Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) - Dec 30 - 2009

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 27 Jan 2010 03:14

India does not deserve the pakis...

It's the amriki , britani , cheeni and japani society that deserve the pakis ... these are the ones who are sponsoring pakis to bleed India ...

India just deserves the Tibetans ... that will be peaceful ...

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 27 Jan 2010 03:31

Get it into your psyches and don't delete this mods please: FEUDAL mentality in India permeates most psyches in the upper middle dominating classes. This TFTA vs SDRE debate has to get into the reality in this thread amongst posters and for some who concluded for some reason this is a left liberal problem. I pointed out with examples that are discomforting to many homes and families of many members here too that the problem is a feudal mindset origin that is being actively interpreted as a caste issue amongst most media groups abroad very incorrectly and supported as such by feudals actively.

This 'Aman ka tamasha' crap is going on with people who have nothing to boast about except their page 3 pics with more TFTA types. Paki elite fit in here. These are people who don't sit on the net. They believe that drawing room social etiquette and talking with TFTA Paki feudal RAPES will bring them on a higher and more 'invited' social circle and acceptability in a more higher 'feudal elite TFTA secular RAPE/ White' and yes Indian social page 3 type circle. This is their only humble social aim and their collective energies and moneys go into it. While they go on about it, they order their 12 year old servent girl an SDRE, to bring in Kababs, tea, whatever crap for their RAPE TFTA guests. I have seen this on numerous occasions and have a detest for these folks now.

Why do the leftist Medha Patkars and others don't figure in these circles? Even A Roy is missing here. COZ this is not a left problem. This is entirely a right conservative issue. Think..huh. Hope this board gets this one right.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 27 Jan 2010 03:46

^^^ The left is very much part of this nonsense too. The left in India are elite folks who pontificate abt this crap as long as their privilages are maintained - as peking radio called Jyoti Basu - imperial running dog

This rot is pervasive in the generation that spoke angrezi or had privilages prior to independence.

Suzie Roy hates all things Indian so she will not participate
Medha Patkar is unnecessarily demonized because she went against poster boy Narendra Modi.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 27 Jan 2010 03:47

archan wrote:
1) A private entity took some decisions.
2) The decisions created uproar in another country.
3) The private entity said we took the decisions solely based on business. They don't even claim to have any nationalistic/patriotic reasoning behind those decisions.
4) The govt. said they had nothing to do with it. They in fact, regret the decisions.

So why do we keep claiming "India did this, India did that"? can we please stop coloring everything with "strategic" colors? events have their own dynamics and no amount of jumping up and down on internet fora is going to affect it.

Archan, you are right. The fact of IPL rejecting Paki players, in itself, has no strategic implications and more than likely no strategic motivation behind it. It would have made bad business sense to hire Pakis and that was that. Ask any multinational corporation which hires international H1-B workers and they will probably have similar reservations about hiring Pakis for similar reasons.

So your (1) above is totally correct.

(2) is also correct, though worth noting the uproar in Pukeland was worse in this case than if the rejection had come from any other country's league rather than the IPL. Not surprising however.

(3) also I agree with.

But (4) is the only interesting part from a strategic standpoint. The situation itself was not created out of any strategic motivation but the way in which governments spin the fallout can be presumed to reflect the strategic calculus of those governments.

By observing how GOI and TSP respectively have reacted to the situation, we can make some educated guesses about what their policy aims and goals are, and how they have spun the fallout of IPL-rejection in a way to suit those goals.

TSP government took umbrage to the highest possible level. They realized all the emotive implications of the IPL-rejection on the mindset of the Paki janata and have gone out of their way to maximize the popular resentment. They have even escalated what was not an intergovernmental dispute to a quasi-governmental level by cancelling the visit of Paki legislators to India, etc.

GOI on the other hand first washed their hands of the issue, and now with PC's statement they are trying to salvage an image of conciliation for themselves.

What does this suggest? On the part of TSP, it is in tune with their increasing anti-India belligerence to rub chili powder in the injury of rejection felt by their public. Even though it was not a GOI decision for the IPL to reject Paki players, TSP knows that Paki cricketers are national herrows and that the emotive response of Paki aam janata will not differentiate between GOI, IPL and Indians in general (as evidenced by Sohail Tanvir's "Hindu mentality" comment, this is in fact true). TSP has been trying to fuel public war hysteria with everything at hand, including Deepak Kapoor's remarks and now this. In the meantime, as *official* policy they have signed some sort of accommodation with the TeT (possibly after the dispatch of Hakimullah Mehsud) and ramped up their cross-border firing, infiltration and incidents of terrorism in J&K.

Here are the TSP redlines as I see them.

Amirkhan has imposed a redline that TSP cannot conduct terrorist attacks in Indian cities (idiot Gilani spilled these beans when he complained publicly to Gates that TSP can't guarantee that another 26-11 won't happen again... revealing the clear implication that Amriki-Paki negotiations had been taking place centered around this very redline).

TSP is trying to leverage maximum freedom within this redline, by brinkmanship; stepping up attacks in J&K (still stopping short of Indian cities) while at the same time, refusing to move against North Waziristan Talibs (Haqqani etc.) for another "six to twelve months". That is the same as telling Amirkhan to FO unless the baksheesh is increased.

Amirkhan knows that a war over J&K, or even an increased Indian security presence in J&K in response to these attacks, will constrain Amriki options in Afghanistan... because in such an event, the TSPA will again say that they must deploy to the Indian border and cannot help out against the Taliban.

Amirkhan has his own leverage against TSP redlines. This is being played out in the Headley issue. Headley is the ultimate bargaining chip for the Amirkhans. They can threaten to share Headley with the Indians, or reveal who the TSPA contacts of Headley ("LeT member A" etc.) really are. But even this bargaining chip pales against the card held by TSP... the contingency agreement which allows Amirkhan to step in and secure Pakistani nukes.

So the tug-of-war goes on. TSP's best outcome is a war with India in which America will not allow TSP to suffer any great harm (for obvious reasons). Even though it will be the Americans who pull TSPA's a$$ out of the fire in such a war, the TSPA with their usual "re-interpretation" of history and current events will be able to sell themselves as the victorious sword arm of the new caliphate, winning credibility among the Islamist Paki population. Baksheesh will come, and India-US relations will take a downturn, almost definitely w.r.t. the nuclear deal.

Now for the GOI. Why is the GOI doing everything it can to appear conciliatory, to avoid a conflict with Pakistan by any means? Because it is reacting rather than taking on a pro-active strategy. The GOI is taking the path of least action... instead of determining a vision for its own role in the subcontinent and attempting to realize that vision, it is playing along with the role dictated by Amirkhan with respect to Pakistan, allegedly so that it can concentrate on "other priorities" (like emulating a "Japan model"

).

So the GOI goes along with whatever Amirkhan says. However, instead of bargaining hard with Amirkhan for the maximum quid-pro-quo reward, GOI swallows Amirkhan's hectoring that whatever Amirkhan prescribes is in India's interest (unlike TSPA/ISI which are at least telling Amirkhan to FO). So Amirkhan tells us, "dont do anything provocative and do not retaliate to anything Pakistan does no matter how many civilians, security forces etc. the Pakistanis kill".

So instead of (1) having its own clear vision for the subcontinent or even (2) making sure we get the most out of Amirkhan in exchange for going along with his plan, our GOI is (3) going along with Amirkhan AND paying a price for that in civilian lives, security assets, and governance because after all doing whatever Amirkhan asks is "in our own interest".

So it is that the TSPA/ISI have all the initiative in the world. They know what they want: reassert influence in Afghanistan after Amirkhan leaves, and get maximum baksheesh, weapons etc. from him before he leaves. They are going after those goals (preserve Afghan Taliban, destabilize Karzai, GUBO to the minimum necessary extent, and provoke hostilities with India) in a determined fashion. When something like IPL rejection happens, TSPA/ISI seize upon it and capitalize on it for the advancement of their clearly-defined agenda.

GOI doesn't have any agenda other than reacting to TSP within the scope of sharp boundaries dictated by Amirkhan... so as a purely reactionary player, how can they be expected to take any "initiative" at all? All they can do is wait till the adversary acts first and then come out with some mealy-mouthed, half-witted response like Home Minister P. Chidambaram (edited) did by "regretting" the IPL's decision. Hack thoo.

Fidel Guevara · Post by **Fidel Guevara** » 27 Jan 2010 03:51

Pakistan gets State-of-the-Art Explosives Detection Technology

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/n ... 187.stm?ls

With this new para-normal technology now in their hands, they could easily reverse engineer it into, say, an ICBM. I am scared, and so should everyone on this site!

The UK government has announced a ban on the export to Iraq and Afghanistan of some so-called "bomb detectors".

The device is sold by Jim McCormick, based at offices in rural Somerset, UK. The ADE-651 detector has never been shown to work in a scientific test. There are no batteries and it consists of a swivelling aerial mounted to a hinge on a hand-grip. Critics have likened it to a glorified dowsing rod.

Mr McCormick told the BBC in a previous interview that "the theory behind dowsing and the theory behind how we actually detect explosives is very similar".

He says that the key to it is the black box connected to the aerial into which you put "programmed substance detection cards", each "designed to tune into" the frequency of a particular explosive or other substance named on the card.

Newsnight obtained a set of cards for the ADE-651 and took them to Cambridge University's Computer Laboratory where Dr Markus Kuhn dissected a card supposed to detect TNT. It contained nothing but the type of anti-theft tag used to prevent stealing in high street stores. (Pakis know this tag very well...)

Dr Kuhn said it was "impossible" that it could detect anything at all and that the card had "absolutely nothing to do with the detection of TNT". "There is nothing to program in these cards. There is no memory. There is no microcontroller. There is no way any form of information can be stored," he added.

"These are the cheapest bit of electronics that you can get that look vaguely electronic and are sufficiently flat to fit inside a card," Dr Kuhn told Newsnight.

Iraq paid around $40,000 for each device. They are in use everywhere from Thailand to Pakistan and Lebanon.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 27 Jan 2010 03:52

Shri.Mati.Haali

Pakistan has a declared nuclear doctrine, an operational nuclear command authority and tested nuclear security systems. The proof of our nuclear security is that despite its space satellite network, state-of-the-art intelligence network and wide array of surveillance sensors, the US authorities have not been able to locate the sites of Pakistan's widely dispersed nuclear assets, their launch systems or their trigger mechanism. How does it expect a bunch of rag-tag militia to commandeer Pakistan's nukes, which are not Rugby balls that one would pluck it and carry in one's arms pit? Highly sophisticated technologies are involved in their production and their trigger/launch technology. It is impossible to be used by one who is not highly trained and competent. These rustic and illiterate Taliban can never handle the intricate artefacts, let alone lay their hands on them.
Its military is battle hardened and its Nuclear Command Authority fully capable of exercising the nuclear option at the exact moment and the precise targets. Our South Asian neighbours should join forces to thwart any external aggression. If India is also involved in this conspiracy, it should be mindful that if the Pakistani nukes are targeted today, the Indian nukes can meet the same fate tomorrow

http://tinyurl.com/scratch-and-Grab

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 27 Jan 2010 04:02

http://tinyurl.com/Moans-and-Groans-getting-Loud
Plain Bark

jingoistic statement implying that India might attack Pakistan in case of another Mumbai-like incident is indicative of short-sightedness. In fact, it amounts to playing in the hands of the terrorists. Al Qaeda would not like the countries, targeted by the terrorists, to join hands to wage a concerted war against them, which is possible only if there is an understanding between Pakistan and India, leading to peace in the region.Statements of the type, issued recently by General Deepak Kapoor, in fact are counterproductive as they could serve as an incentive to al Qaeda, and other terrorist groups, to launch another attack inside India to involve both countries in a bloody and devastating strife. One had expected that Robert Gates, who is supposed to have a more comprehensive view of things, would impress upon the Indian leadership the dangerous consequences of any flare-up in South Asia, which would be detrimental not only to the interests of Pakistan and India, but also the US. That he should agree to be the carrier of ultimatums of the sort is highly unfortunate.The war against terrorism can only be won if Pakistan is enabled to focus on the terrorist groups' single-mindedness. External threats of the sort coming from India are bound to distract Pakistan and shift its focus to strengthening its military position along the LoC and the international border with India. What is more, these are bound to create hostility between the two countries, instead of promoting amity. Both Washington and New Delhi have to realise that Pakistan, being the frontline state in the war against terror, and the principal target of al Qaeda and the Taliban, is best positioned to devise its own strategy in the fight

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 27 Jan 2010 04:12

A final word about cricket, IPL etc. Yes it is just a sport, and should not be blown out of proportion, but its political value as an emotive touchstone among the aam janata of the subcontinent cannot be underestimated. It is as much a part of the Indian psyche as soccer is of the Latin American psyche. So events related to cricket can be used to manipulate public opinion big-time.

Honduras and El Salvador went to war once, not "over the result of a football match" as is commonly stated, but having used the emotive power of football as a tool for stirring up the necessary war hysteria among their people. The "match" itself was just the immediate flashpoint for a conflict aimed at achieving much deeper political goals.

Trust me, the Pakis know this. That's why they are making as much of an issue as IPL as possible, tying it to "Hindu mentality" and imputing that it is a move by the GOI to insult Pakistan among other things.

It is important to recognize this because the emotive power of cricket can be used in other ways also. For instance if gods forbid, LeT was able to target Sachin Tendulkar... Indian public response would probably be far more intense than if any politician had been targeted.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 27 Jan 2010 04:21

The left is very much part of this nonsense too.

Check out the left brigade top honchos in India. Ex Feudals again. Jyoti Basu's, Karats just do a background check.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jan 2010 04:25

Prem wrote:Shri.Mati.Haali

Pakistan has a declared nuclear doctrine, an operational nuclear command authority and tested nuclear security systems. The proof of our nuclear security is that despite its space satellite network, state-of-the-art intelligence network and wide array of surveillance sensors, the US authorities have not been able to locate the sites of Pakistan's widely dispersed nuclear assets, their launch systems or their trigger mechanism. How does it expect a bunch of rag-tag militia to commandeer Pakistan's nukes, which are not Rugby balls that one would pluck it and carry in one's arms pit? Highly sophisticated technologies are involved in their production and their trigger/launch technology. It is impossible to be used by one who is not highly trained and competent. These rustic and illiterate Taliban can never handle the intricate artefacts, let alone lay their hands on them.
Its military is battle hardened and its Nuclear Command Authority fully capable of exercising the nuclear option at the exact moment and the precise targets. Our South Asian neighbours should join forces to thwart any external aggression. If India is also involved in this conspiracy, it should be mindful that if the Pakistani nukes are targeted today, the Indian nukes can meet the same fate tomorrow
http://tinyurl.com/scratch-and-Grab

While this part is true there is nothing that prevents the 'highly trained' TSPA itself from transforming into the Taliban and even worse the AlQ.

Infact I forsee this latter transformation as the only way that they can still maintain their command over the armed camp that is TSP.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 27 Jan 2010 04:32

Prem wrote:http://tinyurl.com/[b]wuff-wuff[/b]

This Abdul Ruff whoever he is, on a first glance looks to be from a puki madarassa in Bhawalpur,

But surprise !!
he is from JNU and the worst part - this guy's 'research' (along with his lodging and food) at JNU is being subsidized to a pittance by indian taxpayers

archan · Post by **archan** » 27 Jan 2010 04:39

Rudradev wrote:.All they can do is wait till the adversary acts first and then come out with some mealy-mouthed, half-witted response like Chidumberum did by "regretting" the IPL's decision. Hack thoo.

Janab,
Your opinions are great and you are welcome to express them in your nice and eloquent manner. However, the highlighted part above is a problem for us. That is where our red-lines are. Please correct that. Thanks.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 27 Jan 2010 04:42

Tonight on Times Now , Zafar Hilaly, Aiyar and two other guys were there and a debate was on wrt Gila-nahi's no guarantee against jehad on India.I loved the way Aiyar was talking.He said" How can Gilanahi guarantee something when he's not in control of his country, his army, his ISI , jehadi groups and his government?" pakis donot have to defend themselves , they have left it to GoI.

GoI is doing pretty well. Bottomline is , pakis want to fight with India , in their jehaniyat , it's a Hindu India and they will fight till one of them is obliterated in totality. On the other hand is a secular India, which is looking for reasons not to fight. Whatever the causes of this unwillingness to fight be , GoI will tolerate anything from Mumbai to parliament to Akshardham to Delhi to Bangalore toAhmedabad to Varanasi to Kashmir.

The point is no matter what the pakis do, GoI does not feel the urge to end this terror on its citizens.Pakis take saddistic pleasure in killing innocent Indians and laughing at the impotency of GoI. India needs an Indira to save it from terror across and within the border.But what we have is eu**chs running the country.Nothing can provoke them to fight back, just nothing.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 27 Jan 2010 04:44

Dung Beetles coming out in Pristine Glory,
http://www.thepakistaninewspaper.com/ne ... p?id=15799

RAW ..AL..PINDI, Jan 26: The United States should talk to the Afghan Taliban leader Mullah Omar if it wants to resolve the conflict in Afghanistan, a former ISI officer who is believed to have trained Omar, said in an interview to a US-based news group.Retired Brigadier Sultan Tarar, known as Colonel Imam, said Mullah Omar was open to talks. He said if a sincere message 0000000came to him from the Americans, it will be heard.f a sincere message comes from the Americans, these people (the Taliban) are very big-hearted. They will listen. But if you try to divide the Taliban, you'll fail[/b]. Anyone who leaves Mullah Omar is no more Taliban. Such people are just trying to deceive,” said Tarar, in an interview with McClatchy Newspapers. His comments come as the United States and its allies seem increasingly restless to find a path toward a political solution to the war in Afghanistan. Meanwhile, US national security adviser James Jones said that the Obama administration is "pursuing a general strategy of engagement."
"We'll see where this takes us," Jones said.

archan · Post by **archan** » 27 Jan 2010 04:52

CRamS wrote: Had Indian govt stuck to its original stand, someone, I believe it was Tiwari who said (I am paraphrasing) Indian govt had nothing to do with IPL, but at the same time, instead of mass hysteria, TSP must look at its own conduct to see why IPL franchises felt it was risky to pick TSPians. That was a dignified and mature position.

I believe that is GoI's stand even now. They had nothing to do with IPL and even IPL says they have no control over who the franchises pick, because the franchises are spending loads of money ($750K for average players is a lot). So the franchises have to look at their money, no one can blame them for that.

CRamS wrote: But then comes PC and blows cold about why its an outrage not picking TSPians, TSPians are the best in the world and they should have been picked bla bla, it took away the sheen from India's previous statement. He had no business saying that.

That is fine, whether he had any business or not is a matter of opinion. You may feel he did not (and I would agree with you on that). However I do keep in mind that we don't know everything that goes on in diplomatic circles and statements often have hidden reasons behind them.

CRamS wrote: So much is in the public sphere. Now heaven knows how much pressure Lalit Modi & co are in provate to reverse the decision. Hence his latest comment.

No point in discussing something which we have no basis for. However...

CRamS wrote: Does all this not show that India cannot make a decision, even if it makes business sense, if it hurts TSP's H&D.

Who is your India here? a decision made by commercial franchises - is that India's - the nation's - decision?
What your rants seem to say is - India snubbed the paki players, then Indian politicians are saying we should not have done so. This is where I have a problem with your reasoning.
PC is simply going by what is his govt.'s stated (and pre-decided) position on relations with Pakistan. I agree he need not comment on decisions made by private franchises but it his his choice. He can express his opinion but he cannot force it on the franchises. He cannot use his position to affect their decisions. If he does so, he will be deserving of this criticism.
What irritates me is when we are assuming a lot and ranting away based on those assumptions.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 27 Jan 2010 04:53

durgesh wrote: On the other hand is a secular India, which is looking for reasons not to fight.

Can you explain how a secular India does not want to fight to defend itself.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 27 Jan 2010 04:55

Lilo wrote:he is from JNU and the worst part - this guy's 'research' (along with his lodging and food) at JNU is being subsidized to a pittance by indian taxpayers

There is no such person at JNU. This is a non-de-plume used by a number of Pakistani writers.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 27 Jan 2010 04:56

Pak trying to Talibanize Hizb?

An Intelligence Bureau (IB) doument that TIMES NOW has accessed lists out the latest worry for the security establishment. Pakistan is now trying to Talibanise Syed Salahuddin-led Hizbul Mujahideen, the largest indigenous terrorist organisation to increase its lethal capability.

In fact, the document goes on to say that some of the Pakistani terrorists arrested in Kashmir this year belonged to NWFP in Pakistan, where the Taliban are in control.

In fact, LeT, known to be active in the valley has recently shifted some of its facilities towards the western side in Pakistan, the Talibanised areas.

Disturbingly, an effort was afoot to increase the foreign component in Hijbul-Mujahideen.

R_Kumar · Post by **R_Kumar** » 27 Jan 2010 05:06

I believe every politician says what the general public want to hear. What general public from both the countries want on the IPL drama can be guessed from the various statements that have been made by politicians from both the countries.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 27 Jan 2010 05:08

Acharya wrote:
durgesh wrote: On the other hand is a secular India, which is looking for reasons not to fight.

Can you explain how a secular India does not want to fight to defend itself.

Acharya ji, i donot know what you inferred from that sentence. My point was pakis look at India as a Hindu nation while India thinks of itself as a secular nation. As far as the will to defend itself is concerned , you tell me how is India defending itself from the terror ? If you think sending a dove card or dossier is the way to defend

, then God bless Indians.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 27 Jan 2010 05:11

durgesh wrote: India thinks of itself as a secular nation.

How can you infer this. GOI governance is secular.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 27 Jan 2010 05:17

Acharya wrote:How can you infer this. GOI governance is secular.

How can you infer that it is not ?

But let us leave it here or it will get OT, flaim-baiting bla bla and anyways i am not too good at jugglery with words.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 27 Jan 2010 05:27

^ What he means is citizens cannot be secular but governance can be.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 27 Jan 2010 05:30

pgbhat wrote:^ What he means is citizens cannot be secular but governance can be.

OK I got it now.

khan · Post by **khan** » 27 Jan 2010 06:26

Lilo wrote:
Prem wrote:http://tinyurl.com/[b]wuff-wuff[/b]
This Abdul Ruff whoever he is, on a first glance looks to be from a puki madarassa in Bhawalpur,

But surprise !!
he is from JNU and the worst part - this guy's 'research' (along with his lodging and food) at JNU is being subsidized to a pittance by indian taxpayers

I know this guy Abdul Ruff. IIRC he used to teach Russian at CIEFL in Hyderabad.

I was very young (around 5-6) when I first met him. I remember him as a nice clean cut young guy (no beard) - he might have have had a strange personality, but I was too young to judge him by anything other than his appearance and the way he treated kids.

Then he got married.

What follows is campus gossip. The story goes that he sought a bride thru the classifieds, married her without seeing her face (she was probably in a burqa, he might have sized her up thru pictures). I think it was the working day after the wedding, the the police were there and the bride was gone. If I remember correctly, he had locked her in the house because he didn't want her to leave(probably because it would be Un-Islamic) and she had to either break out of the house or scream for the neighbours.

After that, he became a religious fundamentalist with a huge beard and always wore a skullcap.

Later, growing up, I ran into him a few times and he always seemed to be a nice guy.

Added later:
I am surprised to see the amount of venom he has towards India. In my opinion, this guy has psychiatric issues and is not representative of the general Muslim population - even the more fundamentalist ones (and I have known several).

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Jan 2010 06:32

durgesh wrote:Tonight on Times Now , Zafar Hilaly, Aiyar and two other guys were there and a debate . . .

Has Times Now replaced Maroof Raza & GP with the likes of Mr. Mani Shankar Aiyar ? Is this a fall out of the on-going tamasha ?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jan 2010 06:40

surinder wrote: What you are proposing is an area-averaged time of M rule.

I had proposed the same on this forum the same thing a little while back when this 1000 year rule thingie was discussed. Just like you, I too lack the knowledge of history to do it.

Surinder - you have come up with an important factor in the quest for truth. Honesty and absence of hot air. I would guess that 99.9% of people protesting and squealing the 1000 years of Mughal rule assertion themselves do not have the requisite detailed knowledge to do this or even the dedication to the cause to work on it. It's all very well to shout and rant about distorted history - but when one asks about what is the real story there is huge gaping hole and this is one example.

When it comes to protesting and pulling someone or something down - everyone has a 150 plus IQ. When it comes to butt busting - and perhaps doing this area averaging thing or even writing an article to rebut - we have no takers,

In an analysis of Arab psyche compared with the American, it was pointed out that in a mixed group, the Arab might say " I am hungry - I am going to get me a meal" - but after saying that he will just sit there and not get himself a meal. The American will tend to follow that statement with the action required. In other words the statement is made only when the action is about to be done. It is not made in isolation. The Arab makes the statement in isolation when he has no real plans to take action. Indians certainly have a dose of this "Easternness" - of blowing hot with not a finger being lifted to set things right. That is why it appears like insincere moaning and nothing else.

It is OK to be like that as long as we acknowledge that such a tendency might exist and compensate for it, But what many do is end up blaming Western sociologists and psychologists for poisoning our minds with their observations. And we do not use information available by Indians or provide it as we should - displaying the gaping hole that I mentioned earlier and proving the point that e talk but not act.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jan 2010 07:03

Rudradev wrote:A final word about cricket, IPL etc. Yes it is just a sport, and should not be blown out of proportion, but its political value as an emotive touchstone among the aam janata of the subcontinent cannot be underestimated.

Rudradevji - you are, IMO doing a dangerous equal equal to make a point that is not necessary. Whether Pakistan or anyone likes it or not India is the mover here. Cricket is a religion in India and Pakistan is a zero when it comes to crowd pulling and money. I accept that Pakistan has good players - but hey so does Sri Lanka.

So all this emotive hype of aam janata of the subcontinent is telling a lie and giving the impression that Pakistan has a share in making cricket the biggest and richest sport in the subcontinent. Well we could discuss economy, poverty and caste in the subcontinent on the same lines and have no problems about that since all involve the "aam janata of the subcontinent"

Use Google, Bing or Yahoo and search for "cricket is a religion" and see the country names that show up. Apart from good players and hype Pakistan is a zero. Indian cricket would be just as good and rich even if there were no Pakistan and no Pakistanis. There is no need to do this type of equal equal to make a point. The Paki cricket board is a flyweight and the absence of Paquis has made little difference to spectators in India. Why are you doing this?

It is an emotive touchstone in India. Not "The subcontinent". Period. What it is in Pakistan is of no concern to India. Paki cricketers are chosen or not chosen on the basis of the interests of the Indians involved. And security of Sachin or anyone else is a subset of the overall issue of security in India. An attack on Sachin would be equal to an attack on say Rahul Gandhi or Amitabh Bachhan.

I note that the GoI tends to warn Pakistan about a reaction before certain important days - and again - warning came just before Republic day. That warning came in conjunction with a warning from the US (Gates) telling Pakistan that the US would not oppose the idea that Pakistan needs to be punished. So the GoI and the USG are working in concert. The cricket issue must not be mixed up.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Jan 2010 07:13

CRamS wrote:But then comes PC and blows cold about why its an outrage not picking TSPians, TSPians are the best in the world and they should have been picked bla bla, . . .

If we carefully analyze Chidambaram's statements, a few things would be obvious.

"these players were coming as individuals, it was not a Pakistan team." - Does he mean that a team representing Pakistan wold not be welcome ?
"I don't know why the IPL teams acted in the manner they acted." - He doesn't need to know and that is what he admits.
"But certainly to suggest that there was a hint or nudge from the government is completely untrue" - He clears the Government of its involvement in influencing the IPL team owners.
"in fact, I am disappointed that the IPL teams, IPL organisers did not pick any Pakistani player." - Should be taken as his personal opinion. Probably to score a point against Lalit Modi.
"I think it is disservice to cricket that some of these players were not picked." - This part is unwarranted. IPL team owners are under no obligation to provide any 'service' to Cricket. It is simply making money through entertainment. The runs scored or the wickets/catches taken do not count against an individual's record. The real 'service' comes from matches played between countries officially sponsored by their respective boards.
"well, you see, if no player from a country is picked, obviously the country does feel insulted." - Well, this was also unwarranted going by his earlier contention that Pakistani players were not representing their country. For a long, long time, Pakistani players were picked by the English counties and there was no Indian playing there. Then we began to have rare appearances of a MAK Pataudi, Engineer, Bedi etc. Even then, there were far greater numbers of Pakistani players there. So what ? The English County is/was, IMHO, far more 'official' than IPL.
"As a cricket lover, I am disappointed " - Again a personal opinion. But, my doubt is whether he loves cricket. Not that there is anything wrong in not loving a game. But, I think this is a statement of 'opportunity' because my information was that he has no interest in cricket.

On the whole, he could have avoided certain things; probably he made them because of his bitterness with Lalit Modi. But, he also conveyed a message regarding a Pakistani team's visit. How steadfastly GoI will remain in not allowing a Pakistani team to come here is another moot point.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jan 2010 07:25

durgesh wrote: India needs an Indira to save it from terror across and within the border.But what we have is eu**chs running the country.Nothing can provoke them to fight back, just nothing.

Well going back to good old times is what the whole subcontinent wants. People are yearning for Jinnah across the border. Even I - in times of distress, cry for my momma who is no more. I want to go backwards in time.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 27 Jan 2010 08:16

pak is being S-e-Sed again on this IPL thing. all the noise from people in govt, but no action in the end.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 27 Jan 2010 08:21

If only the GOI and its representatives such as PC (inclusive of all politicos across the spectrum who mouthed inannities about the sentiments of Bakis) had half the concern about the ethnically cleansed kashmiris, as they show about the sentiments of bakis and its government, most of the refugee camps in India would have been unwarranted.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jan 2010 08:52

V_Raman wrote:pak is being S-e-Sed again on this IPL thing. all the noise from people in govt, but no action in the end.

I think this IPL selection is being made into a bigger thing on BRF than it actually is, but the media must take some blame.

Everyone is out to see points being scored against Pakistan and the smallest straw is clutched to keep the "Pakistan has been shamed/defeated" idea afloat.

It was the media that said that the IPL non selection was a "snub to Pakistan". And true to its colors the Pakistani government reacted as if the entire country had been snubbed. Until these two things happened the government of India was essentially outside the picture. But after the Pakistani government read the IPL saga as a snub and protested the GoI was forced to say something on the issue.

The Government is making it clear that they have issued no guidelines to exclude Pakis. It would be absolutely stupid to issue such a guideline when it would be far better to deal with terrorism and displaced Pandits. The GoI issuing guidelines to exclude Pakis would be a pointless exercise and the GoI has not undertaken that pointless exercise - because it is not a punishment for Pakistan and does not reduce the real problems we face, be it terrorism or displaced Pandits.

It was BRF that decided that the GoI had issued a demarche to IPL that this IPL thing was some kind of "official government snub" to Pakistan and MK Narayanan's last act as natl. security adviser. But that was only BRF's delusion. It was never true and even if true it would have been a stupid form of toothless revenge against Pakistan - I mean really! Imagine the GoI saying: "You send in 10 men and kill Indians in Mumbai and we will insult you by not selecting Pakis for IPL!" Is this really what we expect the GoI to do? But sirs! If this is not what we expect from the GoI why do we moan when the GoI points out that it not doing such a stupid thing? And why did we triumphantly try to convince ourselves that the GoI was "taking revenge" on Pakistan?

So where is the Sharm el Sheikh here? I believe that we are collectively delusional on the forum more often that we ought to be. There is a cognitive bias when it comes to the way we look at events.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 27 Jan 2010 08:56

Didn't this mixed-breed insult the entire Hindu Quam on TV?
Sohail ready to play in IPL if invited

Notwithstanding the humiliation faced by Pakistani cricketers in the IPL auction, all-rounder Sohail Tanvir on Tuesday said he has no problem with playing in the Indian Premier League, if invited again and PCB allows him to do so.

I have nothing personal against India

they had a good previous experience of playing in India

When I went to India with the Pakistan team in 2007 and after that for the IPL inaugural season, I was warmly welcomed and treated well by the Indian people

Changing his tune now. Money talks, huh? Shame on the Indians if this loser is given a visa and allowed back in.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jan 2010 09:04

anupmisra wrote:Didn't this mixed-breed insult the entire Hindu Quam on TV?
Sohail ready to play in IPL if invited
Shame on the Indians if this loser is given a visa and allowed back in.

No Noooo!!!

Allow him in. Let him play. Let him get money and then shame him by playing that clip after he has played and collected money and helped IPL to collect advertising revenue from Pakistan. That is the gora way of dealing with beggar-slaves. The dharmic way is too lame.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 27 Jan 2010 09:21

Article in Urdu-Language Women's Magazine of Pakistan-Based Jihadist Group, Titled 'Polio: Disease or Dangerous Jewish Conspiracy?' States: 'The Jews, Who Dream of Ruling the World, Have Invented... Vaccines, Drugs, and Injections... to Weaken Muslims'

The article, by Mohammad Kamran Talib, is titled "Polio: Disease or Dangerous Jewish Conspiracy?" It was published in the Urdu-language monthly magazine Mahnama Banat-e-'Aisha ("Daughters of 'Aisha" – 'Aisha was one of the wives of the Prophet Muhammad). Mahnama Banat-e-'Aisha is a sister publication of Haftroza Al-Qalam, an Urdu-language weekly loyal to Jaish-e-Muhammad, an Al-Qaeda-linked militant organization based in the Pakistani province of Punjab. The article first appeared in June 2006 an Urdu-language magazine called Mahnama Rahnuma-e-Sihat, and was reproduced in the October 2009 issue of Mahnama Banat-e-'Aisha.

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Jan 2010 09:23

I know this guy Abdul Ruff. IIRC he used to teach Russian at CIEFL in Hyderabad.

I was very young (around 5-6) when I first met him. I remember him as a nice clean cut young guy (no beard) - he might have have had a strange personality, but I was too young to judge him by anything other than his appearance and the way he treated kids.

Interesting...

So, the BR myth that the name is a Paki nom-de-guerre is busted then? Shocking amount of venom he seems to have for his own country.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 27 Jan 2010 09:54

sum wrote:
I know this guy Abdul Ruff. IIRC he used to teach Russian at CIEFL in Hyderabad.
Interesting...

So, the BR myth that the name is a Paki nom-de-guerre is busted then? Shocking amount of venom he seems to have for his own country.

could be an India, but JNU does not seem to have listed him listed. also he has listed his location as US on FB, whereas his articles mention him being a JNU faculty & not ex-JNU faculty
though location entry can be fudged [as I myself do on most occassions], but if he were so eager to establish himself as an Indian would he also not have listed his location as India in FB too
not enough is known abt him, tough I feel, considering that his articles appear only on shady websites having no credibility at all, we must not spend too much time discussing that guy - waste of effort & resources JMHO

Vivek_A · Post by **Vivek_A** » 27 Jan 2010 09:58

Troika on rampage

ISLAMABAD – US covert organisation Central Intelligence Agency’s (CIA) notorious reputation to eliminate its ‘enemies’ is known well to the world and its intensive efforts, which have been underway since long, to form a vicious alliance with Israel and India have finally begun to show.

More importantly, this meeting followed a low-profile visit of Israeli Chief of Defence Staff, Lt Gen Gabi Ashkenazi to India earlier in the same month, during which he had met the top brass of the Indian armed forces. According to the news service, these developments can be evaluated in the pretext of reports that India has bought military hardware and software from Israel worth $8bn since 1999, making India the biggest buyer of Israeli arms across the globe.
Given that the US barely sees any signs of success in its so-called war on terror in Afghanistan, US and Israel are encouraging Indian military and economic presence in Afghanistan to serve the purpose. While Pakistan is asked to ‘do more’ the US and India, with the help of pro-American Afghan government, are all set to engage ‘likeminded’ and moderate Taliban into talks, to use them for destabilising Pakistan and Iran. Under the scenario, the situation deems fit into what is described by some analysts as FINISH plan, abbreviated from “financial ruin, infrastructure destruction, nuclear scientists elimination, Indian hegemony, seizing of physical nuclear weapons and harassing Pakistan’s leadership and its public.”

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 Jan 2010 10:04

archan wrote: ...
However I do keep in mind that we don't know everything that goes on in diplomatic circles and statements often have hidden reasons behind them.
...
PC is simply going by what is his govt.'s stated (and pre-decided) position on relations with Pakistan. I agree he need not comment on decisions made by private franchises but it his his choice. He can express his opinion but he cannot force it on the franchises. He cannot use his position to affect their decisions. If he does so, he will be deserving of this criticism.

What irritates me is when we are assuming a lot and ranting away based on those assumptions.

SSridhar wrote: ...
On the whole, he could have avoided certain things; probably he made them because of his bitterness with Lalit Modi. But, he also conveyed a message regarding a Pakistani team's visit. How steadfastly GoI will remain in not allowing a Pakistani team to come here is another moot point.

We (I mean aam-janata abduls) can make any statement on any topic and get away with it, as there will be little follow-up action and consequences. But our beloved Chidu dada is different.

By now he should know that he cannot mix GOI positional statements and his personal opinions in the same press conference as people may mis-interpret him and influence unfavourable outcomes for India.

We can justify his actions on one or other pretext but net-net it damages Indian interests.

If his personal comments were due to his bitterness for Modi, then he picked a wrong occassion to show them, and if he had additional information (Archan-ji's inference) then there is nothing wrong in nit-picking them to understand the interconnections.

JMT.

P.S: I have no intention of starting another soosai kusti,