National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3503
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby Rudradev » 14 Nov 2009 10:42

RayC wrote: Knee jerk and ractive defence should be abandoned and a proactive policy put in place without grandiose dreams of glorious India of the past. It should be in the hands of those who have to deliver than with those who dream the impossible!


RayC, I agree with almost everything you have stated, except this part. I don't think there is anything wrong with attempting to articulate a national vision based on the values that have enabled India to survive terrible onslaughts while so many of her early contemporaries now exist only in the form of museum relics. "Those who have to deliver" need not be exclusive of those who seek inspiration from the glories of India's past, or the values that have endured and shaped her unique identity... why should they not seek inspiration in these things to fuel their capacity to deliver?

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 14 Nov 2009 11:03

Rudradev wrote:
RayC, I agree with almost everything you have stated, except this part. I don't think there is anything wrong with attempting to articulate a national vision based on the values that have enabled India to survive terrible onslaughts while so many of her early contemporaries now exist only in the form of museum relics. "Those who have to deliver" need not be exclusive of those who seek inspiration from the glories of India's past, or the values that have endured and shaped her unique identity... why should they not seek inspiration in these things to fuel their capacity to deliver?


Indeed, one must base one's ideas on the past. However, it must be balanced with the present.

Islam lives fiercely in the past and it is criticised as also there is no progress in such countries. The Taliban and the Deobandis are not ready to embrace the realities of life. Where has it taken them?

The Pope, losing in flock in Africa, has allowed pagan practices.

Therefore, we have to give slack.

I maybe tainted in religious allegory, by those who cannot respond rationally, but then I am honest and not cloaked in subterfuge as Indic!

Never believed in subterfuge!

I see India as a great country beyond religious, community and caste divides!

If that is wrong, forgive me!

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 14 Nov 2009 11:19

I will be frank.

When there was a policy letter that Bengalis should be watched during the Naxal problem, I, as a Adjutant of the unit, saw it before my CO.

I told him that I could be relieved of my appointment!

My country comes FIRST, ALWAYS AND EVERY TIME!

I have been born in what you would call the higher realms of Hindu social equation, renounced it and lived with what you would call as the lowest of the low while defending you all, and therefore I have seen it all! The lowest was as good as me - the highest!

Religion, community and caste is bogus!

It hurts me immensely when I find posters going gung ho on issues that divides and NOT UNITE and encourage such issues!


It is a country with many fools. Let us eliminate these fools by discourse!

I have a question.

If Hinduism is not a religion but a way of life, how is Islam not so?

In fact they are more so since they have follow everything that their Prophet did!

Why are we obfuscating?

Hinduism is a religion and let us rejoice in its greatness. Let us not go PC by calling it Indic.

Yet, let us not sell or forsake the realities of today. There are many of other faiths, let us embrace them and make India great!

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4218
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby Manish_Sharma » 14 Nov 2009 13:47

Priorities on the basic level:
1. Food Security: Whatever can be done to secure the cultivation worthy land, should be done not to mention a big chunk of taxpayers money should be used to make proper storage infra all over the land, it was so heart-breaking to see on TV so much of the wheat rotting on the fields of Punjab due to non availability of storage last month. Also so much fruits & vegetables are going rotten due to lack of packing boxes and transportation. Another aspect of saving the cultivating land is strictly prohibiting any kind of industrial or housing projects taking over the fertile land. Highly fertile lands of Punjab, Bengal should be saved from industrial or any kind of building projects. The industrial growth can be encouraged in the non fertile lands of Rajasthan, Orissa and Gujarat.
2. Energy Security: Lots of investment should be made in the technologies of alternative fuels. In this way funds can be made available for german/norwaygien Hydrogen Fuel Cell tech. Instead of importing expensive nuclear plants. It was fascinating to see on DW german channel how a man converted his skoda engine by adding a chamber in which he would pour all the plastic waste and it gave 30% fuel efficiency, higher speed & improved engine performance. These individuals can be invited to IITs, given all kind of funds, facilities to encourage a culture of techno savvy society.
3. Education: Big effort is needed to increase the number of primary schools, schools and colleges in higher education. But I think students opting to study outside the country should also be encouraged and if they want to stay and work outside this should also be helped, as these kids will help spreading our values cultures overseas. Here also we should remove the influence of Macauley and hidden leftist agendas from the education system.
4. Defence: I agree with Prem, in the coming times with the problems of Maoists and Islamic terrorism growing, not to mention having two bloodthirsty enemies on our borders. We do need lots of manpower in the armed forces. It also needs mention that Paramility Forces should also be brought under Regular Army, it will give the army officers also a deeper insight on how to manage the country in the aftermath of nuke war, not to mention the improvement in the training and equipment of Paramilitary forces.
Since we are not testing anytime soon for TNs as we are fully deterred with the consequences (sanctions etc.). To compensate that the Defence Budget should have totally separate section of budget for Nuclear warfighting machinery(Warheads, missiles, ATVs, Deep bunkers in the mountains protected by ABM). Since by not testing anymore we are saving so much money to grow economically, I think govt. should sanction a budget on the lines of something like 20 Arihants carrying 16 Agni Vs each with 3MIRVs, Huge funds for next generation Hypersonic missiles, 200 Agni Vs + 100 Agni IIIs, Bunkers buried deep under mountains and multilayered ABM defence situated on mountaintops, Dedicated satellites for the three services. A stockpile of 900-1000 warheads.
5. Law and Order: Reforming of the courts, computer systems and media vigilence can play a big part in it.

On the ideological level:
1.) Importance of Politicians should be brought down, ok they have the power to govern, but there is no need to invite them for coconut breaking for every kind of inauguration, naming roads, landmarks and other things after them.
A movement should be there to make people realise the great work done by people like Baba Amte, not to convert people or not for any noble prize. People should realise the work done by these kind of people. Why not name the bridges, schools, colleges after people like these.
I think cinema can work wonders on this front, with movies like Swades. This is the most important thing which can lay the basis for a country ridden with Dynastic Rule, nepotism.

2.) A counter media which only and only deals with questioning the media and showing it the mirror. Right now the trend in media is too much one sided and level of reporting is too much in favour of US, INC camp.

3.) A reformed beaureacracy: While ruling India, British created a bureaucracy which was harsh overbearing and with a mindset of the ruler. Unfortunately this mindset was found useful by the people who ruled the country either on national or state level irrespective of the party they were. Now with the advent of cameras , computers and TV media a more keen eye can be kept on the working output and behavior with public by bureaucrats.

4.) Thread: Every country has some kind of thread running common amongs the masses of the country. Whether its the christianity in Europe, Islam amongs Arabs & Persians, The slogan of American Dream (a melting pot culture) + christianity in US. Or a very basic Idea of Han Chinese with their Chinese New Year Celebration and Chinese literature, martial arts etc.
The most unfortunate thing in India is the Denial of this very thread which keeps the country together: Hinduism as a way of Life. Whatever we do we can never follow the French or American melting pot model. It would always be a salad bowl subcontinent with North Indians celebrating Deepawali & Holi, Gujaratis celebrating navratris, Bengalis celebrating Durga Puja, Marathis Ganeshutsav, South Indians Pongal, Sankranti. But still commonly tied with the Hindu way of life whether being athiests, yogis, Kali worshippers whatever.
Criminally it is being replaced with the hollow word: Secularism or Dharm Nirpekshta, which is a negative terms. How can a negative term be the common thread running amongst a culture or country.

harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby harbans » 14 Nov 2009 14:25

It hurts me immensely when I find posters going gung ho on issues that divides and NOT UNITE and encourage such issues!

If Hinduism is not a religion but a way of life, how is Islam not so?


Ray Ji, Indic culture has always sought to be inclusive. Thats why we have every religion here on Earth. Indic is intrinsically assimilative and non-exclusive. Abrahmic relgions are exclusive. Indic civilization is not Islamic civilization and our model for the future must not be to become an Islamic state. While under a secular and democratic frame Indics accomodate Islam, the same cannot be said of Islamic model state countries quite obviously.

Excluvist religious ideologies can only function effectively or respectfully with other minority/ majority coexisting relgions under a a secular constitutional framework.

It's not for no reason that democracy works in India. It's it's inherent indic tolerance that keeps it alive. The day we abandon that, ideological vacuum will make this nation loose it's moorings and we'll move away from pluralism itself. So we have to protect, enhance our age old Indic value systems not abandon them. It's the only way we can progress with our civilization intact.

brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby brihaspati » 14 Nov 2009 21:01

A request again to all, to please be careful in not responding to posts that raise issues of comparison between Abrahamic and non-Abrahamic belief systems. In almost all previous threads which finally have been locked and removed from discussion, this was the start of going down the drain. This thread is about the national agenda for the next 40 years. There can be a question of rashtryia attitude towards "faiths" as part of the national agenda.

I would specifically request that any such discussion be restricted to "applicable policies" like homogenization of the civil law or not. It has to be an applicable agenda. Do not identify yourself with those blanketly being accused of subterfuge. These sort of statements are aimed at a vague, unnamed supposed "Indic" fanatic who supposedly indulges in subterfuge or dreams the impossible etc. If you take the bait and try to prove that "Indics" do not indulge in subterfuge, or that dreams are important and dreamers start the processes of change in societies, you are drawn into the trap. Since every such subdebate has so far led into locking of the thread and stopping useful lines of discussion, I think we should be able to recognize the pattern.

These kind of blanket and sweeping statements are never going to be recalled/restrained in this forum which makes this line of provocation virtually protected and guaranteed of success. This could be a "subterfuge" tactic of paranoidly eliminating certain lines of political/ideological explorations, consistent with the "vacuum" line favoured so far by the longest occupiers of GOI.

Once again, please do not respond to any apparent criticism, abuse, name-calling or ascriptions to "Hindu/Hinduism/Indic" or engage in a subdebate trying to prove otherwise.

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 14 Nov 2009 21:36

One would also respectfully request not to raise the issue of religion into the discussion. It being irrelevant and just to provoke!

It is time to be Indian and not follow narrow schism as Raj Tackeray, Imam of Jama Mazjid or any Hindu icon or the last Pope and US evangelists are at.

It is utter nonsense of Abrahamic and non Abrahamic religions clashing!

How is it in the Army we don't find this divide?

This is an answer that I DEMAND from Brahaspati and others!

Is the Army a foreign organisation?

Are we fools and not Indians?

It is time all this Abrahamic /non Abrahamic exponents explain!

Please explain why Abrahamic religion people die for non Abhramic fighting the Abrahamic?

JwalaMukhi
BRFite
Posts: 1635
Joined: 28 Mar 2007 18:27

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby JwalaMukhi » 14 Nov 2009 21:40

Once again, please do not respond to any apparent criticism, abuse, name-calling or ascriptions to "Hindu/Hinduism/Indic" or engage in a subdebate trying to prove otherwise.

Bji, Will use astrology(in my limited knowledge, which is less than nothing) for once and gaze the crystal ball here: that the longevity of this and other similar threads is directly proportional to strength of Jupiter :) being in the right thread (house).

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 14 Nov 2009 21:59

Quote:
Once again, please do not respond to any apparent criticism, abuse, name-calling or ascriptions to "Hindu/Hinduism/Indic" or engage in a subdebate trying to prove otherwise


This is utter nonsense and pseudo intellectualism of the like of Arundhuti Roy!!

I am proud of India and being an Indian, but cannot see it disintegrating on narrow divides and pseudo intellectual bakwas!

If that is a sin, then I am guilty!

Can we chuck the Muslims, the Christians, the Brahmos, the Jains and every other non Hindu out?

Wake up!

The very idea of Abrahamic and non Abrahamic is stupid.

India, as I look at it, IS ONE with all its deficiencies.

Build on it and not divide!

I have lived my life in an organisation that has no divides and many a time my life has been saved by those who are not from my religious affiliation and many a time I have saved them! We were a Brotherhood! Proud of that. Is it a sin? If we can do it, why can't you?

Spare us of your narrow appreciation of nationhood. We are proud to be Indians and we ensure your sovereignty irrespective of our religious affiliations! Does that make you uneasy?

Keep you narrow ideals to yourself. We stupid people in the armed forces beyond religion are there to ensure that you sleep well!

I reiterate:

It is utter nonsense of Abrahamic and non Abrahamic religions clashing!

How is it in the Army we don't find this divide?

This is an answer that I DEMAND from Brahaspati and others!

Is the Army a foreign organisation?

Are we fools and not Indians?


Answer, if you have the guts.

I would like to know where we have gone wrong!

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 14 Nov 2009 22:35

No answer as yet?

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 14 Nov 2009 22:41

Since you still have no answer, it appears that you are merely postulating and acting smart!

Enough of all this silly Abrahamic and non Abrahamic and lets get down to business!

brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby brihaspati » 14 Nov 2009 22:44

Prem wrote
Harbans ji, not this time, if BRF is still alive. India must have standing army of many million sons of soils. Not having big army was the mistake and should not be repeated. In fact , we should actually welcome the oppertunity for inimical ideological forces throwing challenge to us. IMHO,The onlee way to lasting peace is to bury or cremate the Fasadi forces real deep,and that too on global level.


Prem ji,
I have bolded and highlighted parts of your post, which appear to have been interpreted as insinuating "religious" divides in the army. I cannot see any "religious divide" being explicitly hinted here. Taken in context of your brief post, it simply can be interpreted as a wish to have a larger manpower in the army that is sourced from Indians committed to the idea of the nation, and most likely to be found in large numbers where Indians reside - and in turn therefore also more likely to be "sons of the soil".

You and Manish Sharma ji, have both brought up the issue of future development of the military forces of India. Can you please set these as you see now, in the framework of a National Agenda, and in time frame? Much of this can perhaps be based on the technicalities discussed in much greater detail and professionally in the mil-forum. But we should be able to have a timeline on the broad points that you can envisage.

muraliravi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2819
Joined: 07 May 2009 16:49

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby muraliravi » 14 Nov 2009 22:48

harbans wrote:You can call me pessimistic, but I am genuinely worried.

Frankly i think 2010 to 2050 should be India's finest 'hours'. What worries me is 2100-2150 period. Our finest period will be usurped by ideology inimical to the unbeliever. There are no 2 ways it's not going to happen, unless something is done fundamentally different from the way we approach this how we see this nations' value systems. We are having just too many problems presently to focus correctly on that.


Harbans ji, could you explain in more detail, are u saying islam will grow more, because if that is your case, maybe i can dispel that even by technical arguments using numbers, if its something else, please highlight.

brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby brihaspati » 14 Nov 2009 22:50

In addition to what I have written above, Prem ji's post also brought up something else in my mind.

I think the French Army has an unit that is explicitly not made up of "sons of the soil". This unit has a long standing and repute of professional integrity and commitment. Something like that should perhaps also be in our thoughts for India. They serve a lot of useful ideological, political and military purpose in any expansive policies that may be undertaken in the future.

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 14 Nov 2009 22:56

With all due regards, the army is rooted in nationhood and not religious divides and it requires none to tell them so! Or else Sikhs would not have stormed the Golden Temple.

We are beyond religion and the nation requires to learn from us!

It is fools who divide us on religion!

Enough of Moslem and Christians have died for the country, while many Hinduvta were sleeping in their beds!

So, give us a break!

brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby brihaspati » 14 Nov 2009 22:58

muraliravi wrote
Harbans ji, could you explain in more detail, are u saying islam will grow more, because if that is your case, maybe i can dispel that even by technical arguments using numbers, if its something else, please highlight.


Discussion on growth of Islam can become part of national agenda only if that growth is seen to be inimical to survival or flourishing of "India". That is a whole dispute which cannot be discussed on BRF as far as I can estimate. If you really intend to take up this discussion can you please place it on some relevant thread within GDF at least for a try?

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 14 Nov 2009 23:03

t is utter nonsense of Abrahamic and non Abrahamic religions clashing!

How is it in the Army we don't find this divide?

This is an answer that I DEMAND from Brahaspati and others!

Is the Army a foreign organisation?

Are we fools and not Indians?


Answer, if you have the guts.

I would like to know where we have gone wrong!


Still no answer?

sanjeevpunj
BRFite
Posts: 971
Joined: 04 Sep 2009 13:10

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby sanjeevpunj » 14 Nov 2009 23:05

Been reading the posts with deep interest. My personal view is that all are equal,all have an equal right to perform their duties for the elevation of India to a prosperous,powerful and globally accepted state.We are all proud of what India is, but we do not stoop down to see what makes India so great.Each individual,however insignificant,is contributing to India's growth on a daily basis.Each small contribution is important.India will shine...when each individual becomes sincere and realises his duty towards his country,and begins to perform his duty sincerely without seeking gratification in terms of under the table cash.

The real worry is that some individuals are taking away the National revenue by devious means, and depositing that wealth in banks abroad.This weakens India, it deprives those who toil everyday.Money meant for the projects in rural areas ends up in swiss banks.This is what weakens the nation.

muraliravi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2819
Joined: 07 May 2009 16:49

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby muraliravi » 14 Nov 2009 23:06

brihaspati wrote:
muraliravi wrote
Harbans ji, could you explain in more detail, are u saying islam will grow more, because if that is your case, maybe i can dispel that even by technical arguments using numbers, if its something else, please highlight.


Discussion on growth of Islam can become part of national agenda only if that growth is seen to be inimical to survival or flourishing of "India". That is a whole dispute which cannot be discussed on BRF as far as I can estimate. If you really intend to take up this discussion can you please place it on some relevant thread within GDF at least for a try?


Brihaspati saab,

that is why i wanted to know what harbans was referring to and why he put the 2100-2150 time frame?

samuel
BRFite
Posts: 818
Joined: 03 Apr 2007 08:52

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby samuel » 14 Nov 2009 23:11

Two important questions, I feel we must discuss here, and perhaps place on the National Agenda is the removal of 370 and establishment of Uniform Civil Code. If this debate can be held here, that would be great!

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 14 Nov 2009 23:14

samuel wrote:Two important questions, I feel we must discuss here, and perhaps place on the National Agenda is the removal of 370 and establishment of Uniform Civil Code. If this debate can be held here, that would be great!


Homosexuality is no big issue.

Uniform civil code is!

Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1504
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby Pulikeshi » 14 Nov 2009 23:15

S,

370 is a tough nut, but one could try....

However, many moons ago I explained (using others peoples research as well as my interpretation) why Indian activist judiciary is slowing moving us to "common civil code" even while keeping the civil law separate. JMT.
I think it is a matter of time... But this is a forum of Mithaksara what me worry? :shock:
Even BJP/RSS combine only offer lip service to this issue as everyone knows what is going on.
Of course - I am not their spokesperson or in anyway associated to them or will ever be! :P
Last edited by Pulikeshi on 14 Nov 2009 23:21, edited 2 times in total.

samuel
BRFite
Posts: 818
Joined: 03 Apr 2007 08:52

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby samuel » 14 Nov 2009 23:17

RayC --
Refering to Article 370 of the constitution of India: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_370

And UCC of course is applicable to homosexuals too, if that's what you mean.

samuel
BRFite
Posts: 818
Joined: 03 Apr 2007 08:52

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby samuel » 14 Nov 2009 23:19

So can we put item # 1 on our thread here for the next few pages
1. Uniform Civil Code
And as more come in we can slot them, but engage in this...what say participants?

S

SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5153
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby SBajwa » 14 Nov 2009 23:52

What is the nation of Bharat/India for which we need Agenda?

Nation of Bharat/India is the population/cultures/beliefs of people living in the land mass of India/Bharat with collective way forward to improve and protect their and the lives of the coming generations. This means that all Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Chamars, Brahmis, Tamilians, Bengalis, Punjabis,etc are allowed to have their own cultural ways along with collective economic progress.

There is a concept in Sikhism that is called "Chardhi Kala" Guru Nanak Introduced it. Literally translated it means "Always having a positive optimism" In other words despite having everything in our favor if we keep believing that we are bound to fail then we will fail and on the other hands with positive optimism we can turn any odds that are against to be towards us.

So.. in order to protect/grow the population, culture,ethics,ethos,way of life,collected knowledge, beliefs, etc of India we must grow economically as well as militarily to protect the economy and future economic interests.

Here is my perception of what would happen in next 40 years
From 2010 - 2050..

India and China will have 50% of the world's population., and not enough resources for that population., so we need to have many allies in our neighbourhood and other places around the world (Africa, South America, Russia, Far east)

Due to lack of resources in their land mass countries like Bangladesh, Burma, Pakistan, Afghanista and Nepal cannot sustain themselves., and will have to depend upon China or India.

America's will slowly drift away from the middle east oil towards Russia, Canada or South America. With information age maturing the next age is going to be the GREEN AGE., i.e. research in moving away from the fossil fuels and oil., Indian and Chinese students studying in America's universities are already contributing.

Terrorism will keep growing with their fictitious cries that "Islam is in danger" Islamic people will continue to use the liberties guaranteed by the democracies to spread the mindless agenda of Wahabiism to go back to 760s A.D.

so... Given above what should the Agenda of India be ?

brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby brihaspati » 15 Nov 2009 04:44

I would like to propose "expansion" beyond the current political boundaries of India as a national agenda. This does not immediately have to be a military expansion of conquest. However an agenda of expansion which keeps the possibility of military expansion in mind as a possibility - can actually also lead to internal development.

To expand outwardly, we will need to sort our domestic obstacles. This means eradication of fractures in subidentities, and generating sufficient drive in an economic powerhouse. So that there is sufficient surplus left to resource possible military expansions as well as investments needed to consolidate newly exapanded or incorporated territories.

The first of the two internal aspects is "fractured identity". Internally, all legal protection for exclusivism has to go. This means Article 370 and its variant for the NE. Or any such proposed in the future as their "gentle replacement", for relevant areas or for some new region. We are allowing exclusivism to become established through separate claims of treatment and immunity based on faiths, religions, ethnicity, regions, languages, or even constructed categories based on claims of historical trauma or repression (where such claims however will only be valid if they do not belong to certain "categories").

We do not challenge such claims, and we do not subject them to merciless deconstruction and criticism as long as they are not seen to be strengthening the hegemeony of the "majority community".

A ruthless ideological, political and finally legislative struggle to derecognize such claims of exclusivism has to become part of any national agenda. In 15 years, another 33% of electorate will join decisionmaking. So an intensive campaign from now could have a significant effect on attitudes towards homogenization in 15 years.

samuel
BRFite
Posts: 818
Joined: 03 Apr 2007 08:52

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby samuel » 15 Nov 2009 05:36

What other opportunities of freedom our routes exist for parties that have come to taste and take exclusivism for granted?

harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby harbans » 15 Nov 2009 06:08

One answer i can provide. Though it's not me but the Dalai lama who said it. It should answer Ray ji's query for an answer..

India a master and Tibet is its disciple: Dalai Lama

One may have an alien faith to practition in India, and India will provided the freedom for it's practice. Yet those faiths can never be allowed to take over what is sacred to India's core. Now or ever. If that happens, we are over. We may as well discuss how United India prospers under an Islamic flag for example. How we can all stand united and not divided under the crescent moon flag. How progress can dawn on us despite Sharia's imposition. Is not Turkey more developed than India today?

That answers Ray ji.

Krishna_V
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 36
Joined: 10 Oct 2009 02:34

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby Krishna_V » 15 Nov 2009 06:12

India is a union on states and it’s important that all Indians should understand the importance of unity. Even though our culture is diverse, spirit of India should be beyond any region and religion.

We need to improve our education system and make sure right from school children should be taught that we are all Indians and the feeling of India is beyond religion and region.
School History syllabus should include our contribution to human civilization and Science. Theories which are proved false needs to be removed from the school syllabus. Avoiding religion specific schools and bring unity among children

harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby harbans » 15 Nov 2009 06:26

^^ That has been done. It has resulted in us losing touch in Tibet, Kailash, Mansarover.

It has not prevented our neighbours propagating Maoism, uprooting social norms in Nepal, victimizing Tibet with little support in in 'secular' India. It has not prevented China an atheist nation, from claiming Buddhism as their own. It will be your, mine and our demise when we dissassociate our ancient heritage, culture and roots in favor of other ideologies.

We are witness to the loss in these 60 years. It is reflecting. We are bending and do not realize that the Karats, Nitya Rams, Roys are nibbling away because we fail to understand our core. Some of our refugee neighbours who have suffered very deeply do understand. Hence my last post.

We don't reciprocate and so are losing respect in the neighbourhood, hence Maoists and Chinese/ Islamic influence is rapidly gaining ground in our neighbourhood in detremence to Indian interests. We have to understand where we derive our pluralistic, incluvist core from. It's direct from our roots. Our doctrines. Not understanding and comprehending that will cause us getting uprooted.

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 15 Nov 2009 09:11

samuel wrote:So can we put item # 1 on our thread here for the next few pages
1. Uniform Civil Code
And as more come in we can slot them, but engage in this...what say participants?

S


Absolutely spot on!

vera_k
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2993
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 13:45

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby vera_k » 15 Nov 2009 09:53

Add caste and religion based reservations to the list of divisive items that need to be taken care of.

samuel
BRFite
Posts: 818
Joined: 03 Apr 2007 08:52

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby samuel » 15 Nov 2009 10:12

In his comments, Brihaspati, has pointed out a root that connects several such issues that arise from exclusivism and this, the UCC issue, is no different. It will be difficult to find people on this forum who will argue that we don't need a Uniform Civil Code. If that is to be the case, then may be the discussion can move straight away to how to bring it about.

On the other side the argument is somewhat simple:

Party A
1. Freedom of {Religion, Faith, X}
2. I am following my X.
3. My X allows me to come in defense of the nation and be a productive member. I am happy to do so. At any rate, it was already given to me.
4. Why are you controlling and contradicting my freedom of X
So, what to do? How do you propose to get UCC implemented, as the constitution calls for it!?
Up Ray's proverbial gum tree, or what?

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 15 Nov 2009 10:18

No not any gum tree of mine.

The UCC can be applied the same way the IPC is applied. It will override religious laws while still allowing freedom to practise any religion of one's choice.

If Sarkozy can do it, so can we!

Can Suttee be practised today?

In the National Agenda, one has to also ensure that there is dilution of separate identities. Build on the Indic culture if one wishes, but do it without aggression or flaunting it like a red rag before a bull.

There was an article in the Telegraph which showed that the majority of the Muslims are of Indian stock and not Arabic. It was the Bohra who had Yemeni links. Such articles (researched by a Muslim) require to educate those who think they are Arabic and not Indic!

Samuel posted a You-tube clip to show the fraud in conversion. These help the gullible to realise what we are against!

I have attended a Syrian Orthodox wedding, where the bride was dressed in a red saree with sandalwood tilak and wearing what they call 'thalis' (huge necklace with gold coin like accoutrement). So, embrace them. Don't repel them!

Imagine what Raj Thackeray is doing even though he claims to be a majority religion activist!

I heard Konimudhi yesterday and she was obliquely supporting this man.

First it was religion, then VP Singh brought in caste and now sub-nationalism!

It is very worrying!

This forum is read by many.

Let us build a national consensus that unites and not divides!

We must never forget that barbarians are at the gates!

There are many forces at work to destroy us by encouraging our divides.

Look at the RSS Boss who is setting BJP on the self destruct mode! The INC in tatters projecting the Dynasty!

We must be wary and careful!

I am not against any poster or his posts. What scares me is that we are self destructing ourselves as a Nation!

We have emerged from enslavement right from Babar's time. It is time to ensure we are no longer enslaved!

Anything that ensures that is our National Agenda!

As N3, the Bohuroopee says - Jai Ho!

Correct me if I am wrong!

I want a safe India, an India we are proud of and an India of ALL Indians!!

Is that a wrong thing to believe in?

I also want to know as an Indian (not a Mod) as to why most of the posters here did not go to a patshala and instead went to Abrahamic schools (which to them is so reprehensible) for their education?

I say assimilation is the credo not divisive.

Embrace the goodness of all and discard the bigotry!

Read the Islamic laws on Personal Hygiene. Much to learn. But discard their idea of chota jihad!

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 15 Nov 2009 11:22

Pranav wrote:
RayC wrote:Why bring in religions? It has divided the country enough or has it not?

We also have to understand that there could be many posters or lurkers. Why hurt someone's religious sentiments, even obliquely?


There is a dilemma between not hurting people's sentiments and making factual statements about certain ideologies.

It is also true that any political or religious ideology can be used for strategic and subversive purposes. That includes not only Maoism, Christianity, Islam but also Indic traditions (e.g. Ananda Marg, Abhinav Bharat).


Indeed.

Do so.

But put the facts on the table and not obfuscating the issue.

If Jihad is junk, which it is, do so.

If Deobandis are being silly say so openly. I have said so. Their fatwa on Bande Mataram is idiotic. I have appended the Urdu translation too! Nothing unIslamic. If they (Moslems of Pakistan) can say Pakistan Paindabad, they (Indian Moslems) can sing Bande Mataram!

It made me proud when a Muslim boy in a TV programme stated that he would proudly sing Bande Mataram and the Deobandis be damned!

India is changing. Help it to change!

Face facts and not be glib or act smart with words is what I say!

Religious ideologies are being used to subvert us. I have criticised the Pope and his silly idea of harvesting the souls of Asia. I have wondered what was the hullaballoo of Kandhamal etc. I have given examples of chicanery in MP to convert people. I have stated that if more are converted, it is not for the Faith, but for the coffers so that the priest can have more wine and good food!

I am even against such organisations like the RSS, VHP and the Bandar Brigade or whatever they are called. See what that Bhagwat man is doing!

All these religious chaps are out to divide us and it is not that I am not aware of the Indic past and a McCaulay clone! I am an Indian and India has to survive in this mess called the world. We have too little time to waste on issues that divide us!

I am against all charlatans.

To me my Nation comes first, always and every time.

My nation is my religion!

I thank the Army to instil that belief in me!

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 15 Nov 2009 12:03

Please continue the discussion on the National Agenda.

There are some real good ideas.

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 15 Nov 2009 12:21

The prime concern for the National agenda is primary education so that all citizens can sift the wheat from the chaff!

And two square meals at the least!

I remain pained with how Abrahamic or non Abrahamic religions is responsible for our mess.

If they are, let us not be shy to state so in real terms!

Bash Abrahamic religions and how they are ruining the country, but give an answer and a solution!

Yet all are shy to do so!

All use the English language and dance around! Let it not be a forum to show our vast knowledge of the Indic past and little for our Indic present and future!

I say this not as a Mod, but as a poster!

Lets get back to the National Agenda and if religion is an issue, then how to ensure it can be made to work towards nation building!

brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby brihaspati » 15 Nov 2009 20:03

The fundamental problem with UCC is not just about enforcing common "social practice". There is a deep difficulty here that goes beyond this or that religion and its preferred laws. The French do not have a problem because they have simply instituted a basic principle of lawmaking - almost from the first days of Jacobin uprising, that "social laws and practice" are "socially negotiable". They do not have the problem because what they are implementing as social practice through "social negotiation" is simply derived from a set of laws shaped from Jacobin revolt and Napoleonic steamrolling.

So they can safely demand that everyone conforms to what is socially already accepted and legitimized.

The problem with implementing UCC on the principle of "social contract" comes from lack of mutual recognition of the legitimacy of any one particular value system over and above that of all others - unlike the French situation. Thus reliance on pure "social negotiation" (voting into practice a common law) can be potentially dangerous in the sense that in the future a different value system can gain majority to implement its own version of "social laws" which are radically different and retrogressive from the viewpoint of current implementation.

Thus if those who do not believe in UCC, and can source justifications from particular religions to justify cancellation of UCC, can actually reverse UCC in the future if they can gather the numbers demographically in the future. So that UCC cannot be safeguarded unless certain other religious claims are suppressed or permanently banned or made illegal.

For example, ban any ideology or religion that explicitly does not delegitimize and penalize any claims of right to enslave. Or the right to have "right hand possessions" and enjoy sexually married or unmarried captives of war. Or the right to polygamy.

It does not suffice to say that we agree not to have such rights. The religion itself has to be purged of such claims. Either they say that it was a hiostorical element and not a part of the core belief system and is anti-belief system. Or they devise a new religion that does not claim any link to the old and does not have those objectionable elements.

But do we realize that ultimately when we object to claims of right to practice certain items as a necessary part of a religion - we are actually doing it on the basis of a value-system where such elements are seen as "bad"? This ultimately comes back to recognizing a common value-system where most of the values of certain religions will appear in reversal!

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby shiv » 15 Nov 2009 20:26

brihaspati - demanding or imposing behavioral or moral standards of some kind are the hallmarks of both Islam and Christianity. The one thing that was never done in India before these religions arrived was the rigid imposition of any specific behavioral or moral standard.

In fact I would go so far as to say (as I have done before) that both Christianity and Islam were invented specifically to impose rigid moral and behavioral standards on a pre-existing pagan/kafir world that had no such rules.

Would an Indian struggle be to impose some standards or not impose them?

One way out of this mess would be to "bypass" religion and have constitutional rules. But some of those rules may end up being rules that mimic Abrahamic code while others may mimic non Arbrahamic code. (Since humans have a 5000 year or longer history during which all sorts of rules have been tried out) All sides will have to accept that. Will non Abrahamic Indians accept a constitutionally imposed rule that mimic some aspect of Abrahamic code?

Patni
BRFite
Posts: 872
Joined: 10 Jun 2008 10:32
Location: Researching sub-humans to our west!

Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby Patni » 15 Nov 2009 20:58

My attempt at contributing to the topic with an apology if considered OT or violating rules/norms.

The Indic ethos survived the test of time cause of inbuilt flexibility that emphasis on final goal to achieve as inner enlightenment but lets the tradition and wisdom at any period of time decide day to day conduct. It has been far sighted enough to accept in principal that with shifting sand of time collective level of 'Dharmikta' in the society would change and often for worse. it also ensures that the collective wisdom and philosophical base that is imparted will ensure 'Triumph of Truth and Goodness over Falsehood and Evil' and thats why all Indic ppl. irrespective of what faith they might be following will always agree on 'Satyameva Jayate'.

Most all Indic faith including Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism etc all. does not go against that basic framework and hence co-existence and plenty of mutual improvements in each based on accepting progressive practice from other and hence true melting pot and current state of Indian society.

The challenge is or Agenda for India should be on, how to get the newer faiths into Indic land, desist from trying to change the time tested ancient fabric of the land. IMVH opinion real key is in education and poverty reduction so that every individual grow rational mindset to be judge for them self.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 29 guests