Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Nov 2009 21:05

there is a historical parallel to a influx of refugees from the west. about the time the ghori dynasty was winding down to be replaced by the 'slave' and successor dynasties, the mongols had pounced on iran, CAR region, afghanistan and beaten everyone to a pulp.

hence stateless kings, shirtless nobles, camp followers, lay citizens all flooded in their thousands across the indus to the relative safety of punjab, haryana, delhi and the doab region between the ganga and yamuna.

at one time, around 20 deposed kings of such places were living in exile in dilli - I believe during ghiyasuddin balban's time.

the 100,000-300,000 standing army including large nos of turkish cavalry
in the delhi army was when ably led, able to defend the indosphere against the mongols for the most part, except when the ruler became very weak and wolves like timur the lame marched in and killed every hindu in delhi while sparing some entirely muslim quarters.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Nov 2009 21:21

muraliravi wrote:http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/ ... arge_3.php

This guy has a nice list of blasts from Oct 5 along with location.

Read more: http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/ ... z0WkrxQR8d

Hmmm - not bad at all. 35 soosai bummers and 360 Packees shaheedized

So if the Taliban have 2000 soosai, you can expect 1,440,000 houris booked.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Nov 2009 21:23

latest photo of khalid sheikh mohamad in NYT today - he kinda looks like respected yogic guru now.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/200 ... /popup.jpg

the cause for his spiritual transformation could be: (from NYT)

The decisions about how to prosecute Mr. Mohammed and Mr. Nashiri have been particularly difficult because their defense lawyers are expected to argue that they were illegally tortured by the Central Intelligence Agency during their confinement, tainting any evidence gathered from their interrogations. The Bush administration later sent a so-called “clean team” to re-question the prisoners in preparations for military commission trials.

Documents have shown that the C.I.A. used waterboarding — a controlled drowning technique — against Mr. Mohammed 183 times in March 2003.

Mr. Nashiri is one of two other detainees known to have been waterboarded before the Bush administration shut down the program, which high-level officials had approved after the Justice Department wrote legal memorandums arguing that the president, as commander in chief, could authorize interrogators to bypass antitorture laws.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 13 Nov 2009 21:44

Singha wrote:there is a historical parallel to a influx of refugees from the west. about the time the ghori dynasty was winding down to be replaced by the 'slave' and successor dynasties, the mongols had pounced on iran, CAR region, afghanistan and beaten everyone to a pulp.

hence stateless kings, shirtless nobles, camp followers, lay citizens all flooded in their thousands across the indus to the relative safety of punjab, haryana, delhi and the doab region between the ganga and yamuna.

at one time, around 20 deposed kings of such places were living in exile in dilli - I believe during ghiyasuddin balban's time.

the 100,000-300,000 standing army including large nos of turkish cavalry
in the delhi army was when ably led, able to defend the indosphere against the mongols for the most part, except when the ruler became very weak and wolves like timur the lame marched in and killed every hindu in delhi while sparing some entirely muslim quarters.

Exactly. We should be aware of historical precedents of similar events and how they have panned & how they have eventually affected India. We are once again on cross-roads where destruction & collopse looms to our NW, and the same faith people might flood & change the dynamics of India. Lessons & learnings from the past must be very carefully studied & imbibed in our thinking.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Nov 2009 21:51

some writers say the number of actual soldiers who settled in undivided india serving in the ghaznavid and ghorid armies pales in comparison to the
number of displaced refugees and shirtless beggars from the parts mentioned. the migration from central asia was pretty continuous - they all wanted to serve as soldiers or in skilled trades. india was a haven of stability and industry compared to burning villages and chaos they left behind.

a second wave of tradesmen & budding soldiers from persia and afghan were drawn to the south - the deccan sultanates offered hope of wars when the north was peaceful. wars meant the opportunity for rapid advance and loot.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Nov 2009 22:12

If US Attorneys introduce/use evidence obtained without torture then it becomes moot point about waterboarding etc.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 13 Nov 2009 22:25

One of the most surprising things I have learned in BRF is that India attracted so much immigration from CA for the last 1000 years or so. I wonder what fraction of M's in India are indegenous, and what fracton are the immigrants. Of the various things that we blame the M rule in India, this immigration should be also blamed. For the sanctuary provided they created TSP.

On the perverse side, TSP has been a good thing for us since it has served as a buffer between us & the CAians. When chaos reigned in CA, they instinctively fled to TSP. Better for Uzbegs to roam the streets of Pindi, than Amritsar.

If this buffer itself collapses, then all hell breaks loose. We have to ensure that the human flood goes to CA or other places for a change, and not to their "natural" "instinctive" path to India proper.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 13 Nov 2009 22:41

shiv wrote:
muraliravi wrote:http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/ ... arge_3.php
Read more: http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/ ... z0WkrxQR8d
Hmmm - not bad at all. 35 soosai bummers and 360 Packees shaheedized
So if the Taliban have 2000 soosai, you can expect 1,440,000 houris booked.

Must give credit where its due. Pakistan has fulfilled the dream of Qasim> Deer Paki beerarthers, Has pure islam arrived yet or still far from Lahore?

derkonig · Post by **derkonig** » 13 Nov 2009 22:47

^^^
CA was home to quiet a few ancient civilizations including the Scythians, the Parthians, the Kushans, the Saka. Besides, even the Achaemenids ruled a large part of CA. So this was not a land filled with wild eyed barbarians until well the 7th century happened. Remember, that CA has a great deal of Vedic & Buddhist heritage. So, if we the Indic civilization desire peace, we will have to also make efforts towards detoxifying these populations.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Nov 2009 22:50

surinder wrote:One of the most surprising things I have learned in BRF is that India attracted so much immigration from CA for the last 1000 years or so. I wonder what fraction of M's in India are indegenous, and what fracton are the immigrants. Of the various things that we blame the M rule in India, this immigration should be also blamed. For the sanctuary provided they created TSP.

On the perverse side, TSP has been a good thing for us since it has served as a buffer between us & the CAians. When chaos reigned in CA, they instinctively fled to TSP. Better for Uzbegs to roam the streets of Pindi, than Amritsar.

If this buffer itself collapses, then all hell breaks loose. We have to ensure that the human flood goes to CA or other places for a change, and not to their "natural" "instinctive" path to India proper.

All these were debated for a long time in the numerous Islamism threads. The foreign origin IM are called Ashrafs and the others called Ajlafs. The Ashrafs comprise ~ 5%. Ashrafs trace their descent from : Arabs (Syeds, Shaikhs), Turco-Afghan-Persian (TAP) invaders/migrants. The Asfrafs are like a Persian carpet that is layed over the messy floor and suffocates any under it while giving the image of a cultured facade.

The sanctuary was provided by numerous Islamic kings of North India and Deccan. My take is The TSP's RAPE is the new Ashrafs.

One idea is that TSP is a buffer to hold all these. However the real buffer is in Central Asia not on Indian sub-continent. I dont want Uzbegs to roam in Pindi either. They should stay where they were born..

Umrao Das · Post by **Umrao Das** » 13 Nov 2009 23:03

I had mentioned in Mumbai Massacre 26/11 thread, that there is huge logistics material money support from Indian Netas Bollywood and Security agencies to the perpetrators....
Rahul is one of the cogs in our national emblem wheel.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Nov 2009 23:07

Where did Rahul Bhatt go to school? I hope its not either of those two on the target list.

Daoud Gilani was the coordinator of those terrorists attacks.

SwamyG, Can you make diagram of all the links being thrown up: the US, BD and Mumbai links and the Ilyas Kashmiri and ISI?

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 13 Nov 2009 23:16

Cultural Expressions = National Identity and Character
I guess, all three are AWOL!

Cultural expression

Given the violence at the opening of Karachi’s Shanakht Festival last April, it is heartening that the event has now been held successfully. Fears of violence in the form of a terrorist attack did indeed haunt the recently concluded festival, but luckily nothing of the sort was witnessed. Meanwhile, the event remained free of the sort of controversy that led to its cancellation earlier in the year, when armed men resorted to vandalism

That's because the mard-e-momin are busy elsewhere blowing up other targets of opportunities.

The incident was illustrative of the manner in which the freedom of cultural expression is under threat in Pakistan’s rapidly shrinking public sphere. To be sure, abstract ideas expressed through avenues such as art, literature and theatre cannot always hold equal appeal for everyone and may inevitably prove unpopular with some members of the public.

It is therefore important to ensure the continuance of events such as the Shanakht Festival where ideas of national identity and character and other influences are expressed. Exploration of the Pakistani experience is undertaken primarily in the cultural arena, and this must be actively encouraged. Such exercises enhance social understanding and can promote tolerance for differing viewpoints.

In the land of the pure, the phrases "social understanding", "promoting tolerance" and "differing viewpoints" should not be used in the same sentence when describing "porki kulchar, karakter, and identity". Its akin to "lying through one's teeth".

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 13 Nov 2009 23:16

derkonig wrote:^^^
CA was home to quiet a few ancient civilizations including the Scythians, the Parthians, the Kushans, the Saka. Besides, even the Achaemenids ruled a large part of CA. So this was not a land filled with wild eyed barbarians until well the 7th century happened. Remember, that CA has a great deal of Vedic & Buddhist heritage. So, if we the Indic civilization desire peace, we will have to also make efforts towards detoxifying these populations.

As explained by Swami Vivekananda, one need not make too much of the Vedic, Budhist history of CA. They were a very tribal & violent society. Budhism kept that in check for little while, but when they found their true faith, they took it to it like duck takes to water.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 13 Nov 2009 23:27

Select 'Nuggets' from this week's TFT. My apologies if already posted:

Making Zardari quit

Columnist Nazir Naji wrote in Jang that opinion makers began by saying that President Zardari will be made to quit in March 2009. To make the prediction credible a meeting with a general was referred to. But March came and went. When the anti-Zardari opinion makers and columnists were disappointed, they gave the fresh date of September 2009, but that month too went by with Zardari scoring well with the world outside.

Pakistan rudderless boat

Ex-Chairman Pakistan Steel Mills Retired General Abdul Qayyum wrote in Nawa-e-Waqt that US as a superpower in decline was focusing on Pakistan after being defeated in Afghanistan as its next victim while Pakistan was a rudderless boat which didn’t know who its captain was.

Pakistan now an American colony

Reported in daily Pakistan PMLN leader Iqbal Zafar Jhagra said that after the passage of the Kerry-Lugar Bill in Washington Pakistan had become a colony of the United States. He said if the PMLN had been in power it would have rejected the American aid. He said now national security of Pakistan was in danger.

Zardari has no sugar mill

According to Aajkal President Zardari had no sugar mills in Pakistan. Media adviser Farahnaz Ispahani said even the ehtesaab machines of Sharif and Musharraf could not prove Zardari’s connection with any sugar mill. She said the NAB report of 2006 contained his name at a time when his possessions had been frozen by Musharraf. One opposition leader named Leghari had counted 8 Zardari sugar mills in Sindh.

‘Five star’ fakirs

Famous columnist Irfan Siddiqi wrote in Jang that Pakistan had spread the kashkol (begging bowl) for $100 billion but its faqiran-e-khush-posh (well dressed beggars) got only $1.5 billion and clapped their hands in delight. He called the Pakistani delegation attending the Friends of Democratic Pakistan club of five-star fakirs who were raising their begging slogans in the streets of the world.

ANP leader and Rabwa

Reported in Khabrain ANP leader Ghulam Ahmad Bilour apologised for using the greatly victimised Qadiani community as a weapon with which to castigate the rest of Pakistan when it did not observe Eid together with the ANP. He said those who did not celebrate together with ANP were following Rabwa, the name of the city where the Qadianis had established their headquarters but which has since been renamed. He apologised after realising the intellectual meanness of the charge.

Nation awaits Imran Khan!

Great Urdu columnist Haroon Rasheed wrote in Jang that after the sugar crisis in which all the big politicians were named, the nation now looked to Imran Khan to become their saviour. Imran Khan had won the World Cup, refused ministry under Zia and hesitated a little over the same offer from Musharraf. Although he was inept in politics he was still the man Pakistan needed.

‘Asad Durrani real villain’

Reported in Nawa-e-Waqt famous ISI officer and fighter of Jews, Major (Retd) Muhammad Amir stated that he had defeated the plan of Indian and Israeli attack on Kahuta single handedly. He said ex-ISI chief Asad Durrani was the real villain (sazishi admi). He said money said to be handed over to Nawaz Sharif was actually given to Jatoi.

Osama speaks for Muslims

Column Sarerahe stated in Nawa-e-Waqt that Osama bin Laden and Ayman Al Zawahiri issued video tapes in which they spoke with the voice of the Muslims of the world. No one knows if they are alive or dead but they end up scaring America by saying that the end of America will take place at the hands of Muslims.

Who is Shilpa Sheti of PPP?

Writing in Express Talat Hussain wrote that US ambassador in Islamabad was Wazir-e-Azam who was given a lot of time on TV channels so that her denials could make her popular among the masses. And the informal minister of public relations Shilpa Sheti of PPP helped her get this TV mileage. The PPP Shilpa Sheti who handles PR dubs anyone differing with her as a friend of the Taliban.

Good times in Kot Lakhpat jail

Daily Express photographed a covered cart presumably carrying bottles of alcoholic drinks into Kot Lakhpat jail where rich prisoners had decided to enjoy a party. Since the jail superintendent was an invitee he allowed massive amounts of wine into the prison. Minister of prisons was doing umra in Saudi Arabia to improve his piety where the jailbirds were having a nice time.

Phoolnagar’s moral credentials

Reported in Aajkal the nazim of Phoolnagar in Qasur in Punjab and his men assaulted an ex-lady councillor and three other women, accused them of immorality, shaved their heads and paraded them in the streets. The house of the lady was ransacked and belongings destroyed. The police was so appreciative it registered a case against the lady councillor.

America, evil imperialist

Columnist Nazir Naji wrote in Jang that America used to pretend to be on Pakistan’s side on Indo-Pak differences but now it was clearly trying to subjugate Pakistan to the regional overlordship of India. But it should remember that it is confronted with a Pakistani nation that knows how to act when it is full of ghaiz-o-ghazab (fury) and possessed nuclear weapons and can even use non-traditional ways of fighting (terrorism).

Jamaat and Maududi’s son

Reported in Jinnah deputy secretary general of Jamaat Islami Farid Paracha was offended by the statement of the son of the founder of the Jamaat, Farooq Haider Maududi that the Jamaat was filling its coffers (tajorian) through its ‘go America go’ movement. Paracha said Farooq needed to read his father’s books carefully, the Jamaat was emptying the coffers in the name of Islam instead of filling them.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 13 Nov 2009 23:34

Positive proof of Yindoo involvement in Swat found - Indian medicines!! The card clearly says "Indian Origin Medicines". It must mean only one thing. The Yindoos are trying to help the tellibunnies recover from their war wounds.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Nov 2009 23:41

SSridhar wrote:Rahul, you are right about this p-secs, but I have not used that term in a derogatory manner. I do believe he is a secularist.

indeed !

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 14 Nov 2009 00:40

Pak’s Taliban war is a chess game ----- By Srinath Raghavan (Op-ed Asian Age)

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 14 Nov 2009 01:29

Hari Seldon wrote:Hersh's best days are obviously behind him. His 'brilliant scoops' and awesome sources+ overdone pull all appear ghost written by the same khanian agencies that provide him said access on the condition they get to ghost write propagandu under his name. Strictly JMTs and all that.

HS,

So you think the CIA deliberately leaked the Abu Ghraib story to Hersh?

Every single one of Hersh's articles are attacks on the conduct and assumptions of current US policy, including this one, which is why no administration has ever liked him, unlike Bob Woodward who alternates between sympathetic and skeptical.

The overall argument is that the US can not guarantee that it knows where all the triggers and all the cores are.

Hersh is able to write these articles because the people who work in the USG aren't all a bunch of faceless robots who all speak in one voice.

There are *always* dissenting voices among the serving and retired. When they think their bosses and peers have stopped listening to what they have to say, and are convinced that things are heading in the wrong direction, they speak to Hersh.
Their usual hope is that they can short circuit an administration by making the debate public.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 14 Nov 2009 01:34

Avinash R wrote:
BTW there's no point in trying to convert an exposed enemy agent. His handlers know he has been exposed and wont accept him back, therefore no point in being lenient in punishing this traitor.

On the contrary govt should make an example out of him.

This would serve as an example to all jholawallas, fake secularists and piss activists from inviting purelanders to their home and making their cities vulnerable to terrorist attacks. Mumbaikars should ask bhatt and his family to either stop inviting such terrorists to their homes or bhatt should be kicked out of mumbai. Ask him to go live in pureland were there is eternal piss.

The more I think about it, the release idea seems good. If he is innocent then nothing bad happens however if he is not, then his erstwhile "friends" will start thinking along the double agent angle and take care of him in the similar way as they did the fake Indian currency pusher in Nepal.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 14 Nov 2009 02:55

ramana wrote:Where did Rahul Bhatt go to school? I hope its not either of those two on the target list.

Daoud Gilani was the coordinator of those terrorists attacks.

SwamyG, Can you make diagram of all the links being thrown up: the US, BD and Mumbai links and the Ilyas Kashmiri and ISI?

According to WIKI Mahesh B. 's mother was a Muslim. That is interesting although my narrow mind may be at it again.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Nov 2009 03:02

Mahesh and Pooja bhatt are typical WKKs. Someone told me, Mahesh Bhatt converted himself. Cannot verify that though. (Did'nt he when he married Soni raazdan?) There were lots of reports.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 14 Nov 2009 03:06

surinder wrote:
derkonig wrote:^^^
CA was home to quiet a few ancient civilizations including the Scythians, the Parthians, the Kushans, the Saka. Besides, even the Achaemenids ruled a large part of CA. So this was not a land filled with wild eyed barbarians until well the 7th century happened. Remember, that CA has a great deal of Vedic & Buddhist heritage. So, if we the Indic civilization desire peace, we will have to also make efforts towards detoxifying these populations.
As explained by Swami Vivekananda, one need not make too much of the Vedic, Budhist history of CA. They were a very tribal & violent society. Budhism kept that in check for little while, but when they found their true faith, they took it to it like duck takes to water.

It was always a very culturally mixed area - nomadic Iranian and Turkic tribes out in the wilderness, and a mix of Persian, Indian, Greek (first pagan, and later Nestorian) and Chinese influences in the cities and the irrigated areas.

The cities and the land owning elite were often a cultured lot thanks of the trade along the silk route - but they were vulnerable to attacks by the tribes. They would often submit to the tribes, and act as their administrative class, attempting to soften them and preserve what they could of the past.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 14 Nov 2009 03:14

vishal wrote:China gave Pakistan enough enriched uranium to make 2 atomic bombs

It was a very confusing read, thanks to BRF and its acronyms. I kept seeing "Khan" everywhere and each time I had to slow down & remind myself that it referred to A.Q. Khan

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 14 Nov 2009 03:33

Bypassing the aid trap in Pakistan

By Glenn Hubbard

Glenn Hubbard, dean of Columbia Business School and a former chairman of the White House Council of Economic Advisers, is the author of "Aid Trap: Hard Truths About Ending Poverty."

Dr. Hubbard, the dean of my Alma Mater, is a highly respected academic with real world experience. He is very pro-India, as well.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Nov 2009 03:40

kenop wrote:
a_bharat wrote:Two days after Batla, IM men dialled Headley
Me taking with a pinch of salt. After every "breakthrough" all previous paapis and paaps are connected. A lot like after-thought and extra eagerness to crack the case.

Its normal practice the world over, to look at old cases in light of new evidence and try to see if it clears up unresolved aspects. So please dont imply that Indian police is bandwagonning on this matter. Thats not fair tot he overworked and under appreciated force. BTW they took losses in the Batala house incident.
Wonder what the Jamia Islamia VC has to say about paying for the legal defence of the terrorists in that incident.

Thanks, ramana

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Nov 2009 03:45

Ramana ji, were the phone numbers of Headley/ Gilani on the Batla house terrorists (dead or missing) phone? If they were then certainly it puts the incident in new light specifically since the Indian intel had no clue of Gilani's activities.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Nov 2009 03:59

Harbansji, All the details are in the express buzz article linked above. To summarize, UPATS noticed a UP number in the phone used by headley. The number belongs to an absconding member of the Batala House incident. That guy is supposed to be in KSA now.

The conjecture is that DG/DH arranged the transport for the absconding person thru his travel service.

IOW, the Ind Mujs standard ops was to contact DG to arrange for travel out of India. Now how many did he facilitate? We will see as it unfolds.

BTW Rahul Bhatt himself contacted the police otherwise no one would know he is that Rahul. So lets see how things turn out. For all he we know he was a patsy and didnt know who DH/DG was.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Nov 2009 04:02

Thanks sir for crystallizing that info. Lots of Batla terrorists sympathizers have a lot to explain seems.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 14 Nov 2009 04:24

Kakkaji wrote:Select 'Nuggets' from this week's TFT. My apologies if already posted:

America, evil imperialist

Columnist Nazir Naji wrote in Jang that America used to pretend to be on Pakistan’s side on Indo-Pak differences but now it was clearly trying to subjugate Pakistan to the regional overlordship of India. But it should remember that it is confronted with a Pakistani nation that knows how to act when it is full of ghaiz-o-ghazab (fury) and possessed nuclear weapons and can even use non-traditional ways of fighting (terrorism).

My guess is that this is among the milder of the essays in the Pakistani Urdu Press. If only we could make that press's output widely available to the English-speaking world!

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 14 Nov 2009 04:58

Knew it, it was just a matter of time .....

Hasan had communications with Pakistan
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091113/ap_ ... d_shooting

ppatil · Post by **ppatil** » 14 Nov 2009 05:38

From Kabul to Kashmir

A must read which conveys the Indian POV.

The article starts off well

By all rights, the United States and India should be bound together by the shared tragedies of 9/11 and last year's terrorist attacks in Mumbai. India's size, economic-growth trajectory, and rising power as a stable, secular democracy in a dangerous part of the world ought to make it a key U.S. partner. Instead, Washington's single-minded focus on India's much smaller unstable neighbor, Pakistan, in carrying out the war on terror has increasingly strained its relations with New Delhi. To India's dismay, the U.S. has looked the other way while much of the $10.5 billion in military hardware and cash subsidies provided to the Pakistan Army for use against the Taliban has been diverted to building up arms capabilities targeted at India. Equally disturbing is that Washington has given only perfunctory support to India in pushing Pakistan to prosecute the perpetrators of the Mumbai attacks.

and ends with

So while the U.S. should continue to give large-scale development aid to Pakistan, the focus of its attention in South Asia should shift to India—one of the few bright spots on the U.S. global horizon

The only thing I didn't like about the article is giving large scale bheek to TSP.

Mods please move this article to Indo-Us thread if you think that it does not belong here.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 14 Nov 2009 06:40

A gem from that article

The U.S. goal should be a sovereign Afghanistan, not the creation of an anti-Indian Pakistani satellite state

This is not what the Pakbarians want. India's key diplmoatic goal should be to get Obama administration as well as IC agree that India is there for humanity's sake, just as US and Britain are there to restore peace and democracy. Pakbarian animalistan wants to be there for turning Afghanistan into another sep tank like TSP. Otherwise we get trapped in this equal-equal nonsense.

Unless of course, the goal is to use Afghan as a bargaining chip to get Pakbarians give up on Kashmir in a 'grand bargain'...

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 14 Nov 2009 08:20

CIA winked at Pak Army training camps for LT: Paris

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Nov 2009 08:40

my crystal ball sees the following in few yrs
- afghanistan splits into 3-4 pieces - north (russian alient), west (iran shiite dominated),
south (pashtun state but with multiple centers of power).
- the pashtun state engulfs NWFP and frontier agencies within its border
- baluchistan a american protectorate to gain access to CAR and keep a foot in the game.
- sindh and punjab as a rump state, both hating each other but cannot do without each other,
sindh needs agrarian produce to export and river water, punjab needs sindh to reach the sea.
- punjab cedes the northern areas to PRC, mass resettlement of penniless han peasants and
adventurers to eventually outnumber the locals, those locals desiring more piety migrate down south.
- parts of the PA break off based on ethnic and geographical lines to form the nucleus of the new
state armies

- sindh and punjab then descend into civil war as the rump army, tanzeem warlords, penniless peasants and feudal lords jostle for power kind of like periods in china's history when secret societies and gangs like the Yellow Turbans, society of the blue lotus and others held sway.
- sensing blood in the water, EJs move in from the south with tacit american approval and start
forming the own neo-Xtian nodes of resistance in the fertile parts of sindh.
- india builds more reservoirs and draws away more water from headworks, reducing further the
flow of water to parched west punjab (the death by 1000 cuts strategy)
- famine haunts the land frequently - population is huge and resources and industry are few.
- a succession of short lived satraps ascend the throne but are quickly and relentlessly murdered
or retired by scheming courtiers. attempts are made to ascend based on alleged bloodlines stretching back to the first caliphs of arabia, including installing mewling infants when their elder siblings are deposed, 'supervised' by cunning regents and dowager empresses
- rump PA no longer controls the border and trade guilds and local govts open strong trading links
with adjoining areas of india as the only way out of chaos, the most capable units of PA are posted
on western front to guard against periodic tribal 'raids' and incursions into the punjab plains.
- refugees pour in and are resettled in arid parts of the deccan and western india to reclaim kharab
lands and prove their worth, spies and agents seeded in their midst to weed out troublemakers.
most of the chieftains of jihad in punjab fall prey to the bullets of paid assassins and ambitious
lietanents who want a out-of-turn promotion by having the big boss die in harness.

gradually by a process of osmosis and gravity "india" expands to subsume these two rump states,
borders baluchistan, an american puppet state high on resources but low on population.

PRC remains cut off from his cherished foothold in the persian gulf.

pashtuns continue to fight among themselves, against the PRC neo-settlements in NA and raid the
western punjab periodically. punitive indian and russian bombardments are done to control their
hunger for loot and burning.

arun · Post by **arun** » 14 Nov 2009 09:08

X Posted. A different version of the story posted by Shynee.

French judge Jean-Louis Bruguière says that the US accepted the Pakistan Army running Lashkar terrorist training camps.

In dealing with the US, India needs to be cautiously alert else we will be sold down the river:

From Times Online
November 14, 2009

Pakistani Army ran Muslim extremist training camps, says anti-terrorist expert

Charles Bremner in Paris

The Pakistani Army ran training camps for a Muslim extremist group, at least until recently, with the acceptance of the US Central Intelligence Agency, according to France’s foremost anti-terrorist expert.

Jean-Louis Bruguière, who retired in 2007 after 15 years as chief investigating judge for counter-terrorism, reached this conclusion after interrogating a French militant who had been trained by Lashkar-e-Taiba and arrested in Australia in 2003.

In a book in his counter-terrorism years, Mr Bruguière says that Lashkar-e-Taiba, which was set up to fight India over disputed Kashmir territory, had become part of the international Islamic network of al-Qaeda.

Willy Brigitte, the suspect, told Mr Bruguière, that the Pakistani military were running the Lashkar-e-Taiba training camp where he spent 2½ months in 2001-02. Along with two Britons and two Americans, Brigitte was driven in a 4x4 through army roadblocks to the high-altitude camp where more than 2,000 men were being trained by Pakistani regular army officers, he said.

“The links between the Lashkar-e-Taiba and the Pakistani Army are more than close. Brigitte observed this twice,” Mr Bruguière said. “When the camp was resupplied, all the materiel was dropped off by Pakistani army helicopters. And there were regular inspections by the Pakistani Army and the CIA.” ................................

Times, UK

arun · Post by **arun** » 14 Nov 2009 09:15

Ramana / Sridhar,

The brand new Daood Gilani is I suspect inadvertently locked. Futher the thread title has Headley spelt wrong.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Nov 2009 09:49

Please post all David Headley/Rana/Rahul and related posts in the thread specifically created for tracking these issues. The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley

Malayappan · Post by **Malayappan** » 14 Nov 2009 11:57

The now deleted Islamism thread would have been more appropriate as Ashok Malik covers more than just Pakistan here. Anyone read the book he is referring to?

A possible alternative, Ashok Malik The Pioneer, Saturday, November 14, 2009
http://www.dailypioneer.com/215632/A-po ... ative.html

Site was not archived earlier (still doesnt?), so posting in full. Definitely a must read!

Many Indians fear the collapse of Pakistan and the imminent takeover of the state by a rampaging army ofAllah. They worry the Pakistani elite — English speaking, whisky drinking, Western and liberal in its personal lives — will simply run away, leaving behind a rump civil society: Illiterate and undereducated millions who will become cannon fodder for the Islamists.

Reality may not be so black and white. It is more likely the Islamisation of Pakistan’s polity and society — the tussle between an upper crust that is half embarrassed, half in denial and, at the back of its mind, very, very afraid, and the mullah-jihadi duumvirate — will be a gradual one.

For security reasons, external powers will shore up the nominally secular or moderate elite. The debate between local traditions and mono-cultural, Arab interpretations of Islam will be long drawn, and while headed in one direction will not end in one day, perhaps not even in one century. What it will do, however, is paralyse a society and not let it achieve its potential.

How do we know this? Is there a template for Pakistan? Perhaps there is no one template but several, spread across failed states and a variety of Islamic societies caught in a wrenching struggle between the call of a supranational faith and a modernity rooted in nationalism. The author may not have intended it that way, but Sadanand Dhume’s book My Friend, the Fanatic (Tranquebar), just released in India, not only interrogates Indonesia’s conversion, inch by inch, from a country of pluralist Muslims to one where Islamism is clearly on the ascendant, but also offers us a prism through which to understand Pakistan.

As Dhume, a Washington-based writer and cartographer of the many social Islams that inevitably seem to gravitate towards the one political Islam, puts it in a conversation, Indonesia represents the eastern edge of a historical contest between “the Sanskritic and Arabist civilisations”. The contest was lost centuries ago at its western end — Afghanistan — and has ceded ground, by miles rather than inches, in Pakistan.

In 1947, Pakistan was a Muslim homeland but still a South Asian country, very much situated in the ethos of the Indian subcontinent. Today, it looks in the direction of West Asia and the Arabian desert for a mother culture and a societal anchor. Likewise, says Dhume, the young Muslim boys and girls growing up in Java are probably the first generation in their communities “who do not know who Bhima and Arjuna were”. Islamist preachers have, for instance, forbidden rice farmers worshipping a local goddess of fertility, whose origins lie in a pre-Islamic veneration of agriculture.

Indeed, the evolution of Indonesian society in the period following the 2002 Bali bombings is particularly insightful. Dhume reports this in real time. Landing in Bali as a news reporter the day after the attack on the Sari nightclub killed some 150 Australian tourists, he was fascinated by the radicalism that was beginning to become more than just a fringe movement in a country he had travelled to and lived in. He quit his job and decided to become a chronicler of Indonesia’s new engagement with Islam.

The book is a result of those efforts. Dhume captures a period when the Islamisation debate was no more a passive, theoretical discussion. It acquired a trenchant edge and was, to use a colloquial expression, very in-your-face. It was a period that forced people to make choices, and also pushed upper class elites into denial, dissimulation, saying different things to different audiences, and pretending the problem would resolve itself. In a sense, this could describe Pakistan after the assassination of Benazir Bhutto in December 2007.

There are other parallels. Each time there is a Taliban-triggered bombing in, say, Peshawar, crowds gather and chant slogans against America and India. After the Bali bombings, Indonesia was subjected to numerous and fairly complicated theories arguing American and Israeli intelligence were behind the massacre.

There were comic phenomena, and then there were chilling ones. After Bali, Abu Bakar Bashir, leader of the Jemaah Islamiyah, became a terrorist icon and South-East Asia’s Osama bin Laden. In large swathes of Indonesia, however, he was anointed a folk hero. Herry, the friend and fanatic Dhume refers to in his book title, named Bashir “Man of the Year” on the cover of the magazine he (Herry) edited.

Herry takes Dhume to meet Bashir in his prison cell, greeting the evil genius as “ustad” (a term of respect with origins in Arabic rather than Bahasa or any known Indonesian language). Bashir is blunt: “Bush said if you’re not with us you’re against us. I’m against them. It’s a choice — like water and fire, or between carrots and steak. I’m a Muslim. I’m a leader of Hezbollah (the party of God); he is the leader of the kafirs.”

Bashir had made his choice. He expected everybody in Indonesia to make theirs too — or face the consequences.

In the time Dhume knows them, Herry and wife have two daughters. The first is named Draupadi, as is so common with Indonesians comfortable with a Muslim religious identity and a Hindu cultural idiom. By the time the younger daughter, Ziyadilma, comes along, Herry has exorcised himself of his pre-Islamic legacy (or baggage). He is now writing pamphlets called Signs of Freemasons and Zionists in Indonesia, exploring hidden meanings in pyramids on United States dollar bills and — combining economic grievance with religious prejudice — holding forth on “the Jewish characteristics of the Chinese”.

Is it any different from street discourse in Lahore or Rawalpindi denouncing the scheming Hindu ‘lalas’? The economically successful neighbour is always a problem, in Mexico as much as in North Korea. In Islamist mythology, however, the successful neighbour is also the religious infidel, a regional variant of the grasping Shylockian Jew.

In the past half-decade, Indonesia has not surrendered to JI or to the Islamist political parties. Rather, pushed by Australia, it has busted terror cells, and its elite continue their libertine partying amid the dazzle of upmarket Jakarta. The economy too has begun to recover. Yet, even in a country blessed with enormous natural resources and rich economic and social achievement this is not going to be enough. The Islamist straitjacket can be pushed back but never broken. To think that could be Pakistan’s best case scenario.

Malayappan · Post by **Malayappan** » 14 Nov 2009 12:05

Ayesha Siddiqua writes..

The threat within
Ayesha Siddiqa The Dawn, Friday, 13 Nov, 2009
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... -319-zj-03

Jamaat-i-Islami leader Fareed Paracha — argued that the Taliban were being needlessly maligned since there was no evidence available to prove that the attacks were being carried out by the Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan.

I would go further and apprise the writer of another crucial fact that technically, there are no home-grown terrorists in Pakistan since there has never been any conviction in a major case of terrorism.

I would like to refer to the golden words of Punjab’s Law Minister Rana Sanaullah in response to the allegation of south Punjab turning into a hub of extremism and terrorism.

The minister felt there was no training taking place in the region and if people were getting recruited to fight in Afghanistan or other places, how could the government stop this. After all, we live in a free country.

We in Pakistan are coming close to a point where we can comfortably forget that we have elements within that want to take over (perhaps not physically) the state in pursuance of their pan-Islamic agenda. The war being fought by Pakistan due to international pressure is what has caused all the violence.