Indian Interests

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ramana
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 15 Jul 2011 19:58

Return of the prodigal!!!!

Shashi Tharoor says:

Government has no claims on Sri Padmanabhswamy Temple treasure

Looks like his marriage has knocked some sense into him.

Welcome back Shashi!

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Klaus » 15 Jul 2011 20:13

RajeshA wrote:True, but every Indian state would try to emulate Gujarat, and when each state reaches the GDP per capita of Gujarat they too would announce that they have arrived on the scene! It will become a statement of having arrived. It would also push states to compete with each other as well in being able to make that statement.

Every state would be competing to make a statement on its cultural, historical and political contribution to Indian Civilization and State, and they will want to make such statements on the strength of their economies.

So in a way Sardar Vallabhai Patel's statue would invigorate the whole country.


IMHO, seeing the Telengana issue, it is pretty evident that the contract of splitting states on linguistic basis has outlived its utility. The concept is already doing more harm than good.

So, in a way the Iron Man's murti should lead India on the path to sacrifice this regionalism in favor of larger agglomerations, the concept of the rashtra, core and the periphery. If we could find some way of conveying these memes to the vast Indian praja through murti's or other means, we could start seeing some revival.

The strength of Bihar's economy alone cannot make it Magadha of yore, can it?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RajeshA » 15 Jul 2011 20:17

Klaus wrote:The strength of Bihar's economy alone cannot make it Magadha of yore, can it?
Wealth and security allows people to introspect their past!

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Klaus » 15 Jul 2011 20:29

^^^ A few will bring back Vishnugupta and Chandragupta Maurya but the majority is just going to recollect the atrocities they faced at the hands of the British and be satisfied with their current condition, proceeding to yield before centrifugal forces of the present.

Not despondency speaking here.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Prem » 15 Jul 2011 23:37

[quote="Rajesh[/quote]
well said. If the world was in awe in Bollywood and Sitar-Vadan at a time, when we were still poor, wait till they see when Indian culture really explodes on the world scene in a couple of decades. Countries which had little cultural depth have been able to create Harry Potters and Disney Theme Parks out of very little. When Indian fiction writers, painters, sculptors, architects, fashion designers, classical musicians, composers, film directors, singers, dancers, really have the wind of a 1.5 quadrillion rupee economy behind them, and can tap into the depth of Indian culture, they will dominate the world culturescape like no other power before them.

Rajesh babu, i accuse of stealing my lines and thoughts. 8) Rememebr the story of Old Poak and his grand litter looking across Wagha, watching the clelebration, bhangra in the bright, high house, holding back his tears as sign of last remnant of human instinct.
Jai ho 2022!! Everything you said will start coming true a decae from now!! Like the Men's Wearhouse Man, i guarrantee it . Dreaming is the first step in realizing the aspirations. We shall change the human civilization for ever. Let every man , woman and child of India glitter with bright colorful dresing, wearing permanent smile to send the Indic message that life is beautiful and worth celebrating every minute and not subject to the anger of some unknown godly entity for just being human . Let there be 1k Statues of Chamunda Devi on Wagha depicting the tearing of the Dushts apart as punishment for their sinful thoughts and activities.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RajeshA » 16 Jul 2011 01:39

Prem wrote:Rajesh babu, i accuse of stealing my lines and thoughts.

Prem ji,

If you want to avoid others stealing, you should not so openly display richness of thought! Jai Ho! :)

ramana
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 16 Jul 2011 02:02

In South America already Portuguese and Spanish language TV serials are based on Indian themes.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RajeshA » 16 Jul 2011 03:18

This poem on the Holy Quran written some 35 years ago by the ninth President of India, Dr Pandit Shanker Dayal Sharma, says it beautifully. It’s very good because it’s very true. I have translated it myself.

Amal ki kitab thi. Dua ki kitab bana dia

It was a command for action.

You turned it into a book of prayer.

Samajhne ki kitab thi. Parhne ki kitab bana dia.

It was a Book to understand.

You read it without understanding.

Zindaon ka dastoor tha. Murdon ka manshoor bana dia.

It was a code for the living.

You turned it into a manifesto of the dead.

Jo ilm ki kitab thi. Usay la ilmon ke hath thama dia.

That which was a book of knowledge; You abdicated to the ignoramus.

Taskheer-e-kayenaat ka dars denay aayi thi. Sirf madrason ka nisaab bana dia.

It came to give knowledge of Creation.

You abandoned it to the madrassah.

Murda qaumon ko zinda karne aayi thi. Murdon ko bakhshwane per laga dia.

It came to give life to dead nations.

You used it for seeking mercy for the dead.


Link

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby somnath » 16 Jul 2011 06:51

Ashutosh Varshney on the proposed Communal Violence Bill...

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rethi ... l/818096/0

There has been a lot of critique of this, but none as compelling as Prof Varshney's here...

According to worldwide evidence, riots are regular occurrences at low levels of national income, but only occasional episodes at middle and high incomes.

On why this is so, the research is not conclusive. But two hypotheses have been considered reasonable. First, as incomes rapidly rise, popular aspirations change and a desire for material advancement, perhaps always present, becomes more realistic. It is possible to envision a better economic future, if many others around are rising. As a result, a new politics of aspirations emerges, shrinking space for politicians to mobilise groups for communal riots.


A preponderant majority of India’s riots took place, when India was a low-income country. India has now become a middle-income country and is growing faster than ever before. To the extent we can make predictions on the basis of research, riots will increasingly be a matter of India’s past, not its future. While it is not impossible for this prediction to be wrong, it will be a great surprise if communal riots returns to India in a big way, as the nation rises up the income ladder. The basic point is that we can’t create a huge bureaucracy with unprecedented powers on the basis of a low-odds scenario.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby devesh » 16 Jul 2011 07:19

Somnath,

you forgot to include the part where he says that one of the fatal flaws of the bill is the expansion of state machinery's power and putting even more trust in state machinery. according to his analysis, this bill puts an inordinate amount of power in the hands of state machinery, and also *trusts* the machinery to do the *right* thing.....the popular belief is that civil society is trying to take away powers of government. but in reality, this bill is a clear evidence that civil society is doing the exact opposite.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Arjun » 16 Jul 2011 10:13

somnath wrote:Ashutosh Varshney on the proposed Communal Violence Bill...

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rethi ... l/818096/0

There has been a lot of critique of this, but none as compelling as Prof Varshney's here...

Not really....he still defends the hare-brained leftist view that majority communalism is worse than minority communalism. He also implies that the majority community has been the bigger instigator of rioting in the country.

He is opposing the Bill which is good, but his logic on the parts above is pretty retarded.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby somnath » 16 Jul 2011 17:41

Arjun wrote:he still defends the hare-brained leftist view that majority communalism is worse than minority communalism. He also implies that the majority community has been the bigger instigator of rioting in the country

Well, whether majority communalism is "worse" or not is a POV - which of the two POVs is "hare brained" depends in turn on the POV of the person making that judgement..

In terms of "data" that Prof Varshney refers to, it is very well documented that in post-independence riots, the minorities have come off worse, by far - there is no ideology there, its data...

To me, the crux of the argument is different - an upwardly mobile, aspirational spciety will have less time for breaking social peace...Which is why Gujarat 2002 is perhaps the last instance of large scale rioting in the country...Its not entirely coincidental that India's spectacular growth started a year or so after those riots, and we havent had one like that since...MJ Akbar made a similar point too somewhere (I forget where though)...

Hence, a special law for "communal riots" is trying to address yesterday's problem....

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 16 Jul 2011 18:37

Aha - so now a few googled snapshots of representations of Ashutosh Varshney's various works - is taken as his clear-cut indictment of the "majority" community's pre-eminent role in causing "riots"? His data is "impeccable" and his data is based on what? It is hilarious to see how far p-secs can sink low in their lying campaigns to score their political points!

I can see that Varshneys's original work is unfamiliar to this particular p-sec at least, where he describes the source of his data and the limitations of that data. In fact most of that data was collected for a joint research with another who came to diametrically opposite conclusions to him - and it was primarily based on trawling through "print" and other "media" reports. The limitations and biases introduced in that data is clearly acknowledged by Varshney - but of course our p-sec pretenders do not know that! :rotfl:

Moreover - early on, Varshney himself was more critical of coming to the "majority community responsible" paradigm conclusion, and this was one of his major points of contention against other claimants of the same paradigm. Varshney's conclusions were actually more nuanced than this blighted p-sec agenda of pushing for a "community" paradigm. There are many case studies which also go against such a blanket "majority community" paradigm. The most elaborate being done on Hyderabad. In fact both Varshney and other researchers actually point to "major political parties responsible" paradigm, rather than majority "community" paradigms.

He has made convenient noises on his latest appearances on p-sec TV channels, but even here he did try to maintain his nuanced pointed finger at the "dominant" political "party" culture rather than community at large. p-secs should at least do their homework better before using names of academics for their personal political agenda.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Atri » 16 Jul 2011 18:51

How to wipe out Islamic terror - By Subramanian Swamy
http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/analys ... or_1566203

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby sanjeevpunj » 16 Jul 2011 20:03

Very interesting indeed. I am pasting the Subramaniam Swamy Strategies here below -
Strategy 1: Remove Article 370 and resettle ex-servicemen in the valley. Create Panun Kashmir for the Hindu Pandit community. Look for or create an opportunity to take over PoK. If Pakistan
continues to back terrorists, assist the Baluchis and Sindhis to get their independence.

Strategy 2: Remove the masjid in Kashi Vishwanath temple and the 300 masjids at other temple sites.

Strategy 3: Implement the uniform civil code, make learning of Sanskrit and singing of Vande Mataram mandatory, and declare India a Hindu Rashtra in which non-Hindus can vote only if they proudly
acknowledge that their ancestors were Hindus. Rename India Hindustan as a nation of Hindus and those whose ancestors were Hindus.

Strategy 4: Enact a national law prohibiting conversion from Hinduism to any other religion. Re-conversion will not be banned. Declare that caste is not based on birth but on code or discipline. Welcome non-Hindus to re-convert to the caste of their choice provided they adhere to the code of discipline. Annex land from Bangladesh in proportion to the illegal migrants from that country staying in India. At present, the northern third from Sylhet to Khulna can be annexed to re-settle illegal migrants.

Strategy 5: Propagate the development of a Hindu mindset.

India can solve its terrorist problem within five years by such a deterrent strategy, but for that we have to learn the four lessons outlined above, and have a Hindu mindset to take bold, risky, and
hard decisions to defend the nation. If the Jews could be transformed from lambs walking meekly to the gas chambers to fiery lions in just 10 years, it should not be difficult for Hindus in
much better circumstances (after all we are 83% of India), to do so in five years.

Guru Gobind Singh showed us how just five fearless persons under spiritual guidance can transform a society. Even if half the Hindu voters are persuaded to collectively vote as Hindus, and for a
party sincerely committed to a Hindu agenda, then we can forge an instrument for change. And that is the bottom line in the strategy to deter terrorism in a democratic Hindustan at this moment of
truth.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby somnath » 16 Jul 2011 20:13

^^^Subramanyam Swamy is either smoking something strong, or looking to nurture a constituency thats shrivelled to insignificance...Is this a paradigm to counter terror or invite more social tensions? Not even getting into the practicalities (or legalities) of implementing some of these...If SS can save his deposit in Madurai fighting with this agenda, that itself would be a big achievement :twisted:

Of course, there is some pseudo-academic fulminations w.r.t Ashutosh Varshney's works..Strange, the point being made was about communal violence having rendered minorities "worse off" in general, not about whether a community was "responsible" for it...The "responsibilities" are far more complex to fix than simple communitarian pigeonholing...Freudian slips, eh? :twisted:

BTW, some data on riots here..
http://kms1.isn.ethz.ch/serviceengine/F ... _India.pdf

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Arjun » 16 Jul 2011 20:24

somnath wrote:Well, whether majority communalism is "worse" or not is a POV - which of the two POVs is "hare brained" depends in turn on the POV of the person making that judgement..

Varshney knows very well this hare-brained splitting hairs of communalism as majority and minority is against the spirit of liberalism. Which is why, in the article, he presents the convoluted argument that the liberal viewpoint is actually the 'radically liberal' viewpoint, and that his viewpoint which he terms the 'moderately liberal' viewpoint needs to carry the day. Load of horse manure I say, and its obviously my POV...but a POV shared by anyone who knows what liberalism stands for.

In terms of "data" that Prof Varshney refers to, it is very well documented that in post-independence riots, the minorities have come off worse, by far - there is no ideology there, its data...

Quite correct. It is data - Varshney's own data, since he has set himself up as the indisputable authority on communal riots. He had apparently explicitly outlined the limitations of his data-set earlier, which he seems not to have repeated in this article.

Also, isn't this the same Varshney who wrote in the FT about India's robber barons based on data of one particular year - which totally changed when the next Forbes report came out? I wouldn't place too much credence on his data analysis capabilities.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby darshhan » 16 Jul 2011 21:47

somnath wrote:^^^Subramanyam Swamy is either smoking something strong,



Well if someone has the urge to smoke then why not smoke something strong.Otherwise why smoke at all.He makes lot of sense for those with courage,character,honor and a love of this nation.He might be smoking but atleast he is not giving blowjobs to the p-sec crowd.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby somnath » 16 Jul 2011 22:26

Arjun wrote:but a POV shared by anyone who knows what liberalism stands for

Sure, presumably there is a directory of " certified liberal" people who have all sent their opinions!

Arjun wrote:It is data - Varshney's own data, since he has set himself up as the indisputable authority on communal riots

As far as the data is concerned - VArshney isnt the only "source" - there are more (see the IPCS study above)...

Arjun wrote:Also, isn't this the same Varshney who wrote in the FT about India's robber barons based on data of one particular year - which totally changed when the next Forbes report came out? I wouldn't place too much credence on his data analysis capabilities

Not sure about Varshney, but Raghuram Rajan sure wrote about the prepponderance of "natural resource barons" in India's richlist...Hardly anything exceptionable in that...

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby devesh » 16 Jul 2011 22:56

somnath wrote:^^^Subramanyam Swamy is either smoking something strong, or looking to nurture a constituency thats shrivelled to insignificance...Is this a paradigm to counter terror or invite more social tensions? Not even getting into the practicalities (or legalities) of implementing some of these...If SS can save his deposit in Madurai fighting with this agenda, that itself would be a big achievement :twisted:

Of course, there is some pseudo-academic fulminations w.r.t Ashutosh Varshney's works..Strange, the point being made was about communal violence having rendered minorities "worse off" in general, not about whether a community was "responsible" for it...The "responsibilities" are far more complex to fix than simple communitarian pigeonholing...Freudian slips, eh? :twisted:

BTW, some data on riots here..
http://kms1.isn.ethz.ch/serviceengine/F ... _India.pdf



what's so "impractical" about abolishing Article 370???

"shrivelled to insignificance" --- already making veiled threats....the language is very interesting. shows a vicious hatred and also the use of "shrivelled" indicates the fantasizing going on about crushing the Hindu spirit. this language should be take note of. it is almost certainly a frothing at the mouth that reflects inner desires to crush/neuter/destroy any Hindu political expression.

"social tensions" ---- where was this concern about "social tensions" when appeasement first started??? if Hindus are aggressive, then it's "social tension." what about Jihadis and EJs??? why is there absolutely no angst against those elements???

so, now Article 370 is a matter of "practicality" and "legality" and not political appeasement??? this is very good. let us continue that line of thought and discuss the legality of Article 370. I take a very personal offense to non-Telugus living in AP. AP makes an agitation and gets Parliament to pass a law stating non-Telugus can't stay or own land in AP. they can only be temporary visitors and must restrict themselves to certain "allowed" areas, or they can be take out as a fair game. how does that scenario sound??? what is the legality of this bill? does constitution allow such special treatment to certain states/provinces? do elaborate on this. I am very interested to know what the legality of this scenario is.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Atri » 16 Jul 2011 23:14

The article exposed the bias within those who pretend to be right wingers as well.. its not about the matter in the article. The strategies and points can be debated. even the "right wingers (supposedly)" were wondering the act of DNA of publishing this article. Exposed pretty well, who are in for convenience..

If we speak in historical sense and recall and juxtapose the events happened from 1737 to 1788 (around panipat campaign), this article (and the reaction to it) not only showed the unease in the enemy side, but also who can be potential Holkar in the game.. :P

I say, great job Swamy ji..

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 17 Jul 2011 01:30

Interesting - so interesting - that "minorities coming worse off" in "riots" is not about "responsibility of the majority community". So if "minorities" are responsible - they do it to get "worse off". If they are not, "majority" are responsible because they have then a motivation in coming out relatively "better off". If neither are responsible, then the "democratically" elected government is responsible - which does so either by default of abdication of control of criminal networks, or by active support of "majority" against "minority".

What a great twisting around of liars! But then again there are liars, damn liars and p-secs. p-secs refer to Varshney's data as "impeccable" not knowing or reading up the original work where this data "appears" and the controversy around it - and how different people came to opposite conclusions using exactly the same data. Varshney's own acknowledgment about the limitations of his data is clearly stated by him. But p-sec lying has come to that level now where the border line between pretension, ignorance, lying and propaganda all have blurred. It is understandable why p-secs fulminate dubbing critics "pseudo-academic" when they are caught out cheating and lying in their own pretension of being "academic"! :lol: p-secism teaches never to acknowledge mistakes and blunders or shortcomings - perhaps a special "subregional" forward caste megalomania? Some familiarity with Varshney's work would have shown Varshneys' obsession about "subregional" peculiarities contributing most to "riots"!

Most hilarious is the p-sec-i-conclusion that "intensive economic growth" rules out "riots", while at the same time thinking Varshney is "compelling"! Varshney tried to show that riots in India were predominantly an urban phenomenon - with the oh-so-looked-down-upon rural populations contributing insignificantly. Moreover riots were concentrated in more cosmopolitan, more upwardly-"mobile", more dynamic economies and upward growths - urban centres, where minorities had a significant historical and continuing numerical presence - and mostly concentrated in some 8 urban centres onlee. Now of course the great p-sec who gave out his hatred and mockery of "rural origins" in a memorable Freudian slip - cannot "know" this aspect of Varshney's "data"! :rotfl:

Shall we follow how Varshney has twisted and turned over the years on this data and "conclusions"? Even more interesting is how "financial flow/monetary profits" mantra combines with p-sec-i lying, pretension and ego - to usurp other people's works or statements based on some rudimentary googling, in support of their underlying political agenda.

Will the p-sec liars and pretenders have the basic integrity to also cite works and "data" that contradict Varshney and his conclusions, or the works by other researchers who trace "rioting" to entrenched political interests that revived minority-exclusivism and activism to counter leftward "drift" of certain "inner-cities"? Perhaps not - because the slimy character of p-secs force them to remain silent on activities of their Kongshaal masters - who were almost always involved in reviving minority exclusivism, that ultimately created the grounds for rioting or Islamist separatism.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Arjun » 17 Jul 2011 06:13

somnath wrote:Sure, presumably there is a directory of " certified liberal" people who have all sent their opinions!

There is an easy way to find out true liberal opinion....Why doesn't this jackass suggest the same prescription - that laws be differentiated on the basis of majority and minority communalism - in the US? Or is it that this prescription only works for India and Hindus ??!

Let him go ahead and suggest the idea of implementation in the US if he has any guts.....lets see how long Univ of Michigan continues to tolerate him once he does that. We would also obtain in fairly rich and expressive language, the opinion of liberals in the US regarding this joker's ideas. Why restrict brilliant ideas only to India where understanding of 'liberalism' is quite limited in any case?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Muppalla » 17 Jul 2011 06:42

Atri wrote:The article exposed the bias within those who pretend to be right wingers as well.. its not about the matter in the article. The strategies and points can be debated. even the "right wingers (supposedly)" were wondering the act of DNA of publishing this article. Exposed pretty well, who are in for convenience..

If we speak in historical sense and recall and juxtapose the events happened from 1737 to 1788 (around panipat campaign), this article (and the reaction to it) not only showed the unease in the enemy side, but also who can be potential Holkar in the game.. :P

I say, great job Swamy ji..


The content of Swamy may look good and accurate but one has to be very careful and also the intent behind such an article and that too suddenly.

Let me point to his Year 2000 article:

The RSS game plan - SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY

Today the creeping fascism of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) is coming upon us not as gradually as imperialism did, nor as suddenly as did the Emergency. Its spread is being calibrated adroitly by seven faceless men of the RSS, the RSS "high comma nd". We barely feel it. Some yesteryear civil libertyites such as Arun Shourie have been co-opted. Others are being wooed or chased.


Christians are being targeted by the front organisations of the RSS in order to terrorise and ghetto-ise all minorities. Since Osama bin Laden is stalking the Hindustan peninsula with his millions of dollars and narcotics, for the wily and cautious RSS. Christians are an easy target because there are no Christian terrorists to retaliate. As the period of the Emergency clearly demonstrated, the RSS is astute enough to know when to hunt with the hounds and when to run with the hares. They are smarter than the German fascists in this respect.


The RSS game plan also has proposals to bridle the electoral system. Adult suffrage is out, but furthermore, the electoral college for the Lok Sabha will not vote for candidates, but for parties under a List System. Electronic Voting Machines (EVMs) will be used in all the constituencies. Perhaps it is then easier to rig the outcome. After all, in the 1999 general elections, the BJP and its allies won 34 out of the 45 Lok Sabha constituencies which had EVMs. On that ratio, the NDA should have won 405 se ats of the 544 Lok Sabha constituencies and not 292. EVMs have to be programmed by an engineer to tabulate the votes in its memory. It can easily be programmed to transfer votes of one candidate to another, or one party to another. The EVMs are entirely unsafeguarded today. I suspect it was rigged in the 1999 general elections


The RSS game plan is thus ready. Only the D-Day for the blitzkrieg is to be determined. Since it appears that the RSS has already been generating momentum on religious fundamentalist issues (for example, Gujarat's Ram temple) and raised the fanatical emo tional temperature (chasing of Christian missionaries), my guess is that this campaign will be taken to a fever pitch by November 9, 2001 (the 1986 date for shilanyas) and then mid-term elections will be called.

Prime Minister Vajpayee will as usual waffle and wobble, but he will not resist. That is his nature; he is a mask for the RSS, as Commissar Govindacharya had once said.

Of course, the good news is that the game plan can fail. I live on the hope that in India, no well-laid plan ever works. India, after all, is a functioning anarchy. That has been the undoing of every attempt to straitjacket its society. That is why we ar e still the longest continuing unbroken civilisation of over 10,000 years. The RSS is, luckily, our counter-culture. The vibrations of Mother India will, I hope, be its undoing.


I reiterate that SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY is the worst ever creature that mankind has ever created. Sorry for being on the extreme about this. The pendulum swings are too much to beleive him.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Atri » 17 Jul 2011 07:43

Hence the reference towards potential "Holkar" in the game, Muppalla, ji... Hindus who support him may be up for a "heart break" in coming future. He attacks the dynasty in most vile form, and yet is allowed to sustain means either he holds something vitally critical which can ruin the government and dynasty OR he too belongs to dynasty.. that card is still not played.. if everything is good, aal ij well.. otherwise, we would know a potential candidate who befriended and helped the "najib"..

I think, he must be given chance, while the pendulum swings on this side.. he never got so much coverage and following like today. If he betrays, he understands the consequences. Not only for him personally, but for this thought process and the very continuity of 5000 year old civilization which seems to be his constant feature close to his heart. he tends to fight everything which in his opinion endangers this continuity (of course after his immediate political interests). Second consistent thing is perhaps his personal grievances with the "rump" of the dynasty and with ABV. he was great personal friend of RG senior (his admission) and Rajmata was out of picture and not very prominent then. His betrayal (if it happens) will take away credibility from all those in future who strive for judicial prosecution of corrupt and anti-national along his 2G lines..

Sometimes, I remember the story of Barbarika while thinking of him.. While he is son of arjuna, his propensity to take side of weak (even if adharmik side is weak) may prove dangerous.

OTOH, this article has also resulted in some unease amongst traditional keepers of truth. People are not used to read such ideas from hindu side on mainstream media. this might have a butterfly effect. More people with better integrity and character finding balls to articulate in more logical, realistic and coherent manner now that precedence has been set.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby somnath » 17 Jul 2011 10:01

devesh wrote:what's so "impractical" about abolishing Article 370???

"shrivelled to insignificance" --- already making veiled threats....the language is very interesting. shows a vicious hatred and also the use of "shrivelled" indicates the fantasizing going on about crushing the Hindu spirit. this language should be take note of. it is almost certainly a frothing at the mouth that reflects inner desires to crush/neuter/destroy any Hindu political expression

Art 370 is but one of the many suggestions in that postulate - most of which make no sense...Making sanskrit mandatory, or declaring "hinduism" as state religion, or indeed the "solution" on Kashi Vishwanath and 300 other temples - among other monstrosities..If these are supposed to help us fight islamic terror, then well...If I were Hafiz Sayeed, I would pray 15 times a day for the Indian govt to carry out even one of these - it would more ammunition for the "cause" than any speech @ Muridke, or any amount of support from Pak/ISI...

About "shrivelled" support - didnt understand what's objectionable in that...The support for ideas like these peaked around 1993-94..Since then, we have seen what has happened to institutional political support for such ideas...We have also seen how individuals propagating such ideas have fared in electoral terms - BL Sharma Prem, Sadhvi Rithambhra, Vinay Katiyar, Shiv Sena.....BJP itself had to move substantially off these ideas to gain power...People forget that India's "secular" not because its muslims desire it to be, but because its hindus choose it to be so (MJ Akbar)..

subramanyam swamy is hardly an exemplar of morality or consistency - his "swings" are quite bizarre, but his latest "fad" is just that, a passing fad - let him at least win his own Madurai constituency on this agenda (actually, even save his deposit)!

Ashutosh Varshney is essentially correct, IMO - communal riots are a thing of the past...An aspirational India has no time for such rubbish, and politicians hav seen diminishing returns for conducting them over time...For no reason have we not seen a major riot in the last 10 years - the same period when India has seen its most spectacular growth...

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Arjun » 17 Jul 2011 10:32

somnath wrote:People forget that India's "secular" not because its muslims desire it to be, but because its hindus choose it to be so (MJ Akbar)..

Very correct. India is secular largely because Hindus choose to be so, but I don't think Hindus quite had the Sonia / NAC and Doggy Singh version of secularism in mind. The Sonia government antics seems to have moved matters to a tipping point... The more the NAC and Doggy Singh display their true colours, the more Subramianam Swamy's ideas will gain in appeal.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Prem » 17 Jul 2011 10:48

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby bhavin » 17 Jul 2011 11:10

somnath wrote:..... IMO - communal riots are a thing of the past...An aspirational India has no time for such rubbish, and politicians hav seen diminishing returns for conducting them over time...For no reason have we not seen a major riot in the last 10 years - the same period when India has seen its most spectacular growth...


Somnathji - maybe I don't understand the point you are making but regarding communal riots

it could also be due to no Godhras happening in the last 10 years... Also the spectacular growth in India has not happened equally in all strata's of the society, in which case according to your argument, there should be communal riots by or between those stratas who are not able to participate in this growth...

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby svenkat » 17 Jul 2011 11:43

Dr Swamy being a tamizh brahmin shares the 'prejudices' of his 'community'.Tamizh people are as SDRE as it gets,also they are extremely conscious of their linguistic heritage.Tamizh alone of all the Indian languages has an 'independent' literary tradition in the sense it is not derived from Sanskritic tradition,though undoubtedly it is influenced by it and shares with it the common Indic heritage.This fact cannot be wished away.Let me make it clear,I am not positing Tamizh vs Sanskrit,earlier vs later nonsense.Also as a Harvard educated 'liberal',he was not comfortable,like many other Indians,of the RSS world view.The Congress was the 'dominant social voice' in India and Dr Swamy was not an exception.

But as our polity has evolved through the 90s and 21st century,in changed circumstances,many have realised that most western ideas give partial pictures and Indians have increasingly sought understanding and 'comfort' in more rooted world views.It is to the credit of Dr Swamy,that he has disanced himself from his earlier world views.Even in North India,there is greater understanding of Indian diversity.

While Swamy has very very limited traction in tamizh social/political life given his background of early life in North India,he has enough understanding to know that the terms of political engagement are hostile to 'Hinduism' in India in general,and TN in particular.The scope for pan-Indian political Hindutva mobilisation in TN is limited today and non-existent earlier.For that matter,what is the scope in Andhra?His earlier hostility to Sangh(one sees this in Bengalis,even Hindu Punjabis) has given way to very intimate relations with Hindu organisation particularly after the arrest of Sri Jayendra Saraswathi when vitriolic abuse was let loose by a spectrum of 'interest groups'.

Just thought to get the facts and opinions right.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Atri » 17 Jul 2011 12:09

Svenkat ji,

To add to that, even the BJP and Sangh of 90s and 2000s especially post 2008 Mumbai attacks is different. The old guard of rajjubhaiyya, K sudarshan, togadia, Singhal, MM Joshi, LK Advani and most importantly ABV (against whom SS has only vitriol to offer, for some weird reason) has also gone. There is slowly emerging synergy amongst many groups which were fighting for same cause but has different opinions on how to do it. Even Congress is much different today. We had Rajesh Pilot, Madhavrao Shinde Sitaram Kesari etc alive then and in power. The congress until 2001-2002 was non-mainovaadi multipolar congress with maino as 1 of the poles (that too after 1999 - the famous/infamous Jaya-Sonia meeting post which ABV lost by 1 vote). Post the death of these three leaders within 1 year (july 2000 to sept 2001) changed the scenario in congress gradually as it became mainovaadi.

If we put global perspective here, re-entry of Unkil in the region catapulted Gandhis back to power in India. from 1988-89 to 13-05-1998, unkil was disinterested in this reason and was basking in the glory of victory. post may 98, maino conspicuously starts emerging and one by one, the rivals vanish and soon the INC becomes unipolar entity, thus compromising even the opposition leadership (in form of ABV, LKA and their role in rescuing Yuvaraj). With entry of unkil, old network had to be reactivated to keep India from misbehaving. One of the incentives for that this time was economic growth of India and removal of sanctions post 1998 nuke tests. the disadvantages was reactivation of dynasty.

The politics of India has increasingly become mainovaadi Vs India-vaadi and the divide is growing more and more sharper.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby somnath » 17 Jul 2011 14:49

bhavin wrote:it could also be due to no Godhras happening in the last 10 years.

26/11, Akshardham, various bomb blasts - there have been no dearth of "action reaction" opportunities!

bhavin wrote:Also the spectacular growth in India has not happened equally in all strata's of the society, in which case according to your argument, there should be communal riots by or between those stratas who are not able to participate in this growth.

Dont think I meant that riots are caused by economic sclerosis....The "reasons" for riots are obviously complex, but a ceteris paribus condition is the willingness of a critical mass of people (and administrative apparatus) to be complicit in the political "game"...Economic growth provides that disincentive for people to be engendering the riots, especially true in urban centres, where much of the riots historically took place...Social peace is a prerequisite for material progress...

On the other hand, people left behind in the economic race do sometimes "strike back" violently - it takes the form of naxalism and violence on land acquisition, for example...

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Venkarl » 17 Jul 2011 15:36

News related to Sri Padmanabhaswamy Temple>>>> T P Sunderarajan dead

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby SwamyG » 17 Jul 2011 18:03

svenkat wrote:Dr Swamy being a tamizh brahmin shares the 'prejudices' of his 'community'.Tamizh people are as SDRE as it gets,also they are extremely conscious of their linguistic heritage.

Great generalization. As if people from other communities are so carefree and are not conscious of their heritage. Just check some of BRF posts in some dhaagas.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby hardeepsingh » 17 Jul 2011 18:30

Hello everybody.

Been going through the posts. Conventional wisdom on this forum seems to be as follows:

1) Pakistan's nuclear weapons deter us from retaliating overtly against it

2) Covert action is possible.

3) But it is largely due to American pressure that India doesnt retaliate, either covertly or in a limited overt fashion which doesnt have much of a chance to escalate into a nuclear flare up

Am I correct in my reading ?

What is the considered opinion here ? What weight would you assign to the following factors in India not retaliating.

1. US pressure to not retaliate

2. India lacking the specific military capability to retaliate in the manner which is both effective and not invite a nuclear escalation

3. India lacking even basic military capability because of massive corruption in the procurement process within the Defense department among both the civilian officers and high level military officers who oversee such procurements, year after year, decade after decade and retaliation will thoroughly expose it, like Kargil did to a certain extent (some say Kargil was not escalated into a wider war by India due to the lack of such capabilities and the fear of being exposed)

4. No proactive and strategic thinking among the politicians

5. Lack of proactive and strategic thinking among the Indian armed forces and intelligence officials and whatever little there is, is not listened to by politicians, as the armed forces have very little say in any kind of political decision making in India

6. Lack of genuine and sustained outrage among Indian populace in general, with only a few educated middle class, salaried or professional and nationalist "Macaulytes" (macaulytes come in two flavors, the traitors and the nationalists) feeling this extreme urge to "hit back" and in general the overwhelming "OBCs" and "Dalits" for lack of better terms (which together form roughly 70% of Indian population) being totally apathetic to any sense of nationalism and having no interest to hit back (I am stating reality as it exists, not as everyone would like for it to be, which is what explains Digvijay Singh's getting away with statements made on behalf of Sonia and Rahul which pander to this group)

7. Indian political leaders not wanting to risk losing their positions of power and disrupt their "business as usual", which is bribe taking, more bribe taking and then even more excessvie bribe taking, thus using the Pak nuclear weapons as a very welcome and convenient excuse for not striking back and then blaming the bad old US for pressuring them into restraint, with a gullible Indian public ready to believe anything about the Americans

Also, how many feel that the Indian nationalists are the most inept nationalists anywhere in history and have completely failed to grasp the causes of India's failure time after time and thereby failing to come up with strategies to reverse the trend.

Also, there seems to be another conventional wisdom here. That India is a young country and one should have patience and wait. Things will fix themselves over time. How many of you are comfortable with the idea of waiting another five years, ten years, twenty years, or even longer ? Waiting will be a much more paletable idea if one saw strategic thinking among policy makers and had faith in a strategic plan even if the plan is a 50 year plan. Problem with waiting right now is that no one has any strategic thinking and there is no plan and therefore it is very difficult to have faith in nothing. Waiting will therefore, simply result in more of the same, actually worse by the day and getting nowhere, while the gullible keep parroting the talking points of those narrow ruling elites whose interest it is in to continue more of the same.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Muppalla » 17 Jul 2011 20:09

Atri wrote:Hence the reference towards potential "Holkar" in the game, Muppalla, ji... Hindus who support him may be up for a "heart break" in coming future. He attacks the dynasty in most vile form, and yet is allowed to sustain means either he holds something vitally critical which can ruin the government and dynasty OR he too belongs to dynasty.. that card is still not played.. if everything is good, aal ij well.. otherwise, we would know a potential candidate who befriended and helped the "najib"..


Here is another blast from the past.

Swamy likens Sonia, Jaya, Mayawati to divinity

Janata Party president Subramanian Swamy credited the outcome of the confidence vote to "three great ladies" -- Sonia Gandhi, J Jayalalitha and Mayawati -- describing them as Lakshmi, Saraswati and Durga.



The folks who live on internet will easily connect with the content of the Swamy article on DNA. No question there.

However, I think he is playing a nice game of an inflitrator from Sonia gang to restrict BJP's political strategy. BJP did a massive tit-for-tat campaing and used the terrorism as an election issue after the previous Mumbai blasts. It got a zlitch. INC was succesuful in creating a polorization of Muslim-fear against Hindu backlash.

This time BJP was really cautious except for the babble by Rajnath Singh against Diggy raja. At an opportune time he takes BJP's role in creating a sutuation that political BJP is trying to avoid.

It is UP elections that will affect. Again it may sound insensitive but using this blasts, a fear of BJP's return in UP is being builtup. The top guys in BJP knows this and avoiding to make huge statements. That is not per expectations of INC and hence we finally saw the same from Swamy and Rajnath Singh.

This is an IM blast and has several political advantages that can be built out of it.

added later:
Swamy's anti-Sonia stuff is not provable even by using a Shah commission type stuff. It only backfires and the madam likes such mudslinging.

The strategy of determining (1) who should be INC's opposition so that they can control (2) what should be agenda of opposition

is very artfully managed and maintained by INC. The blasts are easily being converted to their advantage. Swamy, Varun Gandhi and Rajnath are clearly suspect in this continuous saga similar behaviours.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby devesh » 17 Jul 2011 20:37

Atri ji,

spot on with the evaluation. if not for the existence of a thoroughly professional military, even that aspect of Rashtra would have become a Maino-puppet. as I see it right now, Maino has infiltrated every aspect of Bharat with her stooges. the security/internal forces, as usual, are INC chamchas. but a whole range of political/economic/institutional bodies are all being infiltrated by Maino agenda. NAC, Lokpal also directly or indirectly serve the interests of Maino players who themselves knowingly or unknowingly serve Maino.

a very stark picture is emerging where the dominant political class is positioning itself as anti-India.

very similar to Dhanananda vs. Bharat-varsha, and Brihadratha Maurya vs. Bharat-varsha.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby somnath » 17 Jul 2011 20:55

devesh wrote:if not for the existence of a thoroughly professional military, even that aspect of Rashtra would have become a Maino-puppet. as I see it right now, Maino has infiltrated every aspect of Bharat with her stooges

Just curious - what is so special about the Armed forces (firmly under civvie political control) that they are not under "mainowadi" influences, but are "professional"? While every other thing is "unprofessional" and mainowadi? Do the members of the Armed forces come from Jupiter?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby devesh » 18 Jul 2011 03:10

^^^
patriotism and national duty still remain the clarion call of the armed forces. civilian political control is necessary, but the internal working dynamics of an armed force are vastly different from other bureaucratic state institutions. it is unfortunate that you can't understand the difference in working style between military and non-military institutions.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Prem » 18 Jul 2011 08:09

Mind and Life XIV -- Day 2 pm - with the Dalai Lama
Basically Bhuddist View about Creation/ Karmic effect on Creation etc
[youtube]TukWJFdLxT8&feature=relmfu[/youtube]
Last edited by Prem on 18 Jul 2011 08:12, edited 1 time in total.


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