Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

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Malayappan
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Malayappan » 27 Nov 2009 12:36

Keeping in mind what Shiv wrote earlier, this letter by Hafiz Sayeed can be an interesting read...
Saeed slams suicide attacks

Unfortunately many DDM reports seem to have missed the positioning...

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby symontk » 27 Nov 2009 13:45

The way to undermine Pakistaniyat is to pick out the most egregious and murderous actions by Pakistan (or in Pakistan), identify an Islamic connection and then ask the ummah and the world at large if this is what Islam is all about.

By stating (as a foregone conclusion) that these actions are mandated by Islam we are "pre-silencing' any members of the ummah (who may agree that Pakistan is screwing islam) and scaring them because they will see us as anti-Islamic.

The foundations of Pakistaniyat are based on the following premises


1) Islam is perfect
2 We (Pakistanis) are islamic
3) All that we do is in the name of Islam
4) Opposing us is opposing Islam

This cannot be opposed by opposing Pakistanis - who will instantly dub you anti-Islamic. You can only oppose this by equating Pakistani actions with Islam and asking for confirmation from the ummah if that is correct.


This again will not work since Pakistan has Taqqiyya and also the actions done by human beings can be reversed by God, so no issues even if some pakistanis have done some "mistakes"

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby SSridhar » 27 Nov 2009 13:56

Malayappan wrote:Saeed slams suicide attacks.

It has been a consistent and long time policy of the Lashkar. They prefer fidayeen attack where the jihadi fights till the end to either die and attain shahdat or come out alive as a ghazi.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Dipanker » 27 Nov 2009 14:17

symontk wrote:
The way to undermine Pakistaniyat is to pick out the most egregious and murderous actions by Pakistan (or in Pakistan), identify an Islamic connection and then ask the ummah and the world at large if this is what Islam is all about.

By stating (as a foregone conclusion) that these actions are mandated by Islam we are "pre-silencing' any members of the ummah (who may agree that Pakistan is screwing islam) and scaring them because they will see us as anti-Islamic.

The foundations of Pakistaniyat are based on the following premises


1) Islam is perfect
2 We (Pakistanis) are islamic
3) All that we do is in the name of Islam
4) Opposing us is opposing Islam

This cannot be opposed by opposing Pakistanis - who will instantly dub you anti-Islamic. You can only oppose this by equating Pakistani actions with Islam and asking for confirmation from the ummah if that is correct.


This again will not work since Pakistan has Taqqiyya and also the actions done by human beings can be reversed by God, so no issues even if some pakistanis have done some "mistakes"


Beside, anything and everything, right or wrong, is kosher against the infidels. So it is ok to cheat, lie, beg, use terror, etc. against the infidels. In doing so the Paki faithful incurs no sin.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby shiv » 27 Nov 2009 17:06

symontk wrote:This again will not work since Pakistan has Taqqiyya and also the actions done by human beings can be reversed by God, so no issues even if some pakistanis have done some "mistakes"



I have no doubt that you are right. And that is the problem. We really need to make Pakis say what you are saying and not pre-empt them as you are doing. For that we have to start saying that Pakistani actions are Islamic actions and we are powerless to question Islam and we have to accept Pakistani actions because they know Islam. Let them come and say that their own actions were "mistakes".

If you, a kafir, hands them the excuse on a platter, you are escaping from a great opportunity to force Pakistanis into a corner of accepting that Pakistanis are only being Islamic, but Islam is violent. We have to do that to damage Pakistaniyat. I am afraid that you are giving excuses even before anyone has tried that. That IMO is an opportunity lost.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby rajpa » 27 Nov 2009 17:45

what is tsp?
1. a land for muslims to take refuge from non-muslims?
2. a land for muslims to live an ideal muslim life?

if 1 -> muslims should never leave tsp - for uk, usa or anywhere else, including india. so their claim to kashmir on this basis is moot. i.e if muslims could live in other countries, they could live in india as well.

if 1 -> muslims should never be killed by other muslims in tsp - this will make them refugees elsewhere, making 1 moot again.

if 2 -> tsp should become completely convert all systems including governance to islam. this has been a historical failure.

so tsp is stillborn. this is the innate contradiction in tsp. so it will die soon.
Last edited by rajpa on 27 Nov 2009 17:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby SSridhar » 27 Nov 2009 17:46

T F T is out
From Such Gup
Fundo lobby wins

As with everything else in Pakistan, the world of cricket is also riven with intrigue and divided into cabals. Currently, there are three (known) groups which work at cross-purposes with each other. There’s the Karachi Group in which there’s Javed Miandad, Younas Khan and Shahid Afridi. Then there’s the Lahore Group of Shoaib Malik and junior cricketers like Imran Nazir. And finally there’s the Fundo Group of Saeed Anwar, Inzamam ul Haq, Misbah ul Haq and Muhammad Yousaf nee Youhana. This latter has finally triumphed in that they’ve contrived to make their man, the holy of holies, Muhammad Yousaf the new captain of the cricket team. Our mole also reports that MY is now a devoted presence at the Tableeghi Ijtema in Raiwind.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby jrjrao » 27 Nov 2009 18:18

It seems that it was only yesterday that the Pakis, down to the very last of them RAPEs, were crying all at once about how bad the Kerry-Lugar bill was, and how it, and the US aid, should be rejected out of hand.

But now, Pakis are back doing what they do best, and what is known as the second pillar of the Ideology of Pakistan, namely begging Americans for more grease for their sore musharrafs:

Pak seeks power relief from US
http://pakobserver.net/200911/27/news/topstories05.asp
Deliberations are underway with US authorities to seek arrangement for targeted subsidies...

To avert this pressure (from IMF), the official said, the government functionaries have started negotiating with US authorities for the monetary support...

Islamabad, the official said, has also asked the US functionaries to help provide relief against FATA and Waziristan’s power tariff arrears, where in Pak military is at war with militants not to save the country, but also to save the whole world.

It is very hard to collect the electricity arrears during the war time which is why the incumbent regime has asked Washington to help on this front bailout the beleaguered economy of Pakistan.


Meanwhile, worth recalling is this rant last week from the earth-e-shaster, which rails about the "filthy" and "deranged" and "dirty minded" fools in Pakistan who "are still working on their filthy agenda of turning this overwhelmingly Muslim State into a secular one."

Most ridiculous idea of changing country’s name
http://www.pakobserver.net/200911/20/Editorial01.asp

This bit of Paki panic was somewhat alleviated by Kiyani's speech in Peshawar, which the e-a-s happily approves:

Quaid must be happy with Gen Kayani
http://pakobserver.net/200911/27/Editorial03.asp
The speech of the COAS, we are confident, was a categorical response in the perspective of the demand coming from ANP leaders that instead of Islamic Republic of Pakistan the name should be changed with Peoples Republic of Pakistan. That statement created a stir in the country as it was not only shocking and intriguing but also tantamount to negation of the two-nation theory....Over one million Muslims of the Subcontinent were massacred and women raped at the time of partition. The unparallel freedom struggle and sacrifices were rendered for Islamic ideology and the masses would not allow anyone to mutilate the ideological face of Pakistan.

In the end we would urge all concerned that for God’s sake, don’t try to erode the very foundations of Pakistan. In our analysis the ideology of Pakistan is a cohesive, inspiring and uniting force and in a sense even more powerful instrument to defend the country than the nuclear assets.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby shiv » 27 Nov 2009 18:59

jrjrao wrote:Quaid must be happy with Gen Kayani
http://pakobserver.net/200911/27/Editorial03.asp



Two interesting statements - the first basically confirms what I have been suspecting - ie that even the Army cannot roll back Islamic extremism because Sunni Islamization is complete. There will be no near term change in this so this information can be utilised in various ways :D :twisted:
Pakistan was created in the name of Islam by our forefathers and each one of us should work for strengthening the country and make firm commitment towards achieving the goal of turning it into a true Islamic State.


Second:
In our analysis the ideology of Pakistan is a cohesive, inspiring and uniting force and in a sense even more powerful instrument to defend the country than the nuclear assets


uh ohhh? What's up? Weren't the nuclear assets meant to protect Pakistan? :eek:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby SSridhar » 27 Nov 2009 20:23

jrjrao wrote:Meanwhile, worth recalling is this rant last week from the earth-e-shaster, which rails about the "filthy" and "deranged" and "dirty minded" fools in Pakistan who "are still working on their filthy agenda of turning this overwhelmingly Muslim State into a secular one."

Most ridiculous idea of changing country’s name
http://www.pakobserver.net/200911/20/Editorial01.asp

Quaid must be happy with Gen Kayani
http://pakobserver.net/200911/27/Editorial03.asp


Kayani's riposte was in reference to the audacity of ANP & PPP to have suggested dropping the 'Islamic' prefix from the name of the country. Field Marshal Ayub Khan Hilal-i-Pakistan, Hilal-i-Jura’at, no less, tried that and had to quickly restore that.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby NRao » 27 Nov 2009 21:23

A nation of ........................

So, what else is new?

Lashkar man David Headley related to Pak PM Gilani

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby NRao » 27 Nov 2009 21:26

Pak-China military nexus an area of serious concern: Antony

"Other nations are expecting more and more from us in meeting some common challenges. We have been making sincere and continuous efforts to resolve long outstanding issues in our region. We have always strived for peaceful relations with all our neighbours. Even with a vibrant democracy and a prospering economy, we cannot ignore the security calculus," he said.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby A_Gupta » 27 Nov 2009 21:40

....where in Pak military is at war with militants not to save the country, but also to save the whole world.


It is an implicit admission that Pakistan is the source of world terrorism, otherwise this cannot be a battle to save the whole world.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby anupmisra » 27 Nov 2009 21:43


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby anupmisra » 27 Nov 2009 21:44



Aren't all pookies related to each other?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Ananya » 27 Nov 2009 21:46

With the dubai crisis all Paks will flock to Dubai :)

India can seize this opportunity and offer abt 5B$ in loans and there by getting all the Thugs/Jokers hiding there to be brought back to jails.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Paul » 28 Nov 2009 00:38

and so it begins....

Iindia refuses asylum to 66 Gohar Shahis from Pakistan

<>By Iftikhar Gilani

NEW DELHI: The Indian government has refused to grant asylum to 66 Pakistanis from the Gohar Shahi sect, and launched the process to deport them.

Three years ago, the 66 members of the sect crossed over to India, and held a sit in along with their Indian associates near Indian parliament, burning their Pakistani passports. However, the protest landed them in jail.

They had applied for asylum, saying they were members of the Gohar Shahi sect, “which is closer to Hinduism than Islam”.

The Indian Home Ministry on Thursday told the Delhi High Court that the group’s appeal for political asylum could not be entertained, and the process for their deportation had begun.

The group – currently detained at Delhi’s Tihar jail and facing the charge of staying in India without valid documents – filed the appeal for asylum a year ago.

The government has now filed an application with a city court seeking permission to withdraw cases against the 66 Pakistanis under the Passport Act and the Registration of Foreigners Act, to make their immediate deportation possible.

Home Ministry officials said although it was a possibility that the 66 Pakistanis posed no threat to India, the government was not ready to take a risk after the Mumbai terror attacks last year.

The group’s appeal to involve the UN Human Rights Commission (UNHRC) in the case was also rejected. “Summoning the UNHRC is out of our jurisdiction.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Akshut » 28 Nov 2009 02:19

Can a scientific study be taken up by some "NGO" to find the level of intellect depravedness, which has occurred to the puries since 1947? Just like a scientific report that comes out from time to time. I am very curious to know the percentage level of drop, and the future trends.
Anyone interested in a psychology PhD.? Here's a great idea.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby harbans » 28 Nov 2009 02:43

Has the PA handed over nuke charge to civilians? I find that hard to believe.

http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/nov/ ... gilani.htm

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Virupaksha » 28 Nov 2009 02:49

Shiv,

Your solution of giving a "fait accompli" is nice. But there is the river vitarani of thoughts one needs to cross. Fortunately or unfortunately, how much ever you want to delink it, India's policy towards Pakistan has been developed with more than an eye on the India's relation towards its own muslim community and how it tries to make IMs feel as if they are losing out on nothing, by not moving to Pakistan. India's efforts all these years has been rightly or wrongly, to try to make IMs insulated from Pakistan by pandering and appeasement upto a certain level.

Now your statements "Pakistan reflects Islam, and Pakistani actions are perfectly correct under islam." Every move or statements on islam has an effect on IM community. Now apply your game theory to see its effects on IMs and the contra wing from the "right" hindus.

In short I think that you talking about making it a "fait accompli" has not been thought through.

I agree that what you said might be beneficial for us wrt to Pakistan. On the other side harmful wrt to IMs and our relations to other muslim countries.

In the story context, the baby(Pakistan) is not we want to save. Does any body on BR really wants to save this "baby"?. It is the "innocence" we want to save.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby animesharma » 28 Nov 2009 03:00

The way to undermine Pakistaniyat is to pick out the most egregious and murderous actions by Pakistan (or in Pakistan), identify an Islamic connection and then ask the ummah and the world at large if this is what Islam is all about.

from article above..
Pakistan was created in the name of Islam by our forefathers and each one of us should work for strengthening the country and make firm commitment towards achieving the goal of turning it into a true Islamic State


If policy maker are listening.. this is a goldmine.

whats the possibility of change in equation
from "pakistan= islam" to "islam!=pakistan"

Can a scientific study be taken up by some "NGO" to find the level of intellect depravedness, which has occurred to the puries since 1947? Just like a scientific report that comes out from time to time. I am very curious to know the percentage level of drop, and the future trends.
Anyone interested in a psychology PhD.? Here's a great idea.

DO you think people in pakistan will participate in any scientific study, unless its renamed as "vigyan-e-islam" study.
Beside what else is left to measure? In 1947, only its leaders were extremist and deceased. Some world-class productive gov planning has resulted in spread of virus to the bottom of pyramid.
Hell even a street dog in Karachi now barks and can't sleep if it sees all three colors of Indian flag in a day. The recent upgradation has improved their skill, now the order of visual appearance of colors don't matter. :mrgreen:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Prem » 28 Nov 2009 03:07

Regarding Retardness and Ratness of Pakistanis , Paki living in Stepmotherland Britian are ideal subject to study .The data can be collected from British health department and pretty fairly applied to the whole of Pakistan.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby RamaY » 28 Nov 2009 05:00

shiv wrote:Perhaps the idea is too complex for most people to understand. But the principle is simple. The idea is to create a fait accompli. Just accept that Pakistani actions are justified under islam. Your particular objections come up only after we make that connection. We (India) have not made that connection yet. We are too busy blaming Pakistan and too scared to mention the fact that Pakistani actions are based on Islam.

Show me one Indian spokesperson who has publicly made the connection and said that "if Islam says that this is correct then Pakistanis correct"

All that we do is to weakly bleat "Pakistan is wrong"

What Pakistan does is to tell us "Bugger off. We are Islamic and we are doing those things for Islam. You say we are wrong because you are anti-Islamic"

We need to change our way of handling Pakistan by latching on to the worst Pakistani excesses and saying that Pakistan is right because they are upholding Islam. Pakistan is not wrong. They are only being Islamic. Don't blame Pakistan. Only after we say that can we start worrying about what Iran and KSA might say.

In fact Iran and KSA have only two choices
1) Accept that Pakistan is Islamic and Islam=murder
or
2) Deny that Pakistan is islamic

If choice 1 is taken it is a self goal against Islam. If choice 2 is taken Pakistan gets an ungli up its backside.


Good approach Shiv-ji.

But that doesn't capture the islamic-mind in its entirity. What about "Islam means peace and Islam is against murder" and "it is all YYY conspiracy to defame Islam" arguments.

Your approach puts too much trust on "logical" mind of Islamic world, and secular-values of Christian-West.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Gagan » 28 Nov 2009 05:25

Zardari has transferred the N weapons switch to Geelani.

Is this true?
Wasn't the Pak fauj in charge of the N weapons? when did the netas in la la land ever get the N switch?

Or is it a case of a hot potato, too hot to handle and so the passing the parcel game going on? It seems to be the key to the barn door that is being passed around when the horse has already bolted away.
No one wants to keep that key with him and take the blame from the awaam for having being complicit in the horse being stolen.
:D

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby shiv » 28 Nov 2009 07:07

ravi_ku wrote:In short I think that you talking about making it a "fait accompli" has not been thought through.

I agree that what you said might be beneficial for us wrt to Pakistan. On the other side harmful wrt to IMs and our relations to other muslim countries.


Ravi the real problem is not that it cannot be done the way I envisage. The problem is to word it and time it just right. I believe it can be done just right but as a people we are too ham fisted to figure that out.

One cannot say that for every one of Pakistan's actions. Pakistan may do a hundred egregious acts in the name of islam - but in the course of that there will be perhaps 10 actions of note that can be picked on to ask rhetorically. 'Perhaps Pakistan is justified in doing this because they are an Islamic state and perhaps islam mandates this in Pakistan although that does not seem to be the case in India" (The is just an example. The wording and timing depends on the act)

Of course Indian Muslims too are welcome to come up with objections. If an egregious action (say a terrorist attack) is carried out in the name of Islam, it is pure pseudosecularism to fear that Indian Muslims will feel hurt if we point that out. We are not doing our duty as Indians if we do not point that out.

The Mumbai acts which have recorded conversations of appeals to Allah and that rewards Allah will give for murdering people is classic case that must be utilised to the hilt. Not doing so is a blunder of monumental proportions. A simple example in this case. It is semantics but semantics are vitally important here.

Snatches of recorded conversations clearly reveal the terrorists and their masters refer to Allah repatedly. May Allah accept my martyrdom. Bismillah. Inshallah.etxc. Every one of these references to Allah has been translated as "God". Now that is fine as long as translator and viewers all accept that Allah=God. But it is pure (pseudo)secularism to make that assumption. The truth is that the terrorists are speaking of Allah in a world in which the identity of God is not clearly accepted. What is the harm in translating Allah as Allah, and Inshallah as "Allah willing" and not "God willing"?

Imagine if ten Hindu terrorists are recorded as shouting "Jai Shri Ram" while murdering 200 innocent people - would the translators translate "Jai Shri Ram" as "Victory to God"?. No Sir - I think we have allowed pseosecularism to affect the way we think and see the world. What amazes me is that we who are so keen on recognising pseudosecularism in others are completely unable to recognise it when it hits us in the face. It is so easy to call someone else a dhimmi.

Pakistan has hitched its survival on to being Islamic, and deflects criticism against Pakistan as the criticism of people who are anti Islamic. The only way we can undermine this trick is to point out that if Pakistan is Islamic all its actions must be Islamic too. If Pakistan commits a murder, murder is Islamic. Why feel embarrassed or worried to say that. It is those who disagree who must point that out. To you and to Pakistan.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby SSridhar » 28 Nov 2009 07:22

harbans wrote:Has the PA handed over nuke charge to civilians? I find that hard to believe.
http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/nov/ ... gilani.htm

Gagan wrote:Zardari has transferred the N weapons switch to Geelani.

Is this true?
Wasn't the Pak fauj in charge of the N weapons?

Gents, so long as Musharraf was there and holding the charge of nukes, all was well with the Corps Commanders of the PA. When he left, and the power transferred to Zardari, the PA was miffed that it lost the nuke command. Not that it mattered much on the ground, but the PA wouldn't have even liked the nuke button in the hands of a non-military person and that too a member of the Bhutto clan. But, there was not much that the PA could do. Anyway, they were working cleverly to drive a wedge between Gilani, who was bending to the PA, and Zardari. The PA would certainly prefer the nuke command to be in the hands of somebody they are comfortable working with. They know that they cannot have it in the hands of the Army itself, though they would much like it that way. At this point of time, PA would be happy to work behind the Gilani smokescreen. The passing of the nuclear button last night from Zardari to Gilani is either the result of an unbearable pressure brought on Zardari to which he wilted, or an attempt by Zardari to establish a tenuous peace between himself and the PA. Looking at the chain of events in the last few weeks such as his willingness to get rid of NRO, his new found combative approach in shutting down the GEO programme and his assertion that only an impeachment can get rid of him etc., I suspect the latter approach by Zardari.

But, Pakistan being Pakistan, nothing is permanent. If suddenly the PM is given persona-non-grata by the PA and the President becomes closer to the PA, a new ordinance will be issued transferring the nuclear command back to the President. It is simple to do that in Pakistan because it is a country that runs on ordinances, not formal Laws.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Virupaksha » 28 Nov 2009 07:56

Shiv,

There are two things. One is how it is "as is" and the other is how we "want to be". I will be frank. Only a ten eye blind person can say that TAM(terrorist attack on mumbai) was anything else but an act carried out in the name of islam. It is the tiger in the room which no one wants to talk about and unless something is done, the tiger is going to eat us one day or another.

Right now we are the person in the cage, who is closing his eyes hoping that his closing the eyes will somehow result in the tiger not seeing him. Oh yes, we are dhimmi. Who said India as a nation isnt?

What you are saying is basically open the eyes and go infront of it , for right or wrong to kill it. I am saying well we can do it, but there is going to be most probably loss of life or limbs. Is India ready for that particular bargain?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Prem » 28 Nov 2009 08:50

Cross Posting , M please tolerate this discretion as Achmed the Paki is Must to understand Pakistaniyat.


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby NRao » 28 Nov 2009 09:13

A real keeper.

Looks like a Paki too.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Pranav » 28 Nov 2009 09:33

shiv wrote:Of course Indian Muslims too are welcome to come up with objections. If an egregious action (say a terrorist attack) is carried out in the name of Islam, it is pure pseudosecularism to fear that Indian Muslims will feel hurt if we point that out. We are not doing our duty as Indians if we do not point that out.

The Mumbai acts which have recorded conversations of appeals to Allah and that rewards Allah will give for murdering people is classic case that must be utilised to the hilt. Not doing so is a blunder of monumental proportions. A simple example in this case. It is semantics but semantics are vitally important here.

Snatches of recorded conversations clearly reveal the terrorists and their masters refer to Allah repatedly. May Allah accept my martyrdom. Bismillah. Inshallah.etxc. Every one of these references to Allah has been translated as "God". Now that is fine as long as translator and viewers all accept that Allah=God. But it is pure (pseudo)secularism to make that assumption. The truth is that the terrorists are speaking of Allah in a world in which the identity of God is not clearly accepted. What is the harm in translating Allah as Allah, and Inshallah as "Allah willing" and not "God willing"?

Imagine if ten Hindu terrorists are recorded as shouting "Jai Shri Ram" while murdering 200 innocent people - would the translators translate "Jai Shri Ram" as "Victory to God"?. No Sir - I think we have allowed pseosecularism to affect the way we think and see the world. What amazes me is that we who are so keen on recognising pseudosecularism in others are completely unable to recognise it when it hits us in the face. It is so easy to call someone else a dhimmi.


All logically sound. But you are setting yourself up for an ideological battle with Islam itself when some 14% of the Indian population is Muslim, and about 90% of those believe Islam is perfect. Maybe you can bite that off but can you chew it?

The other option is to repeat the platitudes that Islam is the Religion of Peace, this is not true Islam, and sweep the egregious Hadiths under the carpet.

shiv
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby shiv » 28 Nov 2009 09:54

Pranav wrote:All logically sound. But you are setting yourself up for an ideological battle with Islam itself when some 14% of the Indian population is Muslim, and about 90% of those believe Islam is perfect.


That is why the argument has to be used selectively. The wording and timing have to be just right.

When an Indian Muslim is caught raping someone (say a daughter in law) it would be inappropriate to blame Islam. (We often do that on here)

But when Pakistan clearly uses Islam to do something terrible, one needs to make the connection between Pakistan and islam and ask if this is what Islam is about. It would be wrong to say "Islam is like this". The right way is to rhetorically ask if this is what Islam calls for. The actual wording and timing are critical. An insinuation or ishara often works better than an accusation.

I am basically talking about a fairly sophisticated psyops exercise to pin the blame on Pakistan, or alternately blame a Pakistani action on Islam in a way that is designed to hurt Pakistanis who use Islam as an excuse to do something. Such opportunities do present themselves from time to time and we need to use them without botching it or letting it pass.

There is no other go. That is necessary to wipe Pakistaniyat in the sand.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby SSridhar » 28 Nov 2009 10:08

India & Pakistan: Case for Common Defence - Pervez Hoodbhoy
The same question that Nehru asked when Ayub Khan offered Joint Defence proposal, namely 'Joint defence against whom ?' needs to be asked again.

Splintered into a hundred jihadist Lashkars, each with its own agenda and tactics, Pakistan’s territory would become India’s eternal nightmare. When Mumbai-II occurs — as it surely would in such circumstances — India’s options in dealing with a nuclear Pakistan would be severely limited. . . . Internal collaborators, recruited from a domestic Muslim population that feels itself alienated from Hindu-India, would connive with the jihadists. Subsequently, as the Indian forces retaliate against Muslims — innocent and otherwise — the action-reaction cycle would rip the country apart.
. . .in the coming years, India’s best protection is likely to come from its traditional enemy, the Pakistan Army. Therefore, India ought to help now, not fight against it.
And yet, the imperative of mutual survival makes a common defence inevitable. Given the rapidly rising threat within Pakistan, the day for joint action may not be very far away.
As an ideological movement, the jihadists want to transform society as part of their wider agenda. They ride on the backs of their partners, the mainstream religious political parties like the Jamat-e-Islami and the Jamiat-e-Ulema-Pakistan. None of these has condemned the suicide bombings in Pakistani universities, schools, markets, mosques, and police and army facilities{a theme which we have repeatedly stressed here in BRf. More than what Hoodbhoy says, even many mainstream political parties such as PML-N/Q have kept silent or mumbled sweet nothings at the best}.
India should derive no satisfaction from Pakistan’s predicament. Although religious extremists see ordinary Muslims as munafiqs (hypocrites) — and therefore free to be blown up in bazaars and mosques — they hate Hindus even more. In their calculus, hurting India would buy even more tickets for heaven than hurting Pakistan. They dream of ripping apart both societies or starting a war — preferably nuclear — between Pakistan and India.
To create a future working alliance with Pakistan, and in deference to basic democratic principles, India must therefore be seen as genuinely working towards some kind of resolution of the Kashmir issue. Over the past two decades, India has been morally isolated from Kashmiri Muslims and continues to incur the very considerable costs of an occupying power in the Valley. Indian soldiers continue to needlessly die — and oppress and kill Kashmiri innocents. {Huh . .Indian land is occupied and troops deployed to kill terrorists sent in across the border within their own lands are termed as provocation enough ? And, India must work for peace ? No role for Pakistan in that ? Won't peace return when Pakistan reigns in its terrorists ? OTOH, jihadists are blamed by Hoodbhoy for the troubles within Pakistan but he is unwilling to blame them and their sponsors, the PA, for troubles in Kashmir.}

It is time for India to fuzz the Line of Control, make it highly permeable, and demilitarise it up to some mutually negotiated depth on both sides. Without peace in Kashmir the forces of cross-border jihad, and its hate-filled holy warriors, will continue to receive unnecessary succour. {Hate filled jihadists in Pakistan do not need a reason. They have many such as America, Israel, India, Kashmir, Chechenya, Philippines, Bali, the Arakan Valley, South Thailand, etc. Hoodbhoy must reflect as to why the Pakistanis froth at mouth corners to each one of these.}

India also needs to allay Pakistan’s fears on Balochistan. Although Pakistan’s current federal structure is the cause of the problem — a fact which the government is now finally addressing through the newly announced Balochistan package — it is possible that India is aiding some insurgent groups.
The reason for India to want a rapprochement with Pakistan, and vice versa, has nothing to do with feelings of friendship or goodwill. It has only to do with survival. For us in Pakistan, this is even more critical.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Jarita » 28 Nov 2009 10:12

How the hell did Chindu allow this article proposing that Kashmir semi seccede?
Who is the audience for this nonsense?

Stan_Savljevic
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 28 Nov 2009 10:17

We are going to see more examples like the Gohar Shahis, any institutional policy from the GoI or related bodies on these asylum matters. I see more cons than pros in allowing folks such as Gohar Shahis, despite humanitarian concerns.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Anujan » 28 Nov 2009 10:19

SSridhar wrote:India & Pakistan: Case for Common Defence - Pervez Hoodbhoy

Whats wrong with Hoodbhoy ? The usually reasonable and mild mannered academic, uses the same argument as the others "You had mumbai with Army in control, imagine the horror if the jihadis take over !". And on top of it says

Internal collaborators, recruited from a domestic Muslim population that feels itself alienated from Hindu-India, would connive with the jihadists.


WTF is this "Hindu-India" he is talking about, and why is he parroting the typical Paki-jihadi talking points ?

There are sections of Indian society which have discontent with the state. There is no doubt about it. The maoists are an example, northeast Naga rebels too. Add to it ULFA. Same thing with IMs. A few collaborate out of ideology, a few for money. How does that make a Hindu-India ?
Last edited by Anujan on 28 Nov 2009 10:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Gagan » 28 Nov 2009 10:22

What hoodboy doesn't realize or doesn't want to admit is that:

1. The terrorists have discovered the Munafiqs in pakistan because they can't reach the kafirs across the border and across the world to kill. Their action against the munafiqs is the direct result of their falling success rate against the kafirs.

2. The whiskey drinking pakistani RAPE class is feeling the heat. Slowly they are seeing the jihadis in their stark ugliness, this is a desperate cry for help to India before they all get slaughtered. The fact that they are a "Martial race" in their minds, and the fact that they themselves are responsible for this misfortune that has visited them, makes them use the language we see in Hoodboy's article here.
It is a bleating desperate cry for help, couched in the language of still holier-than-though, still superior, still martial pakis.

Time for these pigs to stew in the broth they though they will stew us in.

shiv
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby shiv » 28 Nov 2009 10:27

Gagan wrote:What hoodboy doesn't realize or doesn't want to admit is that:

1. The terrorists have discovered the Munafiqs in pakistan because they can't reach the kafirs across the border and across the world to kill. Their action against the munafiqs is the direct result of their falling success rate against the kafirs.

2. The whiskey drinking pakistani RAPE class is feeling the heat. Slowly they are seeing the jihadis in their stark ugliness, this is a desperate cry for help to India before they all get slaughtered. The fact that they are a "Martial race" in their minds, and the fact that they themselves are responsible for this misfortune that has visited them, makes them use the language we see in Hoodboy's article here.
It is a bleating desperate cry for help, couched in the language of still holier-than-though, still superior, still martial pakis.

Time for these pigs to stew in the broth they though they will stew us in.


Well said Sir. A "cent per cent" post.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby SSridhar » 28 Nov 2009 10:30

Outrage in Pakistan over FICCI report
A report by the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry recommending a series of extreme steps against Pakistan such as surgical strikes, “deniable” covert actions by India in Pakistani territory and blocking imports in the event of another Mumbai-type terrorist attack has caused outrage here.

The Foreign Ministry said it had noted the report, titled Task Force Report on National Security and Terrorism, “with deep concern.”

In a statement, it said that “such views are unhelpful to the cause of peace in South Asia.” It also expressed regret that FICCI had allowed itself to be carried away by “the tide of opportunistic propaganda.”

The Lahore Chamber of Commerce and Industry went a step further and said it was suspending all trade delegations to India until the resumption of the composite dialogue process.

The chamber, which met on Thursday to discuss the report, asked all Pakistani businessmen to stop travelling to India.

The meeting also criticised the composition of the task force that prepared the FICCI report. The task force included retired military and intelligence officials.

According to a report in the Dawn, the meeting concluded that FICCI’s name had been used by the Indian security establishment “for ulterior motives,” and noted that the report was “bound to create hostility and spell disaster of unimaginable magnitude between Pakistan and India. This is the height of irresponsibility and immaturity.”

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby pgbhat » 28 Nov 2009 10:31

Jarita wrote:How the hell did Chindu allow this article proposing that Kashmir semi seccede?
Who is the audience for this nonsense?

China, Pakis and their apologists. :|

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Postby Nandu » 28 Nov 2009 10:37

So, even the so called moderate, Hoodbhoy, can stop himself from negotiating with a gun to his own head.

:rotfl:


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