Indian Interests

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Indian Interests

Postby archan » 08 Jan 2010 02:05

People were missing this thread, so here it is. Now it is up to the regular contributors to try and keep the thread within the limits of its scope. Please report OT posts and do not respond to them. I will check in on and off but some mature postors have to help the mods for the benefit of the forum. Post away.

Link to the last page of previous iteration viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3709&start=1280

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 08 Jan 2010 09:38

Going through various comments in whatever is left of the previois versions of this thread, and related other posts, it struck me that a whole lot of issues were being proposed and discussed in "Indian interests" about community perspectives without referring to any available data. There appears to be a lot of talk on "divisive agendas". In keeping with the security angle, we can actually look at an important indicator of inter-community relationship that affects internal as well as external security and is extensively studied sociologically. These are so-called "reported" "communal conflicts/riots".

Data on these are a good indicator of the extent of "divisiveness' and under what context/background/politics it increases or decreases. Here is a small sample.

Table 1.1, p 5, Sociology of Communal Violence, by Dharm Veer Mehta. Anmol Publ, Pvt Ltd, 1998.

Magnitude of Communal Violence
Year/ no. of incidents/Killed/Injured
1969 519 674 2977
1970 521 298 1723
1971 321 103 1330
1972 240 70 1207
1973 242 72 1550
1974 248 87 1266
1975 205 33 962
1976 169 39 794
1977 188 36 1122
1978 230 110 1853
1979 304 261 2379
1980 421 372 2691

As Mehta mentions, there was a marked rise in the intensity and number of riots from 1964-72. There is a dip however peaking in 1976. thereafter it starts increasing again.

Several interesting observations are immediate. I have chosen this period because it marks significant twists and turns in Indian politics and creation of new Indian political mythology.

(1) Why does the marked decrease coincide with the height of the "Emergency"?
(2) Why are the figures so high in 1969, when there is no "Hindu Right" in electoral horizon with any significant impact?
(3) Why do they start increasing again from the waning of the Emergency, but do not slow down in the entire period between 77-80 when IG is essentially returning back to power? (assuming that legitimization of the "Right" electorally increases such conflict - growing re-acceptance of IG should have countered and compensated?)
(4) If such internal conflicts are sponsored entirely by external agents, say TSP, who does it to distract attention and anger of its own people away towards the "foreign devil" - why do such conflicts decrease when TSP is most likely to use such an excuse? Especially after being "defeated" in the 71 war?
(5) Why did conflicts steadily decrease as the Congress weakened centrally in the post-Nehru years leading to the splits of late 60's?

In reality the riot data, if explored against reasonable factor analysis - contradicts a lot of assumptions that have been casually made here.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby arnab » 08 Jan 2010 11:40

Review of Ashutosh Vrashney's book - "Ethnic Conflict and Civic Life: Hindus and Muslims in India" (2002), Yale University

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ ... l-violence

Using data for a 45-year period from 1950 to 1995 -- that is, covering most of independent India's history -- he shows that the vast majority of communal riots have been concentrated in 4 of India's 28 states, located in the northern, western, and eastern parts of the country.


In fact, 70 percent of Hindu-Muslim violence takes place in only 30 out of India's more than 400 cities. More startling still, just 8 cities are responsible for almost half of all deaths in Hindu-Muslim riots.


India's three largest and most cosmopolitan cities are among the eight that top Varshney's list of "riot-prone" areas -- the nation's capital, New Delhi, and the influential state capitals Mumbai (Bombay) and Kolkata (Calcutta). Each has a population of over 12 million, and together they are linchpins of India's economy.


Each of the eight cities that top Varshney's list has a large middle class, a high literacy rate, and an old and established Muslim minority. Two of them are in Gujarat, and it is a testimony to the predictive value of Varshney's data that he ranks Ahmedabad, Gujarat's financial capital, as the second most riot-prone city in India. (Mumbai leads the death count.)


Yet the greatest conundrum of all might well be the role that religious organizations play in sparking or dampening Hindu-Muslim tension. Unlike the Christian and Muslim religious leaders who added to communal conflict in Bosnia, or the priests and nuns who were implicated in genocide in Rwanda, most Hindu religious leaders shun the Ram temple campaign. At one of Hinduism's largest and most important religious festivals, the Kumbh Mela, Hindu priests expelled advocates of the Ram temple campaign.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby AdityaM » 08 Jan 2010 11:51

what is the interest rate on fixed deposits being offered by banks in india?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby viveks » 08 Jan 2010 12:06


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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ShauryaT » 08 Jan 2010 17:54

AdityaM wrote:what is the interest rate on fixed deposits being offered by banks in india?
Is this the right place for this thread? Do we want this thread to be about "community relations"? The charter for this thread is "strategic" "high level" "Geo Political" "National Security Related" issues, which highlight certain Indian perspectives, that do not have a focused thread.

Please let us not bring in community relations under that charter, even if it deserves its own space. Let us not abuse the broad title of this thread. TIA.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 08 Jan 2010 18:57

ShauryaT wrote
AdityaM wrote:
what is the interest rate on fixed deposits being offered by banks in india?

Is this the right place for this thread? Do we want this thread to be about "community relations"? The charter for this thread is "strategic" "high level" "Geo Political" "National Security Related" issues, which highlight certain Indian perspectives, that do not have a focused thread.

Please let us not bring in community relations under that charter, even if it deserves its own space. Let us not abuse the broad title of this thread. TIA.
AdityaM wrote:what is the interest rate on fixed deposits being offered by banks in india?
Is this the right place for this thread? Do we want this thread to be about "community relations"? The charter for this thread is "strategic" "high level" "Geo Political" "National Security Related" issues, which highlight certain Indian perspectives, that do not have a focused thread.

Please let us not bring in community relations under that charter, even if it deserves its own space. Let us not abuse the broad title of this thread. TIA.


I had put up the post with actual "data" and contextual questions - firmly stressing the "security" angle. I have not extended that discussion into all other aspects of inter-community relations. If you look at previous version of this thread, plenty of statements had been made ascribing opinions/motivations/agendas to individuals or groups as to how or why they painted communities in certain lights. In none of that I could find any factual data being referred to. No quantification whatsoever.

The taint of "riots/communal conflicts" as endemic in India is politically, strategically important. It is used to motivate and justify hostile forces against India, and is also used as a political weapon. It has important internal security aspects which have wide ranging impact on governance, policing and response systems.

I will strictly go by quantitative data available. These are available most extensively only about "actual incidents of conflict" and some of it are partly in the public domain (with indirect restrictions). I would like to constrain any discussion on this strictly to such available databases and resources and not on personal opinions as to existence or non-existence of "divisive" agendas in individuals or groups we take fancy to - that supposedly destroy the peace and security of the nation.

There are well-established and practised methods of systematically analyzing such numerical data. I will check how much of the various databases I have access to can be quoted in a public forum like this because of the obvious "sensitivity" considerations that may go against many of the blanket assumptions and dogmas I have seen so far.

Varshney has collated one of the largest databases on this, but I started with Mehta - as he was one of the starters of modern quantitative analysis on the subject from India, with no obvious leanings to any presumptive ideological hangovers on the "Left" "Centre" or the "Right".

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ShauryaT » 08 Jan 2010 20:11

brihaspati wrote: It has important internal security aspects which have wide ranging impact on governance, policing and response systems.
We have an internal security thread and a governance thread.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ShauryaT » 08 Jan 2010 20:38

ldev wrote:
Your long bhashan does not change one basic fact. In the present situation where the cutting edge of India's armed forces relies on critical components or entire products from abroad, India has to pay for those products in foreign exchange. And foreign exchange always forces a comparison of currencies and values. And that means savings in some other countries currencies. And if you do not have that you do not become a global power. No country has become a global power based on somebody else's currency. The Chinese are trying very hard, and its a huge gamble, but then the Chinese are always big gamblers. I dont think that the Government of India will ever gamble with the future of India the way the Chinese government gambles with the future of their people. In the absence of that, economic growth has to come first to pay for the armed forces.
The issue as BK notes is not about being a global power or a super power but about being a great power. Meaning: A country that dominates its sphere of influence, protects its national interests, as it defines them and uses its comprehensive national strength in pursuit of those interests. The argument is military power is essential and an irreplaceable fact to be a great power - economic power alone is not enough. Someone has to pay for the military, so towards that extent economic power is essential to become a great power. So, let us stick to this narrative and present arguments in the context above, if there are any.

The following is a chronological list of the use of US military forces, in pursuit of her national interests, as they defined them. Readers can go through the above to come to their own conclusions.

The way I read US history in this context is from its very inception, there was a paranoia of not being dragged into the wars and fights of continental Europe. This sense of paranoia to not get invloved persisted till the second world war. Coupled with the fact that throughout 1800-1900, there was a continental sized nation to exploit and build upon along with two huge continents - as its exclusive sphere of influence, was enough for the US in that period to protect and build, as it deemed fit. The fact that they did not deem it necessary to compete with European powers and seek to dominate the world, was a judicious and prudent use of its national resources to protect and build its own nation and dominate its self defined sphere of influence, at that time.

The fact that no other world power, seriously challenged or when challenged were defeated, is a clear vindication of this national will along with a recognition that the strength of the US forces, along with national resources and capabilities were enough to deter a serious challenge from anyone. It will be naive to call this inherent national strength and resolve to being "lucky".

To that degree, it is moot to compare, when, where and how did the US fare, when compared with other nations. The fact is the US did use her military resources, to further her national interests, as a great power should do. As these interests changed, so did her will to devote the requisite resources. It is the ability to preserve and pursue these interests, that make her a great power. Exactly when did she become the largest naval power (in an earlier post, I said, if I recall correctly she became the largest naval power around the turn of the century, I recalled wrongly, this again from memory was in the early 30's) or the largest economy is moot.

A great power is one that uses her national resources in pursuit of national interests.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ShauryaT » 08 Jan 2010 20:44

X-Post.


Understanding unutilised defence expenditure


A detailed breakdown for defence budget of 2009-10 will be made available only after the release of a parliamentary defence committee report that reviews the grant of demands for defence ministry for 2010-11. But when the finance minister presents his next union budget to the parliament in March this year, watch out for the RE figure for capital expenditure on defence for 2009-10 [Demand number 27 of the Finance bill]. If that figure be X crore, then (54824 — X) crore will be the amount returned from the allocation of 19118.74 crore for new schemes in 2009-10. Let us see whether the figure will be less than 38 percent this year or more.


One thing that was useful to avoid this issue, was a non-expirable fund for capital acquisitions. Something that Jaswant Singh constituted in the last term of the NDA government. I think it was for 25,000 crores. The idea being that this fund will not expire annually and can be used to acquire capital assets. The subsequent UPA did not like the idea and did not continue that fund.

One realization is, our defense spending would come down to about 2% of our GDP. Imagine, 2% for country like India, seeking to be a great power, with no real allies and no one's chatra chaya, with our peaceful neighbors.

Another thing is this very same unused portion is likely then used in other areas of government expenditure, such as subsidies and other wastes, increasing our deficit, so a double whammy.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 08 Jan 2010 22:01

ShauryaT wrote
We have an internal security thread and a governance thread.

Of course we have, but then the same topic will have to be discussed across threads. I said it has security and other impacts and therefore appropriate. Otherwise, for example, all discussions about TSP have to be moved to "internal security" and "governance" thread - for TSP has impact on both items and pretty seriously as discussions point out in various threads.

I would like to see more quantitative support for opinions expressed on such "sensitive" issues.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby archan » 08 Jan 2010 22:25

AdityaM wrote:what is the interest rate on fixed deposits being offered by banks in india?

Should I ban him for this? :P Oh let's put it in the "failed-attempts-at-humor" folder and forget it. ShauryaT now you see why I was unsure about the threat title? now please have long discussions with brihaspati on what is considered Indian interest and what is not. :twisted:

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 08 Jan 2010 22:48

archan wrote:
AdityaM wrote:what is the interest rate on fixed deposits being offered by banks in india?

Should I ban him for this? :P Oh let's put it in the "failed-attempts-at-humor" folder and forget it. ShauryaT now you see why I was unsure about the threat title? now please have long discussions with brihaspati on what is considered Indian interest and what is not. :twisted:


I think he is trolling. I dont want the thread disrupted by failed attempts at levity. There is a history of threads being derialed by such attempts. I think such attempts should be considered in the members' history.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ShauryaT » 08 Jan 2010 22:57

The ambiguity is inherent in people's perceptions of what constitutes high level strategic items and so is the need for a thread of such a nature, or these items do not get captured. The thread has been around for at least a couple of years and many knew the "sense" of what this thread was about, until the past couple of weeks. If changing the title, defines it better, by all means, we should do it.

Now if someone insists on making local issues or brings in NRI issues and deems them to be high level strategic items of Indian interests into the thread, I guess it calls for moderation. Ramana used to moderate this thread actively.

Added: As he still does ^^^

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Chandragupta » 09 Jan 2010 18:27

***pointless and Off Topic***
Last edited by archan on 10 Jan 2010 10:33, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: next time please read what the thread topic is about.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby archan » 09 Jan 2010 21:34

There we go again. I am going to start warning people for OT posts that create a precedence and facilitate thread derailment. Chandragupta ji I will give you a chance to delete your post, failing with, I shall do it but with one hilal in your honor. Please note that I locked this thread due to posts like above and it caused disappointment to the regular users of this thread. The thread, as described by ShauryaT:
The charter for this thread is "strategic" "high level" "Geo Political" "National Security Related" issues, which highlight certain Indian perspectives

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ldev » 10 Jan 2010 05:56

ShauryaT,

You are correct. It is not a question of either or military or economic power but both. A country has to have the ability to pay for its military i.e. its military ambitions are directly corelated to its ability to pay for them.

The US had huge advantages during its nascent years from a military standpoint. Just look at the link you have posted in your post. India in contrast had an independence which was a baptism by fire. And add to that, India has been under relentless pressure ever since from Pakistan and China who are both immediate neighbours. 17 years after India gained independence China became a nuclear power. 17 years in the course of the early years of US history as an independent nation were a blip in time where technological progress, especially which impacted US national interests, moved at a snail's pace.

So the challenges facing India are very different and if I may say so, vastly more complicated. There are external security, internal security, access to energy, water, health and education among the few challenges that I can think off the top of my head. Coming up with realistic plans for dealing with each of these vast areas could be defined as critical Indian interests IMO. The ability to defend national interests is not a function of just the right military hardware nor for a nation such as India the will to use it. From its independence, India has followed certain norms in responding to external challenges. A responsible nation cannot upend those norms overnight without thinking of all consequences. National power is not something which one can judge in isolation. It is always in comparison to other nations. India can swat the Seychelles out of the Indian Ocean. It has to have a different strategy for dealing with Pakistan and China. One could argue that even a doubling of the Indian defence budget may not allow India to project an untramelled national will in its immediate neighbourhood - though it may make give it more options.

That business about US naval power was nothing more than a pi**ing match bred out of frustration.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RamaY » 10 Jan 2010 06:11

^^^

In addition to that, it might be purposeful to find environmentally-conscious growth objectives and strategies for India. I doubt India (1.16B and growing population) can sustain western-style life habits/styles and associated energy/food needs. The objective is to find renewable medium for each one of India's growth needs. It applies to all aspects of Indian Interests.

Geographical Borders - Any contraction in Indian geographical area will increase the stress on natural resources.
Water Resources - To ensure Renewable water resources need to safe guard himalayan catchment/watershed areas.
Food production - Efficient use of limited arable areas.
Forests - Controlling mindless deforestration
Fisheries - Renewable resources
Energy

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby svinayak » 10 Jan 2010 07:44

RamaY wrote:^^^

In addition to that, it might be purposeful to find environmentally-conscious growth objectives and strategies for India. I doubt India (1.16B and growing population) can sustain western-style life habits/styles and associated energy/food needs. The objective is to find renewable medium for each one of India's growth needs. It applies to all aspects of Indian Interests.

“I’m not talking about becoming happy, I’m just talking about becoming developed. It’s perfectly possible to have high income and be miserable. I’m happier tackling that problem once we have high income, so don’t knock it. It’s also totally possible to be poor and happy. I’m glad there are people trying to make poor people happy but that’s not my job. My job is to make them richer, and I think it’s a sensible thing to do. ”
Montek Singh Ahluwalia

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RamaY » 10 Jan 2010 08:09

Acharya-ji

that makes sense.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby munna » 12 Jan 2010 10:00

negi wrote:You don't need to belong to any school for resolving J&K I think you have taken all this personally . :mrgreen:

Nope sir I wrote this because I tried to bring some new jingos to the forum but they were pushed off before they could even think about posting. As far as I am concerned, I am just a poor guy who holds other things closer to my heart than some paper from a school. It makes no difference to me, but I do know those places make a difference to my countrymen as a lot of policy battles are fought there and we need to ensure that we crowd out all antagonist forces from such places be it universities, companies, markets or institutions. Full spectrum dominance. I hope you understand my point, let no place be off limits and untouchable. Go forth and dominate! :twisted:

Believe me if we have just 10 historians, politicos and other social scientists on the full time job for justification of India's J&K stance I promise that world will believe India to be the aggrieved party unequivocally. Instead we shunt them out and they are taken up by left of centre jholawala circuit. We can do it Negiji just need to broaden our horizons and coalition.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby negi » 12 Jan 2010 10:28

Munna ji the point about scaring or chasing away anyone does not even hold water for

1. The people or group in question out numbers and out classes BRF or the ideology of its members hands down in terms of the visibility of the media/forum , so we aren't chasing no one hell majority of us here are 'toota chappal pahta paijama' types .

2. People who run away or ignore a counter view do it only for three reasons

a. They have more important things to do as the view in question is expressed by a 'nobody' or in a forum of relatively far lower visibility than the one in which former writes/posts .

b. They know they won't be able to counter the opinions as they do not have the FACTs to substantiate their pov .

c. The said counter view might be devoid of facts and only based on empty rhetoric (basically a subset of 'a') , in which case they should be able to easily rebut the claims/views .

I do not know about your friends but BRF at one time had quite a few erudite and serious contributors who at times were taunted as 'dilli billis' but the said gents used to take it in a stride .So all this is more about personal sensitivities don't know if we can do much in this regards . If I were to hazard a guess more than the cliche and other dry remarks your friends might not have found the subject/topics discussed here to their liking or they probably know more than what is posted here.

And please do away with 'sir' :oops:

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ShauryaT » 12 Jan 2010 20:02

A view Point.
An outdated agenda

As the CDS example shows, there is a case for fresh review of national security now.
Most commentators on defence matters in India — especially the ex-military officers — lament the lack of a Chief of Defence Staff [CDS] in India, after it was first proposed by the Group of Ministers in 2001 [see this post to understand the subject]. In its second report[pdf] to the new Lok Sabha, the Parliamentary standing committee on defence has again taken the defence ministry to task for failing to create the CDS till now.

In India, there have been strong reservations among the sister services of the army — the Indian Air Force and the Indian Navy — against the institution of a CDS because of the fears of the army dominating them [see these posts]. Others have also made a cogent case against the appointment of a CDS in India. Their hands are likely to be strengthened by the recent noises from the UK, where the current CDS may be forced to step down early — in favour of an army general — because he is from the air force.

Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, the Chief of the Defence Staff, is expected to be asked to retire earlier than planned to allow one of the two most senior army commanders to take over the role of principal military adviser to the Government.

There is a growing view in Whitehall that a soldier, rather than an airman, should run the Armed Forces up to 2014 — a period when the Army will absorb an increasing amount of the MoD’s resources because of its leading role in the Afghan land war.…The possibility of a change at the top is leading to tensions at the highest level in the Ministry of Defence. The chiefs of the Royal Navy and RAF are understood to be particularly concerned about the prospect of further cuts to their services.[Times]

It has been nearly nine years since the last review of National Security was carried out in India by the Group of Ministers. As noted by the Parliamentary standing committee, many of its recommendations remain unimplemented and those which have been implemented have been done only in letter, but not in spirit. For many defence analysts in the country, these recommendations constitutes an unfinished agenda that ought to be pursued with a missionary zeal. Blinded by their ardent fervour, they tend to overlook the rapid strides made by Indian economy since the last review — and the ensuant developments in polity, society, technology and geopolitics — which underpins the case for initiating a new agenda for reforming and restructuring national security. Moreover, many recommendations in that review are either extraneous to the current security environment or lack requisite political backing and consensus for implementation — the CDS case being a prime example. A fresh review, while culling the extraneous demands, will incorporate the relevant demands from the previous report and bolster the chances of their implementation by providing a new impetus.

Finally, K Subrahmanyam had chaired the Kargil Review Committee which asked for a GoM to review national security in the aftermath of the Kargil conflict. His sensible advise was heeded by the political dispensation at Delhi then. The venerable Mr Subrahmanyam has been at the forefront of those asking for a new Blue Ribbon Commission for Defence now. It is time the present political dispensation at Delhi heeded his clarion call.
And if the government is going to heed this much, it could also listen to The Acorn and request Mr Arun Singh to come down from the hills and take this onerous responsibility. Please.


And the counter view by Brigadier Sahgal.
arun sahgal
January 12th, 2010 at 11:16 am
Hi,
i find your blog extremely interesting and penetrating.
I fully agree with you that CDS concept is outdated and needs review but alas not for reasons mentioned by you.
You talk about “rapid strides made by Indian economy since the last review — and the ensuant developments in polity, society, technology and geopolitics” which necessitate change in thinking?
I will answer this issue indirectly. A study has been launched by George Washington University attempting to analyse among others India as a global power.
In number of seminars and discussions held recently with that group, one of the issue that emerged was that India has no or little strategic thinking in terms of what it means to be a global power or what responsiblities it incurs. In fact dominant narrative was that this is an utopian concept whose time has certainly not come?
What has all this to do with debate on CDS, simple point is that narrative for having an intergared head for the services has not changed. If at all a dangerous trend is emerging which is alluding to “No war syndrome” backed by indian soft power, which is forcing a dangerous draw down on all modernisation plans, leading to dangerous drift within the armed forces. As if it is answer to all our problems ‘accent is increasing on internal security’ which is important but can never be vital for India to become a great power. to quote pakistani GHQ ” we can any day mange the growing terrorist and jihadi threat but can not be oblivious to Indian growing conventional capablity, or the chinese analysis of pro acticve shift in Indian doctrinal thinking to “limited conventional war against the enemy ‘under conditions of nuclear deterrence’. sadly our competitiors are taking military issues more seriously than the opinion shapers in our country. A real pity?????

Link

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby krithivas » 12 Jan 2010 21:56

India talks:
SSridhar wrote:India warns of retaliation
After a series of rocket attacks in Punjab, the Border Security Force has warned that future incidents of hostile fire could invite calibre-for-calibre retaliation across the India-Pakistan border.

Another warning. This time, a calibre-for-calibre return of fire !
Pakistan’s border police, the Rangers, claimed the attack was carried out by non-state actors over whom they had no control, {Fantastic and that seals the case. Period} government sources told The Hindu. However, the sources said, the BSF responded that it was the Rangers’ responsibility to prevent hostile actions — and India would be left with no option but to retaliate if it failed to do so.

World acts:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/13/world/middleeast/13iran.html
PARIS — A remote-controlled bomb attached to a motorcycle killed an Iranian physics professor outside his home in northern Tehran on Tuesday, state media reported, blaming the United States and Israel for the attack.
Nazila Fathi contributed reporting from Toronto.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby JE Menon » 12 Jan 2010 22:52

>>>“I’m not talking about becoming happy, I’m just talking about becoming developed. It’s perfectly possible to have high income and be miserable. I’m happier tackling that problem once we have high income, so don’t knock it. It’s also totally possible to be poor and happy. I’m glad there are people trying to make poor people happy but that’s not my job. My job is to make them richer, and I think it’s a sensible thing to do. ”
Montek Singh Ahluwalia

Thank you for that quote Acharya. I think it is fantastic that a senior Indian bureaucrat can make that comment. Shows a level of hardcore pragmatism that must be admired. I'm not sure there are many countries in the world today where such blunt talk will be appreciated. I'm glad he is batting for our side.

Is the quote from a speech or an interview or something? If so, please share the link or source. I would like to hear/read the whole talk/speech whatever

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby svinayak » 12 Jan 2010 22:58

JE Menon wrote:
Is the quote from a speech or an interview or something? If so, please share the link or source. I would like to hear/read the whole talk/speech whatever

It is there in the economics thread. It is a speech in MIT

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 12 Jan 2010 23:01

munnaji, I am sorry your friends were turned off with BRF and our way of thinking. Hope they find better outlets to support Indian interests even if not here.
Thanks for trying.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby sanjaykumar » 13 Jan 2010 00:43

Ahluwalia's speech is available on the MIT speakers series.

A hugely impressive man. Articulate, intelligent with just a hint of the nastiness possible from India in 10-20 years time thrown in for discerning viewers.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby JE Menon » 13 Jan 2010 14:18

Thanks Acharya.

Nice comment there sanjay :) Let us hope, though, that there will be no nastiness from India even 20 yrs down the line, or ever. The most durable influence is influence of the mind that is welcomed, and therefore undirected or "unplanned" except in the most general way - as in India has nothing to "teach", but if you wish to learn the example is available. Rest assured there will be enough negatives about India that non-Indians will perceive and desire to perceive. It is human nature. There will be enough of this highlighted by non-Indians. The positives will also be highlighted, but it should never be done deliberately by India. When non-Indians are presented with the negatives, but the reality as they individually perceive does not match, they will be obliged to look at India again themselves. When they come to their own conclusions, these non-Indians will be the best ambassadors for India. It is already happening. We must simply exist and do far more good than bad. Influence will then be sought, not imposed. I know that most jingos, including me sometimes, want things faster. But I have reached a general conclusion that this is probably the best way.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 14 Jan 2010 18:17

http://newglobalindian.com/
Outlet for Prabasi Bharatiya people.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby a_kumar » 14 Jan 2010 21:01

X-posting from TSP thread.. Feel free to move to another as needed.
shiv wrote:I believe that we are reaching a stage on this forum where the forum is blind to what is happening in India and has cocooned itself in a cloak of delusion. Too much time is spent on wishing away people and problems with no inkling of the number of people and number of problems that make people think the way they do.

A section of the Indian elite is sitting right here imagining a future for an India they do not know. OT


This became evident to me when I looked back at CBN's failure and YSR's initial success (2004 elections). While anti-incumbency and drought have all contributed to YSR's victory, a major part was that he knew pulse of the people and that the people that mattered in elections thought they had his ear (and they did).

(1) Not just forumites, but a good part of urbanites are afflicted with the same cacoon syndrome. Urbanites in general live amongst so many folks doing menial jobs, but they barely know them or give any basic respect to them.

I wish people knew more about the next person and their story (whether maid or dhobi or auto-driver). When I visit home, its almost like a thick wall has come up between the two worlds. One world "the middle class" employs the help or takes their cab or buys milks/vegies, and other quite populous that offers these services. In most cases the first world talks and discusses in presence of the second world, as if they are invisible. And the story or the mindset of the second group is mostly tucked away from the "middle class". Used to be the time, when we knew the maid and their family so well, I used to often drop by their place as a kid. But now, maids change often, and nobody really knows where they live or their family.

(2) NRIs are even worse. It was revealing to look at one of the voting threads, where a good chunk of posters are from outside India. Now that I am thinking about it, how can an opinion overwhelmingly supported by non-residents give any sense of whats is workable for the common man living in India? The opinions may be appropriate in big picture, but doesn't mean squat on the ground.

IMO, there needs to be a wider conversation between the two worlds. Coming in the way of this is some degree of the feudal mindset that "harbans" was referring to.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 14 Jan 2010 21:45

Well you wont know that if you sit in your club eating toast and jam. And enough loathing for the forum members who are by and large opposite of homily preachers. If you dont like it why are you here?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Jarita » 14 Jan 2010 23:04

Disappointed that India did not send a rescue team to Haiti.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Babu Bihari » 14 Jan 2010 23:15

The "problem" are not the NRIs, it is the RNIs who are a major problem. Most NRIs pine and dream for a strong India. It is a matter of identity, pride and civilizational roots for them. One many not realize this, but stakes are very high for them. If India is no longer an India in current shape, their children and grandchildren will be taunted as children of a failed civilization. And guess who would enjoy most, the Pakis and the Chinese and Churchill would have a good laugh in his grave.

Most NRIs maintain their ties back home in India and in some capacity or the other try to give back and bridge the gap between two classes of haves and have-nots. Be it establishing schools in their/parental village, donation money for Ekal, Shankara etc. It is my observation that the apathy towards their fellow countrymen is more visible amongst the RNIs.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 14 Jan 2010 23:18

Jarita wrote:Disappointed that India did not send a rescue team to Haiti.


China sends aid to haiti

One of first planes to land were from China.

However India provides $1M for emergency relief to Haiti

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby a_kumar » 14 Jan 2010 23:34

Ramana ji, Anything I said about forumites, is as a subset of a larger group!!

And you are correct in that I won't know until "I sit in my club eating toast and jam". One down, so, what other ideas are there? (Added later : Media in its current form and composition doesn't do much.)

I am aware of the contradictions here. On one hand, I have a lot to say about what we have to do or be and on the other hand, I rue that we are disconnected from the people we feel for. I will be the first to admit that dichotomy, but that can't be a reason to be quiet about it.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Jarita » 15 Jan 2010 02:58

ramana wrote:
Jarita wrote:Disappointed that India did not send a rescue team to Haiti.


China sends aid to haiti

One of first planes to land were from China.

However India provides $1M for emergency relief to Haiti




Krishna only knows where the money goes. By now developing countries should know that Aid can mean squat.
The key here is that China is happily helping out in US of A's backyard. There is a message here.
We of all people should be adept in handling natural disasters in 3rd world situations. Infact the developed countries are facing a challenge in Haiti

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ShyamSP » 15 Jan 2010 03:03

Jarita wrote:
ramana wrote:[quote="Jarita"Disappointed that India did not send a rescue team to Haiti./quote]

China sends aid to haiti

One of first planes to land were from China.

However India provides $1M for emergency relief to Haiti[/quote]



Krishna only knows where the money goes. By now developing countries should know that Aid can mean squat.
The key here is that China is happily helping out in US of A's backyard. There is a message here.
We of all people should be adept in handling natural disasters in 3rd world situations. Infact the developed countries are facing a challenge in Haiti[/quote]


RSS does impressive relief work. self-shackled India can't send them there I guess.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 15 Jan 2010 04:00

a_kumar wrote
This became evident to me when I looked back at CBN's failure and YSR's initial success (2004 elections). While anti-incumbency and drought have all contributed to YSR's victory, a major part was that he knew pulse of the people and that the people that mattered in elections thought they had his ear (and they did).


I am always intrigued by such examples as proofs of "closeness" to "people" and "knowing people's pulse". As far as we know Jyoti Basu from WB was a long lasting CM whose campaigns usually drew huge crowds and mammoth rallies. So his electoral success should be taken as reflection of WB people's pulse, and then all the drubbing we give to the so-called "leftist goons" are actually being dished out to "genuine popular feelings". Same goes for shining examples in Bihar, Jharkhand, Haryana, Maharashtra,.....Forumites from Kerala may also add in their take on this electoral success == popular pulse theory.

(1) Not just forumites, but a good part of urbanites are afflicted with the same cacoon syndrome. Urbanites in general live amongst so many folks doing menial jobs, but they barely know them or give any basic respect to them.

I wish people knew more about the next person and their story (whether maid or dhobi or auto-driver). When I visit home, its almost like a thick wall has come up between the two worlds. One world "the middle class" employs the help or takes their cab or buys milks/vegies, and other quite populous that offers these services. In most cases the first world talks and discusses in presence of the second world, as if they are invisible. And the story or the mindset of the second group is mostly tucked away from the "middle class". Used to be the time, when we knew the maid and their family so well, I used to often drop by their place as a kid. But now, maids change often, and nobody really knows where they live or their family.


But I was gaining the impression here that mere residence automatically places an Indian in India into all those "social circles" which helps them be instantaneously aware of the inner workings, aspirations, private viewpoints held by every other Indian! Is that "isolation" just restricted to "urbanites" and does not extend to "rural populations"? So in non-urban rural populations, an individual Indian knows automatically what is going on in different social groups - and more importantly the different "pulses" say even within different clusters in the same village? Or we subconsciously always refer to urbanites to tar and feather for their alleged isolation because we ourselves do not know much beyond urbanites ourselves?

(2) NRIs are even worse. It was revealing to look at one of the voting threads, where a good chunk of posters are from outside India. Now that I am thinking about it, how can an opinion overwhelmingly supported by non-residents give any sense of whats is workable for the common man living in India? The opinions may be appropriate in big picture, but doesn't mean squat on the ground.


This is sadly true. Because we are all non-residents in a way. Even those who think they feel the pulse of India because they are physically present in India. Some people feel they have a greater right to "feel" but what they really do is simply reconfirm myths and false beliefs or social gossip within their intimate social networks. There is a simple test from application of social identity theory. Just sit down and make a list of individuals with whom you are repeatedly in contact over say one year. Then write down as many attributes you think you know about those individuals in your network. The results would be surprising.

There are a lot of assumptions based on which this supposed more sound knowledge in physical residents is claimed for. First that the social prejudices, media propaganda and carefully instilled imagery built up over a lifetime about how and what to "see" in "others" - models of social identities - do not affect in the way we interact, frame our questions, and respond when we think we are communicating with someone not belonging to our immediate, intimate social network. Second we also assume that the "other person's" responses are not guided by awareness on their part of the "social differences". Most "perverted" would be the interpretations when the communication is happening between individuals having a power differential.

Most of those who would be highly aware of this "isolation" in "NRI's are pointing out a real case to be concerned about. But are they sure that their perception of the disconnect of the NRI's is not perhaps based on another exterme of "disconnect"? NRI's appear to be at one extreme of the spectrum of disconnectedness to the "residents" because they themselves are positioned on the opposite extreme of "disconnectedness"? A disconnectedness which is the result of constant bombardment and exposure to the media, educational apparatus, and all the other mechanisms which Noam Chomsky refers to as "manufacture of consent"?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Jarita » 15 Jan 2010 04:08

ShyamSP wrote:[quote="Jarita
However India provides $1M for emergency relief to Haiti




Krishna only knows where the money goes. By now developing countries should know that Aid can mean squat.
The key here is that China is happily helping out in US of A's backyard. There is a message here.
We of all people should be adept in handling natural disasters in 3rd world situations. Infact the developed countries are facing a challenge in Haiti[/quote][/quote][/quote]

RSS does impressive relief work. self-shackled India can't send them there I guess.[/quote][/quote][/quote]


Speak of the Devil :) On that note they are collecting funds for Haiti

http://www.sewausa.org/


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