C-17s for the IAF?

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby GeorgeWelch » 10 Jan 2010 23:05

Gilles wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:So your concern isn't for the Indians, it for the next unfortunate simpleton who has a spare $billion laying around

If the Indians weren't hoodwinked, why do you assume the next would be


My concern is for the Indians. I wrote that those in charge of buying the things for India were aware. I wasn't referring to the people of India, who are the ones who are paying for them.


So now instead of claiming that the Indian procurement officials are fools, you're claiming that they're corrupt, working against Indian interests :roll:

You realize that is in fact a more serious charge.

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby rajeshks » 10 Jan 2010 23:54

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Gilles wrote:
So now instead of claiming that the Indian procurement officials are fools, you're claiming that they're corrupt, working against Indian interests :roll:

You realize that is in fact a more serious charge.


Not just the officials but the politicians too, as in the case of most countries in the world. also we dont use funny words like 'lobbying', we simply call it corruption ... but sometimes its necessary to embrace the devil... in this case we dont know which one is the case.

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby ashdivay » 11 Jan 2010 03:37

first P-8s now C-17 whats next M1 Abrams and M2 Bradley's ? what after that ? US military base on Indian soil ? if that ever happens i am moving to CHINA or Mars(If available Mars will be my first choice).

I always wanted to see India and USA as equal friends but the way things are going its gonna be US masters and Indian servants. We will be just like UK , Australia and all the other American chumchas.

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby svinayak » 11 Jan 2010 03:45

ashdivay wrote:first P-8s now C-17 whats next M1 Abrams and M2 Bradley's ? what after that ? US military base on Indian soil ? if that ever happens i am moving to CHINA or Mars(If available Mars will be my first choice).

Irony is With all these, some Indians in India criticize NRIs as being sold out

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby Gagan » 11 Jan 2010 05:04

Mods is it time to remove the " :?: " from the topic of this thread?

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby Gilles » 11 Jan 2010 07:20

GeorgeWelch wrote:So now instead of claiming that the Indian procurement officials are fools, you're claiming that they're corrupt, working against Indian interests :roll:

You realize that is in fact a more serious charge.


Trying to cower me away from what I wrote ?

"Corrupt" insinuates taking money under the table or accepting a future job at Boeing in exchange for having India buy Boeing. I have no such proof although its documented that Boeing has used such tactics in the very United States with Pentagon officials, lost contracts because of it, paid heavy fines because of it, had to fire people because of it. Have they since changed their ways ?

Would they shy away from using their old ways with Indian officials ?

I however have no information that would lead me to infer such a thing about India and Indian officials.

In the case of Canada, our officials lied to our Parliament and lied to the Canadian people about the C-17, to justify its purchase. I don't claim they took money under the table, but they lied. So its not corruption. But why lie? Because they would not have been able to justify that purchase with the whole truth.

There were several reasons for the lies. Each group had their own agenda. The Air Force wanted the shiny modern toy they could be proud to fly. They think their US counterparts laugh at them for their old equipment. They fail to see the US flying 1960s era B-52s and KC-135s. They just compare their old stuff to the F-22s.
National Defence HQ people like whatever makes them more "inter-operable with US Forces, because they think Canada's military is some sort of sub-arm of the US Armed Forces and they like being subservient to them. The are most offended when the Pentagon does not let them go along a foreign bombing mission because our Fighters aren't modern enough, "Upgrade your fighters and maybe next time, we'll let you come along and drop a few bombs", they were told.
Our Prime Minister wanted to suck up to Washington. He is a Red Neck, Yankee wantobe.

They all had a reason for seeing this purchase through and to hand over billions of dollars of Taxpayer money to the Americans.

What reasons India may have for suddenly spending so much on US military Hardware, or should I say on Boeing Military Hardware ? I'll leave that to Indians.
Last edited by Gilles on 11 Jan 2010 08:56, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby SaiK » 11 Jan 2010 08:50

Military support systems and defensive systems are for support and strategic force multipliers uses. Mostly are not for offensive ops. This is where khan crafts may not play much role in India.. where it can chew our b@lls right at the point when we plan an offensive say against pakibans.

If MRCA goes to the khans, then I should see many a ashdivays happening.

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby svinayak » 11 Jan 2010 21:11

Gilles wrote:
National Defence HQ people like whatever makes them more "inter-operable with US Forces, because they think Canada's military is some sort of sub-arm of the US Armed Forces and they like being subservient to them. The are most offended when the Pentagon does not let them go along a foreign bombing mission because our Fighters aren't modern enough, "Upgrade your fighters and maybe next time, we'll let you come along and drop a few bombs", they were told.
What reasons India may have for suddenly spending so much on US military Hardware, or should I say on Boeing Military Hardware ? I'll leave that to Indians.

It may be the same reason for which Canadian Defence want to have the C17 - interoperability.

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby GeorgeWelch » 11 Jan 2010 23:47

Gilles wrote:What reasons India may have for suddenly spending so much on US military Hardware, or should I say on Boeing Military Hardware ? I'll leave that to Indians.


So now the Indians have suddenly come down with a severe case of 'Yanqui Envy'

:rotfl:

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby Surya » 12 Jan 2010 07:02


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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby arun » 12 Jan 2010 07:11

Gilles wrote:What reasons India may have for suddenly spending so much on US military Hardware, or should I say on Boeing Military Hardware ? I'll leave that to Indians.


Perhaps it is the TINA factor at play when looking at available new build military transport aircraft.

In the weight class, and I am erring on the side of genorisity here, IL 76/78 production IIRC has ground to a halt with the aircraft building factory landing up in one of the "Stan's" while the A400M is facing all kinds of funding issues. The offerings by Alenia and Casa are much smaller as is the MRTA which is also some years away.

That leaves Boeing an open field.

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby Tanaji » 12 Jan 2010 20:44

There doesnt seem to be another alternative

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8452493.stm

A400M may be cancelled.

Unlikely but delays and cost increases likely.

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby Gilles » 12 Jan 2010 22:10

Tanaji wrote:There doesnt seem to be another alternative

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8452493.stm

A400M may be cancelled.

Unlikely but delays and cost increases likely.


You post seems to dismiss the fact that the Indian Air Force took delivery of a brand new Il-76-based A-50 in May 2009, just a few months ago, and that others are already on order.

In June 2009, Ilyushin delivered a brand new IL-76 to Silk Way Airlines.

These are completed with airframes built in the nineties, but are still zero time airframes. My understanding is that there are still a few of them before they run out.

So, for the time being, there is an alternative. It might be less desirable, smaller, carry less payload, but its there to be had.

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby Katare » 12 Jan 2010 22:27

Gilles,

IAF would know more about IL76 airframes in storage in Russia and their actual condition than us enthusiasts. If they think its end of road for IL 76 than I would believe it is an informed decision. I can see IAF or Silk way buying a couple of IL-76 aircrafts as stop gap measure but I do not think IAF will plan next 40-50 years based on certain fixed numbers of stored 1980 airframes in a foreign country.

I think 10 C17 is just the beginning, IAF would standardize on C17over next two decades with dozens of these plane on its inventory as IL76 fades into retirement. India has no plans to develop/make a military transport aircraft of this size (50-70 tons) neither is any other country in the west or east as for as I know. C17 seems like the only option that is available to IAF……..

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby Aditya G » 12 Jan 2010 22:31

I hope the Chinook sale also happens soon. C-130 and CH-47 Chinook are proven aircraft in operations the world over, in all environments. I cannot say that for the C-17 as well, but I am glad that we are getting that capability now, rather than pussyfoot for 10 years without any acquisition. As long as the end-users i.e. the IAF get a machine more capable than IL-76 variants we should be satisfied, and frankly I dont think budget is a problem for India given that we rarely ever spend the allocated budget in any case.

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby tejas » 12 Jan 2010 22:41

Wow, so this is it. It's the C-17 at a quarter of a billion dollars a pop ( an obscene price) or nothing. And if we even give a future POTUS a look he doesn't like, poof! theres no Indian transport fleet other than a few aircraft that can fly with cannibalized parts.

But what can we expect from a superpower whose OFBs can't make their own heavy machine gun or 155 mm artilery
( at least these we can import from Bulgaria or Singapore). :evil:

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby Lisa » 13 Jan 2010 03:31


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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby shiv » 13 Jan 2010 07:48

Well - there's always the conspiracy theory to push..

If India gives the US a lot of sweeteners in the form of helo and transport aircraft purchases the US can hardly complain when India settles for a non US aircraft in the MRCA deal. No?

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby Philip » 13 Jan 2010 17:43

Shiv is spot on.Least critical contracts awarded to least dependable countries and suppliers.

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby tejas » 13 Jan 2010 19:48

I do not understand the concern wrt pissing off the US if the MMRCA contract doesn't go their way. The BO admin. has been no friend to India. This contract should purposely not go to the US. I for one would not buy anything from them as long as they contend Harpoon missile gifts to Pukistan are required to fight the Taliban.

I cannot believe the US will ever be as generous as Russia or even the Europeans in tech. transfer. We aren't begging for these weapons we are paying hard earned cash. Why reward people who spit in your face? If we have to buy some weapon systems from Umrikah, they should be as non-critical as possible.

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby Bheem » 13 Jan 2010 21:41

A400 which is smaller than C-17s seems to be going towards US$ 300-400 million a pop. Il-76 using the estimate of recent cancelled tanker bid seems to be in the range of US$ 170 a pop. So s C-17 which is way bigger than both of them seems ok at US$ 220million a pop. Russians can be sweetened with a contract for upgrade of IL-76s with new engines, avionics and mid life refit.

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby Vinito » 18 Jan 2010 17:15

Bheem wrote:A400 which is smaller than C-17s seems to be going towards US$ 300-400 million a pop. Il-76 using the estimate of recent cancelled tanker bid seems to be in the range of US$ 170 a pop. So s C-17 which is way bigger than both of them seems ok at US$ 220million a pop. Russians can be sweetened with a contract for upgrade of IL-76s with new engines, avionics and mid life refit.


If the GOI is looking at a heavy lift capability which needs to more than the IL-76/78 can provide would it not be feasible to also include the An-70 or An-124 in this competition. I am quite positive that even they would be cheaper and equally capable than the C-17 that we are looking at now. In the end it may turn out that the C-17 was a good deal after all but it never hurts to have a competition to check the performance of the other candidates as well.

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby gogna » 18 Jan 2010 23:41

JANUARY 18, 2010
Boeing Gets Initial India Request For 6 Refueling Planes

NEW DELHI (Dow Jones)--Boeing Co. (BA) said Monday it has received initial requests for information from India's federal government for supplying six refueling tankers, in what is likely to further expand the U.S. aircraft maker's presence in this burgeoning market for defense equipment.

"We will do a detailed evaluation of the request for interest from the Indian government, study our inventory, and accordingly inform the government," Vivek Lall, vice president and country head of defense and space and security at Boeing India, told reporters.

Lall didn't elaborate on the potential value of the contract.

"We will have to study what we can supply and then only we can talk about the value of the order.

Earlier this month, Boeing said that the U.S. government has received a letter of request from India's defense ministry and the Indian Air Force on the potential acquisition of 10 C-17 Globemaster III advanced airlifters.

India, one of the world's top importers of arms, wants to buy the new airlifters to modernize its fleet of Russian-built AN-32 and IL-76 airlifters.

The country is also in the process of acquiring 126 combat planes for an estimated $10 billion.

Boeing is among six companies, including Lockheed Martin Corp. and Dassault Aviation SA, who are vying for the contract--billed as the biggest fighter jet deal since the 1990s.

Boeing has estimated that it could bid for potential defense deals in India worth about $31 billion between 2009 and 2019.

"This number is going to grow as India tries to protect its borders," said Dinesh Keskar, president of Boeing India. "Our estimates are for segments which we can address such as fighter and attack aircrafts, heavy lift cargo aircrafts, missiles, airborne early warning and training systems."

New Plane Repair Center, 787 Dreamliner Delivery

Boeing Co. will start building a $100 million aircraft maintenance, repair and overhaul center in a joint venture with state-run carrier, Air India, this year, Keskar said.

"We had deferred the construction of the MRO (center) since delivery of the 787 was being deferred," Keskar said. "Now, we are on track to deliver the first 787 Dreamliner to Air India by the second quarter of 2011."

The Dreamliners were originally scheduled to be delivered in late 2009. Air India has ordered 27 of the twin-aisle, long-haul aircraft.

Keskar said the MRO center, being built in the western Indian city of Nagpur, will primarily service Air India's fleet of 787 and 777 planes.

Keskar said Boeing will take about two to two-and-a-half years to build the repair center. "When Air India gets the plane (787), it won't require maintenance for at least two years, so we are talking about 2013 (when the center will be operational)."
"


posting in full subscription content

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby nachiket » 19 Jan 2010 04:17

^^ Please post this in the Indian Military Aviation Thread.

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby Philip » 20 Jan 2010 13:05

The reason for the sudden GOI love for the C-17 has been revealed in some media reports which state that the production of this aircraft will shortly cease unless there are more orders! It is also no coincidence that production of the F-18SH will cease in 2011 and also that of the F-16.These production lines are desperate for new orders as as far as the fighters are concerned,almost every US ally has them in service and don't want any more.So sucker India is being armtwisted to save the US aircraft industry by buying what Adm.Arun Prakash called "sunset" aircraft (F-16/F-18SH).

The British elections will be upon ius very soon and only a miracle will see Gordon Brown remain in office.His successor,David Cameron and the Tories plan to downsize certain parts of the UK's defence ,with new priorities.One stated cutback will be for C-17 transports.The manufacturers are desperately trying to get the US Congress to buy 3-7 new C-17s to keep the line open.As some members have stated,the better bet would be for buying more upgraded IL-76s which Russia is developing/ building or if we truly need the massive heavylift capability,the AN-124 which as this report says,is "wowing" the Sydney crowd,delivering an NH_90 ASW helo in the bargain.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/photoga ... tedImage=2

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby Amit J » 20 Jan 2010 14:28

Philip wrote:The reason for the sudden GOI love for the C-17 has been revealed in some media reports which state that the production of this aircraft will shortly cease unless there are more orders! It is also no coincidence that production of the F-18SH will cease in 2011 and also that of the F-16.These production lines are desperate for new orders as as far as the fighters are concerned,almost every US ally has them in service and don't want any more.So sucker India is being armtwisted to save the US aircraft industry by buying what Adm.Arun Prakash called "sunset" aircraft (F-16/F-18SH).

The British elections will be upon ius very soon and only a miracle will see Gordon Brown remain in office.His successor,David Cameron and the Tories plan to downsize certain parts of the UK's defence ,with new priorities.One stated cutback will be for C-17 transports.The manufacturers are desperately trying to get the US Congress to buy 3-7 new C-17s to keep the line open.As some members have stated,the better bet would be for buying more upgraded IL-76s which Russia is developing/ building or if we truly need the massive heavylift capability,the AN-124 which as this report says,is "wowing" the Sydney crowd,delivering an NH_90 ASW helo in the bargain.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/photoga ... tedImage=2


I say irrespective of the fact that the production lines are going to close down or otherwise, the only aspect that is important is if the aircraft is going to be releavant in its life span and remains contemporary and is the best choice amongst available options. The problem with the production lines closing down would be for ordering of future additional numbers and spares. This is solved by domestic productions which the MMRCA is expected to have. The SHornet isnt that old and a Block 60 F-16 would represent a very mature and advanced platform. As far as AN-124 is concerned although it represents a larger volume of cargo transporting capability the C-17s can operate from shorter runways. I feel there could be a mix of larger number of more economical Russian air lifters and some small number of costlier American/NATO models as both represent similar but yet different capabilities

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby geeth » 20 Jan 2010 14:43

>>>I say irrespective of the fact that the production lines are going to close down or otherwise, the only aspect that is important is if the aircraft is going to be releavant in its life span and remains contemporary and is the best choice amongst available options. The problem with the production lines closing down would be for ordering of future additional numbers and spares.

What if it becomes another white elephant in stock after a few years, and is stockpiled like the spent fuel at Tarapur, at the end of some obscure runway?

Ha! India is a large country and few billions here and there doesn't really matter ..particularly to those at the helm of affiars..is it so?

I agree, there are limited options, but then, relying on a known trouble maker should hardly be the option to be followed enthusiastically.

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby nrshah » 20 Jan 2010 15:35

Philip,

I agree to your views regarding both C 17 and teen fighters

I have posted similar views on C 17 in another thread where i showed both C 17 and Il 76 are mostly comparable except that diameter of former is bigger and hence able to haul an Arjun MBT. But again lifting MBT thru Air is very costly and may be prohibitive. And why should we invest 2.5 / 3 times higher amount to purchase C 17 just to haul 10 Arjun MBT at a time. All others task can be well executed by IL 76. Again, even AN 124 is cheaper than C 17 besides giving some real punch in our air lifting capability. In 2.2 Bn USD we are planning to purchase 10 C 17, we can go for a combination of IL 76 and AN 124 and still get more than 20 strategic lifters.

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby Amit J » 20 Jan 2010 16:03

geeth wrote:>>>

What if it becomes another white elephant in stock after a few years, and is stockpiled like the spent fuel at Tarapur, at the end of some obscure runway?

Ha! India is a large country and few billions here and there doesn't really matter ..particularly to those at the helm of affiars..is it so?

I agree, there are limited options, but then, relying on a known trouble maker should hardly be the option to be followed enthusiastically.


With the C-17s they are as you understand quite unique in the capabilities it has to offer as compared to other options and will be good addition to the IAF. I sincerely doubt it would become white elephants as the IAF is quite professional in its Maint capabilities. It is ok to be apprehensive but it is also better to have multiple options. As far as cost is concerned the idea would be to buy less number of costlier aircraft and have a larger fleet of slighly lesser capable aircraft but which is much more economical. Besides which i doubt the C-17s are replacing any aircraft but rather adding to the lift capabilities of the IAF

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby Philip » 20 Jan 2010 18:58

The Gates visit is very significant.Read the report in another thread (US).Gates is pushing hard for India to sign on the dotted line for both the logistics and communications agreements,which are controversial in the country.E have already been armtwisted into signing the EUM monitoring agreement.If these two agreements are signed during the current Cong. govt.,in the future the US will be able to effectively use any Indian military asset by virute of commonality with similar eqpt. used by US forces-in other words total integration.This is what the US's grand strategy is,to make India become another US satellite like Oz,Pak,Japan,SoKo,etc.The US can then base their C-17s even in India,or use Indian C-17s,and the entire caboodle of spares and eqpt. on F-18Shs,etc.,etc.India really has no need for the C-17,as it has no global policeman's responsibility but the US does! So what the US is effectively doing is getting India to bear the costs for it to use later on.Clever indeed.We've just been told about Boeing tankers too when we have very capable Russian IL-78s.The Fin.Min has also clashed with the MOD regarding their decision to opt for French tankers,hence Boeing's entry where a willing MMS govt. of the day is ready to "love" Uncle Obama as it did Dubya Bush.

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby V_Raman » 02 Feb 2010 10:44

recent news item about C-17 on msnbc

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp ... 1#35189121

looks like india might get its C-17 pretty fast!

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby VijayKumarSinha » 02 Feb 2010 11:05

V_Raman wrote:recent news item about C-17 on msnbc

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp ... 1#35189121

looks like india might get its C-17 pretty fast!


The most interesting thing in that video was the cost of 10 C-17's at 2.5 billion dollars.
I am hoping that when we buy them and pay that price that would also include all the spares and support that we would need?

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby Gilles » 08 Feb 2010 07:22

More unwanted C-17s are being shoved down the throat of the Pentagon. Imagine what kind of "buy" pressure countries who need or depend on the US are under. After the UK, Canada, Australia and NATO, even Qatar and the UAE bought some. India is next.......but probably not last. Saudi Arabia will buy some....Israel may have to get a few as a condition for getting F-22s or Patriot Missiles, Japan, Korea........

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby Gilles » 08 Feb 2010 07:24

VijayKumarSinha wrote:The most interesting thing in that video was the cost of 10 C-17's at 2.5 billion dollars.
I am hoping that when we buy them and pay that price that would also include all the spares and support that we would need?


That price is the aircraft only.

To include spares, training, infrastructure and maintenance contracts, Canada spent 3.4 Billion for 4 aircraft. Do the math.........

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby Dmurphy » 08 Feb 2010 09:09

Gilles wrote:
VijayKumarSinha wrote:The most interesting thing in that video was the cost of 10 C-17's at 2.5 billion dollars.
I am hoping that when we buy them and pay that price that would also include all the spares and support that we would need?


That price is the aircraft only.

To include spares, training, infrastructure and maintenance contracts, Canada spent 3.4 Billion for 4 aircraft. Do the math.........

3.4 billion for 4 aircrafts? Our PHALCON AWACS are cheaper!

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby David Saenz » 08 Feb 2010 09:13

Gilles wrote:
VijayKumarSinha wrote:The most interesting thing in that video was the cost of 10 C-17's at 2.5 billion dollars.
I am hoping that when we buy them and pay that price that would also include all the spares and support that we would need?


That price is the aircraft only.

To include spares, training, infrastructure and maintenance contracts, Canada spent 3.4 Billion for 4 aircraft. Do the math.........

Well, a whopping 8.5 billion dollars :eek: . The single largest defence deal ever till now.
This surely sounds a good bye to the elder teen. :mrgreen:


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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby Brando » 22 Feb 2010 02:21

Despite 15 pages of number and links etc on this thread, the central question has still not been answered!

Is the IAF getting C17s ?

So far there is no news as to this at all beyond the initial interest. Now, even if the MoD would like to get these planes, the Finance ministry might object to their obscene cost just like it objected to the Airbus A330 tankers.

IMO by the time they come to a decision, if they haven't already, the C17 production line in the US might be shut down at the rate they are going! Till they pay up, the C17s for the IAF are just a dream and so far this is just speculating on a hypothetical.

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby NRao » 22 Feb 2010 08:30

The objections for the tankers and the proposals for the C-17 could have come from PMO.

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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Postby RayC » 22 Feb 2010 10:13

India is to buy ten C - 17 Globemasters through direct military sales to replace the ageing Russian fleet of AN - 32 and IL - 76.. The first of the aircraft maybe delivered three years after signing the contract.

The IAF has selected this aricraft because it can be a tactical and strategic airlifter and can take off and land on short runways with heavy loads. In this context, it maybe noted that effort to resuscitate the old airfields/ ALGs opposite Tibet. It can also operate off semi prepared runways, narrow taxiways and congested ramps.

India has 100 plus medium AN 32 and less that 20 heavylift IL 76s.

It is difficult to obtains spares for the IL 76s as USSR has disintegrated and different spares are manufactured in different parts of the erstwhile USSR. The AWACs and mid air refullers are on refurbished il 76 platforms.

This has been so reported in the magazine, Salute to the Indian Soldier which is a retired servicemen enterprise, where senior officers of all three services are on the editorial board.


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