Indian Interests

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brihaspati
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 27 Dec 2013 11:38

KrishnaK wrote:You have trouble understanding what you write. I'm not fudging anything, but accepting openly and then providing an explanation for the same.

You seem to have a great deal trouble in remembering what you wrote. On top of that you lie - for you have not provided any explanation about where the goat you found tone of superiority etc.

I do understand you will simply dismiss any and all fact on the ground to try and say that Russia is seen as far less a threat by the USA than the USSR. Hence of course the continued attempt to militarize the zone. I am amused at your denial mode in favour of a particular image of the USA that it itself does not always cultivate.
Yes, a comparison of US military presence in Europe today makes that very clear. No bomber sorties, no fear of Russian first strike. Nobody thinks that Russia today is about to make a dash to the atlantic. There's no particular image of the USA that I'm trying to project other than in your feverish imagination.

Does a comparison really make US attitudes so different from the past? Since there is talk of feverish imagination, I wonder whether you have a deeper commitment somewhere to bolster US image? Russia was and is no threat - yet Serbs had to be destroyed by the formation of Islamist states, Poland had to be seduced to try and install missiles to which Putin is still responding, Georgia had to be induced into civil war, and the Chechen jihadis had to be backed up by the US. None of this the USA even tried when according to you it saw USSR/Russia as a much bigger threat. When as per your dogma, Russia is weak and no longer a threat - yet all of this has to be done. I anticipate it will be your bullshit now about how in your divine and superior opinion none of this counts because the "fear" is not so obviously declared from the rooftops.

You will consistently refuse to see your claim about domestic tolerance for an identity necessarily implies similar tolerance for that identity outside the country in foreign policy context - is false. Actually, contrary to mythology with which you are more familiar with - Jews, especially the more enterprising ones among them were treated surprisingly well for very long periods of time in Europe.
Yes I will do so, because it's nonsense. That you make the claim
Jews, especially the more enterprising ones among them were treated surprisingly well for very long periods of time in Europe.
is telling. That implies that there was discrimination against the jews fostered by the state. And that selective sections of jews, during selective periods of time were treated differently from the rest. It implies that selective here was interpreted solely by whosoever was in power and was subject to change. In the US, Indians, whether on work visas, permanent residents or citizens have all recourse to law. Exactly the same as people of any other identity, religious or ethnic, simply because the law does not allow for any distinction on those factors.

No you will do so because you will push for a mythology. You are propagandizing a lie that law is unbiased in its formation, interpretation and application. Discrimination at the society or the state level has nothing much always to do with the formal concise statements of the law. As is being discussed on other threads on this forum, the same law which was used to enjoy a cavity search of the Indian foreign service officer, was not to be applied for a whole bunch of Russian foreign service officers - also not having the benefits of full diplomatic immunity - for fraud amounting to criminal offence by US laws worthy of arrest and similar cavity searches. Similarly, discrimination even within the law still apparently exists in discrimination against Indian immigration dating from a long dated racist law.

In your determined defence of the US record, you are trying to distort the history of the Jews in Europe, and comparing the overt forms and intensity of different periods of history in the formal quantum of violence perhaps. Your are deliberately ignoring the fact that Indians have been in the USA for a much shorter period of time compared to the Jews in Europe to apply your frivolous argument that "attitudes will be reflected in persecution over long periods of times". Relatively - the periods of "persecution" of Jews from the state side can be narrowed down to much smaller periods than they weren't- in your terms of violence.

Again it is complete bullshit to deny that state can carry on a policy - especially in foreign affairs - that is driven by ideological biases reflected within the society, but controlled in manifestation internally if it is advantageous for the state to maintain such pretensions.

I do not think you even do your homework before you take up your banner for white-Christian-fundamentalist spectrum of the USA whose apologetics for US reality also similarly hides behind a bluster of shouts of legal pretensions.

Here is a good anecdote that should illustrate some aspects of reality : [to which you will bring counter anecdotes of divine bliss of Hindus and Indians in USA no doubt - because it is your agenda to deny any bias on the US side]
http://thoughtcatalog.com/m-saccaro/2013/09/american-racism-against-indians-isnt-new/
I thought about those victims, and I still do each year on and around 9/11. The word “hellish” is an understatement for what they endured. But, as I’ve gotten older, I consider people who were victims of this tragedy in other ways. One of them was a girl who was in my class in 7th grade.

She was Indian.

But to Americans—especially 7th graders who were raised in a conservative area by conservative parents who couldn’t locate India, Afghanistan, or Iraq on a map, let alone spell Al-Qaeda—can’t make such nuanced distinctions at a glance. She spoke with an accent, she wore different clothes, she was born in another country, and she had brown skin. All of those things made her an “Afghani,” a “Muslim,” and a “terrorist” in the eyes of my classmates, even though she had been born in India, was a Hindu, and didn’t have a mean bone in her body.

“Why did your family destroy the twin towers?”

“I’m glad we’re bombing your country during Ramadan.”

And on. And on.

One kid even made a song about this girl smelling “like a Muslim” that contained other insults as well as japes at her foreign-sounding name. The abuse got so bad that she had to transfer schools. What hurts the most is that throughout all of the name-calling, the girl stayed calm and never retaliated. She tried to reason with her tormentors, and explain that she was a Hindu and not a Muslim. But there’s no reasoning with American nationalism, the same phenomenon that brought us “Freedom Fries”. The white-bread community in which we lived ostracized the girl’s siblings and parents too. They returned to India, no doubt with thousands of tales about the brutal truths of American racism (although the girl and her family returned about a year or two later, after the patriotic fervor died down).

Now, 12 years after 9/11, and only days after an “un-American” Miss America, I can’t help but wonder about how many other innocent Indian people were bullied, beaten up, or otherwise harmed because some misguided “patriot” thought they were a Muslim, because a red, white, and blue George Zimmerman thought hurting brown people was his duty to America.


There is a catch. I know your love for the word "bullshit" will probably prompt you to draw the straw - lookee lookee - they hated her for being a "Muslim" not a "Hindu" or "Indian". Well, the girl apparently very calmly repeatedly told her unbiased societal tormentors that she was a Hindu and Indian. With your penchant for explanation would you explain as to why they refused to listen to her explanation? I will tell you without any "bullshit" as to why they refused - because it was convenient for them to ignore her explanation, because they wanted to bash her anyway - knowing fully well her Hindu and Indian identity. It was a hidden hatred of the Hindu and the Indian, imbibed from their elders, and their families and friends and wider social circles that manifested under a convenient issue.

As you can see societal hatred can still express themselves, may not be in Spanish or Goan Inquisition time fashion now, but within the limits of "modernity" - it still can very much be there, and the state can pretend otherwise for policy and strategy - but the dichotomy can very much prevail.

Apparent tolerance of "Hindus", Indians and India in the USA does not in anyway restrict US from pushing any agenda aimed at harming Hindu, Indian or India's interests. And NO, ideological bias does not always have to show up in state behaviour towards a community that has transnational presence while it may show up very well in other regions.
The tolerance isn't apparent. The only person who has a bias in this argument is you. The rest of your claim is a rehash. So let me do the same. Any religious bias against some identity harboured and encouraged over a long period of time will show up in all actions of the state.

And your claim, like most of your arguments - is false. You have a very primitive and conveniently simple view of history and role of the state as consistent with formal legal pretensions.

Do not see the point. I thought you believed in the sanity of hussein haqqani? So you must have a great deal of faith in what the Pakis say. Are you denying now those you believe in? I am fascinated by how your logic flies. How is what you say Pakis say about secular-hatred-of-Hindus relevant to the current discussion?

Huh ! You're pretty misinformed about what Hussain Haqqani is saying currently. I suggest you spend some time catching up. The Paki case is very relevant to the discussion at hand. Fostering bias (hatred really) against a religious identity once started, can't be restricted in time, space or by department of affairs of the state.


Yes, just as it doesn't in most European countries, and especially USA. With the suspicion of gross underreporting or even mis-reporting of religious hatred cases in the USA, apparently 2/3rds of the reported cases are against the Jews. We now have people shoved out in front of an incoming subway train because they are Hindu-looking, etc. We will have to wait until 2015 to get the first glimpses of the results of the tracking by the FBI that will now include Hindus as a category among others.

The Paki case is not relevant - and not comparable. Pakis were formed with a specific hatred for a specific religion. USA was formed with tolerance for alternate versions of Christianity onlee in mind, and not religious tolerance per se. One of the reasons, that people are still feeling the need to formally organize into a body to push for separation of the religion from the state - which obviously they feel is yet to be achieved.

History shows that a great deal of tolerance is shown to productive elements in an identity even if that identity is hated or not preferred, and that hatred does affect external or foreign policy in apparent contradiction to domestic tolerance.
Bullshit. The only example you've pointed out is that of the jews. There is no comparison with the American Indian relationship.

Do not see much positives in that relationship either. If you can see all positives in that and sort of try to shove this wonderful opinion of yours as self-evident truth down out throats, I think we have the right too, to deny any positives for the "long term".

I have quoted two rather populist representations of the studies on religious motivation underlying US foreign policy. You have chosen very carefully to ignore them. The religious motivation, preference patterns, ideological biases driving FP in contrast to more economically pragmatic domestic scenario - all are so well studied and acknowledged by scholars, that I do find it surprising but perhaps not unexpected from you to be denied blankly.

Haven't gotten time to go through those. The only care involved in ignoring them is the call of liquour waiting for me in the balmy shores of brazil. Very little inclination too, I'll agree.

Naturally - they go against your dogma.

By the way, would you choose to clarify your much touted "long term mutually beneficial overlapping national interests" between the USA and India? I am still waiting.
Done that on the previous page.


Oh - these are your "long term mutually beneficial and overlapping national interests"? Have you had the opportunity to think in liquor-less state as to how many of them are subject to the US need to keep Pakistani state alive and kicking? Through all historical excuses like USSR, then no reason, then Taleb, then, AQ, then again Taleb, and through it all bolster the state which is one of the great facilitators of China in IOR - and that China which according to you is an enemy and target of the USA?

USA was the one that brought China out of its isolation, and strengthened it against Russia, effectively dumped Taiwan, and is one of the biggest trading partners of China - with ties that are changing fast in their nature. And you are selling the snake-oil that USA will be the onlee effective leadership with serious intent to go against China?!!! USA will be the first to dump its "allies" in any such anti-China front and "trade" these allies off for "mutual" advantages. That is the historical trajectory of USA. It always was right from the days of the founding fathers.

By the way - selective highlighting of Roosevelt's role for a brief period - in standing up to Churchill, should not be a propaganda feed as representing US "support" and "recognition" of the legitimacy of Indian freedom movement. If Roosevelt and a few Americans showed some sympathy for the Indian cause, they also showed equal if not more non-chalance and support behind the British position on the subcontinent.

brihaspati
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 27 Dec 2013 11:56

KrishnaK,
your warm and fuzzy dogma on strict legality of the US reality is based on such gems as the following :
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/15/justice/hate-crime-statistics/
"The data sucks," said Heidi Beirich of the Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks the issue. "Hate crime data as the FBI reports is underreported by an ungodly amount."

In 2005, 2006 and 2007 there were zero hate crime incidents reported in the state of Mississippi, according to the FBI. "States like California have thousands of hate crimes, and the state of Mississippi with its record of racial animus has none?" said Beirich. "It's ridiculous."'

Federal law has required states to collect hate crime data since the early 1990s. Congress has defined a hate crime as a "criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender's bias against a race, religion, disability, ethnic origin or sexual orientation."

But states don't have to report their data to the FBI if they don't want to. Four states -- Indiana, Mississippi, New Mexico and Ohio -- don't even have a Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) program. The result, critics say, is a federal data system that costs $1 million-plus but offers very little help to authorities who investigate, identify and track hate crimes.

"We can only report by the numbers we are given," said the FBI's Michelle Klimt, who says the lack of data could be because of a lack of state funding. In states that do have UCR programs, the FBI offers training for state and local law enforcement on how to collect and report hate crime data.


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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Prem » 28 Dec 2013 02:57

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 2995910890
India's Most Googled in 2013

According to data released by Google this week, "PM Candidature of Narendra Modi" was the most-searched phrase in India this year. In September, India's main opposition party, the Bharatiya Janata Party, named Narendra Modi as its prime ministerial candidate for national elections next year. Mr. Modi, the chief minister of Gujarat, is credited with creating a business-friendly environment in the western state.

ramana
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 28 Dec 2013 03:58

I am reading a biography of Dwarakanath Tagore the grandfather of Rabindranath Tagore titled "Partner in Empire".

He appears to be the prototype of the entrepreneur-philanthropists of modern India of whom the Tatas are the successors.

Wish RayC were around to discuss this.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby abhishek_sharma » 28 Dec 2013 19:42

>> Dwarakanath Tagore.

When he visited London, he used to have lunch with their Queen. He was that rich. If memory serves right, some brothers of Tagore used to like the British, and Rabindranath was not very proud of them.

abhishek_sharma
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby abhishek_sharma » 28 Dec 2013 19:43

From facebook

Image


“The way a whole campaign is being run against AK Ganguly, seems like there is an agenda behind it. And, this is what I want to be investigated,”
-- Dr. Subramanian Swamy

Ramasubramaniyan Krishnamoorthy: Lots of good things as justice for sure.. But that does not give him any immunity against crimes, if proven..

Like · Reply · 16 · December 26 at 9:01pm

Dr. Subramanian Swamy: Do you want to prove him guilty, without carrying the investigation ?
Whole Media trials, Human Rights activists, Feminists, NGOs and unconstitutional bodies like NAC (headed by Sonia Gandhi herself) kept targeting Narendra Modi for last 10 years, without quoting the facts, just sensationalism and propaganda.. What happened in the end, after the investigation was carried by SIT ?

Nothing!!

Do not shout and scout like Communist Prophet Kejriwal, who also kept on saying that Batla House encounter was fake, in-spite of SC judgement.

brihaspati
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 28 Dec 2013 23:44

ramana wrote:I am reading a biography of Dwarakanath Tagore the grandfather of Rabindranath Tagore titled "Partner in Empire".

He appears to be the prototype of the entrepreneur-philanthropists of modern India of whom the Tatas are the successors.

Wish RayC were around to discuss this.


Dwarkanath was an entrepreneur no doubt - but his rise was entirely dependent on collaborating with the Brits. Land acquisition for mining and stuff were often done with the help of the Brits in ways that would nowadays raise cries of bloody genocide. But the more significant factor is that he was a close associate of Rammohan and a key mover in the formation of the Brahmo movement with a strong presence of unitarian Christian missionaries.

Dwarkanath towards the end was possibly rejected by his wife [ apparently also a powerfully connected lady in her own right and who was "political" enough to rally the extended clan of her in-laws against Dwarkanaths' increasing Anglicization - or it was the clan who were jealous and scared of his increasing shift towards European practices and who used the wife as the pawn] and used to live separately. This coincided with his increasing adoption of British lifestyle, trips to UK and passing away there on one such visit. All sorts of CT exist about his death - the more lurid being encouraged by his proximity to "aristocratic ladies" of London, strange funeral, burial, extraction of his heart and sending it back to India - ityadi.

In a sense he was also one of the key gifters of later INC - because his "landholders association" was set up with a distinct pro-British, pro-empire - pro-good-relations-with-Brits platform [deliberately setting itself up against the more "Hindu" smelling "Gaudyia sabha"] - and this is the body that evolved into the British-India Association - which evolved into INC.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby sampat » 29 Dec 2013 02:34


ramana
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 29 Dec 2013 04:14

sampat Now you are getting somewhere!!!

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby chaanakya » 29 Dec 2013 12:13

http://seemasapra.blogspot.in/2013/11/w ... -been.html


Raghuram Rajan has been forced to clarify whether he retains his Indian citizenship and according to him, he has never applied for citizenship of any other country.

He has declared that he has a United States green card, and that he never became a US citizen.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Supratik » 29 Dec 2013 19:46

I thought so about RR. I don't think you can appoint foreign nationals to Govt posts.

One of the criticisms of RT is that his impression of the British was ambiguous.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Philip » 30 Dec 2013 19:01

Guys,"Comrade" Kejriwal is an alleged CIA "work in progress".Just see the quislings who are joining it.PMANE anti KKNM N-plant chief Udayakumar,who was recently reportedly injured in the house bomb blasts which killed 6 people in TNadu!The AAP is allegedly being heavily funded by the Yanquis and is the Indian equiv. to the "orange Revolution" in the former Warsaw pact nations,the Arab Spring and the Sarvodya movement in Sri Lanka,where supposed "do-gooders ,clean and pure" suddenly appear or are picked out as puppets when the ancien regime has become unpopular or is incapable of governing.

Watch the kind of people who now want to jump onto the AAP bandwagon and this space as the plot unfolds further..

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby kumarn » 30 Dec 2013 21:13

There was a news article several years ago (during Bush2) that CIA has been granted ~20B USD to "mould" opinion worldwide. Can some kind soul please provide the link?

Philip
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Philip » 31 Dec 2013 02:29

During the KKM N-plant protests,the media had an IB report that $100m had been shunted to dubious NGOs ,some of whom were involved in the protests.What is interesting about the Udaykumar-AAP JV is that it is the AAP who have ostensibly approached him! As Chairman Mao used to say,"watch the snakes coming out of their holes...then chop off their heads".The AAP's fellow travellers and the foreign funded NGO brigade are now gathering together to play a key part in the 2014 elections where they may play a key role in the event of a hung parliament,and further subvert the country in serving foreign interests.Kejriwal has been in the game since 2006! Read on and see how the US is destabilising India.

Arvind Kejriwal selected for Magsaysay Award
PTI Jul 31, 2006, 04.05pm IST

KUALA LUMPUR: Head of Delhi-based Parivartan citizen's movement, Arvind Kejriwal, was on Monday selected for this year's Ramon Magsaysay Award for his contribution to India's right-to-information movement and empowering poor citizens to fight corruption.

Besides Kejriwal, the other five selected for the award are Sanduk Ruit (Nepal), Ek Sonn Chan (Cambodia) Park Won Soon (South Korea) and Eugenia Duran Apostol and Antonio Meloto (both Philippine).


CIA’s Trojan Horse enters the Heart of India

ShelleyKasli / December 9, 2013
http://greatgameindia.wordpress.com/201 ... -of-india/

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby partha » 31 Dec 2013 03:22

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/US-India-ties-loses-air-even-as-Apollo-Cooper-deal-is-punctured/articleshow/28155335.cms

WASHINGTON: Illustrative perhaps of the air going of out of US-India ties over L'affaire Khobragade, a proposed merger between India's Apollo Tyres and the American Cooper Tires was punctured on Monday. The collapse of the business deal rounded up a dismal year for bilateral relations between two countries that have repeatedly pledged a "defining partnership of the 21st century."

The $2.5 billion deal, which would have been one of the biggest for corporate India after Tata's epic $2.3 billion acquisition of Jaguar-Land Rover, has been straggling from the time the Chennai-based tyre-maker surprised the world in June by bidding for the American tire major. But contractual differences and disputes over pricing and financing between two systems that even spell tyre/tire differently shredded the deal after some bitter contractual and legal wrangles.


But Apollo evidently hadn't reckoned with union troubles at Cooper, including a lockout in its facility in China. Chengshan Group, Cooper's partner in China, which opposed the merger with Apollo, threw a spanner in the works, filing a lawsuit against the US. tiremaker to dissolve their joint venture.


Interesting. So the Chinese partner of the US company vetoed Indian bid to take over. It is not clear whether it was purely a business decision or the anti India emotions were at play at the Chinese partner company.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Philip » 31 Dec 2013 06:19

Was this posted earlier? If so sorry.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/opinion ... 970333.ece

Indian Maids and Indian Spies Move to US and Vanish-to Live Happily Ever After
By T J S George
Published: 29th December 2013


In one corner Devyani Khobragade, aglow with disarmingly oversize smiles. In the other, Preet Bharara, collector of celebrity heads as hunting trophies. The unequal match is so smartly manipulated that all we see is an explosion of righteous indignation—indignation over a diplomat being provocatively humiliated and indignation over a housemaid being exploited in customary Indian style.

How neat. But this clash of emotive issues defies logic. US-India relations are based on strong economic factors as important to the US as they are to India. Lately the US also began seeing India as a pivotal strategic partner in its new East Asia policy. It defies common sense that America would throw all this away just because an Indian consular official paid below minimum wages to her housemaid.

What then is it really about? Let’s look at two known facts: America’s consistent hypocrisy and India’s continuous servility. The hypocrisy story is well documented. According to the Russell Sage Foundation, an independent research institute, 40 per cent of American workers in apparel, textile and repair services are paid less than minimum wages. As much as 41 per cent of minimum-wage violations in the US are against maids and housekeepers. Add to this the rampant racial discrimination against Latino workers.

Hypocrisy expands further at the international level. America is the only democracy in the world to not recognise the International Court of Justice at the Hague. This enables the US to do things that are illegal and still not be answerable. The US government mined Nicaragua’s harbours in 1984 in a bid to topple the government there. The Hague Court found the US guilty of violating international law. But America ignored it and blocked the UN Security Council from enforcing the judgment.

India, too, has tasted US duplicity. David Headley, who played a crucial role in the terrorist attack on Mumbai, was protected by the US from extradition to India. And of course there is Bhopal. The gas-leak victims’ voice was heard again last week. “The US is so worried about the rights of one maid, but it turns a blind eye to hundreds of deformed children who have been maimed by (Union Carbide’s) greed.”

Bhopal also throws light on India’s long history of servility to the US. Indian authorities helped Union Carbide’s culpable boss, Warren Anderson, to escape from India. Delhi took it lying down when a former President was frisked by a US airline and when its defence minister was searched while on an official visit to Washington. Never once did India protest meaningfully against such insults, let alone subjecting an American official to the courtesy of a cavity search. Is it because many of our IFS/IAS officials crave for a posting in the US? And our politicians love American hospitality? Sure, Delhi showed some guts by cancelling airport passes and ID cards given even to US diplomats’ families. But why were these given in the first place when America does nothing of the kind? US sees such servility as weakness.

These facts throw a different kind of light on the Devyani/Sangeeta case. The maid had good connections (her husband and mother also worked for US diplomats). She asked for permission to take up other work which would have been illegal and, denied permission, went missing. Perhaps Devyani knew what was going on. On her complaint, a Delhi court issued an arrest warrant for Sangeeta. Sensing trouble, US authorities surreptitiously evacuated Sangeeta’s family to the US. Then they humbled Devyani, successfully turning the matter into a maid-exploitation cause celebre.

Very similar was the case of RAW officer Ravinder Singh who was spying for America. As soon as India was about to arrest him, he was smuggled out to the US. Clearly Sangeeta was, like Ravinder Singh, a high-value espionage asset for the US. They and the maid of former Indian Ambassador to the US, Meera Shankar, who also disappeared and remains untraced must all be safe and enjoying themselves under American auspices. How easily Indians have been fooled into seeing as a human rights issue what is really a spying rights issue.


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Re: Indian Interests

Postby g.sarkar » 31 Dec 2013 07:10

ramana wrote:I am reading a biography of Dwarakanath Tagore the grandfather of Rabindranath Tagore titled "Partner in Empire".
He appears to be the prototype of the entrepreneur-philanthropists of modern India of whom the Tatas are the successors.
Wish RayC were around to discuss this.

According to a biography of Rabindranath (Rabindranath Tagore: The Myriad-Minded Man ) he (Rabindranath) was ashamed of his grandfather and his role in exporting opium to China to make his fortune. He has been reported to have burned all Dwarkanath's papers.
Gautam

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby partha » 31 Dec 2013 07:22

TJS George explicitly calls it a case of espionage. Evacuation of Sangeeta's family does look suspicious and gives credence to espionage theory. But I doubt we'll ever come to know for sure. A maid inside the consulate is definitely a potential target for foreign agencies. But the question is this - if Sangeeta was indeed a spy, why did her handlers let her file a complaint about low wages fully knowing that it will lead to a controversy & loss of job for Sangeeta which would mean loss of a valuable source for them. So it is difficult to say whether she was really a spy.

The other thing to note is how Preet Bahara was "used" in this game. If he really has high ambitions and has set his eyes on Washington DC, won't this actually discredit him? That he allowed himself to be so easily manipulated could hurt his chances.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 31 Dec 2013 07:26

I know all that. But DN Tagore was a pioneer and most of the business men who followed him were in his footsteps.
What I want to learn is how and why he did what he did.

Everyone can be holy and keep of the bad stuff but then when the devil is ruling how do you find space?
Partha, Preet Bharara wants to be Atty gen and then Gov of New York. Many New Yorkers are fed on the diet of diplomats abusing their diplomatic privileges. So all this is good for his plans.
when he runs for office all Indian Americans will line up for fundraisers.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 31 Dec 2013 21:49

ramana ji,
Dwarkanath was into many things and opium was only one part of his business empire. He was equally into coal-mining, shipping. Naturally, he had the biz foresight to see how the imperial global trade based on steam+shipping was going to be the main drivers of political economy.

But on the other hand, this would be natural for ambitious entrepreneurial Bengalis of the time. Bengal had always been connected one way or the other with long distance maritime trade, and it possibly use dthis connection as a means to deal with as well as a natural consequence of political pressures/aggression from up north in the GV and sitting on the cross roads of international land and maritime trade as in Gujarat or Kerala.

History of long exposure to foreign trade does impact on ideological adaptations to suit and justify the business opportunism and collaboration. Their family had obviously switched over from pre-Muslim regional regimes to Islamic, and especially the Mughal-Nawabi collaboration - on which some merry hints exist in the creative writings of the more famous of the dynasty - to abandoning that Nawabi connection and switching over to British [the Calcutta based rise of the family was based on stevedory/labour-supply to British shipping] collaboration. It shows a flexibility of ideology and willingness to adopt overt and formal elements of the "foreign" to make for a bon-homie/confidence-building with foreigners suitable for "deal" making. At the same time, perhaps they realized that the society at large was hostile and would always remain so towards perceived "foreign" influences especially when they do not see profits in it and rather exploitation. This is not a disadvantage but a negotiating chip for such families -so that they will try to retain this distinction/cultural-separation to an extent that would allow them to sit in the middle as the bridge and use each of the two sides - native and foreign - to balance the other out.

The ideological fallouts typically, as a pattern, over centuries - seems to be modfiication/adaptation of forms of the foreign that would comfort and reassure the "foreign", while retaining the underbase of native ideology. Brahmo-ism would be almost predictable in that scenario.

They were neither extreme "patriots" or "super-nationalists" - because that hedging and overlapping would go against both extreme identification with a "nation", as well as a rejection of extreme "deracination".

I do not feel that they had any grand vision of history and future long term strategic goal in collaboration with the Brits towards a rebuilding/foundations of a new "nation" - but theyw ere simply drawing upon a long historical tradition in a section of Bengali "forward castes" to seek political+economic power through using the geo-strategic advantages in terms of long-distance foreign trade and cross-junction of land and sea routes of economic flows. Who is that foreign power will not matter and it can change over historical eras. If it was cocaine from an Indian "coca", Dwarkanath would have traded in it instead of opium if it brought him wealth and the power from being a part of a larger militarily protected international racket.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 31 Dec 2013 21:57

partha wrote:TJS George explicitly calls it a case of espionage. Evacuation of Sangeeta's family does look suspicious and gives credence to espionage theory. But I doubt we'll ever come to know for sure. A maid inside the consulate is definitely a potential target for foreign agencies. But the question is this - if Sangeeta was indeed a spy, why did her handlers let her file a complaint about low wages fully knowing that it will lead to a controversy & loss of job for Sangeeta which would mean loss of a valuable source for them. So it is difficult to say whether she was really a spy.

The other thing to note is how Preet Bahara was "used" in this game. If he really has high ambitions and has set his eyes on Washington DC, won't this actually discredit him? That he allowed himself to be so easily manipulated could hurt his chances.


The handlers would whisk her away if the Indian side had come to know and her cover had been blown. It could also have been any past linkages of her husband. In that scenario, Sangeeta would no longer be a valuable asset, but rather a danger in Indian hands.

As for bharara, no this will not damage him. Rather he has proved his devotion. The US really doesn;t care about formal loss of privileges of info-gathering by more stringent or reciprocal psychological/circumstantial pressures on its personnel in India. It can listen all it wants to and by all past indications there would be eager beavers most willing to spill the beans to them from within the rarefied circles of closet decisionmaking.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Prem » 03 Jan 2014 03:02

http://www.bizzyblog.com/2014/01/01/pos ... ist-finds/

Positivity: Christianity helps women rise out of poverty, economist finds

A researcher at Washington D.C.’s Georgetown University has found that impoverished women in India are more likely to improve their economic circumstances after converting to Christianity.“Conversion actually helps launch women on a virtuous circle. A woman feels better, she’s part of an active faith community, she works more, she earns more money: the extra money she earns and saves encourages her to earn more and save more and plan and invest in the future,” said Rebecca Samuel Shah, research fellow at Georgetown’s Berkley Center for Religion, Peace, and World Affairs.Shah presented her initial findings of a pilot study looking at “patterns and directions where conversion had an impact” on Dalit women in Bangalore, India at a conference on “Christianity and Freedom” held in Rome on Dec. 13-14.Shah and her team studied 300 women who lived in a Dalit slum community over the course of 3 years. When they began their research, they did not know that 23 percent of the women being interviewed were actually converts to Christianity.Dalits are considered the “outcasts” of or “pariahs” of society in India.
“One is actually born a Dalit, you cannot leave a Dalit status. You’re born and you live and you die a Dalit,” Shah explained. “Dalits are employed in the some of the worst jobs…they scavenge, they sweep, they’re tanners. They do the smelliest, dirtiest work, and therefore they ‘polute’… hey’re ‘untouchables.’”Moreover, “Dalits are not allowed to go near a (Hindu) temple, or touch a religious object that is used in worship.”Because “they don’t want to live on the margins” of society, “they are converting to Christianity,” she noted.

Shah’s study yielded some surprising results about the impact of Christian conversion on the lives of Dalit women in “a very violent urban slum.”The majority of Hindu, Muslim and Christian Dalit women interviewed were illiterate. Many belong to a microfinance program which gives them access to loans which they then use towards their children’s education or to run a small business.The first “unexpected pattern” Shah encountered was in housing. “The converts converted their loans to purchasing houses, and turned dead capital into resources to generate additional capital.”Housing is an exceptionally important issue because “these people live in a slum community. It’s a transient community, they’re originally migrant workers, they had de facto rights to the property, but did not have legally enforceable title,” said Shah.
The impact of home ownership is crucial, since “by being able to own a house, these poor women were able to get bank loans, commercial loans, which they didn’t have access to before that. When you have a house you can get a loan at 3 percent, instead of from a money lender at 18 percent. So having a house is a very important investment in your future, so you can have access to very affordable credit.”The second “dramatic” finding in Shah’s study concerned domestic violence. A national family health survey in India in 2005-2006 indicated that 86 percent of the women interviewed nationally had never told anyone that they had been abused. According to Shah, this large scale study indicated that a woman’s religion was an important indicator of whether or not she would seek help. …

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 03 Jan 2014 03:19

Conversion to Islam is even better!

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby partha » 03 Jan 2014 07:23

It looks like 'intellectuals' are deserting Congress and lining up to join AAP. AAP is their new hope to implement grand socialist, secular schemes.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby member_28352 » 03 Jan 2014 09:35

In the time honoured manner of the Western Imperialists, a Magsaysay award winning, Arvind Kejriwal has been foisted as a major leader just in time to subvert the nationalists under Modi. Similar to how Gandhi was imported from South Africa to take on the nationalist trio of Lal Bal Pal, Kejriwal (coincidentally another bania) will now take on the nationalists. History repeats itself. Indics have this wonderful tendency to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Alas, this too is one more instance of the same.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Jan 2014 09:40

Throwing money at needy women and saying conversion is better, is the money was given without conversion the result would have been the same.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Philip » 03 Jan 2014 19:02

True story,Rs. 2 lakhs was offered to each family member by an EJ US funded entity a couple of tears ago! I wonder what the going rate is now.It certainly justifies the claim that "Christianity" (US style),by buying converts has made women richer!

If as the IB alleges,over $100M was given to shady NGOs to sabotage the KKM N-plant and underwrite the agitations where allegedly free biryani and 500/- was given to every protester,told to me by a local resident,then there is a vast never-ending gold mine where every conversion ticket wins a prize courtesy the US of A!

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 03 Jan 2014 21:58

X_post....
A wrote:

- India's Future: Rising Power or Mounting Peril?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby arshyam » 03 Jan 2014 23:28

Philip wrote:If as the IB alleges,over $100M was given to shady NGOs to sabotage the KKM N-plant and underwrite the agitations where allegedly free biryani and 500/- was given to every protester,told to me by a local resident,then there is a vast never-ending gold mine where every conversion ticket wins a prize courtesy the US of A!


Philip sir, not only in KKM, have seen this in Chennai too. Our neighbours were recent converts who would show up home every other Sunday with new clothes and shoes. Courtesy their church. And this was back in the '90s.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby KrishnaK » 05 Jan 2014 04:07

brihaspati wrote:You seem to have a great deal trouble in remembering what you wrote. On top of that you lie - for you have not provided any explanation about where the goat you found tone of superiority etc.
Me, LIE ? NEVER

I do understand you will simply dismiss any and all fact on the ground ...
Could you go easy on claims of understanding please ? It doesn't go well with your rants. Incidentally this is the pop-psychoanalysis/superior tone I'm talking about.

Does a comparison really make US attitudes so different from the past? Since there is talk of feverish imagination, I wonder whether you have a deeper commitment somewhere to bolster US image? Russia was and is no threat - yet Serbs had to be destroyed by the formation of Islamist states, Poland had to be seduced to try and install missiles to which Putin is still responding, Georgia had to be induced into civil war, and the Chechen jihadis had to be backed up by the US. None of this the USA even tried when according to you it saw USSR/Russia as a much bigger threat. When as per your dogma, Russia is weak and no longer a threat - yet all of this has to be done. I anticipate it will be your bullshit now about how in your divine and superior opinion none of this counts because the "fear" is not so obviously declared from the rooftops.
I think dislike and outright enmity are two different things. I never followed the breakup of Yugoslavia, but wouldn't be surprised if it was bound to happen anyway. The serbs didn't quite behave well with their bosnian muslim former countrymen. I understand you don't realize even non-hindus have a right to free and dignified life.

I do know the Poles aren't particularly fond of the Russians. I don't think it has anything to do with the US. America might certainly be taking advantage of it and why not. Incidentally the Poles have historically hated Germany too. And yet a Polish minister made a statement to the effect
I fear German power less than I do German inactivity
. It is up to the Russians to make the former communist states feel comfortable with it.

No you will do so because you will push for a mythology. You are propagandizing a lie that law is unbiased in its formation, interpretation and application. Discrimination at the society or the state level has nothing much always to do with the formal concise statements of the law. As is being discussed on other threads on this forum, the same law which was used to enjoy a cavity search of the Indian foreign service officer, was not to be applied for a whole bunch of Russian foreign service officers - also not having the benefits of full diplomatic immunity - for fraud amounting to criminal offence by US laws worthy of arrest and similar cavity searches. Similarly, discrimination even within the law still apparently exists in discrimination against Indian immigration dating from a long dated racist law.
Now I get it. I totally Khobragade's cavity search was a total affront to the Sanatan Dharm. I think the forum dharamsansad must get a yajna going to defeat the christian supremacists.

In your determined defence of the US record, you are trying to distort the history of the Jews in Europe, and comparing the overt forms and intensity of different periods of history in the formal quantum of violence perhaps. Your are deliberately ignoring the fact that Indians have been in the USA for a much shorter period of time compared to the Jews in Europe to apply your frivolous argument that "attitudes will be reflected in persecution over long periods of times". Relatively - the periods of "persecution" of Jews from the state side can be narrowed down to much smaller periods than they weren't- in your terms of violence.

Again it is complete bullshit to deny that state can carry on a policy - especially in foreign affairs - that is driven by ideological biases reflected within the society, but controlled in manifestation internally if it is advantageous for the state to maintain such pretensions.

I do not think you even do your homework before you take up your banner for white-Christian-fundamentalist spectrum of the USA whose apologetics for US reality also similarly hides behind a bluster of shouts of legal pretensions.
Get an yajna done for your blood pressure too while you're at it.

Here is a good anecdote that should illustrate some aspects of reality : [to which you will bring counter anecdotes of divine bliss of Hindus and Indians in USA no doubt - because it is your agenda to deny any bias on the US side]
http://thoughtcatalog.com/m-saccaro/2013/09/american-racism-against-indians-isnt-new/
I thought about those victims, and I still do each year on and around 9/11. The word “hellish” is an understatement for what they endured. But, as I’ve gotten older, I consider people who were victims of this tragedy in other ways. One of them was a girl who was in my class in 7th grade.

She was Indian.

But to Americans—especially 7th graders who were raised in a conservative area by conservative parents who couldn’t locate India, Afghanistan, or Iraq on a map, let alone spell Al-Qaeda—can’t make such nuanced distinctions at a glance. She spoke with an accent, she wore different clothes, she was born in another country, and she had brown skin. All of those things made her an “Afghani,” a “Muslim,” and a “terrorist” in the eyes of my classmates, even though she had been born in India, was a Hindu, and didn’t have a mean bone in her body.

“Why did your family destroy the twin towers?”

“I’m glad we’re bombing your country during Ramadan.”

And on. And on.

One kid even made a song about this girl smelling “like a Muslim” that contained other insults as well as japes at her foreign-sounding name. The abuse got so bad that she had to transfer schools. What hurts the most is that throughout all of the name-calling, the girl stayed calm and never retaliated. She tried to reason with her tormentors, and explain that she was a Hindu and not a Muslim. But there’s no reasoning with American nationalism, the same phenomenon that brought us “Freedom Fries”. The white-bread community in which we lived ostracized the girl’s siblings and parents too. They returned to India, no doubt with thousands of tales about the brutal truths of American racism (although the girl and her family returned about a year or two later, after the patriotic fervor died down).

Now, 12 years after 9/11, and only days after an “un-American” Miss America, I can’t help but wonder about how many other innocent Indian people were bullied, beaten up, or otherwise harmed because some misguided “patriot” thought they were a Muslim, because a red, white, and blue George Zimmerman thought hurting brown people was his duty to America.


There is a catch. I know your love for the word "bullshit" will probably prompt you to draw the straw - lookee lookee - they hated her for being a "Muslim" not a "Hindu" or "Indian". Well, the girl apparently very calmly repeatedly told her unbiased societal tormentors that she was a Hindu and Indian. With your penchant for explanation would you explain as to why they refused to listen to her explanation? I will tell you without any "bullshit" as to why they refused - because it was convenient for them to ignore her explanation, because they wanted to bash her anyway - knowing fully well her Hindu and Indian identity. It was a hidden hatred of the Hindu and the Indian, imbibed from their elders, and their families and friends and wider social circles that manifested under a convenient issue.

As you can see societal hatred can still express themselves, may not be in Spanish or Goan Inquisition time fashion now, but within the limits of "modernity" - it still can very much be there, and the state can pretend otherwise for policy and strategy - but the dichotomy can very much prevail.
See this is exactly why your claims of understanding are so funny. I've read dalits being treated like shit (literally) by hindus in India. Cringe inducing stories from forcing them to drink urine to gang rapes in front of spouses abound. The only thing that makes India is a place where the law doesn't get applied as it should. A Hindu indian in the U.S.A. has easier and more effective access to justice than a dalit in Bihar. There's plenty of room to improve, everywhere. Incidentally there shouldn't be discrimination against muslims either, just as there shouldn't be against hindus or christians. Those ideals can't ever be reached completely, but a clear difference exists between countries that aspire to them and those that don't.

Oh - these are your "long term mutually beneficial and overlapping national interests"? Have you had the opportunity to think in liquor-less state as to how many of them are subject to the US need to keep Pakistani state alive and kicking? Through all historical excuses like USSR, then no reason, then Taleb, then, AQ, then again Taleb, and through it all bolster the state which is one of the great facilitators of China in IOR - and that China which according to you is an enemy and target of the USA?
You should partake of some soma too. Hopefully will reduce your angst and help you think better. This is getting boring. That the US and India have a lot of long term mutually beneficial and overlapping national interests doesn't mean there are none that are divergent. If the state of Pakistan shouldn't be kept alive and kicking, pray what should be done with it ? And why doesn't India articulate that at the very least, if not achieve that itself. I know you can never understand that not helping India achieve her aims is not the same as having long standing plans to undermine her religious majority.

USA was the one that brought China out of its isolation, and strengthened it against Russia, effectively dumped Taiwan, and is one of the biggest trading partners of China - with ties that are changing fast in their nature. And you are selling the snake-oil that USA will be the onlee effective leadership with serious intent to go against China?!!! USA will be the first to dump its "allies" in any such anti-China front and "trade" these allies off for "mutual" advantages. That is the historical trajectory of USA. It always was right from the days of the founding fathers.
The US also helped bring Japan, S. Korea and Europe into prosperity after WW II. That path was open to us as well. None of what you state indicates that the US isn't interested in containing the Chinese.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 05 Jan 2014 12:14

KrishnaK,
I dont get it either: what I see is
(1) no proof that the Serbs treated their Muslim brethren badly before the Somali/Sudanese based Saudi jihad financing routes began to set up jihadist militia and mafia in post Soviet Yougoslavia. At that stage even your favourite USA called the KLA terrorists. USA continues to militarize CAR and Eastern Europe at every opportunity possible in a clear geostrategic ring/fencing in mode showing thereby that at least at the military-state level, in spite of pretending that it doesn't care - USA cares and fears Russian resurgence now as much as it did 30 years ago.
(2) You mock "sanatan dharma" for supposedly being affronted by Khobragade's cavity search? What does it state about the state of perversion of your own mind? You are not affronted by a cavity search in such a case? Or you are protesting that sanatana dharma should not be affronted by such? If you enjoy such cavity searches its your problem or your "soma" whatever you call it - but why bring in sanatan dharma ityadi into it? Or you have very complicated khujlis involving SD and cavity searches and USA? Or is your deepest hatred of Sanatan dharma also a complicating factor leading to irrelevant scattering of references to how fond you are of alcoholic beverages in posts?
(3) My blood pressure is quite on the low end of the average spectrum, so thanks for your concern but it is not relevant to the issue. On the other hand maybe you need a visit to the psychiatrist to deal with your anger at cavity searches being protested or disliked.
(4) Every one of your supposed "long term overlapping mutually beneficial interests" are likely to be left over fumes of the variant of soma you are immersed in. Hyper-ganjika of dreams in a sense. Because each of them are contradicted by the existence of Pakistan and its jihad factories and therefore its alliance with China, which in turn is one of the largest trading partners of the USA and one of the largest holders of financial leverage on the USA.

It is obvious as to what fog covers your vision when you support preserving Pakistan ad infinitum and yet claim that USA and India has long term mutually beneficial overlapping interests. Or rather by supporting USA and Pakistan in their obvious mutually beneficial long term overlapping interests you do prove on which side you are batting for. Thanks.

There never really was any serious American attempt at confining china - since it played on both sides of the nationalist and communist China right from the 1930's and thickened up the soup in WWII and even during the Korean conflict the politicians thought differently on pushing it too far with China. USA always looked at China as a potential fellow player whom it would hopefully be able to manipulate and use in a regional detente that also contained Japan and Russia. USA has a long history of betraying those allies on the more democratic liberal side who help it out most - beginning with the French even in the decades immediately after the war of independence.

There can only be short term mutual interests on some issues between India and USA - not long term and crucially national ones. Primarily because of US links with both China and pakistan. That you cannot see the scenario clearly is perhaps a different issue complicated by your hatred of "sanatan dharma"+protests against cavity searches +need to submerge all that khujli in soma.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Prem » 08 Jan 2014 09:10

Plase Watch this

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Prem » 19 Jan 2014 01:06

Asia's Week: Getting Serious About India's Twists and Turns
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timferguson ... and-turns/

Indian politics had difficult competition versus the other news from the nation this week: the continuing nasty diplomatic spat with the U.S. over disobeying rules in each other’s domain; the now-routinely publicized attacks on women tourists and citizens, and–in the positive vein–confirmation that at last India had eradicated polio (only three countries with barbaric Islamist resistance to vaccination remain to go).But Indian politics in fact is what is occupying the attention of businesses global and domestic, as a national vote approaches this spring. And this was a pivotal week in that regard: the governing Congress Party appeared to be throwing in the towel against the Hindu nationalist opposition even as a third force, a leftist-populist front riding an anti-corruption wave, got serious notice. (Yet still, national political eyes were diverted Friday to a scandalous affair and suicide.) the Congress-led coalition in the second term of Manmohan Singh has been a bust, with economic growth down while inflation has risen. Various affiliated politicians and their business cronies have been tarred with bribery allegations. With the party of his fabled ancestors in disfavor, we learned that Rahul Gandhi will not be carrying its election banner for prime minister after his mother, the ailing Congress president (a behind-the-scenes role), ruled out such a race for him. Meantime, the Aam Aadmi Party (AAP) has risen under “clean” crusader Arvind Kejriwal to elect him chief minister of Delhi and now to take its cause across the country.Like most protest-borne third parties (think Ross Perot), the Kejriwal forces are likely to have difficulty sustaining a national campaign. But they may have the effect of further solidifying pro-trade business backing of Modi. And it could, by shifting the voting patterns among allies of Congress, hasten a collapse of that Indian institution, an enduring if widely unloved–and partly transformed–fixture since independence.
Just like the fall of the Liberal Democratic Party in Japan nearly a decade ago, this would be a seismic shift internationally. That needn’t be a bad thing–and it could lead to a housecleaning and/or a quick return to power, as the LDP has enjoyed. Or it could mark a sudden and lasting demise, as happens occasionally in democracies, forcing longtime adherents to find new loyalties. What would become of the power base of the competent central bank governor, Raghuram Rajan, who is credited with at least stabilizing India’s ship since his appointment last year?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby svinayak » 19 Jan 2014 10:59

KrishnaK wrote:The US also helped bring Japan, S. Korea and Europe into prosperity after WW II. That path was open to us as well. None of what you state indicates that the US isn't interested in containing the Chinese.

This is known as economic colonization. India is too big for this. PRC is a experiment of the Americans and they have really no direction in the policy towards PRC
They have trained the PRC ruling elite to exploit the world and the new target is Africa.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Arjun » 19 Jan 2014 11:08

KrishnaK wrote:The US also helped bring Japan, S. Korea and Europe into prosperity after WW II.

KrishnaK, Are you suggesting these countries would not have developed to the extent they did without US involvement ? If so, which particular moves by the US are you referring to?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby SRoy » 19 Jan 2014 23:54

Arjun wrote:
KrishnaK wrote:The US also helped bring Japan, S. Korea and Europe into prosperity after WW II.

KrishnaK, Are you suggesting these countries would not have developed to the extent they did without US involvement ? If so, which particular moves by the US are you referring to?

Arjun,

Leave the troll. He is repeating the exact lines that is said of British rule...if there were no British rule, India wouldn't have railways, democracy, civil services and all such goodies. And many such lies.

BTW, these Asian countries (including India) were funded outside the Marshall Plan.

It was not the American benevolence but the free market that fostered faster growth in SK and Japan.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby hailinfreq » 20 Jan 2014 11:21

Arjun,

Leave the troll. He is repeating the exact lines that is said of British rule...if there were no British rule, India wouldn't have railways, democracy, civil services and all such goodies. And many such lies.

BTW, these Asian countries (including India) were funded outside the Marshall Plan.


While India was focusing on NAM, Japan and Korean heavy industries were being explicitly supported by US. For example the Chaebol was built up mainly due to the support provided by the Brown Memorandum of 1966 to provide supplies to the Vietnam war.
It was not the American benevolence but the free market that fostered faster growth in SK and Japan.

The free market has never been really free -- The US has always used trade and investment to promote its friends. We benefited from this early on -- our early 5-year plans met their mark partly because of the boost exports to the Korean war gave our industries. In the 1980s it was China that benefited from massive FDI and technology inflows, while at the same time the US was using textile quotas to restrict Indian exports and to promote smaller countries.
I'm not saying that the US does this from the goodness of their heart. Of course US does this to promote their interests. US interests change all the time and there are conflicting interests at the same time. This creates opportunities. Several countries have made use of these opportunities to build lasting foundations for their economy -- we have not.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Arjun » 20 Jan 2014 14:16

hailinfreq wrote:While India was focusing on NAM, Japan and Korean heavy industries were being explicitly supported by US. For example the Chaebol was built up mainly due to the support provided by the Brown Memorandum of 1966 to provide supplies to the Vietnam war.

The Chaebol were built up at the end of the Korean war, not the Vietnam war. The Vietnam war arrangement between South Korea and US for sure led to an increase in American construction work for the chaebols, but it was only one of several key factors for South Korea's economic emergence....The Korean war itself - with Western troops stationed in the peninsula, provided a significant impetus to business enterprise in S Korea. The Japanese occupation and the subsequent kicking out of the Japs and taking over of Japanese assets by South Korean companies is another key factor. The Middle East construction boom that led to major order flow for the chaebols in the seventies is a third.

Overall - the US role in the South Korean miracle is highly overrated. Similarly for the Japanese post-war miracle. Both South Korea and Japan would have been pretty much at the levels where they are today even if it had not been for the US. Yes, they did benefit from being the geographically closest Asian countries to the US which had emerged as an economic powerhouse after the war - but I don't see any exceptional role beyond that.

US interests change all the time and there are conflicting interests at the same time. This creates opportunities. Several countries have made use of these opportunities to build lasting foundations for their economy -- we have not.

As a matter of fact, the US role (US pvt enterprise, not govt) is far more prominent in the Indian software/BPO export miracle than it is in the East Asian one. What percentage of exports of either Japan or South Korea go to the US ?

Can we contrast that with the percentage of India software exports to the US - which stands at 63% ?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby harbans » 22 Jan 2014 13:36

In my spare time yesterday i did a small exercise on what we really need to see in a politician that delivers the goods for us as Indian citizens. So i made a small list of items. They included Strategic, Economic vision, personal integrity, etc. I gave them an assessment on each category from Poor to Excellent. IMO people are making really poor choices in choosing who they elect at a national level. Look at these results:

Image

Modi obviously is way up and so is Patel. Patel though did not have time to put up an economic vision, but i think it would be very similar to Modi's. But i put Modi excellent and Patel good only because Modi has delivered and Patel unfortunately did not get that chance. I developed the chart while writing on how Modi is not the typical run of the mill kind of politician one sees agitating, doing morchas, hartals etc. So i decided to include the chart in my post here:

Why Narendra Modi is different

Make your own assessments. Also how do we evolve the chart better and grade better. Inputs welcome.

ramana
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 23 Jan 2014 00:43

X-post....
RajeshA wrote:My new blog post, "Khobragade vs Kejriwal, or is it Bharat vs America"

Here a very short excerpt, read the whole post on the blog:

Yes the Devyani Khobragade affair. This is something USA has never done before: arrested a diplomat from a major power, on frivolous charges of underpaying her maid, then humiliating her with physical search and putting her in a cell with criminal inmates, then carrying out a court case against her, passing a guilty sentence, in the mean time, giving the maid asylum and “evacuating” her family from India.

Nobody could make head or tail about why USA went to these lengths to humiliate India, with a government whose PM bows to US Administration on most issues and tries to implement its agenda to the best of his abilities. Some were speculating that it could be a way to intimidate Indian and other countries diplomats to fall in line, especially as far as easily giving visa to their men is concerned. It is just speculation. I wonder if other countries would play so docile if their diplomats were treated this way.

Just to be clear, it is rare that diplomats of other countries are mistreated, so why would USA go to such lengths to destroy its relations with a country it considers a quasi-ally in its pivot against China, India the biggest democracy, a huge market? It is simply unimaginable. One doesn’t destroy relations with some country on such a minor pretext. In fact one doesn’t even go to such lengths or fall to such depths just to humiliate another country. This incident has a much bigger import, and that is, USA is making a course correction in its narrative towards India.

From now on the treatment of India’s urban poor who work as maids in homes of middle class and upper middle class would become the primary focus and lens through which the soon to be exploding Kejriwal initiated class war would be watched.

Arvind Kejriwal according to America’s plan for color revolution in India is going to start burning cities with class hatred and international press and even Indian mainstream media under American direction are going to portray it as something that was long coming, and how the domestic help was bound to revolt against their exploitation at the hands of the “rich”, ie the Aam Aadmi of today, the middle class.

Just read what the American newspapers wrote. New York Times writes:

Yet the incident has uncovered a gaping cultural disconnect between the world’s two largest democracies. While Americans reflexively came to the defense of a maid who the authorities said was subjected to abuse, Indians reflexively sympathized with the diplomat.

This is partly because middle- and upper-class Indians typically have their own servants, who often work long hours for far less than the $573 a month that Ms. Khobragade had promised to pay. But the bigger reason, especially compelling in an election year, is national pride. In the month that has passed since Ms. Khobragade’s arrest, she has been transformed into a symbol of India’s sovereignty, pushed around and humiliated by an arrogant superpower.

Ms. Richard, in a statement issued through Safe Horizon, a victim services agency that has been representing her in New York, said that she was disappointed to learn that Ms. Khobragade had left the United States. “I stood up for my rights as a worker and I only wish that Defendant Khobragade would stand up in court and address the charges against her,” Ms. Richard said.

One thing that has baffled American observers — in particular Preet Bharara, the United States attorney in Manhattan — is why there is so little outrage about the treatment of Ms. Richard. In fact, Indian newspapers routinely carry articles about abuse of domestic workers, and many people interviewed said the sympathy would have been with the accuser had the case occurred in India.


So whereas in India US has built up their proxy, Arvind Kejriwal, to someday take up the cause of the exploited domestic help, in US, American has recruited Ms. Sangeeta Richards and her family to be the tip of the spear with which every now and then it would poke India and its exploitative “middle class bourgeoisie”. We haven’t heard the last from her, I’m sure.

When Arvind Kejriwal’s movement picks up momentum and fires lit up in India, America wants to be on the “right side” of history giving support to the “exploited urban poor”, doing moral grandstanding, telling India that we deserve the anarchy and chaos. Ms Sangeeta Richards would then by the will of destiny end up becoming the voice of Aam Aadmi Party in USA, giving interviews to the press, slamming Indian state for trying to subdue the spontaneous movement by the “urban downtrodden”.



This ties together the external actors and internal forces shaping the immediate year.


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