Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

BR Forum Feedback

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Suraj
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby Suraj » 04 Oct 2013 21:50

nachiket wrote:I'm sorry Suraj, but if the said poster has been warned and banned so many times, he doesn't deserve to be on the forum. Obviously, he likes to wantonly flout the posting rules that his membership here is contingent upon.

Well, therein lies the rub. Within the last two pages of so of this thread were the following feedback suggestions:
a) Permanent bans should be eliminated because they are too final in nature
b) Many otherwise competent posters have big egos and dislike being persistently shhhed by moderators.
How do you reconcile these valid statements with yours ? There are plenty of posters here who have abrasive posting personalities that gives us moderators a headache. As such, the situation is nowhere near as straightforward as you put it. We can ban them en masse, but that would amount to yet another hazard - of banning because we 'don't like how they post'. Spinster was recently permanently banned, after maybe 10 avatars over a decade, because we gave up on him finally.
amit wrote:And sorry I don't like to report posts, what to do I'm like that onlee.

You want us to help you, but you don't want to help us do so ? Say you get into an argument and a bunch of posters gang up on you. You don't report posts. No moderator is around on that thread for a day or two, after all there are 160 threads in the first pages across all 4 forums, for a total of 6400 posts, and that's not counting that a fast thread may have more than one page per day. In the meantime you're hounded out. Well, what's the point ? This is like sitting on the Titanic on the morning of Apr 15, 1912 and saying "oh sorry, I don't like those small boats; I'll wait for another ship".
rohitvats wrote:his point is about ensuring that a contrarian POV and opinion is not drowned out by personal attacks by majority camp. That the posters are not bullied. I have personally faced this situation when someone called me 'gunga-din' because I had a contrary POV to majority opinion on the thread. While the poster was warned/banned on my complaint, the fact remains that enough is said and done short of such grave provocations which stifles counter POV and those making counter POV. Name calling or referring to people as anti-Hindu or anti-this or anti-that is one such tactic.

It's called trolling. It's the bane of web forums everywhere, unfortunately. There's no BRF specific solution here. We can't stop them before the fact. Often we cannot stop them even after the fact because posters, as mentioned above, do not or will not use the one tool - post reporting - that actually gives us notice of fracas in a particular thread. Or worse, they do both - report a post, then start hitting back themselves. When we see the post report(s), we see a string of he-said-she-said tirades that typically lead to both being warned/banned.

It's the nature of this medium that posters will face this behavior, not just on BRF, but anywhere. In every instance, the only way you can get through this unscathed - provided there's active moderation - is to use the tools that enable the moderators to identify the culprits unequivocally then and there. You get in a fight in response ? It doesn't help us help you. You walk away and then complain here ? That doesn't help either.

shiv
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby shiv » 04 Oct 2013 21:55

Suraj wrote:Say you get into an argument and a bunch of posters gang up on you. You don't report posts. No moderator is around on that thread for a day or two, after all there are 160 threads in the first pages across all 4 forums, for a total of 6400 posts, and that's not counting that a fast thread may have more than one page per day.

My turn to ask a rhetorical question, but at least it is something that can be implemented with little difficulty even if it causes much admin takleef.

What would happen to BRF if the all forums remained unmoderated for a month? Has anyone even thought of this? How important is moderation given the fact that members are carefully let in by a process of vetting? This test might give everyone an idea of just how important moderators are to BRF. I am certain BRFites are mature enough to handle things without policing. The internet has matured and most people who come in are hardly newbies to the medium.

What is so hot about this policy of selective entry to BRF if trolls remain. I am sure members can handle trolls. OK a few threads will get disrupted but after that the forum will become self regulating. Try it and see if you want proof.

Virupaksha
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby Virupaksha » 04 Oct 2013 22:09

Most of the posts here directly belong to the whine thread.

For the cry babys against ganging up, Nobody took away your keyboard. All I see here are those cry babies trying to gang up and shoot from Shiv's shoulders and then talk about other's ganging up. Irony seems to be oblivious term.

Negi, you really want to bring that troll Somnath here? You really want to air his views? So many gems from him including one which has become etched in my memory "fake currency is good for India and India should be grateful to the fake currency smugglers." He was the classic definition of a troll. He would jump from topic to topic, when cornered logically, he would simply skip over the main part, grab a tangential point and then it always ends with, India should give kashmir away. India should destroy its military. India should destroy its nuke tech. India should sell away its gold and land to foreigners. India should give away Sir Creek. India should give away....

When the whole forum was pilloring rahul mehta, I actually called him someone who is ahead of his times. Within his comments, I saw a persistent logic, perhaps unreasonable but some kind of logic. Somnath was a troll who spoke hifi english. That is all there is to that comprehension man.
Last edited by Virupaksha on 04 Oct 2013 22:23, edited 1 time in total.

shiv
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby shiv » 04 Oct 2013 22:17

RajitO wrote:But where I am with the Mods is that I don't see them being able to influence quality of BRF.


Would you or anyone else be able to hazard a guess as to exactly what the mods are influencing on BRF? Two of the best forums I belong to are unmoderated forums ( both are private.)

If the posters are the people who influence the forum and the mods have no role, the mods are unnecessary.

Suraj
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby Suraj » 04 Oct 2013 22:24

shiv: I have attempted to address a lot of feedback matters at length. I do not have the time or bandwidth to hold a long rhetorical discussion here. I'd even suggest NOT to hold such a discussion in this thread, because it's a feedback thread, and thought experiments will disrupt us from seeing what are posts someone directs towards us and what are just rhetorical discussions or conversations among posters here.

There are a handful of good suggestions, such as to move some threads out of GDF. I suggest posters stick to using this thread for simple directed feedback suggestions, so we can simply respond as to whether or not they can be taken up.

shiv
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby shiv » 04 Oct 2013 22:29

When I started off as admin on BRF some of us were a bunch of jihadi moderators who were banning ruthlessly and killing all opinions we did not want to see. "Adi kollu" ("Hit and Kill" in Tamil) was a motto shared by me and another admin. That gave a direction to BRF based on the personal likes and dislikes of admins which were mainly in the direction of a military/technical and strat discussion forum.

Moderating then had a purpose, Hitlerian as it might have been. Why is moderation needed now? Facebook and Twitter seem to be even better than BRF at crowd sourcing and are totally unmoderated. Governments are trying to control those sites. Unsuccessfully.

Rahul M
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby Rahul M » 04 Oct 2013 22:31

amit wrote:And sorry I don't like to report posts, what to do I'm like that onlee.
please give a min to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGt5f70K02Q

I sense there's a feeling that reporting a post is like the kid back in kindergarten who complained to the teacher about his classmates.
well, it's not. it's like reporting a crime you witnessed. whether or not you were the victim it's your duty to report it if you want to live in a safe city. same logic here. if you want BR free of these things, help us do it. pretty please.

---------------------
@amit, I always read your posts with interest. to stop posting just because someone trolled you is just sad. it reminds me of what I wrote to someone a few days ago (discussing BRF, as it happens) "sometimes, I feel that the problem with a moderate view is that it has too few people willing to fight for it".

the extremists (for lack of a better word) would ignore warnings, bans, ridicule and keep on fighting, may be because their strong belief makes it all worth it. for a moderate, the smallest of barriers is enough to deter him from expressing his view. any more effort required and he would just meekly surrender the battlefield because a fight is just not 'worth it'. if he himself does not have the conviction to defend his POV in face of hostility, what to say of others ?
is it any wonder that BRF is going one particular way in terms of POV ?

Karan M
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby Karan M » 04 Oct 2013 22:56

amit wrote:Karan ji,

If you think a login requirement can protect you and others from such determined thekedaars then good luck to you! :-)


Actually, it does. Niran succintly addressed my (and I suspect other folks as well) concerns above. I want what I post on BR to remain on BR, not be picked up and posted elsewhere by non BR posters whom I dont know and then cause issues with thekedaars. In an open forum, that issue is always there.

Incidentally that infamous Facebook incident where two girls were picked up by the police happened after their comments on Bal Thackeray's funeral. I point this out to give context to your point: "... who happen to include leaders whom he has supported and admired, as it stood before..."

For record, I can think of a lot of adjectives when I think of Thackeray but admired wouldn't be one of them.


The one incident above is merely a drop in a much larger pool. Plus I was referring to your support for our PM (whom you admire and hence would take umbrage at the anger directed at him) and other worthies in UPA1. The current dispensation has the power of the Indian state behind it, and its record versus political opponents speaks for itself. Plus, there is the hatred of BR, BR admins, BR posters on other blogs (linked by folks here to state other blogs were unhappy) who constantly attack everything on BR as being crazy or that someone should do something. While you may be circumspect, others may not be, and that is a concern.

Further, If the center right wing paradigm shift bothers folks, they have their choice to create their center left environment elsewhere.


My point is not about centre right or left, its about intolerance of opposing POVs and name calling.
[/quote]

Come sir, when it comes to the nub, you have (mostly) given as good as you got.

And it does boil down to your political and personal belief system.

In your prior posts, in this thread and others etc, you have elucidated your belief system in detail.

You have noted you don't believe in the kind of Hindutva the BJP practices (you stated it was too aggressive, and not reflective of a true moderate which you are), also that your concept of India first, Bengali second, Hindu third etc defines you. What will you do when your opinions are not those of others and your constant elucidation of your beliefs is countered in turn.

There may be many who directly oppose what you believe in and will hence counter your statements. Some may counter part of your statements. At any rate, you are feeling ganged up on and feel that the admins are not supportive, and should ensure you get an equal say in issues.

I submit to you, that is just not the way it should be. As a counterpoint, those who counter you will claim that they are the ones who are right, and why is it that you are getting a disproportionate say? And so forth.

There is no given thing anywhere in the world, that everyone should be tolerant of your viewpoints and should accept them as is. The same applies to what I say as well. The only way anyone of us can continue is via persistent exposition of our respective viewpoints, which is exactly what Suraj said.

Either it is this, or to find an environment which is more reflective of people who hold the same opinion as you and hence you don't have to spend your valuable time getting into differences of opinion.

A third is to put as many of the recurrent posters you dislike/do not wish to debate with, on ignore. Its not a perfect system either, but depends on whether you are willing to work with it

Which you choose, is yours to choose.

All I would state is that asking moderators to intervene to support an artificial detente or equality is pointless.

Of course, I do agree with you about name calling, that is not allowed and generally I do see moderators stepping in.

darshhan
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby darshhan » 04 Oct 2013 23:22

For starters atleast "Namo" and "State Assembly elections" thread should be out in open. BRFites have been putting most of their efforts in these two threads for quite some time now and it will be the same for the near future too.

The reason why Discussion on Politics is superseding Military talk on BRF is just a reflection of our sad state affairs wrt the leadership of this country. Citizens are genuinely concerned that if India doesn't get a vastly better leadership, the country will start devolving into anarchy; something straight out of nightmare.

When the political situation of the country is so critical, every other issue including state of military hardware is relegated much below in the priority list.

SaiK
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby SaiK » 05 Oct 2013 00:15

^perhaps you mean citizens who have BRF id. Regarding the rest of the citizens view point will only be known after the next elections.

darshhan
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby darshhan » 05 Oct 2013 00:27

SaiK wrote:^perhaps you mean citizens who have BRF id. Regarding the rest of the citizens view point will only be known after the next elections.


Saik Ji,When I said Citizens, I mean a huge majority of Citizen of India. BRFites are definitely a subset of this group. I do not need to wait till elections to find out that people at large are extremely concerned for the future of India. This is because I do not believe in leading an isolated life. I interact with people on daily basis.

ShauryaT
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby ShauryaT » 05 Oct 2013 01:16

Suraj: I largely echo Amit's thoughts. I do not think he is asking for moderation to favor one view or the other.

BRF used to be a place where informed views based on credible sourcing and researched views of posters or of those of their open sources used to be a hallmark for quality discussions. The thrust was on a discussion where differing view points are presented without getting personal or with a religious or overtly political over hang. Instead, the threads across the board have become precisely this - discussions are reduced to a political cover.

Just look at the words used even in this feedback thread, where words like "burqa" are used - a word used in context of secularism, which in India has an association with minorities - after Modi used that word recently. Are we then surprised that Muslims do not come to Bharat Rakshak?

After volumes of works out there on "secularism", claims are made that people do not understand it. One thing to say, do not agree with a certain view point of secularism, but another to say do not understand it, which is sheer ignorance or an outright political bias or worse being a liar. The Secularism thread started by a poster banned three times ,warned a dozen times (which was news for me) has no business being on the forum and starting threads of these types where there is zero interest in learning about an important idea that governs the function of our state. Even after repeatedly pointing to constitutional articles, SC judgments and expert academic viewpoints on the matter by me and a few others, the political diatribe continued (even if I myself question the concept and its practices) and hence I quit posting on the forum, since July 24.

If a premium is placed on who are the loudest and most prolific posters to make your point against better-informed and credibly sourced views that is exactly what this forum has largely become. Moderation has effectively failed to control quality and a congenial environment to exchange view points – even if strongly differing or contrarian.

You further claim that it is the “only” way to mould opinion, then how do you explain your zealous protection and policing of economy threads, where you have successfully managed to keep discussions under control, insisting that overtly political views be out of the economy threads?

The question then becomes, where is the Suraj (not you in person, but any moderator) to zealously protect other threads in a similar manner, where BRF's long standing rules of not allowing religion and political discussions or for posters not to cross the line and hurl personal insults and its rules and traditions of not making this a “use and throw board” are zealously protected in a consistent manner across the board?

The “Strategic” threads need special attention, Strategy is a much used and abused word. As some above have suggested that it does not require domain knowledge and hence easy to contribute to. Nothing more can be farther from the truth. Strategic Security is a broad concept that involves a sufficiently detailed level of knowledge across many streams and only a few are able to connect such dots. Ramana is one such who can, regardless of agreement or disagreement on a specific issue. So, I have nothing but respect for his abilities and contribution and his willingness to listen and absorb different points of view.

However, I do question his “non-moderating” approach and not fully enforcing the rules of the forum, especially in the strategic forum. Deliberate or not, the fact is his high tolerance for partisan political and sectarian and communal views of many members has opened space for such views becoming dominant and subsequently contributed to the detoriation of discussion quality and his “openness” has become a liability for informed and substantiated views. Rakesh and Shiv, as moderators have owned up to their mistakes as moderators and are taller for it.

PS: Ramana ji, I hope in your large heartedness you are able to take this honestly felt view. I myself hold numerous flaws.

But moderators do not have to be experts to understand everything to preserve rules and encourage quality. Resorting to the lowest common denominator of basic civility being maintained is simply not enough for quality moderation, where a qualitative judgment has to be made. There are many examples, where moderators have let go of posts that call for “execution” of Congress leaders, the word traitor is used as if it is a speeding ticket, instances where moderators have openly questioned someone’s “moral compass” for holding a view, posters asking for open sectarian divisions and loyalty tests, and moderators allowing a thread going OT, even when a poster says please stay on topic to some members. What good then is “reporting” a post and members like me, do not like to report things in the first place. The few times I have, I have always declared so.

The suggestion by some that GDF protections are needed as “free speech” is stifled in India to a degree that such an act is necessary is unsubstantiated. To me it reeks of bigotry and ignorance being used as a mask to hide at best frustration with the current political order and at worst a subtle attempt to uproot the edifices of the state. If as some posts suggest that GDF being hidden is needed because we are hiding something from the state, it is a serious matter to ponder over and posters like me will ask, if I want to be associated with such a forum.

There are dime a dozen forums and outlets to discuss political and partisan and sectarian bigoted views. If BRF simply succumbs to this loud pressure - albeit from a minority IMO, it will not have any uniqueness left to it. Moderation just for civil tones is not enough the purpose at the minimum should be to encourage “quality” discussions and informed views – regardless of the view held – except for some very few sacred cows, such as the unity and integrity of the nation, which belongs to every Indian citizen.

Crowd sourcing does not mean quality cannot be maintained. It has been done on the board earlier, albeit from a narrow military prism. Now on to some specific suggestions.

- I feel overtly political discussions and threads ought to be banned and the rules of the forum enforced – without bias or favor
- No hidden forums
- Feel that moderators should be Indian citizens and a majority (2/3) should be Indian residents
- A targeted effort should be made to make the forums more popular and dynamic by including diverse topics that may appeal to various segments of our society. An effort to attract more Indians from India should be in place. Some ideas are to have a dedicated local forum with threads for each state and city with say a population of over 2 million. It will help build sub communities and I think there is a lot of interest in people’s local daily lives that they want to discuss and be informed on.
- Also let us face it, only a limited number of women are really interested in tanks and airplanes (not being sexist, it is a simple fact). Opening specific threads on say social attributes of family, relationships, fashion and also other topics of interest will help attract women. Maybe find a woman moderator for the forum. Similarly go out there, and let us find an Indian Muslim moderator and see how the nature of the forum changes.
- If BRF can move towards upholding a level of quality to its discussions then many other contemporary topics, which are very important but not adequately tracked will attract quality . Parliamentary debates and committee level discussions on bills and issues are not tracked, neither are court judgments – even the Supreme Court’s. Many higher level defense and security issues are not tracked on the forum. There are so much expansion that can be done at all levels.
- Social media integration with the help of blogs, twitter should be easier

Last but not the least. There is no other place on the net yet, that has the diversity and quality and a non-commercial format for exchange of India specific information. I for one would like to preserve this gem and do my part. I have nothing against any admin here and you all in your individual capacity have done all you can. My plead is for you to uphold and preserve what is good. There has to be a way to discuss policy without politics, civilization without communalism, History and traditions without bigotry, Dharma without Sectarianism. If this board has managed to discuss Islamism as a religious theology then maybe some day, we can even discuss political ideology and theory without partisan politics. Elections are around the corner and I do empathize with the difficulty of your task at hand.

KJo
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby KJo » 05 Oct 2013 01:25

I don't see the need to change anything here just to make it comfortable for groups like Americans, women, Muslims, etc. None of these groups change themselves either. They are welcome even now and they have to follow the rules. Why Mandal Commission in here also?

If we do, we will head down the direction of our Govt. Become "sekoolar".

darshhan
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby darshhan » 05 Oct 2013 01:37

KJoishy wrote:I don't see the need to change anything here just to make it comfortable for groups like Americans, women, Muslims, etc. None of these groups change themselves either. They are welcome even now and they have to follow the rules. Why Mandal Commission in here also?

If we do, we will head down the direction of our Govt. Become "sekoolar".


KJoishy ji, Muslims have the first right to bandwidth resources on BRF. How can you question that? I further suggest that Sachaar Committee be reinstituted to probe whether muslims are getting their due on BRF or not.

SaiK
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby SaiK » 05 Oct 2013 01:54

ShauryaT wrote:Just look at the words used even in this feedback thread, where words like "burqa" are used - a word used in context of secularism, which in India has an association with minorities - after Modi used that word recently. Are we then surprised that Muslims do not come to Bharat Rakshak?


Sorry to butt into your reply to Suraj.. people call me psyche for saik, are you suggesting that i should take that message and keep away from brf? of course, I am just quoting this example.. we have to be careful in our analysis in conveying the right idioms.

On the secularism, the definitions are wrong. we can contend to keep it away from administrations. I will nod my head for anyone who says, abolish quota, reservation, caste, creed, religion, etc.. and purely govern on the basis of merits. How is that a person belonging to a caste or religion given a special preference? which type of democracy is that? I would say what has been established so far by our seniors and yester-year folks is not necessarily needs to be continued on. WE can take this to secularism thread.. but my feedback is our governance based on this type of secularism is wrong.. and heading in the wrong direction. We should move away from it, and focus on economic status of citizens, and provide them a quota system on that basis.

Your other points are pretty valid. nice post.. but a lot to taken at tradeoff value.
Last edited by SaiK on 05 Oct 2013 01:58, edited 1 time in total.

Suraj
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby Suraj » 05 Oct 2013 01:54

darshhan: As a matter of courtesy we do not like to warn or restrain people for emotional posts made here in this thread on forum policy, but I advise you to delete your post.

Karan M
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby Karan M » 05 Oct 2013 02:03

The repeated targeting of Ramana apart - which seems to be just another example of picking any one mod from the team who participates across discussions and hold him responsible for all grievances real or imagined, ( a severely flawed method IMHO), the rest is also incredible.

Shaurya T wrote:- Also let us face it, only a limited number of women are really interested in tanks and airplanes (not being sexist, it is a simple fact). Opening specific threads on say social attributes of family, relationships, fashion and also other topics of interest will help attract women. Maybe find a woman moderator for the forum. Similarly go out there, and let us find an Indian Muslim moderator and see how the nature of the forum changes.


Wow, just wow. Threads on social attributes of relationships, fashions? Is there a shortage of such "forums" on the internet? Last I checked, there were a zillion forums like that. This is a strat & defence affairs forum & now after bemoaning its quality drop, this is the method suggested.

"Go out there and find an Indian muslim moderator", as versus somebody who becomes a mod based on merit after contributing to the forum? So now religion counts as versus competence?

What is this but the same old reservation/ x%/y% division stuff that has caused so much grief to India already, and now the forum must suffer this too.

Mahendra
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby Mahendra » 05 Oct 2013 02:18

Just make Negi an adminullah, give him 2 batlis and access to the ban button, doodh ka doodh and paani ka paani ho jayega

This umbrage over the use of the word burqah is secular over-analysis . There is no truth in the assertion that muslims are not welcome on BRF, in fact Indian muslims would be treated with kid gloves. It aint our fault that the only muslims who seem to register on BRF are from across the border and have names like Shaheen, Ghauri and Attacker

negi
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby negi » 05 Oct 2013 02:23

We should have a thread on the lines of Kanchipuram silk vs Chanderi Silk or may be how to drape a organdy cotton saree around the waist and a dummies guide to making a perfect pallu, technical aspects of weight of the key bunch (RB and MahulR need to be tasked to calibrate a weighing machine for this) to be tied to a Bangla style saree's pallu needs to be given special attention may be it's a perfect SRR/BRM material; this will definitely attract the fairer sex to BRF.
Last edited by negi on 05 Oct 2013 02:37, edited 1 time in total.

Gus
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby Gus » 05 Oct 2013 02:36

check out some ladies only forums, like indusladies.com etc (no i don't hang out there). I don't think ladies can survive in brf. i can think of only one left in brf.

Karan M
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby Karan M » 05 Oct 2013 02:38

Ok, too good:

"Just make Negi an adminullah, give him 2 batlis and access to the ban button, doodh ka doodh and paani ka paani ho jayega" :lol:

"check out some ladies only forums, like indusladies.com etc (no i don't hang out there)." :lol:

But on a serious note arent there are several women on BRF (I think), judging by their usernames (could be mistaken)..

negi
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby negi » 05 Oct 2013 02:43

Mahendra wrote:Just make Negi an adminullah, give him 2 batlis and access to the ban button, doodh ka doodh and paani ka paani ho jayega .

Once I asked Bredators to show me the ban button just for kicks you know, Archan posted a screen grab of the button with my handle in the drop-down. :mrgreen: :oops:

Waise yeah give me 2 bottles I promise to not post for a period long enough to give Mods some much needed respite. :D

SaiK
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby SaiK » 05 Oct 2013 03:33

guys, please don't cross the yellow sea on the dehati lines.

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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby ramana » 05 Oct 2013 03:47

Suraj, Its feedback thread right? If we ask darshann to delete it will upset even more folks here and elsewhere. 8)
So let it stay as feedback.

Good thread so far for it shows a lot of pent-up rage/angst. Some of it genuine and rest playing to gallery.
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Err Islamism is not a religious theology. Its political creed that enforces Islam as the personal and state religion. Islam is the religious theology.
for example : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism

I guess one is reading only the first letters and eyes glaze over.

So sorry that all these years spent trying to educate has been futile.

Vayutuvan
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby Vayutuvan » 05 Oct 2013 03:48

I would like to draw the attention of poster ShauryaT to the following. Thanks

viewtopic.php?p=1521651#p1521651

brihaspati
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby brihaspati » 05 Oct 2013 04:43

ShauryaT ji,
I am not so sure that onlee a certain section of posters are loud/abusive and discount factuals. I have come across the most intense personally abusive word usage from people who coincidentally also have a posturing of being anti-communal. The same group also do not like when "facts" are posted about situations/incidents/persons who are deemed to be iconic of their claimed anti-communal belief system. As if mere pointing out counter-factuals to almost semi-divine/semi-religious mythology about individuals/leaders/religions/near-past events that shaped and continue to shape what we are now as a state and a nation, is a personal abuse against idols and their supposed divine graces - and therefore I had to be attacked with personal abuse.

When repeatedly pointed out - I sometimes got responses with the sense - "what the f*** can you do to stop me - I will continue to be abusive" and always the pretension that the abuse against me started in response to some perceived abuse to some icon.

I have not so far joined in this debate about where and how the forum should evolve into or which mod should be replaced or how they should behave. As far as I remember, I have only reported one post - because it appeared as a direct physical threat and that too in the very early days of my being on the forum. Subsequently even on worse phraseology, I have not reported anyone. I personally feel that debates can go on even through abuses, and I have seen much worse in real life to be shaken to any significant degree by the level to which some discussions on the forum can sink to. As kids, we settled our differences among ourselves and whoever ran to snitch at parents or teacher's door might win a temporary victory but would be long term persona-non-grata within the big-bad-polity-of-kiddidom. So I am no so sure that excessive moderation to tone down perceptions of abuse - is needed. Abusers make more errors of gauging public and group sentiments and they typically lose out where stable non-criminal-tendency adult groups are concerned.

If there has been any change of direction in sentiments and feelings where religious feelings/assessments and politics are concerned - then it seems so because, perhaps previously the tenor of discussions were heavily biased in the other direction.

And my experience of the subsequent debates has overall been a predominant sense of personally abusive, fact dismissive, and where not feasible to dismiss, urging/hinting/appealing-to-higher-authority for suppression of further discussion fearing greater exposure perhaps of weaknesses in their theory and claims - tendencies from people who claim to uphold non-communal/neutral/centrist positions.

I think one subtle line of argument that has been pushed so far - is an attempt to paint certain schools of thought as being "loud" and "therefore predominant", and which repels desired for voices - and which therefore need to be suppressed or cut-down-in-claimed-influence by authority intervention. My impression is that actually the critics were equally and often louder and more aggressive than the group they are trying to paint as the "thought-criminals" of BR, but they simply lost out over facts.

You can look at many of my debates with persistent "opponents" - and what I am saying should become amply clear.

shiv
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby shiv » 05 Oct 2013 07:56

Admin control implies that admins are controlling something.

Exactly what is being controlled by admins?

If BRF has gradually evolved to exclude certain technical/informed military views and has changed into a vibrant forum for political discussions where some political views happen to dominate because of their wild and wide popularity everywhere else, can admins say that they are not responsible for this change? If they are not responsible for this change what have they been doing? The admins surely are there to do something. What is that something? What something have admins been doing while BRF evolved and changed into something different?

If admins are not responsible for changes, good or bad, what are they responsible for?

My personal view is that admins have overseen this change by acts of omission and commission. I can say who omitted what and who committed what but that would not be seen as desirable feedback by all. Admins certainly must shoulder responsibility for the change and must not pretend that they did nothing and that BRF members brought about change. If they did nothing they are not needed. Get rid of all admins and have an unmoderated forum. Forum members are mature enough to handle discussions without a father figure.

member_23455
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby member_23455 » 05 Oct 2013 08:19

shiv wrote:
RajitO wrote:But where I am with the Mods is that I don't see them being able to influence quality of BRF.


Would you or anyone else be able to hazard a guess as to exactly what the mods are influencing on BRF? Two of the best forums I belong to are unmoderated forums ( both are private.)

If the posters are the people who influence the forum and the mods have no role, the mods are unnecessary.


Since the unmoderated forums are private and I have never been I cannot hazard a guess unless it was a rhetorical one and never required an answer. :)

The mods are unnecessary? No...because without them things would deteriorate even further! But if the task is to improve quality of discussions, then posters have to step up to the plate.

Vayutuvan
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby Vayutuvan » 05 Oct 2013 08:21

I have a few questions for admins in light of poster ShauryaT's excellent post (as that poster had been quite prolific and not unreasonable and seems to have some influence with Indian defense establishment - just my impression but what do I - a vilage idiot - know the high falutin' Indian constitutional matters? but I digress).

1. Is there a place for non-Indians?
2. If so, who are eligible? PIO card holders? OCI card holders? If they have to be born in India, would an affidavit do or we have to produce Birth Cert?
3. Would their posting rights be curtailed in some way? Would the limits be something like if they exceed 2/3, 1/3, or 1/6 of the least prolific proven Indian Citizen's posts, they would then follow the least prolific Indian poster? Would it be a function of their religion? If so, does it have to be certified by a religious authority? Caste privileges? North/South privileges? Which state they hail from? Would skin color be a consideration? Gender? sexual preference?
4. Would they be moderated only by the non-resident Indian admins, resident Indian admins, or both? Would some weightage be assigned to the warnings? Non-resident admin warnings are weighted lower or higher than the the resident admins? If so, what is the split?
5. How does each member prove her citizenship/PIO/OCI status? Scan and sendi the documents or need to be notarized at the local consulate? Where should they send these documents? If they are going to be double-encrypted, would BRF or admins publish their public keys? Which certifying authority BRF is going to use?

If poster ShauryaT is willing to write a document to help out the admins, I will be more than happy to help poster ShauryaT out as and when I find time. I hope poster ShauryaT accepts the offer.

I will add more questions as and when I think of them.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 05 Oct 2013 08:24, edited 2 times in total.

shiv
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby shiv » 05 Oct 2013 08:21

In the business of forum administration, the act of NOT curbing or cracking down on certain impassioned posts while making gentle "friendly" warnings to people who make certain other impassioned posts are acts of commission and omission that masquerade as admin benevolence and tolerance. The admin who acts with a formal warning is called a jihadi, or becomes unpopular. He who does not act becomes popular as a "mild" admin even as he gently nudges the forum towards certain viewpoints using little hints, winks and isharas. Like PV Narasimha Rao, not making a decision about certain things is also a decision.

The collective end result of these subtle non policies over several years has made BR what it is today.

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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby Sanku » 05 Oct 2013 16:09

shiv wrote:The collective end result of these subtle non policies over several years has made BR what it is today.


Could it just be that the process of osmosis really exists and moderators can be no more than a semi-permeable membrane ?

YOU want, BRF to be a particular type of place, based on what I see here, however clearly your views are in minority in the demographic which inhabits the web forums.

Why should the role of administration be to make the forum what some of the minority members want? Especially those who have failed to have their POV established (mostly because they were plain wrong) -- is the sort of "save my pov since I am a minority" the sort of technique that works?

Perhaps need to figure out why they are in a minority in a nationalist grouping instead of blaming others?

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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby Raja Bose » 05 Oct 2013 20:01

Karan M wrote:But on a serious note arent there are several women on BRF (I think), judging by their usernames (could be mistaken)..


There we go again, let the speculation that vina is a lady start once again! :rotfl:

---

ramana sir, got your ekhat. Will call after this weekend's running business is over.

shiv
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby shiv » 05 Oct 2013 21:48

Sanku wrote:
Why should the role of administration be to make the forum what some of the minority members want?

Sanku sir. I respect your valuable and enlightened views greatly, but I am not asking moderators to do anything. I am now asking them to stop moderating. The forum will take care of itself. Its current biased and decrepit state is because of biased moderation based on osmosis of only some views. It is definitely semi permeable - as you point out. That is why all views are not represented. Only some. And people who hold those views are comfortable and cosy. There is probably no insight that other viewpoints can exist. Rigidity and satisfaction with everything is the order of the day - the picture of a truly happy and contented family that is exactly where it should be and does not need to go anywhere.

The downside of what I am saying is that many people who are comfortable and cosy now may get upset if things change. But I do not foresee any great changes in BRF. BRF is heading down a one way street as it has been for a few years now. I have given my feedback about the forum and will continue to say what I strongly about.

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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby Rahul M » 05 Oct 2013 22:02

err, if a completely unmoderated discussion forum with unrestricted access is the need of the day, peepul already have FB or the rediff comments section. what's the need of BR ?

Vayutuvan
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby Vayutuvan » 05 Oct 2013 22:03

Shiv ji, could you please talk about poster ShauryaT's proposal? (if you wish that is) I am asking this because what that poster says is almost exactly the opposite of what you want to happen but both of you are unhappy with the forum. Does that mean the forum is right in the center with some periodic small tilts to the right and left? Just law of large numbers and all that. Should we be asking for is to some how reduce the variance? There are some here who know what Ito's integral is, I am sure. that said I think it is not desirable. But it is just me. Forum will go where it wants.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 05 Oct 2013 22:37, edited 1 time in total.

SaiK
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby SaiK » 05 Oct 2013 22:33

Rahul M wrote:err, if a completely unmoderated discussion forum with unrestricted access is the need of the day, peepul already have FB or the rediff comments section. what's the need of BR ?

there are better places to give them business if one wants to get paid services and basic services as free.. better websites are wordpress and blogspot to name a few.

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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby Sanku » 05 Oct 2013 22:58

shiv wrote:Sanku sir. I respect your valuable and enlightened views greatly, but I am not asking moderators to do anything. I am now asking them to stop moderating.


Not doing anything?

Which according to you yourself is doing something, just two posts above.

My personal view is that admins have overseen this change by acts of omission and commission. I can say who omitted what and who committed what but that would not be seen as desirable feedback by all.


The harder you try, the more you tie yourself in knots sir -- and as I said before, if you think that it is your rules, that have been continued and brought the forum "down" how about starting to undo the main damages that you yourself brought about?

Perhaps some one will take you at face value.

shiv
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby shiv » 05 Oct 2013 23:10

matrimc wrote:Shiv ji, could you please talk about poster ShauryaT's proposal? (if you wish?) I am asking this because what that poster says almost exactly opposite of what you want to happen but both of you are unhappy with the forum. Does that mean the forum is right in the center with some periodic small tilts to the right and left? Just law of large numbers and all that. Should we be asking for is to some how reduce the variance? There are some here who know what Ito's integral is, I am sure. that said I think it is not desirable. But it is just me. Forum will go where it wants.

Actually Shaurya and I are dissatisfied about different things although the genesis is the same.

Shaurya's statement about '“non-moderating” approach and not fully enforcing the rules of the forum, high tolerance for partisan political and sectarian and communal views of many members are worded far better than I could have done and I agree wholly. But the issues have affected different aspects of the forum in different ways. My quibble has been the degeneration of the military forum simply because there are some things that cannot have a political explanation - or even if they have a political aspect there is often a technological/technical aspect. The people who speak about those things have been driven out of BRF by the one track political blame game that plays out on every thread, lifting clever quotes and acronyms coined on other threads.

Shaurya talks of the political biases of the forum. My personal feeling is that politics is a subject that requires a free for all discussion. If some parties are protected, their views will dominate. Once politics is in, moderation should not be there at all, because politics means blaming anyone who disagrees. A moderator cannot disagree. Moderators who disagree with the wording or post of a purported BJP viewpoint will instantly be accused of being Sekoolar. The moderator is forced to take a stand. Moderation is no use. A free for all is better. The idea that something is protected in GDF from India's lack of freedom is nonsense in my view. GDF has a very Indian sense of morality. Where is the sex discussion? Moderators agree to political discussions but pjornography is not allowed. If people need to go elsewhere for that it only means that moderation selectively encourages some things in GDF making some convenient excuses for doing so.

I doubt if BRF will get the kind of moderation that Shaurya recommends, though most of his ideas are well intended. Banning political discussions is touted on BRF as banning Hindutva. It won't happen. The current bunch of moderators on BRF are not going to be able to do anything about this - it's too late unless the owners close down the forums in disgust

His post about more Indian residents and not NRI's is a very interesting point that I would like to discuss separately with him elsewhere. He seems to have noticed as I have that a lot of posts are made from the viewpoint of laws, rights and realities of Indians living abroad. But this is not a BRF only issue. I have seen the same problem in an alumni forum and in other fora. I think it is a function of where the internet started and which residents got in first and in the largest numbers. For Internet fora regarding Indian issues, Indian Americans got in first and in the largest numbers and many discussions end up being their views based on their experiences. This will change as Indians enter in larger numbers but the changes will be seen in Twitter and Facebook first because Indians are skipping the PC/Laptop phase and moving into mobile phone/tablet phase. Resident Indians are going to appear in the largest numbers on Facebook and Twitter, Not BRF.

Quite apart from BRF I have discovered that Indian newbies are often "ragged" or told off for poor grammar or SMS language. With the mass of Indians getting on the net being poor in English - BRF will never be the place where they will express themselves. But Shaurya has some exciting ideas. I wonder if the future will have people expressing their views in words either as videos or audios. That way the writing restriction will be gone. But that won't be BRf unless it is specifically encouraged and a separate thread started for members to speak their views as audio files or video files.

shiv
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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby shiv » 05 Oct 2013 23:11

Sanku wrote:Perhaps some one will take you at face value.

Thank you for your good wishes Sanku sir. And thank you for reading what I write. I have noted what you want me to do. But you know that i will say what I want. Not what you want no matter how many times you repeat what gets you worked up. Tough no?

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Re: BR Forum Feedback

Postby Sanku » 05 Oct 2013 23:38

shiv wrote:
Sanku wrote:Perhaps some one will take you at face value.

Thank you for your good wishes Sanku sir. And thank you for reading what I write. I have noted what you want me to do. But you know that i will say what I want. Not what you want no matter how many times you repeat what gets you worked up. Tough no?


No not really, not tough. The word that comes to my mind is different. And like you, I too will keep speaking. I believe you can believe that about me.

shiv wrote: The people who speak about those things have been driven out of BRF by the one track political blame game that plays out on every thread, lifting clever quotes and acronyms coined on other threads.


:rotfl:

How touching. As I said, it was all right as long as you did it to the voices you didnt want around isnt it? Now that the voice of the mainstream is heard in what you considered your "fiefdom" it is not all that great?


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