Indian Interests

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abhishek_sharma
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby abhishek_sharma » 17 Dec 2012 08:58

Bismillah..can fellow biraders suggest a good book on the history of British rule in India ...dhanyawaad onlee...

ramana
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 17 Dec 2012 22:17

vijayk wrote:One note to stupid UPA/CON voters...

http://www.niticentral.com/2012/12/govt ... o-5-7.html
Govt lowers GDP growth forecast to 5.7 %

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Rony » 18 Dec 2012 22:37

This is about Europe but the reasoning can be equally ascribed to ancient and early medeival India and why it did not engage in conscious Indian identity in ancient and early medeival times (with exceptions, of course).

If Europe, until recently ancient India paid so little attention to its own identity it was because it incorrectly saw itself as the entire world; or, at least, considered itself to be so much superior to the rest of the globe that it felt no need to define itself in relation to others. Inevitably, this had deleterious consequences on its practical behavior.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 19 Dec 2012 00:45

Looks like Modi just saved Sir Creek from being handed over to TSP by MMS.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RoyG » 19 Dec 2012 01:10

ramana wrote:Looks like Modi just saved Sir Creek from being handed over to TSP by MMS.


I agree. He has done a great service to the nation.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Prem » 19 Dec 2012 02:47

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/201 ... s-muslims/
“No religion” is the third-largest world group after Christians, Muslims

People with no religious affiliation make up the third-largest global group in a new study of the size of the world’s faiths, placing after Christians and Muslims and just before Hindus.The study, based on extensive data for the year 2010, also showed Islam and Hinduism are the faiths mostly likely to expand in the future while Jews have the weakest growth prospects.It showed Christianity is the most evenly spread religion, present in all regions of the world, while Hinduism is the least global with 94 percent of its population in one country, India.Overall, 84 percent of the world’s inhabitants, which it estimated at 6.9 billion, identify with a religion, according to the study entitled “The Global Religious Landscape” issued by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life on Tuesday.The “unaffiliated” category covers all those who profess no religion, from atheists and agnostics to people with spiritual beliefs but no link to any established faith.“Many of the religiously unaffiliated do hold religious or spiritual beliefs,” the study stressed.“Belief in God or a higher power is shared by 7 percent of unaffiliated Chinese adults, 30 percent of unaffiliated French adults and 68 percent of unaffiliated U.S. adults,” it said.


WORLDWIDE BREAKDOWN
The study estimated Christianity was the largest faith at 2.2 billion adherents or 31.5 percent of the world's population.The Roman Catholic Church makes up 50 percent of that total, with Protestants -- including Anglicans and non-denominational churches -- at 37 percent and Orthodox at 12 percent.
There are about 1.6 billion Muslims around the world, or 23 percent of the global population. "The overwhelming majority (87-90 percent) are Sunnis, about 10-13 percent are Shia Muslims," the study said.Among the 1.1 billion unaffiliated people around the world, over 700 million, or 62 percent of them, live in China alone, where they make up 52.2 percent of the Chinese population.
Japan comes next with the second largest unaffiliated population in the world with 72 million, or 57 percent of the national population. After that comes the United States, 51 million people -- 16.4 percent of all Americans -- said they have no link to an established faith.The world's Hindu population is concentrated mostly in India, Nepal and Bangladesh. Half of the world's Buddhists live in China, followed far behind by Thailand at 13.2 percent of the world Buddhist population and Japan with 9.4 percent.The study found that about 405 million people, or about 6 percent of the world population, followed folk religions such as those found in Africa and China or among Native American and Australian aboriginal peoples.Another 58 million, or nearly 1 percent of the world population, belonged to "other religions" including Baha'i, Taoism, Jainism, Shintoism, Sikhism, Tenrikyo, Wicca and Zoroastrianism. Most were in the Asia-Pacific region.The study said that 97 percent of the world's Hindus, 87 percent of its Christians and 73 percent of its Muslims lived in countries where they were a large to overwhelming majority.Christians make up the majority in 157 countries and Muslims in 49, including 19 of the 20 states in the Middle East and North Africa, with the exception of Israel.By contrast, Hindus are in the majority only in India, Nepal and Mauritius.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 19 Dec 2012 02:56

So Mao failed in China to eliminate the Buddhists.
BTW if the Hindus and Buddhists are combined from above data the ranking is much better.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby shiv » 19 Dec 2012 09:33

Can anyone imagine the international airport in the Indian capital city having a work of art such as this one. Would our secular polity consider this an affront to the secular credentials of the nation to allow such a horrendous advertisement of the Hindu religion to greet visitors from all over the world?

These are from Bangkok airport.
Image
Image

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Dec 2012 11:01

Interesting- Lord Vishnu states when auras come to you to cooperate out of no choice, use them to do your work and discard them.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Pratyush » 19 Dec 2012 11:22

^^^

Looks like a Thai airport. The King of Thailand is seen as an avatar of Vishnu.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Dec 2012 11:54

I think these intreprations are from Shastras which say in some cases treat the King Instructions as laws from God so rule of law in the land will prevail, like traffic rules, tax laws etc. this has been misinterpreted as Avatar by Psycopants which was done in Nepal also.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 20 Dec 2012 01:59

Looks like UPA is on fast track on sell out.

Shyam Saran: Doha is gateway to nohwere!

.....Therefore, one needs to acknowledge that India has not been able to uphold its key interests in these negotiations.

We are now on the threshold of a single negotiating process under the ad hoc working group on the Durban Platform mandated to come up with a new climate change regime by 2015. It is imperative that we review our negotiating strategy so that we are able to salvage some lost ground and safeguard our vital interests.

To begin with, we need to acknowledge that what we are engaged in are full-fledged economic negotiations rather than technical deliberations on climate change. We must ensure that we do not acquiesce in a climate regime that diminishes, not enhances, our prospects for economic development.

{Again the Indian MEA approach of taking a knife to a gunfight can be seen again and again. I think its because of the silo nature of theri expertise.}

If we have to take on emission reduction obligations post-2020, then it may be in our interest to link this with an insistence on a robust regime with a strong compliance procedure rather than accept the approach, exemplified by the US, which wishes to establish a “pledge and review” regime with no compliance mechanism. This is precisely because we will be the most severely impacted by climate change.

It is also necessary to engage in sustained and vigorous diplomacy to build and maintain a critical mass of support among like-minded and developing countries for our negotiating posture. Our lack of consistency in the recent past has confused and even alienated some of our partners. Our display of flexibility to gain support from some of the developed countries has only led to even greater erosion of our position in the negotiations without any tangible gains.

While reassessing its strategy at the multilateral negotiations on climate change, India must nevertheless continue to pursue the vigorous implementation of its ambitious National Action Plan on Climate Change. The plan constitutes a visionary blueprint for sustainable development of our country and has its own compelling rationale. This would also lend greater credibility and confidence to our negotiating posture in the multilateral negotiations.



If SS, the negotiator of the IUCNA deal feels like this what about the rest of them!

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby AbhiJ » 20 Dec 2012 22:38


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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Virupaksha » 21 Dec 2012 00:39

X-post from Internal Security.

Indian express defence correspondent talks about a deal with the italians by Sonia Gandhi, Manmohan Singh & co. The marines in exchange for corruption cover up.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/chopadeal/1026369/0

https://twitter.com/manupubby

India bought x amount of helis for VVIPs. There is a corruption probe going on against augusta westland in italy, in which some people have been arrested in relation to the deal. Our oh oh clean defence minister urf coverup specialist, has said that there will be no probe until Italy officially sends a report, basically bury it. Then our clean PM and EAM made a deal that Italy will refuse to make the report public in exchange for the marines.

The marines will be released in the following fashion. The marines are out on bail. There is some 6 crores of guarentee against them. Khursid agreed to send them home because it is "festive time". These 6 crores will be used as blood money.

Manu Pubby ‏@manupubby
Had been warned by an insider a month back that the back channels were working for a corruption probe vs marines deal with Italy. Lets see..
Expand
6h Navdeep Singh ‏@SinghNavdeep
.@manupubby Backroom deal seems unlikely since the judiciary is involved in the issue, unless the prosecution itself supported the plea.
Expand
6h Manu Pubby ‏@manupubby
@SinghNavdeep Central government said in court tht Italy's plea be considered. As it is, decision left on govt to actually release them.
Expand
6h Navdeep Singh ‏@SinghNavdeep
@manupubby Perhaps not upto the govt to release them, but to let them leave our shores.
Expand
5h Manu Pubby ‏@manupubby
@SinghNavdeep Correct. They are already on bail. Also interesting is what the SC decides on a plea to transfer the case to Italy.
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abhishek_sharma
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby abhishek_sharma » 22 Dec 2012 15:45

From this book by Bechan Sharma 'Ugra'.

जन्मना जायते शूद्र .
sanskaarat dwijmuchyate ..

The author says that Manu wrote the lines shown above. The first line means that everyone is a shudra at the time of their birth. The second line means that their sanskaar make them brahmin (dwij).

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby SSridhar » 22 Dec 2012 19:38

Suicide bombers attack Airtel office in Nigeria

Let it be here for the time being. Will move it to TSP thread later.

A suicide bomber on Saturday attacked the office of a Nigerian subsidiary of Indian telecom giant Bharti Airtel in northern city of Kano.

“The attacker who hit the Airtel office was shot before the bomb exploded,” Ibrahim Idris, the chief of police in Kano said.

According to initial information, the suicide bomber tried to force the Airtel office gates open. The driver came out and exchanged gun fire with the security personnel before being shot down.

Initial reports say another office of a telecom firm was also attacked.

Fire-fighters are trying to put out the fire even as men of the military Joint Task Force (JTF) cordoned off the area.

Islamist sect Boko Haram has previously targeted phone firms, blowing up telephone masts and offices, saying the companies help the security forces catch its members.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RamaY » 23 Dec 2012 02:22

every 2bit liberal and secularist demands talks about the rights and development of Indian minorities.

I wonder why none of them demand that Indian Muslims have a say in Pakistan and Bangladesh's political and social roadmap, given the fact that a portion of india has been carved out for the Indian Muslims?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Yayavar » 23 Dec 2012 02:30

^^no it has not been carved out for Indian muslims. It was snatched for muslims who did not want to be Indian. Let us not ourselves mix the too. Maybe you wanted to mae a different point but the above wording does not seem right.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RamaY » 23 Dec 2012 03:10

Please suggest a better wording (seriously).

I think, based on population numbers, Pakistan should put aside 30% of the MP seats and BD another 40% MP seats for Indian Muslims. After all they are enjoying the territories carved out for all the Muslims of Indian sub-continent.

Perhaps GoI should demand that appropriate % of Paki/BD budget is given to GoI to fund various development programs for IMs.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 23 Dec 2012 03:15

viv wrote:^^no it has not been carved out for Indian muslims. It was snatched for muslims who did not want to be Indian. Let us not ourselves mix the too. Maybe you wanted to mae a different point but the above wording does not seem right.


Well then, can we assume that Kashmir Valley Muslims were the ones who wanted to be Indians? In that case why can't they have reservations for Indian Muslims who do not happen to be Kashmiris - by RamaY ji's argument.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RamaY » 23 Dec 2012 08:27

Today is Sri P V Narasimha Rao's anniversary.

May your soul rest in peace. Please come back and participate in rebuilding of Bharat.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby JE Menon » 23 Dec 2012 18:21

Yes RIP pvnr... A good son of mother India.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby SSridhar » 23 Dec 2012 20:12

PVNR's foreign policy initiatives have not been recognized. He deserves a lot more credit than most other PMs of India.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 23 Dec 2012 22:27

SS ji,
any details on the background of his removal? I am aware of the overt reasons and cases etc. But a lot of it remains murky as to the real reasons and driving agenda.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby JE Menon » 23 Dec 2012 23:01

And his treatment by the caricature known as the "high command" was terrible towards his end...

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 23 Dec 2012 23:57

Its still not clear to me as to how far the "graft" case was concocted or real, for example. He chose not to fight that much, perhaps with good reason. But it would be good to know all the angles.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 24 Dec 2012 00:55

Bji

The big picture is that the psec formulation has failed along with many global movements. India is doing course correction. Will take time to see it for what it is.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Lilo » 24 Dec 2012 01:53

JE Menon wrote:Yes RIP pvnr... A good son of mother India.

+100,
RIP PVNR garu.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby harbans » 24 Dec 2012 03:09

On the Delhi rape was trying to gather some thoughts. Had posted the following earlier on Nukkad: Please add/ critic/ edit and try make a list of what realistically can be done to better reduce danger to women on our streets. Though in this case the criticism is largely centered on North Indians, it applies to large sections of India where too the situation for women is not exactly ideal.

Post 1:

On the Delhi rape, trying to gather some thoughts. The brutality of it..intestines out etc..shook me to the core. It is also something i have been trying for years to get internalized even on this forum..i will again by mentioning a few points.

1. Death/Castration etc: Will ultimately result in the Killing of rape Victims more often when that happens. No permanent solutions are rooted in vengeance.

2. Death/ Castration etc: Will ultimately result in lesser reported Rape cases as most are done by close relatives..fathers, brothers, uncles etc. The pressure will always be not to report, even if the abominable happens.

3. Compulsory Death for Rape in our society will result in innocents too being hanged,

4. Rape is not sexual urge in many cases. Rape is a power urge. A demented 'power to hurt' urge. "ke kar lega Madar chod/ Behen chod"..attitude results in that power urge, particularly if in a group.

5. Though being a North Indian, i hate the above attitudes as mentioned in Point 4.

6. Feudal arrogance in our ethic system will have to end.

7. Points 4 (bolded) and 6 (bolded) are vastly prevalent in our Police forces lower ranking staff up North India. And also sorry to say in most

8. The MC/ BC lingo will have to be stopped in North India. It's too prevalent. It is the result of arrogance.

9. Interaction between sexes has to be more open from the start in School. Any snides MC/BC attitudes are to be dealt with at school levels.

10. India needs night clubs. Outlets where people become accustomed to the opposite sex letting loose. Night clubs to be responsible for the clientele till discharge. No nightclubs allowed without certified cab services.

11. Prostitution made legal with regular health checks for registered women on Govt support.

The above are solutions. These will have to be implemented. NO way out. Yet, the root causes are as follows:

1. India is full of people that have succumbed to 2 types of morality systems:

Type 1: Victorian Era morality. You will find a lot of that in Bengal. Not a major cause of rape here. But builds up a lot of frustrations in youngsters that have to grow up with parents steeped in those moral codes.

Type 2: Islamic morality: This is endemic in North India. The Khaps personify Islamic morality. Haryana, Western UP are worst in upholding this morality code. Purdah system etc.

2. North India needs to understand that much of the morality code they follow is rooted in Islamic mores.

3. The Khap leaders must be made to feel the power of the state.

Lastly the concept of Dharma as a VALUE SYSTEM has to be ingrained. More people here will rather quote Chanakya and Manu Smriti..and try and style Governance issues on them. They will not Rama and Krishna, who fought Adharma.

Pail de ga sale ko maderchod ko. That lingo is going to cost many vagi,,na's and anu..ses to be impaled by the likes of Ram Singh. Hate to say this. the core reasons for that woman suffering are rooted in these:

1. MC/ BC culture.

2. Arrogance when in power. 'Ke Kar lega too behenchod' culture.

3. Islamist mores prevalent in North India. Women as commodity.

What is obviously evident is that BJP or Congress leadership is inadequately coped to understand the real issues as mentioned above. All these above MUST be stated publicly and openly for the RAPES of our sisters, mothers, daughters to stop.

I am only trying to pen my opinion and hope we understand the root causes better. Ironically we need more interaction between sexes at a very early age under supervision. We need to analyze these issues in exactly this light.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby harbans » 24 Dec 2012 03:12

Post 2:

SaiK ji, i referred to death/ castration/ Lyngchi etc as just a template of solutions offered by BJP/ Hindutva and Islamist types as immediate solutions as panacea. They are not. Pale do saale Ram SIngh ko. Kya hoga aage? What next? Timur and the Ghazi's wjo invaded Delhi and Meerut impaled lakhs of people at a go. Spears through the anus. Most of you here have not read on execution methods in the past. Shoving an iron rod through an888s or vag999ina was very dominant in Islamic victories. That is what happened on the bus a few days ago. Now think why i mention Dharma is important, Why Dharma must be identifies as value based primarily. This issue is no more a vengeance thing Sai Ji, it is cultural. We have to identify the root cause without hesitation. Even if it means losing. The Truth in these matters depicts itself above any retention of geographical territory or economic benefit. This is about values, character. If we have lost that in some part of India,,it is not ours. That part of India does not belong..we have to reclaim it as aggressively as we will fight the Paki in battle.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby harbans » 24 Dec 2012 03:15

Remarkably racist and classificationist post, that! Wow! How about you moderate your views before asking others to?


You are right in a way..and i wish i could use more moderate language. All are not like that. But some generalization is overdue to reflect on the problem. Much like we do for Paki's. Lots of these Khaps and many who believe in their invincibility come out with eating noodle is the cause, no mobile for women, no shopping for them kind of solutions. Fact is those that come out with such nonsense are part of the problem..or as Darshhan ji mentioned even in friends circles this sort of conversation is within us..

"Daaru aur murga to ho gaya. Ab choot ka bhi intejaam karna chahiye". It is sickening to the core.


However to be really frank, i do see a lot of improvement in relations Urban-Rural in Gurgaon for that matter. A reason for that i think is in lots of clubs in Gurgaon that play till late and give an avenue for consensual sex. Lots of surrounding village boys serve as bouncers and get employment in many malls around. This has helped bridge gaps, understanding. Fact is many of these clubs are very safe and girls party till late without molestation. Any hint of unnecessary advancement or molestation is dealt with very firmly. These kind of opportunities in Delhi are few. I am trying to unearth Gurgaon rape stats, and i got one a few years ago..it was very small (about 25 in a year for a city of 1.5 million). So certainly more avenues of interaction with the opposite sex will lower crime.

A repressive society will always be abnormal. Men and Women are meant to interact. But the basis of that interaction must be rooted in respect. It's that lack of respect that i find very prevalent in the North. It's not so much in the South and the East. Basic degradation of values is endemic.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby harbans » 24 Dec 2012 03:17

Negi ji, many thanks. I am certain may be all analysis is not right. May be some generalizations. Certainly all North Indians are not like that, yet there is a pervasive perverted culture of dominance and arrogance. Look at the lathi charging police jawan on an unarmed girl or old woman. Rural folks and youth particularly are sexually repressed. They have mostly hung out in male groups. At some point of time particularly after drinks, it becomes a hunting pack. The only interaction with the opposite sex they approve in the pack is not a timid approach. They've been MC/BC'ing all evening over drinks and now they want a woman. They've hardly talked normally to a girl ever in their lives outside their sisters or mothers. Now there is a girl standing alone in jeans and top, they go berserk. They've some experience on the Salmans and Amitabhs hitting at women, stalking and succeeding with some persuasion and some songs. The songs all translate wrongly and are lewd in reality and they have no other basic approach in their inventory. So it comes out to looking no cops, no people to oppose and wham lets pull/ grab the 'thing' in the car and drive around. Dekhi Jayegi.

I've seen the way rural Gurgaon locals have approached girls over the decade..my take is the pubs in Sahara and MGF Malls are a success story. For those who have avoided them i would like them to have a beer, notice how the locals interact with the women or try and pick them up. 99% approaches are tame, not bad really. Don;t go by the language or by the girls' behavior, check the locals out. While i am not endorsing alcohol consumption (ill effects which should be advertized and responsible drinking ingrained in society), these kind of outlets do provide some relief and interactive environment.

To be frank i am acquainted with a lot of local Gujjar boys, they've served my parents as drivers and they are decent, polite and very soft spoken. 25 rapes in Gurgaon jurisdiction in a year for a populace of almost 2 million with i don't know how many were from Delhi, rajasthan or other parts i don't think is too bad compared to Delhi, though certainly the ideal figure in this case should be 0.

That is why i am centering on the following solutions:

1. Not to make Death compulsory for Rape.
2. Not to entertain Ban Clubs, Ban Drinks, Close at 1130 PM type of solutions. Leads to repression.
3. Tell Delhi to emulate Sahara Mall and MGF Mall type clubs.
4. Good bouncers inside and Cop Vans outside these areas.
5. Alcohol tests mandatory on exits from these areas and particular times to catch drink and drive offenders.
6. Concentrate on creating mechanisms that deliver Justice quickly.
7. Internalizing understanding that interaction between sex's is natural, but it must be respectful.
8. Making people understand that Sharia kind of justice and segregation of sex's results in searching the net for Donkey sex, Rape Sex, Dog Sex. Lets leave that for our Paki brethren.
9. Making conscious efforts to make less cool the MC, BC lingo prevalent in much of North India.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby prahaar » 24 Dec 2012 03:17

Harbansji, I agree with all your recommendations except the prostitution part. One needs to personally (via documentaries, at least 2nd hand info) to understand that what you are recommending is government sanctioned rape center. Because that is what happens in such places, with children sleeping under the bed when the client is present. Prostitution is not some liberal concept that is made out to be in west. It is cruel,brutal way to earn a living for most.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Charlie » 24 Dec 2012 04:47

AbhiJ wrote:http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?42108-Dawah-to-Bollywood

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthr ... n-required

The Dawah Machine is in full swing and the first to fall is Kadar Khan.


Spilled my Coffee... :rotfl: ...these guys miss the irony...true faith...besht religion...equality and all that....

Salman khan may become pious if anybody would put him in jail for long time, i mean i can still remember his videos from coming out from the jail, and his jailmaits said that he used to pray regularly in the jail!

salman has negative effect from his mother side, cause she is hindu.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 24 Dec 2012 06:15

On the 6th of january this year, I had written:

The sexual arena, discomfort with the body and erogenous zones, physical desire and its expression and social control - all of these are based primarily on imported and borrowed colonial values. The early Aarb geographers noted the ease with which Indian women go about "half-naked" among men and some of them bitterly complain about the "godless" ways in which the black-faced "hindoos" allow their women to be "exposed". Obviously neither Indian women nor men had problems with exposure from women.

But now, we have borrowed from the Islamic and Brit [Victorian/imperial] values and feel inferior and ashamed if too much of our "womens" bodies show up. We think exactly like the mullahs and the conservative churchmen stewing in their enforced perversion - that those women who do expose are "fallen" women - to be both treated with disrespect and degradation as well as to be enjoyed. If any in our family does so - we would be ashamed. We judge ourselves by values we do not question as to their origins....We are over obsessed with sexuality and gender roles. It takes up a space in our life that is disproportionate to all the richness of a full human life. There are so many other facets to the human experience - only one of which is sex and sexuality. This is also the impression one gets through our classics. There we see a total human awareness - of nature, universe, sex, and a multifaced interaction with consciousness.

This singleminded obsession with sex and sexuality overshadowing everything and anything - is a sign of severe deprivation bordering on perversion - and is a gift of deprived cultures.


a post in 2010:

This is in keeping with my general theory (based on observation) that urbanites come in closer contact with ruling regimes and adopt/adapt ruling regime's customs as a top-dressing on the underlying older cultural layers. This is reflected in language, dress, socio-cultural attitudes. The modern urban inhibition showing in the "chi chi" attitudes is a result of this supreme hypocrisy. Generations of these urbanites have adopted the Islamic and then Christian Victorian obsessions about "sexual" mores - and hence the merry dance of confusion and hypocrisy. I see a distinctly higher consumption of ***** material and so-called "alternative sexuality" and real-life enactment under cover of "virtue" in exactly the groups that are used to suppressing expressions of sexuality formally. More BDSM/group/swap circulates in urban underground among youth and married couples than ever it does in the rural sectors.

Is PMS good or bad? A very difficult question to answer. And marriage is no single guarantee that youth will not seek to satisfy their urges outside of marriage, or that once the desire is there that someone somewhere is not going to come forward to satisfy it. Societies which have strict controls over expressions of sexuality however show pretty weird outcomes - society wide paranoia, paranoid obsession about purity, organized and institutional violence, and a overwhelming tendency to let it all out on the women and boys (or goats) of "other societies" whenever chance arises.


The tragedy of what went on our societies - more so in the North than in the south, for centuries - have stuck to us. There was a phase in our history, when by the admission of foreign travellers, women were quite safe in public places. Things began to change with the advent of Islamics - as many Sanskrit texts show. The open and widespread practice by Islamics of capturing local women, breaking into residences and taking daughters or wives away, or publicly raping them - and finally putting them up for sale in impromptu markets, broke down the entire social and moral code that existed for male behaviour towards Indian women.

This confined our women to the house, parents were always on the edge as the girl started growing, and would therefore look for early marriages [a sentiment blurted out by a modern Himachali politician and much lambasted - rightly so - but he gave out the exact underlying social memory]. As women became less of utility in economic, and public spheres, girls and girl children became devalued. The birth and growth of beauties in the house could bring ruin to the family - as every local momeen Abdul would feel that they have stake in claiming the use rights of the non-Muslim houri. This would lead to the girl child being seen as a serious problem and better not allowed to grow to adulthood.

In every such society, historically, the collective processes of rationalization and survival or coping strategies imply that women themselves become accepting of this meme. They would come to accept other women as of inferior and low status [saas-bahu], and a signficant would accept the rapist attitude as signs of maledom, which even if unpleasant - would still be preferable to a more gentle "man" who appears not "man" enough [ a "good" man, but tame - not "manly" enough you know - a man should be like a lion, taking his "meat" etc - heard it myself]. Thus the entire society, both men and women perpetuate the acceptable stereotypes.


Strict enforcement of laws, would help, but In India various ideologically motivated "positive discrimination" theories will create immense injustices. For example I heard on TV chat show - repeated hype on "rape of a Dalit girl". In India somehow even rapes will be classified based on politically correct categories - somehow a rape on a "Dalit" girl wil be treated more seriously than a rape on a "forward caste" girl. A harsh punishment on the latter case would be lambasted as sign of saffron fascism. There could even be calls for a pseudo-quota system and consideration for minority rights in dealing with both accused and victims.

DNA tests etc., could perhaps provide one more tool in the hands of the powerful - to plant evidence to nail an opponent. Already such cases are known in the US of falsely implicating innocent men to protect someone the woman fell in "love with" after the rape. Suppose it is found out that the accusation was false and started with a view to penalize a man for something else. Will the courts harshly penalize the woman?

We need to tackle the social mores that derecognize the right of the woman over her body, as well as every meme that puts a price on the use value of the woman's body - whether through parents looking for the richest groom, or women selecting partners based on their wealth, or formal or informal prostitution. The way clans and parents dispose of their daughters even now - is based on exchange of female flesh for power, land and wealth. Women too become conditioned to accept such auctions. Lets acknowledge that both women and men need to get out of this thought that women are after all saleable commodities against money/wealth/riches.

harbans ji,
I think even under Maharaj Ranjit Singh ji, qazi courts were allowed to function to judge both Muslims and non-Muslims. He probably had no other way, since the Islamic regimes had practically destroyed older Hindu courts. But from this, because of the Hudood obsessions - through the Qazis' - Islamic norms might have been assimilated in the north. Greater Punjab, and therefore parts of Haryana and Himachal would be infuenced.

ShauryaT
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ShauryaT » 24 Dec 2012 07:16

^^What do you attribute these "liberal" aspects of the feminine in traditional dharmic society to? Anyone of the below a major factor?

A. Vow of Brahmacharya that guaranteed abstinence of sex till grihasta
B. Early marriage, even if nominal i.e: not to be consummated
C. Strong family, jati based protections?
D. Dharmic laws and its enforcement based on VarnaAshrama?

brihaspati
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 24 Dec 2012 08:27

Probably all of the first three. D - was perhaps not active until very late, and that too only perhaps simply splitting up the population into exclusive and endogamous groups. That would prevent some sexual interactions. But different historical periods probably had different mores. For example, early Buddhist literature is very critical of the "independent woman" who "goes around" in public - often hinting/insinuating that they might also seeds of "immorality". This would mean, that the non-Buddhists thought nothing of such women - and did not mind them. In fact some of the early material sponsors of Buddhist monasteries were very freely moving around and assertive women who also managed their own businesses - for example Visahka, a contemporary of Buddha.

Women were much more trained in martial arts at the time. Visakha herself was from the sresthi/Vaishya varna, but drove her own chariots, and was trained as a child and teenager by a famous husband-wife pair of military specialists. Varna roles were not strict apparently and women learned to be and society expected them to be much tougher.

Atri
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Atri » 24 Dec 2012 08:35

ShauryaT wrote: I am just asking for a coherent starting point - which is a vision document for what is "Hindutva"? Why is it needed? What does it entail? How will it work? Why is it different? What are its objectives? Why is it better? What are its constituent parts? How does it compare and contrast? What are its key tenets?



Haven't we covered this in Sajjana Theory of Deracination dhaga?

a just code of conduct of, by and for "Sajjana" is Dharma.

Shaastra OR science which deals with judicial and administrative aspect of Sajjana-society is Dandaneeti (also known as dharmashastra)
Science dealing with socio-politico-economic aspects of Sajjana-Society is Arthashastra (many are available)
Science dealing with personal and family related aspects of Sajjana-society is Kaamashastra
Science pertaining to higher and inner questions of deeper philosophy is Mokshashastra..

Sajjana people ensure sustainable existence and growth of all facets of ecology. They are people with what we colloquially call as "Dharmik mindset" (not necessarily all Indics are Dharmis and non-Indics are Adharmik. There are asuras in both sets and Asuras need to be destroyed. Yes prioritizing the elimination of asura can be done and IMO non-indic asuras need to go first than indic asuras. People can differ here, but on point that asuras (non-Sajjana people) either need to die OR become Sajjana cannot be compromise upon).

Vision statement of hindutva - Paritranay Sadhunam, Vinashayacha dushkritam Dharma Sansthapanarthay..... This defines and buttresses the Dharma OF, BY, FOR Sajjana approach.. All actions falling in Artha-Purushartha's domain to protect dharma (as said in previous statement) is Hindutva. may be we need to find appropriate name for it.

There is one more statement which was "revealed" to me, the statement I use on my blog - Aatma Vimochanarthaya, Bharatasya Vardhanay, Dharma Sansthapanarthay. I was told by powers that be that these three steps are related and relevant in this order. Without Vimochana there cannot be vardhana..

Vimochana means "Unharnessing".. We need to deracinate ourselves from the imposed aarthik and dharmik Sanskaras in past 1500 years. Once we do that our and India's "Vardhana" (growth, not swelling. What India is experiencing post 1990 is "swelling" for most of the part and not growth) will not set in at optimum pace. Without India "growing", Dharma cannot be installed.

Like Islam and communism, Dharma is a global concept. Rather Dharma is the oldest "Global concept" and "globalizing force" known to mankind. Although originated and revealed in India, it is for entire existence. India cannot be Dharmik when rest of world is Adharmik. It is duty of Sajjana (also known as "Aarya") to make world Dharmik, to install Vishwadharma (world of sajjana people, for Sajjana people, by Sajjana people) by destroying and removing Araavna (non-liberal, aasurik people and memes)..

We have discussed all this in deracination dhaga..

Regarding safety of women, immediate tactical measure is training our sisters and daughters in martial arts, and equip them with tasers, pepper-sprays, small knives (Gupti) and training them how to use it. Like they showed in film Kahani, a thin and sharp knife like weapon can be concealed in woman's braid and she should be trained how to slash the jugular of the attacker who trying to rape. Woman who has resisted and drawn blood should be publicly felicitated.

johneeG
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby johneeG » 24 Dec 2012 09:13

ShauryaT wrote:^^What do you attribute these "liberal" aspects of the feminine in traditional dharmic society to? Anyone of the below a major factor?

A. Vow of Brahmacharya that guaranteed abstinence of sex till grihasta
B. Early marriage, even if nominal i.e: not to be consummated
C. Strong family, jati based protections?
D. Dharmic laws and its enforcement based on VarnaAshrama?


FWIW, I doubt the that 'dharmic' society was 'liberal' about feminine. I am thinking that it was more 'liberal' than the Islamic culture(not arabic pagan, but Islamic) and catholic, but 'conservative' compared to the 'modern' society.

Also, the portrayals of foreigners(particularly the hostile ones) are not reliable or credible, in any time period, unless they are corroborated by the local sources. So, I would not put too much validity into some arabian saying Indian women roamed semi-naked. According to some ancient greek 'writers', Indians ate their dead, while the greek cremated them! Is it believable?! To me, its not. Those foreigners had incentive in portraying Indian culture in 'bad' light...depending on what is seen as 'bad' in their times. So, one should not repose much trust in those portrayals.

Being semi-naked, does not equal modern day 'liberal'. Nor does fully cover mean 'conservative'. In Kerala, traditionally women do not wear blouse, correct me if I am wrong. Its an ancient tradition there. Even some tribes in other regions follow this tradition. Yet, those people are also 'conservative' about their feminines.

It seems to me that Indian society given its long time-line has oscillated between 'conservative' and 'liberal' many times... from one to other and back and again. But, generally, it seems to me that it was 'liberal'-'conservative' or 'conservative'-'liberal'. By, Islamic and orthodox X-ian standards, it was 'liberal' and from 'modern' standards, it was 'conservative'.

brihaspati
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 24 Dec 2012 09:51

johneeG garu,
the Arabs simply found the more open dress styles - that is lack of shuttlecock burqas - to be "exposed". By their standards, even open faces would be "exposure". It is a case of relative degrees, and need not reflect actual nakedness. All I wanted to point out was that our men seem to have had no problems with exposure that later ones imposed as being sinful.

And in fact there are curious references to covering up the breasts - with kanchuli - as a kind of "entertainer/dancer/escorts" practice, and therefore not to be preferred by proper ladies.


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