhi's refusal to sign the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty.

Islamabad argues that the pact could help India significantly outpace Pakistan's nuclear-weapons arsenal, despite stipulations in the agreement that none of the nuclear materials be used for military purposes.

Pakistani leaders, citing their country's energy shortages, pressed Mrs. Clinton to help Islamabad get a similar deal.

"Why don't you set up some nuclear-based projects in Pakistan for the private sector?" textile executive Mian Muhammad Mansha asked Mrs. Clinton at a meeting with business leaders in Lahore. "Let your companies come here."

Pakistanis who attended events with Mrs. Clinton also called on the U.S. to intervene in an intensifying water dispute between Islamabad and New Delhi. And they charged India was stoking ethnic unrest in the Pakistani provinces of Baluchistan and Sindh, a charge India's government denies.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby shravan » 31 Oct 2009 15:24

US may have to shell out five-times more for acquiring land for Islamabad embassy
.
.
According to sources, the Foreign Office has submitted a report to Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani suggesting that the rate of the land offered to the US for the expansion of the Islamabad embassy should be increased to 80,000 rupees per square yard from the existing 15,000 rupees per square yard.

Read more: http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/sou ... z0VVT41RSY

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby K Mehta » 31 Oct 2009 16:39

With the money being flown in by Kerry-Lugar Paisa Do Bill, how things change in Baki governmand behaviour towards US, needs to be seen.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Singha » 31 Oct 2009 17:05

last week the home minister of maldives came on a tv channel and agreed that 100s of maldivians had in recent times gone over to pakistan and joined either the taliban or the nearest other jihadi tanzeems.

wrt the 14 day indo-maldivian CT exercise that concluded today in belgaum maratha regimental center assumes significance. looks like we are taking the steps necessary to ensure the earlier coup does not repeat and the local forces are strong enough to defend the rampart until units can rush from india.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Gagan » 31 Oct 2009 18:37

There were recent statements from intel wallahs and netas that the Lakshadweep islands were being targetted by the LET / ISI for setting up a base in order to target the IN. Maldives is just around the corner.
I hate to be saying this but the islands of maldives and lakshadweep have an overwhelming minority community population. If the maldives is saying that its citizens have crossed over to pakistan for terror training, maldives is in grave danger. Its whole economy is centered around tourism, an industry that survives mostly on perception and sentiment.
This also means that cities in kerela, and IN bases there need to be careful.
A huge amount of traffic passes in the sea lanes around that area. RAW will have to further augment its surveillance from the pakistani ports and known LET / ISI safe houses in karachi and other coastal towns.
The LET sea wing has been created by the ISI, apparently they have received some training with pakistani SSG, and is a new challenge for our security apparatus.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Lalmohan » 31 Oct 2009 18:40

maldives is in dire straits... climate change will drive them underwater in a matter of years. discontentment brewing... no doubt someone will exploit

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby A_Gupta » 31 Oct 2009 18:57

Deleted.
Last edited by A_Gupta on 01 Nov 2009 03:47, edited 2 times in total.


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