National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby samuel » 15 Nov 2009 21:34

Let me point out here that it is very easy to derail any progress here whether we use UCC as the starting point to get into the relationship of the nation-state to its constituents and the associated issue of exclusivism, or vice versa. It will take extraordinary discipline and courage to make the transition from "my way" to "our way" (relatively speaking).

UCC is not a tricky issue because there is no known example or path to it. But look here at how we construct this;
pick good from whatever source it arises from and package it into a constitution we will follow and die for. Sorry, this is just not a practical idea and saying the Army can do it provides absolutely zero enlightenment for how society can do it.

When I was growing up,I would hear things like "we need a hitler to fix india" make it "ekdum pakka" and I did think it nonsense back then, too.

We ARE in a country where individuals are free to form groups and explore their SPIRITUAL or MATERIAL growth that way. The first element of a common code is that ALL such groups must subscribe to this liberty. Liberty MUST be our NATIONAL WILL. Some would call it egalitarian -- ok. The very same ethos that ALLOWS spiritual and material freedom is likely to fight against forces and processes that are inimical to such freedom. Our civil codes must codify this into process so that there is no ambiguity. I am unsure if that is easy to do.

Imagine if a group of 100,000 people from region X of India showed up and said these are our customs, we wish to live this way. Most Indians will NOT have a problem with that -- but if this group X regards all groups as inferior then they may have an issue but are likely to debate with them to discover the truth. If group X moves past that, organizes, becomes a vocal minority, influences governance, you know the story, then there will be a problem -- X has to go.

How do we do this?

We can then come to the secondary issue of national standards, or the issue of nationalism and the role of the civil code. But we can't use these to create an ethos, we need to handshake with our ethos that we all feel is our identity, i hope!
Last edited by samuel on 15 Nov 2009 21:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby brihaspati » 15 Nov 2009 21:37

Shivji,
Will we be able to disconnect prior religious viewpoints completely from any lawmaking, even under the pretense of "constitutional" approach? The problem is that there is always social ideological continuity with the past in the minds of people who themselves are perhaps most stringent in calling for "new" "disconnected from the past" laws.

Every law is based on an assumed value system, which may or may not be stated explicitly. But it is always there - like a mother and father behind every normal, hitherto seen, human birth. It is a value-system that gives normative indicators that necessitates laws. It is also important to see that this value system is not universal even for the society. What is beyond dispute and universally accepted by the society does not need laws. There are no written laws envisaged in any formal legal system that says that "morning karma"/pratkritya has to be carried out by every citizen and any breaking of the law carries a penalty. Laws are required to impose one set of behaviour when there is likelihood of that behaviour not being followed universally.

It is this likelihood of dispute to a law, that indicates that laws are always product of a value-system observed by a subgroup of the society which dominates the society.

Once we accept the twin aspects of law - an assumed value-system, and the necessity of this being not universally accepted, we are in the critical zone. We cannot avoid the question of recognizing the value-system that we want to dominate India. Sooner or later when we try to list that value system out, we will face the contradiction between different value-systems. And since many here have put up the flexibility/opennes aspect, I would like to point out that even preserving flexibility will necessarily require regidity in ensuring such preservation.

These contradictions are always inherent in such arguments. You cannot tolerate intolerance of tolerance itself, if you really want tolerance to reign supreme as a value. Whereas such a contradiction does not arise in "intolerance" as a value. You can remain intolerant of tolerance to preserve intolerance.

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby Pulikeshi » 15 Nov 2009 21:48

harbans wrote:It has not prevented our neighbours propagating Maoism, uprooting social norms in Nepal, victimizing Tibet with little support in in 'secular' India. It has not prevented China an atheist nation, from claiming Buddhism as their own. It will be your, mine and our demise when we dissassociate our ancient heritage, culture and roots in favor of other ideologies.


Good post, well thought out!

However, how much of this is the failing of 'secular' India vs. the failure of the inclusive ideologies in India which do not realize or formulate political opposition commensurate with the external threats it faces? My point being individuals (especially intellectuals) who have become 'secular' perhaps do not understand or care, but what prevents those who care for inclusive ideologies in formulating strategy?

The head of the tree is high up in the secular clouds and the roots are rotting due to viral exclusive weeds!

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 15 Nov 2009 22:02

Shivji,
Will we be able to disconnect prior religious viewpoints completely from any lawmaking, even under the pretense of "constitutional" approach? The problem is that there is always social ideological continuity with the past in the minds of people who themselves are perhaps most stringent in calling for "new" "disconnected from the past" laws.


There is no doubt that there will be problems to pass such a law.

But then someone is to catch the bull by the horn and bell the cat.

Can't dither and let the country downslide!

If the Constitution could be changed with the Shah Bano case, which all feel was preposterous, what is the problem in getting UCC as Samuel is suggesting?

What is the value system that was applied to the Shah Bano case to encourage such demeaning of women?

Was it Indic?

Samuel,

Please don't misunderstand what I am stating.

All I am stating is that the Army is very much a part of the Indian society and if they can sink their differences, be it religion, community or caste or whatever, I am confident that given the correct guidance India as a whole, can.

Just see how Ambedkar changed a whole community to embrace Buddhism!

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 15 Nov 2009 22:15

In Indian Sub-continent Muslims grew from 10 crores in 1947 to 49 crores by now meaning 5 times, just imagive where the numbers will be by 2050.


Good point.

If something is good or they feel it is good, can you stop them to flock there?

Why complain?

Try to be good and better and stop the exodus. Philosophy and big talk will not be of any help! Action and good work will!

The so called Abrahamic religions supports financially their group. How many of us the non Abrahamics support non Abrahamic groups? We only talk! We live in a materialistic world and we want our stomach filled! Even the Muslims have realised chota parivar, sukhi parivar!

Yet, I have publicised the NRI effort to donate the Bloodclot which is a stellar contribution that one can be proud of.

Unite and not Divide!

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby Chandragupta » 15 Nov 2009 22:30

RayC wrote:No answer as yet?


I don't know what answer you're looking for, but Army is secular simply because that's engraved in its character, it has been insulated from the religious divide. It cannot be used as a model for a nation of a billion people.

If people talk about rejuvenating the indic values, I don't see how that's the problem. Any national agenda should include the rejuvenation & strengthening of the same. It is not about abrahamic v/s non-abrahamic, it's about indic v/s non-indic. Embracing other religions does not mean we disown our heritage.

The strength of India lies in its indic values. If embracing Islam & Christianity means destroying those roots, then I don't know where secularism is taking us.

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 15 Nov 2009 22:33

Chandragupta wrote:
RayC wrote:No answer as yet?


I don't know what answer you're looking for, but Army is secular simply because that's engraved in its character, it has been insulated from the religious divide. It cannot be used as a model for a nation of a billion people.

If people talk about rejuvenating the indic values, I don't see how that's the problem. Any national agenda should include the rejuvenation & strengthening of the same. It is not about abrahamic v/s non-abrahamic, it's about indic v/s non-indic. Embracing other religions does not mean we disown our heritage.

The strength of India lies in its indic values. If embracing Islam & Christianity means destroying those roots, then I don't know where secularism is taking us.


Indic values may not be the values that many other share.

Indic values, if it is to be embraced by 'others' cannot have any trace of religion so as to repel them.

Anything wrong in that?


The Indian Army that I know is steeped in Indic values, beyond the narrow confines of it being a part of a religious hand me down,.

No one can disown their own heritage. It is foolish to do so. Pakistan does it!

Yet, religion is not to be mixed!

I will be frank.

Can we say all Moslems are anti indian and every Hindu is a loyal Indian?

I have heard of Hindu spies working for Pakistan.

What have you to say to that?

Let us not tar and feather communities for their religion or not being Indic (I still am not sure what that is!)!

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby gandharva » 15 Nov 2009 22:42

Indic values, if it is to be embraced by 'others' cannot have any trace of religion so as to repel them.

Anything wrong in that?


No need for 'others' to embrace indic values. They just need to reject what is outright wrong on touch stone of "Golden Rule". You can't insist upon 'gangsterism' on the name of religion, rationalism or progress blah blah.

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 15 Nov 2009 22:45

gandharva wrote:
Indic values, if it is to be embraced by 'others' cannot have any trace of religion so as to repel them.

Anything wrong in that?


No need for 'others' to embrace indic values. They just need to reject what is outright wrong on touch stone of "Golden Rule". You can't insist upon 'gangsterism' on the name of religion, rationalism or progress blah blah.


Clearly say what you have to say.

What is this 'Golden Rule' or what is this 'gangsterism'?

How do you classify Malegaon blasts?

That was justified to some! I won't say they can be faulted, but it has damaged the image!

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby brihaspati » 15 Nov 2009 23:10

Why does anything from one particualr community, lets say the majority community of India, be repulsive as a value to other religions or faiths? Why cannot this majority community also have the freedom to say that certain other values in other religions also repels them?

Once we go down recognizing the "repulsion" claim, we can only face up to a mutual debate where each side will have to convince the other of the superiority of its values.

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 15 Nov 2009 23:12

brihaspati wrote:Why does anything from one particualr community, lets say the majority community of India, be repulsive as a value to other religions or faiths? Why cannot this majority community also have the freedom to say that certain other values in other religions also repels them?

Once we go down recognizing the "repulsion" claim, we can only face up to a mutual debate where each side will have to convince the other of the superiority of its values.



Nothing is wrong.

Imposition as the sole path and that too with pontification and hot air is what upsets!

The majority religion has survived all the assaults and will continue to do so even after we have gone. I am confident of that, It is too malleable to be decimated!

What is wrong in minority religions in the contemporary societal paradigm should be removed.

We have to progress!

I have no qualms in stating what I think is wrong! I have stated it and I will state it again, unless someone shows me light!

We must be fair and we must be upfront!

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 15 Nov 2009 23:28

I have just one question for these Indic and nationalists.

How many went and learnt at Christian schools?

If they did, why did they do so?

Why did they not go to Patshalas?

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby munna » 15 Nov 2009 23:35

RayC wrote:I have just one question for these Indic and nationalists.

How many went and learnt at Christian schools?

If they did, why did they do so?

Why did they not go to Patshalas?

I generally do not indulge in these matches but I never went to ANY convent and was only associated with Dayanand institutes.

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby SRoy » 15 Nov 2009 23:38

Between Christian schools and village patshalas (I detect a condescending tone) there are numerous good schools.

I went to KVs.

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 15 Nov 2009 23:39

munna wrote:
RayC wrote:I have just one question for these Indic and nationalists.

How many went and learnt at Christian schools?

If they did, why did they do so?

Why did they not go to Patshalas?

I generally do not indulge in these matches but I never went to ANY convent and was only associated with Dayanand institutes.


Good for you.

Sadly, those who have gone to St Stephens and such other institutions are ruling this country!

The day your lot takes over, we will have the India you want!

Been to a Patshala?

SRoy,

Nothing condescending.

My parents went to Patshala and so did my wife in Hapur and they / had/ have nothing to regret.

I am proud of them!

My children are from KVs and I have been a Chairman of four of them.

Much that I tried, they never came up to my school's standards. Lethargy.

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 15 Nov 2009 23:43

SRoy wrote:Smart people dragging in the Malegoan case need to get up to date with the case....THERE IS NO CASE ... CBI has admitted...please refer to appropriate thread.


Really?

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby munna » 15 Nov 2009 23:47

RayC wrote:Good for you.

Sadly, those who have gone to St Stephens and such other institutions are ruling this country!

The day your lot takes over, we will have the India you want!


RayC I am an Oxbridge Post Graduate and Stephenians are my munna and as far as running the country goes believe me I am far closer to it than any Stephanian. I never boast but your post is a provocative one for no reason.

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 15 Nov 2009 23:52

munna wrote:
RayC wrote:Good for you.

Sadly, those who have gone to St Stephens and such other institutions are ruling this country!

The day your lot takes over, we will have the India you want!


RayC I am a Oxbridge Post Graduate and Stephenians are my munna and
as far as running the country goes believe me I am far closer to it than any Stephanian
. I never boast but your post is a provocative for no reason.


I did not have the option to get an Oxbridge education since I was keener to serve the country as my father did. Family tradition. My brother and others have Ivy League and fancy affiliations both in the UK and US to Cambridge and Oxfiord. My uncle is an OBE.

You are an OBE?

Tell me what is so great?

By distant connection there is a Nobel Laureate that I can boast about. But that does not make me great.

I will be what I am.

It is what I am and not what is my lineage!

If you are running the country, you better wake up and do it right!

Koda is a tip on the iceburg. Got that, chum?

The way this country is being run is hardly anything to boast about!

Therefore, you not boasting is not surprising!

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby munna » 16 Nov 2009 00:04

RayC wrote:I did not have the option to get an Oxbridge education since I was keener to serve the country as my father did. Family tradition. My brother and others have Ivy League and fancy affliciations both in te UK and US.


I do not want to debate your family kudos to them, you doubted my credentials and when confronted with "Baap of St Stephen's" as my institution you do a tactical retreat. FYI my University has produced 3 PMs of India, one is in waiting :wink: and countless other personalities who affected the course of free India and I got there on the basis of my "Pathshala". As far as serving country goes I am currently doing it and will continue to do till my last breath just that I do not want to trumpet it.

My uncle is an OBE.

You are an OBE?

Tell me what is so great?


I aspire for Bharat Ratna.In simple words nothing is great just that Oxbridge>>>St Stephen's nothing more nothing less.
Last edited by munna on 16 Nov 2009 00:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby Muppalla » 16 Nov 2009 00:04

Why in the world this thread has to deteriorate into something else from the topic? What happend to our structured way of discussing the topics? Is it like a end of the year thingy going on here?

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby Patni » 16 Nov 2009 00:05

With all due respect what is the relevance to who went to what school with the Thread Topic? We are all suppose to bat for the same team India!

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 16 Nov 2009 00:15

munna wrote:
Muppalla wrote:Why in the world this thread has to deteriorate into something else from the topic? What happend to our structured way of discussing the topics? Is it like a end of the year thingy going on here?

Looks like it but a mod doing such things is really amazing!


I have categorically stated I am a poster and not a Mod in this thread.

English is a foreign language to you!

Or is you have not better defence, attack?

I would have called you a clot, but won't, since I am a poster and not a Mod here!

Got that old bean?

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby samuel » 16 Nov 2009 00:22

Since everybody here is a postor or poster, CEASE FIRE!

What happened?

We are unable to code equality for all under law, preferential treatment to none, supreme intolerance to intolerance, tolerance to all paths as UCC #1?

Why?

S

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby Muppalla » 16 Nov 2009 00:23

A request:

This topic started of very well. Could we discuss "National Agenda for India, 2010-2050" by freezing the discussions related to religion, Hindutva, Indic or even Abrahamic Vs. Non-Abrahamic etc.

Let us not even try to get into who started first. How about quitely getting back to topic?

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby brihaspati » 16 Nov 2009 00:45

The reason I insisted on bringing up the value-system question behind UCC comes up in all situtaions relevant. For example, consider the question of "polygamy". Forget demographic multiplication/explosion debate. What about equal rights of both genders as regards forming gender partnerships? Once we accept that both genders have equal rights in choosing the mode of their partnerships, is that sufficient to say that polygamy is illegal?

Not really, for a devout Muslim woman may actually accept the unequal rights because of what her faith instructs. So we need more values to give unambiguous decisions. Just giving the choice of exercising rights may not actually ensure that people will be in an ideological position to exercise such rights.

Strictly speaking, just equal rights to choose modes of partnerships simply gives the right to both males and females to have officially recognized multiple partners in heterosexual relationships (or even homosexual!), and even in relationships that we would consider abusive by existing values (like slavery or BDSM). But it does not guarantee that one sided exercise of these rights will not continue based on religious claims.

Only if you add axiomatically the principle of "monogamy" at any given time point (which allows serial monogamy) over and above that of equal rights and free choice can you ban polygamy. It can still ofcourse carry on as voluntary association between consenting adults - because "free choice and equal rights" has already been accepted.

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby brihaspati » 16 Nov 2009 00:52

This (polygamy) came up because it would be one of the issues of debate in homogenizing religious perceptions that guide current separate civil laws. If UCC has to become part of a national agenda we need to justify why and how it should benefit us - and where it will run into difficulties.

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby Manish_Sharma » 16 Nov 2009 00:55

{quotes deleted}

Brihaspatiji the first point of expansion is very interesting and rarely heard in Indian context. Don't know if anybody other then Cholas especially Raj Raja did it. What do you mean by expansion here? Is it reclaiming the lands gone in TSP like Kashmir, part of Himalaya taken by Chinese. Would be great if you could explain this a bit more. And also do you mean "agenda of expansion" will create more crystallization/nationalism or ekta amongst people?

Second part is clear about scrapping of Article 370 and its equivalents in NE. But what is not clear is how it will help on expansion issues.

As you mentioned another 33 percent young voters will be ready in 15 years I think making few blockbuster movies on this issue will be fastest eyeopener for these kids, as the books etc. may not be so popular in coming times.
Last edited by enqyoob on 25 Dec 2009 06:57, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: post quotes deleted

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 16 Nov 2009 00:55

UCC is a call of the times.

No debate.

Act.

If secularism is our birthright and CREDO!

Like the Shah Bano case! If that could done so can UCC be done!

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby brihaspati » 16 Nov 2009 01:01

Utily of UCC for a National Agenda, primarily lies in the contribution it makes towards unification and homogenization of identities. Any subidentity we recognize legally is a source of manipulation by ambitious elite to carve out power niches for their own benefit. Any subidentity other than necessary bilogical ones, like minor children, relevant gender differences and senior citizens, or with "special needs" - other than these, rashtra should not reconize any claims of immunity and special rights or treatment.

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 16 Nov 2009 01:04

UCC is essential if this country is 'secular'.

If some people are not keen, they can go elsewhere.

The country come first always and everytime!

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby brihaspati » 16 Nov 2009 01:23

Manish_Sharma wrote
Brihaspatiji the first point of expansion is very interesting and rarely heard in Indian context. Don't know if anybody other then Cholas especially Raj Raja did it. What do you mean by expansion here? Is it reclaiming the lands gone in TSP like Kashmir, part of Himalaya taken by Chinese. Would be great if you could explain this a bit more. And also do you mean "agenda of expansion" will create more crystallization/nationalism or ekta amongst people?

Yes I mean, in the first phase reclaiming the entire subcontinent as well as areas that were traditionally "culturally" with India further afield. Agenda of expansion drives preparation society wide. It involves intense efforts at becoming self-sufficient militarily and therefore in technological aspects that drive other aspects of the economy. It gives a nation purpose in which it can feel pride in. It necessarily requires adjustments and giving up fractures in identities and giving up claims of exclusivity.

Second part is clear about scrapping of Article 370 and its equivalents in NE. But what is not clear is how it will help on expansion issues.

In fact initially it will intensify problems. But once we refuse to back down and remove special treatment clauses, we stop recognizing and reconfirming exclusivity claims. We want them equal participants - and we will not allow themselves to be used against us by external agents. I believe that family has every right to thrash, or refuse to give in to infantile tantrums, of its own members. The more dearly you love them, the harder you can become to set them on the right path - so that over the long term not only they, but the family and neighbours also benefit.

As you mentioned another 33 percent young voters will be ready in 15 years I think making few blockbuster movies on this issue will be fastest eyeopener for these kids, as the books etc. may not be so popular in coming times.


Yes, please do suggest methods. I am halfway through my life. Younger generations can expand on what I say. :)

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby Jaspreet » 16 Nov 2009 05:07

I have only started reading this thread recently and haven't read all the posts. So please ignore my suggestion if someone else has already made them.

My suggestion for an item to include in the National agenda is inculcating civic sense and discipline in Indians.

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby shiv » 16 Nov 2009 10:24

Just a suggestion.

When we look at detailed roadmaps to the future we come across too many problems and too many solutions each claiming priority over the rest.

I think it is important to prioritize based on urgency, but urgency needs to be defined and we need to agree what is urgent.

For example, I might say that making sure that several thousand women do not die at childbirth this year leaving tens of thousands of children motherless is urgent.

Another person might say "Preventing the conversion of several thousand people to Christianity" is more urgent.

My view is that protecting the physical safety and health of the women and children of India is more urgent in absolute terms than preventing conversion.

There is a third route. Protecting the physical well being of women and children and conversion are unconnected. We can agree that the former can be done without confusing it with the conversion issue. In other words we often get into a torn shirt-open fly situation in these discussions by taking too large a bite of issues to discuss. Whether you are a supporter or opponent of conversions, you can certainly unite with others to save women and children.

The deeper you go into social and religious issues the more contentious things become. There is an ongoing discussion about Indians shitting in public in the China thread. If you really start splitting hairs you find that the world, even the world of freedom and compassion speaks with a forked tongue. After all the right to food and the right to education are placed high up on the priority list and everyone seems to agree whether they are opponents or supporters of conversion.

But what about the right to shit? Shitting and peeing are like breathing. They are essential activities. You cannot stop them. In a country whose people have always done this in the open, what is the urgency and need for suddenly and rapidly making it private and hidden? More to the point, exactly what is the problem about shitting or peeing in the open? And stemming from the answer to that will arise the priority for shitting or not shitting in a particular place. I can write in detail about this but shitting in public becomes a public health hazard only under certain circumstances. In other circumstances it is more of a nuisance or an embarrassment. Public shitting is less of a priority that ensuring clean drinking water and making sure that people are not shitting in drinking water sources. And stopping pollution of drinking water sources in industrialized urban environments is more urgent that public shitting. Stopping the immersion of Ganesh idols painted with lead based paints in urban water bodies is more urgent today that stopping public shitting as long as people are not shitting into the water supply. Water can be purified to remove micro organisms, but it cannot be de-leaded, and lead collects in plants and animals.

As India develops we have more educated women and more working women. These women need to go to work and return home safely. Many women today, like men have done for ages, live far away from their families and under the circumstances they develop relationships - perhaps a friendship that tides them over loneliness and may lead to marriage. What we need urgently is to ensure safety and security for these people so that they can be useful and happy citizens, and not attack them because they are seen together on Feb 14th or demand that they should change religion before marriage or show a marriage certificate before being seen together. To me the priorities are clear. But the priorities are not clear to many Indians.

I can go on about priorities - but you see that at each step you are treading on some religion or the other. Look at urgent priorities first.

Pranav
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby Pranav » 16 Nov 2009 10:32

Second that - too many people throwing garbage on the streets, no adequate systems for cleanliness, sewage, sanitation etc. Very poor public transport (although that may be slowly changing with the introduction of Metro and BRTS systems).

Jaspreet wrote:I have only started reading this thread recently and haven't read all the posts. So please ignore my suggestion if someone else has already made them.

My suggestion for an item to include in the National agenda is inculcating civic sense and discipline in Indians.

shiv
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby shiv » 16 Nov 2009 10:40

Pranav wrote:Second that - too many people throwing garbage on the streets, no adequate systems for cleanliness, sewage, sanitation etc.

Jaspreet wrote:I have only started reading this thread recently and haven't read all the posts. So please ignore my suggestion if someone else has already made them.

My suggestion for an item to include in the National agenda is inculcating civic sense and discipline in Indians.



There is a social factor here in the sense that a large number of Indians will deliberately not clean garbage or feces because their social status is too high for that. It may not be the old "caste/commi\unity" problem but that has been replaced by a new dynamic because it is "dirty and demeaning" to be cleaning up toilets/drains/streets. AIIMS students agitating against reservation inadvertently showed this mindset when they swept streets to show how low they were forced to go. Street sweeping is "low" stuff - not for me, not for you. For somebody else.

One solution IMO is to raise salaries of sweepers, But Indians do not believe sweeping/cleaning is "high enough" to deserve a high salary. Sushruta invented several advanced plastic surgery procedures - but surgery declined in India because surgeons (who dealt with blood) were often classified as the lowest of the low and were not paid well enough to make surgery a desirable profession.

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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 16 Nov 2009 10:59

Shiv,

Though OT, I thought this may interest you.

Look before you leak
- Urinate in the open and save the planet, the British way

Telegraph

wig
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby wig » 16 Nov 2009 11:17

wishlist for the next fourty or so years;
a) literacy and education for all youngsters. state of the art schools with laboratories, internet access, free books, notbooks and yes lavatories which work; should be sited in cities, towns, villages, wherever. Pay students the minimum wage if they attend school and cash bonus if they do well. families really need to have children working just to make ends meet. encourage corporates to open schools.
the present legal fiction that an educational institution is not for profit is a farce. It needs to be done away with. let the educational institution make profits and let everybody open institutes. so that the pupil can have choice. it is painful to see students spend good money to study medicne in china, or wherever. we should have more medical colleges and specialist (MD; MS) education avenues here.
also ensure that the teachers are provided liveable accomodation near the schools. teachers have to travel long distances and so they work out some kind of pooling resulting in one or the other teacher enjoying a day off.
b) food security for the family. NREGA is a good scheme. the failures in implementation need to be plugged. if one child is being paid to go to school the median income of poor familes will improve dramatically.
c) health facilites in rural areas. the population has to have access to health facilites which are close by. if good medical facilites are sited and medical staff is available we should be able to curtail the burgeoning population as folks are aware of the virtues of family planning.
d) ensure that the legal framework is redrafted. orders by executive authority that end in appeals need to be suitably penalised. the same goes for the judiciary. we cannot afford appeals and appeals. something is wrong in the basic order if it is being appealed repeatedly.
e) make sure that all legislators sit for an annual examination. the questions will be asked on the enactments passed by the legislature in the preceding session of the legislature. The question paper and answer sheet will be a public document accessible to all. Those scoring below 100% will be recalled and salaries paid to legislators who flunk the test will be recovered. ( i write this because we have a plethora of laws. the legal system works on the premise that ignorance of law is no excuse or in other words a crime) we need to test the legislators on their level of knowledge on the laws they enact.

RayC
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 16 Nov 2009 11:18

Emancipation of women is indeed an important issue.

However, women today are no longer the meek ones that they were in earlier times. They are working and are equal shareholders in the family stake. This is not only in urban areas but also in rural area. It is an encouraging sign.

Where we lack is education and medicare. Quality education is getting expensive by the day and medicare is getting beyond the common man's reach while the govt hospitals (at least in Bengal) is pathetic in medical facilities as also in ward occupancy and cleanliness.

Actually, it is very difficult to state what is urgent and what could be considered later.

It is my view that unless the base mass of the population is educated, the citizens will not realise their social and national responsibilities. And if they don't, then they will not be equipped to deliver towards the progress of the Nation.

With the climate change, the agriculture pattern is also at risk. There is always the possibility of a food security problem. Yet, one must also remember that while the production may not that worrisome, the storage is as is the PDS. The colossal waste of perishable is a an area of concern. Food preservation is an issue that requires attention.

Indian waters are trawled by foreign countries. It is time to ensure that the resources of the sea bordering our nation are put to good use for our Nation and foreign countries discouraged.

Better medical facilities should be organised and more hospitals be created to cater to the poor, both in the urban as also in the rural areas. Unless one has a healthy population, one cannot give the optimum!

wig
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby wig » 16 Nov 2009 11:39

women's rights are of vital interest. in the nation's march thaey have to be safeguarded.
for example, in J&K if a women who is a state subject marries a non state subject she loses the right to property. now spare a thought for the women and children if for some reason she loses her husband, opr toherwise wishes to settle in J&K. most women are even now not breadwinners. if she returns her parents home for sustenance and security, her children suffer. she and the offspring are denied opportunities in education, scholarships and government jobs.
however the laws are lopsided towards men. eg Dr. Farooq Abdullah a former CM is married to a non state subject woman, His son the current Chief Minister Omar Abdullah would be disqualified if the law were to applied in an even handed manner to males and females.
to conclude, i am aware of only this anomalous situation in J&K; probably more shuch inconguities and disparities in laws that apply to men and women exist. these laws work against the rights of women of all religions and backgrounds. I would like such laws to be consigned to the dustbin.

RayC
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Re: National Agenda for India, 2010-2050

Postby RayC » 16 Nov 2009 11:57

True.

The laws require a re-look!


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