Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Nihat » 30 Oct 2009 12:44

The US is caught in the "Great Pakistan Trap", there is no real direct way out for them. If they don't throw the billions into TSP then it says "we're not responsible for future attacks on you guys" , "nukes can fall into jihadi hands" and "the Af-Pak border will become a militancy hotbed".

If they do throw the billions , like they're doing now then TSP will say "not enough, since we spent 10 times more" , "India is causing trouble" , "US cannot control afghan infiltration" , "Kashmir solve karo" etc etc.

I don't see what else the US can do now, if they had the choice to go back in time, they would never had aligned with TSP in the first place.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby SSridhar » 30 Oct 2009 13:43

Nihat wrote:The US is caught in the "Great Pakistan Trap", there is no real direct way out for them.

Nihat, very true. I talked of the 'Eagle Trap' in one of my posts. It was partly a self set trap. The great mistake that the US did was to get into Iraq unnecessarily instead of taking on Afghanistan & AfPak. It didn't have the infantry for both fronts of Iraq & Afghanistan. That helped Pakistan 'manage' the situation skillfully. There is only one way out for the US now and that is to take the bull by its horns. But, it is not going to do that, looking at the emerging pieces of information. It is on an exit mode by accommodating with Pakistan and the Taliban. Pakistan certainly knows that it is only a matter of time before it regains its 'strategic depth'. It will never let go of that depth. In any case, events have turned a full circle from the Bear Trap to the Eagle Trap with Pakistan playing a central and commanding role in both.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby harbans » 30 Oct 2009 13:48

Top Pak diplomat knew US Lashkar operatives: FBI

WASHINGTON: Pakistan's Consul General in Chicago personally knew both David Coleman Headley and Tahawwur Hussain Rana, nabbed by the FBI for
planning to carry out a major terror attack in India at the behest of LeT, the US authorities have claimed.

The FBI in its revised chargesheet filed before a Chicago court said the Consul General of Pakistan in Chicago personally knows both Rana and Headley alias 'Daood Gilani', as all three of them are from the same high school.



Rana (48) and Headley (49) are not only residents of Chicago, but were product of the same military school.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby kenop » 30 Oct 2009 15:01

Gola may lose his property in Pukiland
A court in northwest Pakistan directed police to declare former President Pervez Musharraf a "proclaimed offender" and confiscate his property if he failed to cooperate with the probe into the whereabouts of a man allegedly detained by security agencies during his tenure.

Did he clear his dues for water supply? If not, the concerned departments may be able to close the issue.
Chances of serious trial are still low
.... This has raised the possibility of his trial on charges of treason but such a trial can only be initiated by the government.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby KaranR » 30 Oct 2009 15:03

Gem from History:
As Lord Mountbatten, resplendent in his naval uniform, decorations, Garter and all, marched to the dais to inaugurate Pakistan, he noted that there was only one special chair there. The viceroy's first thought was that it would be inappropriate for Jinnah, who was to become the governor-general of Pakistan, not to have an equally important chair as himself. He was taken aback when Jinnah promptly sat down on the special chair and motioned Mountbatten to take the one by its side.* Maybe he wished to pay back Mountbatten for the humiliations he had suffered at British hands in his early days, or for forcing him to accept a truncated Pakistan, despite all the help he gave them against the Congress Party during the war. But most likely it was megalomania in his old age.


If Colonel Elahi Baksh, the doctor who attended on JinnaJ during his last phase of his illness in August-September 1948 at Ziarat near Quetta, is to be believed, he heard his patient say: 'I have made it [Pakistan] but I am convinced that I have committed the greatest blunder of my life.' And, around the same period, Liaqat Ali Khan, the prime minister of Pakistan, upon emerging one day from the sick man's room after receiving a tongue-lashing, was heard to murmur: 'The old man has now discovered his mistake.' Was this . Jinnah's final metamorphosis?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby SSridhar » 30 Oct 2009 15:08

Report on Ms. Clinton's TSP Trip - NYT
Excerpts
But her skeptical comments also gave voice to the longtime frustration of American officials with what they see as the Pakistani government’s lack of resolve in rooting out not only Al Qaeda, but also the Taliban leadership based in Quetta, and a host of militant groups that use the border region to stage attacks on American and NATO forces in Afghanistan.

Mrs. Clinton’s statement was only one of several pointed remarks on issues ranging from security to poor tax collection during a day in which she ran into a wall of distrust and mostly hostile questioning in public appearances intended to soothe relations, suggesting she was no longer willing merely to listen to Pakistan’s grievances.

The shift in tone came after a meeting with university students in which she expressed regret about past injustices in the American-Pakistani relationship, as well as about the disputed American presidential election in 2000, which she said showed that all democracies were flawed.

Rarely in her travels as secretary of state has Mrs. Clinton encountered an audience so uniformly suspicious and immune to her star power as the polite, but unsmiling, university students who challenged her at Government College University in Lahore.

One after another, they lined up to grill Mrs. Clinton about what they see as the dysfunctional relationship between Pakistan and the United States. They described a litany of slights, betrayals and misunderstandings that add up to a national narrative of grievance, against which she did her best to push back.

Why did the United States abandon Pakistan after the Soviet Union withdrew from Afghanistan, they asked. Why did the Bush administration support the previous military government of Gen. Pervez Musharraf? What about reports in the Pakistani news media that American contractors illegally carried weapons in Islamabad?

At times during this three-day visit, Mrs. Clinton has sounded less like a diplomat than a marriage counselor. But her soothing approach has won her few friends. She got tepid applause from the students here, some of whom groaned when she defended American policies.

At the university, a young man said that President Obama had failed to fix policies on Iraq or detainees, and told Mrs. Clinton that the United States was forcing Pakistan into a ruinous war.

Mrs. Clinton noted that the government had decided to fight only after its efforts to cut a deal with militants failed. “Slowly, but insidiously, you were losing territory,” she said. “If you want to see your territory shrink, that’s your choice. But I don’t think that’s the right choice.”

Those comments, made at the end of the meeting, set the stage for Mrs. Clinton’s feisty appearance later in the day.

At a roundtable session with businesspeople, Mrs. Clinton bluntly told an all-male audience that Pakistan needed to do a better job of collecting taxes and taking care of its poor. “When you ask for a partnership, you have to ask what Pakistan’s equity stake is,” she said.

Listening patiently to a litany of grievances from journalists about American policies, Mrs. Clinton said, “I am more than willing to hear every complaint about the United States.” But she said the relationship had to be a “two-way street.”

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby SSridhar » 30 Oct 2009 15:13

KaranR wrote:Maybe he wished to pay back Mountbatten for the humiliations he had suffered at British hands in his early days, or for forcing him to accept a truncated Pakistan, despite all the help he gave them against the Congress Party during the war. But most likely it was megalomania in his old age.


It was asinine on the part of Mountbatten to expect to be made a Governor General of Pakistan as well. Jinnah had worked tirelessly and diligently to create Pakistan to satisfy his bloated ego and why should he give it all up ? It was his greed to be all powerful rather than remain an icon outside the government as the Father of the Nation that laid the foundation for future single-person rule in Pakistan.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby KaranR » 30 Oct 2009 15:33

SSridhar wrote:At a roundtable session with businesspeople, Mrs. Clinton bluntly told an all-male audience that Pakistan needed to do a better job of collecting taxes and taking care of its poor. “When you ask for a partnership, you have to ask what Pakistan’s equity stake is,” she said.

Listening patiently to a litany of grievances from journalists about American policies, Mrs. Clinton said, “I am more than willing to hear every complaint about the United States.” But she said the relationship had to be a “two-way street.”


It seems the Pak’s now wants to be equal to the USA. They talk tough for their Urdu and Arabic audience.
I always believed Bin Laden and his gangs are protected by the Pak’s army, Chinese and the Saudi Royal family.
:wink:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Nihat » 30 Oct 2009 15:39

Pakistan certainly knows that it is only a matter of time before it regains its 'strategic depth'. It will never let go of that depth


Perhaps it will. By extremly conservative estimates, I would assume a time frame of 2-3 years after which the US would cut it's losses and go back. 2 scenario's can take shape then.

US continues the dynamics of it's old relationship with Pakistan, allows it to regain "strategic depth" in the hope that TSP would be able to control radical elements from mounting another attack on US. This is disastrous for India and US too leaves itself open to the possibility of another 9/11.

The second possibility being that US is absolutely pissed with TSP for it's half baked attempts at taking on Al Qaeda and the Taliban, it re-shapes it's relationship with TSP and decides that arm twisting instead of molly coddling is the better approach, I hope Hilary's frustrations are pointers in that direction.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Sanku » 30 Oct 2009 16:27

Nihat wrote:
Pakistan certainly knows that it is only a matter of time before it regains its 'strategic depth'. It will never let go of that depth


I hope Hilary's frustrations are pointers in that direction.


The outcome will depend majorly on a largely visible move of the Islamist block against the west, we can only hope that the those desiring for a pan-national Islamic Caliphate will not be really wise and/or patient and seek to first establish power in their current natural bastion (Af-Pak region) before striking out against the west.

India's best hope lies in the Taliban overreaching itself, again, and soon.

It all depends on how the brave Pushtoons tarry in the glorious aim to avenge their humiliations at the hand of Kafir west.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Avinash R » 30 Oct 2009 17:45

Pak Army link to terror in J&K?
30 Oct 2009, 1414 hrs IST

There seems to be a Pakistani Army link to terror in the valley. This after the Indian army recovered a Pak Army I-card from one of the two terrorists, who were killed in Keran, Jammu and Kashmir on Friday (October 30) morning. Following this, the terrorists' I-card has been sent to the Army headquarters and the Indian government has also lodged a protest with their Pakistani counterpart.
...
Reports suggested that the terrorist's name on the Pak army I-card was Zohed Ayaz and was reportedly a soldier in the Punjab regiment of the Pakistani Army. However, sources within the Indian government are not confirming the same as speculation does rounds of whether he was an army official, who turned into a terrorist later on or an operation by the Pak army themselves.
...
This is the second infiltration bid which was successfully foiled by the troops. Yesterday, the army troops shot dead a militant who was attempting to infiltrate from nearby Tangdhar sector, 160 kms from Srinagar.


BSF seizes Pakistani boat in Kutch, occupants escape

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby SSridhar » 30 Oct 2009 18:15

Ms. Clinton disappoints business leaders
The US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton on Thursday disappointed the business community here when she asked them to trade with India instead of extending any concrete assurances to their genuine concerns regarding difficulties they were having to access US markets.

They were pinning high hopes on their meeting with Hillary Clinton, expecting some important announcement in this regard, but she did not respond positively to any of their demands expect making vague promises with no chance of being fulfilled in the near future.

Without making any commitment to help resolve their problems, she advised them to open up trade with India for the progress and benefit of people of both the countries.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Philip » 30 Oct 2009 19:16

Pakis-tanics "strategic depth"...Davy Jones' Locker,the bottom of the ocean!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Kati » 30 Oct 2009 19:47

Some blunt talking ...
Clinton hits out at Pakistan Qaeda silence
By Christophe Schmidt (AFP) – 5 hours ago

ISLAMABAD — US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton hit out Friday against Pakistan's silence on the whereabouts of Al-Qaeda leaders, wrapping up a goodwill visit cautiously welcomed despite lingering distrust.

As rescue workers searched for more bodies in the wreckage of one of the country's biggest bomb attacks, which slaughtered 118 people on Wednesday, Clinton said Pakistan would never escape terror without disposing of Al-Qaeda.

[b]"We don't know where and I have no information that they know where but this is a big government. You know, it's a government on many levels. Somebody, somewhere in Pakistan must know where these people are," she said.


"And we'd like to know because we view them as really at the core of the terrorist threat that threatens Pakistan, threatens Afghanistan, threatens us, threatens people all over the world," Clinton told radio journalists.

"I think it is absolutely clear and I am convinced that you will never rid Pakistan of the threat of terrorism unless you rid it of Al-Qaeda."

One day earlier she appeared to lose patience during a face-to-face meeting with senior editors, taking issue with Pakistan's official line doubting that Osama bin Laden and his senior lieutenants are in Pakistan.

"I find it hard to believe that nobody in your government knows where they are and couldn't get them if they really wanted to," she had said.

Wednesday's bomb attack, which overshadowed Clinton's visit, underscored the gravity of Islamist attacks that have killed around 2,400 people in two years and seen as part of a backlash against the government's alliance with the US.

Clinton has focused on trying to strengthen the civilian government and counter rising public anti-Americanism, but has been frustrated by fears here a 7.5-billion-dollar non-military US aid bill violates Pakistan's sovereignty.

Hers is the most senior American visit here since US President Barack Obama put the nuclear-armed Muslim state at the heart of the fight against Al-Qaeda and made the war in Afghanistan a top priority.

She sought to reach out to Pakistani students and media, which is frequently highly critical of the United States, while also visiting religious sites and pledging shoulder-to-shoulder support.

Analysts said differences between Washington and Islamabad on Al-Qaeda would continue, but praised her on-message diplomacy and respect for Islamic custom by covering her hair, visiting a mosque and handing out alms.

"It will dilute the criticism if not eliminate the opposition. She communicated openly and admitted there were differences," political analyst Hasan Askari told AFP.

"Her emphasis was to work for social development in addition to military assistance. She did it successfully to leave a good impact and reduce negative sentiments in public," he added.

Clinton endorsed a major Pakistan offensive against Taliban sanctuaries in South Waziristan, part of the tribal district on the Afghan border where US officials accuse Al-Qaeda of plotting attacks on the West.

The army said troops were closing in on Kanigurram, described as a base of Uzbek militants and a Tehreek-e-Taliban operational centre, despite concern from rights groups of a "catastrophe" unless aid reaches trapped civilians.

The military announced Friday that 14 militants were killed during the battle to secure an important ridge less than four kilometres (2.5 miles) from the Taliban bastion of Sararogha. Two soldiers were also killed, it said.

The body count meanwhile rose further from Wednesday's huge car bomb that devastated a crowded market in Peshawar.

The remains of a child were lifted out of the wreckage on Friday, pushing the total number of children dead after the attack to 24, along with 31 women.

Fire destroyed about half a dozen buildings and rescue teams are still working to remove the debris in the narrow streets around the market in the conservative city, which lies on the edge of the tribal belt.

Militants also pressed on with a campaign to destroy schools in the northwest, blowing up a state-run high school for boys and a clinic.

Copyright © 2009 AFP. All rights reserved
[/b]

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby arun » 30 Oct 2009 20:12

Some of the other wire services on US Secretary of State Hillary Clintons message to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan on Al Qaeda.

AP:

Clinton scolds Pakistan over inaction on al-Qaida

Reuters:

Clinton puzzled at Pakistan failure to find al Qaeda

UPI:

Clinton: Pakistan provides al-Qaida haven

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby arun » 30 Oct 2009 20:25

Prem wrote:Our own monsters ( Waiting For Jinnha"s Pure Islam )
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=205793 .....................

In an interview to the German magazine Der Spiegel President Barrack Obama's advisor Bruce Ridel said about Pakistan: "International terrorism, nuclear proliferation, drugs, democracy deficit, the threat of nuclear war, and Islam, all come together in an extraordinarily combustible way."


The quotation by Bruce Riedel provided by Tariq Ali was from an interview datelined 8th December 2008 by Spiegel Online dealing among other issues with the 26/11 Mumbai terrorist attack:

I have said on many occasions that Pakistan is the most dangerous country in the world: International terrorism, nuclear proliferation, the threat of nuclear war, drugs, democracy deficit and Islam all come together in an extraordinarily combustible way.

‘A Nightmare We Cannot Afford in the 21st Century'

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby ramana » 30 Oct 2009 20:37

There is incorrect reading/misperception of the situation in TSP by Ms Clinton about AlQ and TSP.

The state sponsored Islamist fundamentalism in TSP provides the underlying environment for Al-Q to survive and thrive. In other words AlQ in TSP is a symptom and not the root cause. So even if AlQ is rooted out from TSP they will still carry on their fundamentalist path due to their underlying Islamist environment. To get to disrupt this is a cvilizational task and needs to reform Islam. They(KSA and Iran) need to be given the choice to change or perish.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby svinayak » 30 Oct 2009 21:11

ramana wrote:There is incorrect reading/misperception of the situation in TSP by Ms Clinton about AlQ and TSP.

The reason for this is that AlQ was the result of the social engineering done in the last 40 years inside Pakistan and funding during the Afghan wars.
So many analysts say that AlQ cal ne rooted out by stopping the state support and policy changes.

But Islamism has hijacked the social engineering policies and taken its own path. This has not been understood by many.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby shiv » 30 Oct 2009 21:12

I have said on many occasions that Pakistan is the most dangerous country in the world: International terrorism, nuclear proliferation, the threat of nuclear war, drugs, democracy deficit and Islam all come together in an extraordinarily combustible way.

‘A Nightmare We Cannot Afford in the 21st Century'


Bruce Riedel's words can be used to sum up the relationship betwn the US, Pakistan and India

The US says
Bruce Riedel wrote:A failed state in Pakistan will be a failed state with 60 nuclear weapons. That is a nightmare we cannot afford in the 21st century.



Pakistan says:
Pakistan wrote:We care not about failure. An intact India is continuous failure for us. Success is breaking up India


Al Qaeda/LeT say
Jihadis wrote:Failure is failure to implement Islam and rid the area of kafirs. We are not bothered about state failure


India says:
India wrote:We cannot bend to blackmail and allow India to be broken up because Pakistan wants it. Those nukes are aimed at us any way - whether Pakistan fields them or Al Qaeda fields them.


Pakistan's failure is a bigger threat to others than India. The threat from Pakistan to India cannot increase as Pakistan fails. This is where I disagree with all the people who worry about a failing Pakistan.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Akshut » 30 Oct 2009 21:26

kmkraoind wrote:
But despite the charm offensive heading into a potential PR disaster, the word in Washington is that Uncle Sam will continue to lavish more guns and butter on Pakistan, as it has done for decades, this time in the name of defeating terrorism. If anything, Pakistan's own angry counter-offensive is poised to yield an even bigger bonanza.


Bliss explain the underlining of the statement in the bold. :-?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby rajsunder » 30 Oct 2009 21:44

negi wrote:Yeah but I wonder if this interview was more about re-assuring an average American who was worried about his money being missused than rapping the TSP .

nope this was in a discussion of HC with all major television anchors in islamabad. And was meant for consumption of baki audience.

link to whole ddiscussion
http://pakistanherald.com/Feat-Vdo.aspx?fvdoid=2001

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby SwamyG » 30 Oct 2009 22:02

Shiv wrote:Pakistan's failure is a bigger threat to others than India. The threat from Pakistan to India cannot increase as Pakistan fails. This is where I disagree with all the people who worry about a failing Pakistan.

Isn't Pakistan as a state more susceptible to rewards, punishment, cajoling, caressing, blackmail, threats, flatter and reasonable than AQ or other players? Because as a State Pakistan has more to lose than non-state actors. TIA for the gyaan.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Prem » 30 Oct 2009 22:05

amit wrote:
kmkraoind wrote:Washington gasps at Hillary charm-el-shake offensive that leaves Islamabad stunnedhere a schism between the Man of Peace and the Former First Lady? Or is this a good old fashioned Good Cop, Bad Cop routine?

Somehow I get the sense that Hillary is trying to leave her mark on US foreign policy independent of Obama. Another shot at the presidency in future maybe?


IMHO Very close to reality> My guess is she will quit within 2 years as this is the only way she can have any chance of becoming President. BO will be a failure and REpcans have run out of right men and ideas. This will be her chance to break out and run for grand prize as she will have nothing loose.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby arun » 30 Oct 2009 22:20

Woman Slashes Husband's Throat Because He's Not Devout Muslim

A Staten Island woman was charged with attempted murder, assault and criminal possession of a deadly weapon after slashing her husband's throat with a knife. The police say the devout Muslim woman was upset her husband did not follow Islam strictly, allegedly making her drink alcohol, dress in short skirts, and eat pork.

According to the Daily News, Sheikh Naseem, a teacher at Susan Wagner High School, woke up on Wednesday to find wife Rabia Sarwar on his chest yelling, "It's time for you to die!" and slashing his throat. ……………………..

Sarwar allegedly confessed to the police, listing her husband's various abuses and how Salman Rushdie was his favorite author. Her lawyer said she was "emotionally abused..He got her to drink alcohol, eat pork and change her clothes. She wanted to dress traditionally. I think he was a cruel person who preyed on her."

Naseem, "who was born in Pakistan, but is half Norwegian and is a Unitarian," explained that he wed Sarwar, who is from Pakistan, through an arranged marriage five months ago. ………………..

Gothamist

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby svinayak » 30 Oct 2009 22:34

arun wrote:[
Sarwar allegedly confessed to the police, listing her husband's various abuses and how Salman Rushdie was his favorite author. Her lawyer said she was "emotionally abused..He got her to drink alcohol, eat pork and change her clothes. She wanted to dress traditionally. I think he was a cruel person who preyed on her."

How modernism clashes with Islamic traditions

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Paul » 30 Oct 2009 22:41

shiv wrote:
I have said on many occasions that Pakistan is the most dangerous country in the world: International terrorism, nuclear proliferation, the threat of nuclear war, drugs, democracy deficit and Islam all come together in an extraordinarily combustible way.

‘A Nightmare We Cannot Afford in the 21st Century'


Bruce Riedel's words can be used to sum up the relationship betwn the US, Pakistan and India

The US says
Bruce Riedel wrote:A failed state in Pakistan will be a failed state with 60 nuclear weapons. That is a nightmare we cannot afford in the 21st century.


Pakistan says:
Pakistan wrote:We care not about failure. An intact India is continuous failure for us. Success is breaking up India


Al Qaeda/LeT say
Jihadis wrote:Failure is failure to implement Islam and rid the area of kafirs. We are not bothered about state failure


India says:
India wrote:We cannot bend to blackmail and allow India to be broken up because Pakistan wants it. Those nukes are aimed at us any way - whether Pakistan fields them or Al Qaeda fields them.


Pakistan's failure is a bigger threat to others than India. The threat from Pakistan to India cannot increase as Pakistan fails. This is where I disagree with all the people who worry about a failing Pakistan.



This is what we discussed in the Afghanistan thread. When Bruce Reidel says "WE" he is referring to the anglo saxon establishment. Those nukes were meant for India. Now that the possibility that they may be targetted elsewhere becoming a reality, it is giving nightmares to the west. This nightmare was meant for India onleee.

The Pakhtun Taliban have other axes to grind, they cannot be a more potent threat to India than the current Pakistan state and it's sponsors.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Jarita » 30 Oct 2009 22:44

Pakistan's failure is a bigger threat to others than India. The threat from Pakistan to India cannot increase as Pakistan fails. This is where I disagree with all the people who worry about a failing Pakistan


I beg to disagree. This is a classic case of doggie become a rabid Alaskan wolf (jihahis). In the past to pacify the pet doggie western interests have used indic civilization to take the pound of flesh - carving out of Pakistan and Bangladesh for multiple trade-offs one of them from what I have heard being the creation of Israel. They will continue to try and do the same with the rabid wolf. They have to direct this monster in another direction and what better than their biggest threat - indic civilization. We have to be extra vigilent with a counter strategy ready and rolling.

Infact if you look at the previous century, indic civilizations have borne the biggest brunt in all geo political moves starting with the bombs in Japan (note, no western power faced that), Mess in South East Asia, Social reengineering in China.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby BijuShet » 30 Oct 2009 22:57

Jarita wrote:Pakistan's failure is a bigger threat to others than India. The threat from Pakistan to India cannot increase as Pakistan fails. This is where I disagree with all the people who worry about a failing Pakistan


I beg to disagree. This is a classic case of doggie become a rabid Alaskan wolf (jihahis). ....

Jarita, first off, welcome to BR. A small request of you. When responding to another poster please use the quote button at the bottom of the original post to send your response as it helps provide context to your reply.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby anupmisra » 30 Oct 2009 23:02

shiv wrote:The US says
Bruce Riedel wrote:A failed state in Pakistan will be a failed state with 60 nuclear weapons. That is a nightmare we cannot afford in the 21st century.


Not to digress, but take away the 60-odd nuclear weapons, many would think that pukistan will be just another failed state (in the august company of Somalia, Ethiopia, Burundi....). However, the porkis have learned to leverage their "strategic location" as another reason for extracting alms. Hence, IMHO, they expect to be "neutered" in the future with their weapons but no one today can take away their "location" advantage without dismembering the nation into smaller states.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby BijuShet » 30 Oct 2009 23:08

Jarita wrote:I beg to disagree. This is a classic case of doggie become a rabid Alaskan wolf (jihahis). In the past to pacify the pet doggie western interests have used indic civilization to take the pound of flesh - carving out of Pakistan and Bangladesh for multiple trade-offs one of them from what I have heard being the creation of Israel. They will continue to try and do the same with the rabid wolf. They have to direct this monster in another direction and what better than their biggest threat - indic civilization. We have to be extra vigilent with a counter strategy ready and rolling.

Infact if you look at the previous century, indic civilizations have borne the biggest brunt in all geo political moves starting with the bombs in Japan (note, no western power faced that), Mess in South East Asia, Social reengineering in China.

Please spend some time on this thread and other similar threads with in this forum. I also urge you to read through the links provided in the first post of every TSP thread including this one. These issues have been discussed here more than once and if you read through the archives you will discover for yourself that a jehadi TSP is no different than one ruled by TSP's army. The difference between the 2 is the use of Shalwar instead of Khakis. Both sides hate us equally so regardless of who rules TSP, we will suffer. On one hand the uniformed force of TSP poses a threat to India alone where as on the other hand the multiformed jehadi force poses a threat to India and the West. In first case, the West will leave the problem for us to solve and be quite happy to supply the uniformed force with all the weaponary required for defence and offence against India. A jehadi force on the other hand will find very few friends (maybe in the Middle East and China ). It is in our interest to wish for an overtly jehadi TSP than a covertly jehadi TSP which is what it is now(and still receiving approx $4 billion this year alone from KL bill and Military payments combined).

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Jarita » 30 Oct 2009 23:10

However, the porkis have learned to leverage their "strategic location" as another reason for extracting alms. Hence, IMHO, they expect to be "neutered" in the future with their weapons but no one today can take away their "location" advantage without dismembering the nation into smaller states.[/quote]


But nukes or not nukes Porkis would never be allowed to be a completely failed state unless something goes drastically wrong. You give too much credit to the Porkis.
Porkiland is of crucial strategic importance to Anglo/ PRC interests in the region. First and foremost it's a check to India in multiple ways - trade and energy being a couple.
In a smaller way it is a check to China as it establishes presence, as well as trade routes. Add Russia and Iran to the mix. I am not even inlcuding factors such as drugs etc. It also provides Saudi Arabia and co with 140 MM soldiers (inferior sub continentals :twisted: )
I think it is a miscalculation to assume that TSP exists just because it exists. TSP is an artificial state for many factions. Unless there is a good substitute, it will not disintegrate that easily.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Jarita » 30 Oct 2009 23:15

BijuShet wrote:
Jarita wrote:I Please spend some time on this thread and other similar threads with in this forum. I also urge you to read through the links provided in the first post of every TSP thread including this one. These issues have been discussed here more than once and if you read through the archives you will discover for yourself that a jehadi TSP is no different than one ruled by TSP's army. The difference between the 2 is the use of Shalwar instead of Khakis. Both sides hate us equally so regardless of who rules TSP, we will suffer. On one hand the uniformed force of TSP poses a threat to India alone where as on the other hand the multiformed jehadi force poses a threat to India and the West. In first case, the West will leave the problem for us to solve and be quite happy to supply the uniformed force with all the weaponary required for defence and offence against India. A jehadi force on the other hand will find very few friends (maybe in the Middle East and China ). It is in our interest to wish for an overtly jehadi TSP than a covertly jehadi TSP which is what it is now(and still receiving approx $4 billion this year alone from KL bill and Military payments combined).



Biju, I've been following BR for 3 years now. I've read all the the threads under strategic issues. I am not disagreeing with you. Overt jehadi is better, yes if other factions are not involved. This is an artificial state gone amok. There is too much at stake.
I rest my case with my previous post.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Paul » 30 Oct 2009 23:28



But nukes or not nukes Porkis would never be allowed to be a completely failed state unless something goes drastically wrong. You give too much credit to the Porkis.
Porkiland is of crucial strategic importance to Anglo/ PRC interests in the region. First and foremost it's a check to India in multiple ways - trade and energy being a couple.


We are over estimating the power of the anglo saxon and other external powers in playing the role of arbitarer in deciding the fortunes of Pakistan. While they have done a lot in propping up Pakistan over the past 60 years, and before then favored the Muslims as their monotheistic co-religionists, their powers of influence can only far with rising India, the entity it was carved out from. The state has only religion as a glue holding it together. Religion cannot be the sole factor in defining a nation.

So If the state is to survive, they need to find an answer to the question
Pakistan ka Matlab Kya????. So far it appears to be - (a) La illhaha illalla and (b) La idhar la.

They also need to find an answer to some very basic questions like why in Pakistan people say good bye as in Allah Hafiz and not Khuda Hafiz anymore.

It is questions like these that will define what kind of nation the people of Pakistan want.

The west/PRC cannot help them in finding these answers.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Jarita » 30 Oct 2009 23:39

Paul wrote:We are over estimating the power of the anglo saxon and other external powers in playing the role of arbitarer in deciding the fortunes of Pakistan. While they have done a lot in propping up Pakistan over the past 60 years, and before then favored the Muslims as their monotheistic co-religionists, their powers of influence can only far with rising India, the entity it was carved out from. The state has only religion as a glue holding it together. Religion cannot be the sole factor in defining a nation.

Can you provide a little more specificity around the scenario you see emerging? When I talk about the rabid wolf I am ref. to the jihadi universe.
While religon may not glue the state together, common hatred can and where this is directed will determine our fate, I believe.
I am not sure we have someone like an Indira Gandhi who delivered a double blow to the queen and bishops (chess analogy) in the early 70's. I don't see any outmaneuvering.
Last edited by archan on 30 Oct 2009 23:43, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fixed quotation tag and unnecessary whitespace.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Kakkaji » 30 Oct 2009 23:56

Select 'Nuggets' from this week's TFT. My apologies if already posted:

Imtiaz Billa exonerates Samiul Haq

Quoted by Chief Editor Jinnah Imtiaz Billa confessed that the tape that accused JUI’s Maulana Samiul Haq of the Akora Khattak seminary of having sex with the girls of Madame Tahira in Islamabad while being sodomised by his driver was cooked up by officers to please Maulana Fazlur Rehman. One of the officers was serving as a police official in Punjab.

Rental companies and furniture

According to Jinnah one federal minister who is linked to the rental power producers (RPPs) has asked a furniture company near Lahore’s Hussain Chowk to make furniture for him for Rs 2 crore. The said minister was a man of modest means before he joined the government.

‘I have no house!’

Ex-army-chief Aslam Beg was quoted by Jang that he had no house but he had heard Humayun Akhtar claim that he had $200 million and Ijazul Haq claim that he had $250 million. He said they should be asked where the money had come from. Beg said he had no house of his own.

Can’t count his children!

A wife of the great Punjabi leader Ghulam Mustafa Khar, Nilofar Khar, was quoted in Jang as saying that Khar was too old (sathia gae) to even remember how many children he had. She said Khar claimed that he had 11 children but in fact he had 18. She claimed that she was the 8th wife of the great man also known as the Loin of Punjab.

Mehran Bank millions and Aslam Beg

Brig Imtiaz Billa was quoted in daily Pakistan as saying that a lot of money was transferred from Mehran Bank into the army account from where Rs 60 million were later sent to the presidency by Aslam Beg. He said Aslam Beg was close to Mehran Bank president Yunus Habib who used to visit Beg’s house. After that, Rs 80 million were transferred to the account of the ISI. This was the money that ISI chief Asad Durrani spent on the politicians. He said President Ghulam Ishaq Khan ate his part of the funds and at presidency Roedad Khan was in charge.

‘I was wrong about Benazir’

Daily Pakistan quoted ex-ISI officer Brigadier Imtiaz alias Billa as saying that he had categorised Benazir Bhutto as security risk on the basis of wrong information. He said he did so on orders from the then army chief, Aslam Beg, but he said he will not apologise to the PPP for what he did.

National interest and politics

Quoted in daily Pakistan ex-ISI officer Brigadier Imtiaz Ahmad said that no intelligence agency should remain silent when national politics goes against national interest. Thos was the most significant statement made by him during his series of disclosures on the TV channels. This also formed the crux of the problem between the army the civilian leadership in Pakistan.

‘Wukla’ persons beat up police

Reported in Jang a group of wukla (lawyer) persons attacked policemen in Garhi Shahu in Lahore and tore up their uniforms after the police tried to stop a lawyer Hassan from trying to buy ten bags of subsidised flour. The wukla persons then tried to get flour without standing in line. In the ensuing violence both sides thrashed each other.

Gojra blasphemy done by Qadianis

Daily Nawa-e-Waqt reported that Khatm-e-Nabuwwat which devotes itself to the persecution of the Qadiani community had announced that the blasphemy in Gojra blamed on Christians was actually done by Qadianis. The Sipah Sahaba leaders made speeches and said they had come wearing kaffan (shroud) in order to stop any changes in the Blasphemy Law.

Qadianis will have their rights

Quoted in Nawa-e-Waqt leader of the MQM Altaf Hussain said that if his efforts at changing Pakistan succeeded he would give the Qadiani community their rights because they too were Pakistanis. The English press however also added that he would build mosques for them. The next day all clerics including JUP condemned Altaf Hussain for the statement.

Ulema chastise PM

According to Jinnah leaders of religious parties and religious scholars got together to condemn Prime Minister Gilani’s expressed wish that Pakistan should keep fast and celebrate Eid on the same days. The ulema called the PM ignorant and asked him to keep his mouth shut as Eid could be called only on seeing the moon. The PM had said that although he wanted Eid and fast timings reformed he was scared of the ulema.

Imran, Musharraf’s polling agent :eek:

Reported in Khabrain a spokesman of Bilawal House in Karachi stated that Imran Khan should stop severely criticising the PPP and should think about apologising for the sin of being the polling agent of Musharraf during the general’s fraudulent referendum.

Asif Zardari for hanging Musharraf

Columnist Hamid Mir wrote in Jang that President Zardari was in favour of hanging Musharraf under Article 6 but was sidelined by Prime Minister Gilani’s statement in parliament that Musharraf’s trial was not possible. Soon he will meet Nawaz Sharif and decide to try Musharraf.

Meera defended by Sheikhupura

According to Jinnah actress Meera who was being hounded by a husband who wanted her back in conjugal bed including the house and the four crores he had spent on her, was finally defended by people from her hometown Sheikhupura. They said Atiq the so-called husband was defaming the actress to become famous himself. They said Meera was sachi (true) and khari (pure) and would not marry secretly.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby anishns » 31 Oct 2009 00:18

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Just finished watching the debate....it is quite the entertainer! Suggest some pop-corn and beer to go along with
Basically, Hillary aunty saying....joo bhant to habe the cake and eat it too? hain ji?

On a serious note, the media is bickering and moaning on the conditions attached to KL bill and Hillary says very bluntly, well if you don't want it.....then don't take it.....we're not forcing it on you i.e. if you don't to improve the power generation capacity in your country, education and health of your citizens then there is nada that we can do for you!
:(( :(( :((


oooh! And forgot to add....give us drone technology too :(( :(( :((

rajsunder wrote:
negi wrote:Yeah but I wonder if this interview was more about re-assuring an average American who was worried about his money being missused than rapping the TSP .

nope this was in a discussion of HC with all major television anchors in islamabad. And was meant for consumption of baki audience.

link to whole ddiscussion
http://pakistanherald.com/Feat-Vdo.aspx?fvdoid=2001

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Jarita » 31 Oct 2009 00:54

[quote="anishns"]:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Just finished watching the debate....it is quite the entertainer! Suggest some pop-corn and beer to go along with
Basically, Hillary aunty saying....joo bhant to habe the cake and eat it too? hain ji?


Just look at the ticker tape at the bottom - India, India, India, MMS, India.. What a bunch of psychologically deranged people

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Rahul M » 31 Oct 2009 00:59

kakkaji, did we miss the past few episodes of "diaries of a social butterfly" from TFT ?

jarita, you need to add a [/quote] at the end of the quoted part to complete it.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Kakkaji » 31 Oct 2009 01:53

Rahul M wrote:kakkaji, did we miss the past few episodes of "diaries of a social butterfly" from TFT ?


Ruahulji, please check the BENIS thread.

My contributions to BENIS are not original, like those of accomplished Maulanas of BRF, but quoted from TFT.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - September 15, 2009

Postby Johann » 31 Oct 2009 01:54

Paul wrote: The state has only religion as a glue holding it together. Religion cannot be the sole factor in defining a nation.

So If the state is to survive, they need to find an answer to the question
Pakistan ka Matlab Kya????. So far it appears to be - (a) La illhaha illalla and (b) La idhar la.

...The west/PRC cannot help them in finding these answers.


Religion, and the Pakistan Army. The PA was the most cohesive institution not only in the state, but in the country after Jinnah and Liaquat died and the Muslim League splintered.

Right now the PA is tearing itself apart. That is the real threat to the survival of the Pakistani state. As the ideological war shifts in to Pakjab, the heart of the PA's moral support base, the process is only going to accelerate.

The West always looked to the PA to defend its interests in the Cold War, and then the War on Terror. Cold War aid strengthened the PA, but WoT aid has forced it to turn on itself.

If the West wanted the PA (and by extension Pakistan) to survive as an end in itself, then it must chose to disengage not just from Afghanistan, but Pakistan as well. This is simply impossible - supporting the PA after 9-11 is a means to the end of containing the global jihadi threat, especially the nuclear factor.

The PA has *only* one way to rescue itself from being forced to fight itself, and endangering their power - reject American aid and be treated like a cross between Iran and Somalia. That would have huge financial consequences for Pakistan's ruling class in particular, as well as its middle class which has financially prospered from the 2000s, even as its physical security has diminished.

This is a difficult and painful choice, and that is what the howling about the Kerry-Lugar bill is really about. Its more than just the usual song and dance as Tim claimed. Its the pain from catching the fork in the road square in the crotch.
Last edited by Johann on 31 Oct 2009 02:14, edited 1 time in total.


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