Indian Interests

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Pratyush
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Pratyush » 11 Nov 2010 17:29

Bro,

Perhaps you have a more developed understanding of Indian politicions. But I cannot accept the statements you has mentioned as nudge nudge wink wink or even as jokes.

You need to see those statements as the hight of apeasement from these worthies. I think of whome is clear to you so will not spell it out.

Even the congress at the hight of apeasement has not make such comments.

As such they represent a red flag to me. Which to me will forever tarnish then.

You may be able to take it is your stride. But personaly for me the statements were unforgivable. I will always keep it in mind when I look at the men. Will always question them and motives.

As for the lady(Mayawati). She usually keeps her mouth shut on international matters. So if she opens up on international matters, it will be out of character and surprising.

JMT

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RajeshA » 11 Nov 2010 18:22

Pratyush wrote:Bro,

Perhaps you have a more developed understanding of Indian politicions. But I cannot accept the statements you has mentioned as nudge nudge wink wink or even as jokes.

Can't say that! But politics is politics, and it is all about keeping one's targeted constituency happy, first and foremost by rhetoric, because that is cheap, and only then be delivering any goods.

Had Mulayam's suggestion of giving 2000 crores annually to Pakistan gone through, he possibly would have achieved something very interesting. He would have given the Indian Muslims the upper hand over the Pakjabis. He would have allowed the passive Indian Muslims (protecting India's national interests in the international arena) a say, a leadership role over the Muslims in the Indian Subcontinent. I don't want to hypothesize too much about what could have been possible.

In any case, it was an innovative suggestion, a better suggestion than anything anybody else in India has ever suggested or implemented in solving Pakistan, including NDA or UPA Govt, or even Bharat-Rakshaks.

Pratyush wrote:You need to see those statements as the hight of apeasement from these worthies. I think of whome is clear to you so will not spell it out.

Even the congress at the hight of apeasement has not make such comments.

Appeasement of Muslims is a national doctrine. There is nothing new or surprising about that. And it is based on a certain reading of India's national interests.

Of course, many Indian politicians have also hitched a ride onto that bandwagon, so it seems as if they are the initiators and the reason for the Muslim appeasement. They are not. They are just the bees hovering over the nectar or flies hovering over the shitt depending on perspective. BJP caters to a different constituency and so they have decided to pass on this political stance, however even they are aware of the national interests aspects of this doctrine, otherwise they would be fighting Muslim appeasement much more strongly, especially as when they were in power.

The current national make-up does not really have an alternative to Muslim appeasement. It is just that many Indians are not aware of this de-facto position, and think it is up for change. It is not.

Pratyush wrote:As for the lady(Mayawati). She usually keeps her mouth shut on international matters. So if she opens up on international matters, it will be out of character and surprising.

In a globalized world, and security threats to the country, it is difficult to put up such fences between domestic and international matters. It is in fact important that our regional leaders start taking interest in international affairs, because India is in fact an amalgamation of regions.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Pranav » 11 Nov 2010 22:29

Sudarshan's anti-Sonia tirade leaves Cong fuming
November 11, 2010 19:05 IST

While interacting with the media in Bhopal on Wednesday, Sudarshan had called Gandhi a CIA agent and accused her of plotting assassinations of her husband and former Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi [ Images ] and his mother Indira Gandhi.

Sudarshan also charged Sonia for delaying medical aid to Indira Gandhi.

"Instead of taking her to Ram Manohar Lohia hospital she took her to a medical institute. Why was Rajiv Gandhi's Z plus security was withdrawn when he was on election campaign," former RSS chief asked.

He did not stop at that and described Sonia as illegitimate child who writes 1948 as her date of birth instead of 1946 when her father was in jail.

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/sudar ... 101111.htm

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Pranav » 12 Nov 2010 07:47

^^^
he also ... said she had blocked an attempt to remove Satnam Singh as Indira Gandhi’s bodyguard (he would later assassinate her along with another bodyguard). Sudarshan also asked why Sonia had “insisted” that the dying prime minister be taken to AIIMS instead of the nearby Ram Manohar Lohia Hospital.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Forme ... irm/710040


Actually a judicial inquiry report pointed the "needle of suspicion" towards RK Dhawan for the bodyguard assignments.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Jarita » 12 Nov 2010 09:17


Pranav
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Pranav » 12 Nov 2010 10:22

Jarita wrote:Video of Sudarshan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90y6mzd8OaI


He mentioned some Greek family :?: it was not very clear

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby darshhan » 12 Nov 2010 11:57

Didn't know where else to post it.Kuwaiti ship docked in Jawaharlal Nehru Port Trust (JNPT) is openly inviting people to convert to Islam from Hinduism.

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... am/710021/
A Kuwaiti flagship vessel docked at Jawaharlal Nehru Port Trust (JNPT) has come under the scanner of security agencies after some members of the crew were allegedly found distributing a 12-page pamphlet named Nimantran Patra, underlying words “inviting people practising Hinduism to a better religion called Islam”.
The vessel, CGM Everest, steered by a Pakistani captain, Sayed Hader, had travelled from Karachi Port. It had been allowed to leave JN Port and it had set sail, but it was then asked to return to port. IG (Konkan region) Parambir Singh said the ship has been detained.

The pamphlet is from the Islamic Dawa and Guidance Centre, based in Kuwait. The crew of 33 includes an Egyptian engineer, Karim Rehman, and two Pakistanis apart from the captain.

The incident, according to senior security officials, is the first reported instance in India where a vessel travelling in international waters has been used for religious propaganda. Certain crew members allegedly distributed the pamphlets among port labourers and provisions supply agents who had access to the ship. “They were not coming on shore but were distributing the pamphlets to Indians entering their ship,” an officer in Navi Mumbai said.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby KLNMurthy » 12 Nov 2010 12:43

Pratyush wrote:Bro,

Perhaps you have a more developed understanding of Indian politicions. But I cannot accept the statements you has mentioned as nudge nudge wink wink or even as jokes.

You need to see those statements as the hight of apeasement from these worthies. I think of whome is clear to you so will not spell it out.

Even the congress at the hight of apeasement has not make such comments.

As such they represent a red flag to me. Which to me will forever tarnish then.

You may be able to take it is your stride. But personaly for me the statements were unforgivable. I will always keep it in mind when I look at the men. Will always question them and motives.

As for the lady(Mayawati). She usually keeps her mouth shut on international matters. So if she opens up on international matters, it will be out of character and surprising.

JMT


Late Gen. Sundarji once said in an India Today interview (well before Pokhran II) that India should share its nuclear expertise with Pakistan. George Fernandes routinely shot off his mouth as raksha mantri, once telling rediff that we should have compulsory sterilizaton in India. I don't know exactly what Mulayam said or in what context. Here is what I think about this:
(1) these people in power have an inflated sense of themselves and are surrounded by chamchas who feed that sense (2) they are forever trying to crack the code on pakistan, but don't have the intellect to confront and accept the true nature of TSP (3) they like to speculate as a part of this puzzling out (4) they usually don't have any sense of restraint matching their position and shoot their mouths off like college students brainstorming over beer.
and yes, (5) they are all scoundrels and crooks and the nature of their job makes it nearly compulsory to be corrupt.

There are differences among them, but mostly having to do with their belonging to the DIE class versus the rustics who tend to have bad English and favor the liberal application of coconut oil.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Philip » 12 Nov 2010 15:25

The compromises that India has to make on the long road to a UNSC seat.

Pak panic & India’s road to UN
Pakistan is seemingly in panic over US endorsement of India's candidature as a permanent member of the UN Security Council.

http://news.in.msn.com/national/article ... id=4569621

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Chandragupta » 12 Nov 2010 23:28

Congress is playing the big game & BJP-RSS, are as usual, taking the bait. Instead of attacking Con-Gress' blatant appeasement of Wahabi islamic & North eastern christian terror, they are running around defending themselves from the anti-national tag. Hindutva organizations should realize that its high time they pulled out their heads from the sand. They should be taking the government to task rather than crying :(( over college fests.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RamaY » 12 Nov 2010 23:38

+++1

I truly do not understand the need for Sudarshanji's comments at this point unless he intentionally made them to divert attention from 2g spectrum debate and save UPA2 govt

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 13 Nov 2010 03:51

RajeshA wrote
Appeasement of Muslims is a national doctrine. There is nothing new or surprising about that. And it is based on a certain reading of India's national interests.

Of course, many Indian politicians have also hitched a ride onto that bandwagon, so it seems as if they are the initiators and the reason for the Muslim appeasement. They are not. They are just the bees hovering over the nectar or flies hovering over the shitt depending on perspective. BJP caters to a different constituency and so they have decided to pass on this political stance, however even they are aware of the national interests aspects of this doctrine, otherwise they would be fighting Muslim appeasement much more strongly, especially as when they were in power.

The current national make-up does not really have an alternative to Muslim appeasement. It is just that many Indians are not aware of this de-facto position, and think it is up for change. It is not.


I think starting from a reasonable estimate of a supposedly reasonable "viewpoint", we land up in a circular argument that "inevitability of Muslim appeasement" as perceived by a "subgroup" makes it necessary for all to "appease Muslims".

If we are talking of "actual conditions" then that should be listed out and explored. But on the forum this will be impossible, because any argument based on supposed "real conditions" that support "appeasement" will necessarily have to be based on the nuisance/threat/damage potential of "Muslims". Such a wholesale ascription to the entire community, will not be acceptable.

I think the real contradiction in this assessment should be obvious : if you really think that "appeasement" is inevitable under "current national situation" then it means that the muslims have the capacity or potential to hold the nation to ransom if necessary, or have obtained such great political or military power that they can force others to appease them. If such power is not based on "internal" - inside the country - then such power has to be looked for "outside".

Such power can only be effective "at the national level" if such power consciously can decide to be anti-national if they are not "appeased". Now is that a reality? If it is, then it does not coincide with the other position that Muslims as a community take India and the nation as the priority or over-and-above everything else - including devotion to religion or international religious affiliations.

Both cannot be true at the same time! And both require concrete and determined short-medium-long term actions. Appeasement is either a propaganda based on other considerations and not on reality, or it is a reflection of a real distribution of forces that can have coercive/military potential behind them. In either case, the method of appeasement or the driving factors ("propaganda" or "violence/coercive/conflict/military") behind such appeasement is unacceptable, and needs to be rejected and countered. By accepting the logic that "situation demands" is a passing of the buck.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 13 Nov 2010 04:09

KLNMurthy wrote
Here is what I think about this:
(1) these people in power have an inflated sense of themselves and are surrounded by chamchas who feed that sense (2) they are forever trying to crack the code on pakistan, but don't have the intellect to confront and accept the true nature of TSP (3) they like to speculate as a part of this puzzling out (4) they usually don't have any sense of restraint matching their position and shoot their mouths off like college students brainstorming over beer.
and yes, (5) they are all scoundrels and crooks and the nature of their job makes it nearly compulsory to be corrupt.

There are differences among them, but mostly having to do with their belonging to the DIE class versus the rustics who tend to have bad English and favor the liberal application of coconut oil.


(1) is definitely a reality. But it is less one-sided than you think. There is a vast underclass of "chamchas" in Indian society - a legacy of the feudal/clan/family networks. The chamchas are as much a political force on themselves as the politicians who use them or are used by them. In many cases, the chamcha's form a network which regenerates itself over generations - and a politician perhaps will not be able to rise if he/she cannot win over the chamchas.

So both the leader and his chamcha are shrewd businessmen- out to extract privilege, power, and material consumption througha mutually beneficial arrangement.

It is here that (2)+(3) contradicts (5). Scoundrels and crooks have some of the sharpest minds in terms of self-preservation and self-interest. If they appear not to have figured out the real motions sustaining TSP , then there is a solid economic and power reasons behind deliberately not figuring it out.

People such as Mulayam, Mayavati, or Laloo or even a Buddhadev in WB, do what they do because of real existing power equations in the GV, where because of certain factors - Muslims as a "theological category" and a social "class" - weild more effective power than their numbers suggest. That number is also not insignificant either. Roughly 25% in key electoral sectors. They also have a large proportion deeply involved in networks that generate revenue beyond official authentication - and hence crucial for electoral politics. Somewhat the same reason as the Afghan opium trade was crucial (and perhaps still is) for the west during teh Cold War - it provides maintenance of personnel not otherwise possible for purposes not otherwise declarable - all out of the radar and visibility of official support constituencies.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby svinayak » 13 Nov 2010 04:27

Chandragupta wrote:Congress is playing the big game & BJP-RSS, are as usual, taking the bait. Instead of attacking Con-Gress' blatant appeasement of Wahabi islamic & North eastern christian terror, they are running around defending themselves from the anti-national tag. Hindutva organizations should realize that its high time they pulled out their heads from the sand. They should be taking the government to task rather than crying :(( over college fests.

This is good cop bad cop routine to take care some of the inside groups in INC
RSS regrets Sudarshan remarks
November 13th, 2010
Both the RSS and the BJP on Friday expressed regret over derogatory remarks against Congress chief Sonia Gandhi by former RSS chief K.S. Sudarshan, saying it was “unfortunate”.
The RSS, which had on Thursday distanced itself from the controversial comments of Mr Sudarshan, on Friday went a step further by issuing a statement expressing regret over the former RSS chief’s remarks. The RSS had maintained that whatever Mr Sudarshan said against the Congress chief in Bhopal on Wednesday were not its views. The BJP also associated with the RSS stand on the issue.
Senior RSS leader Bhaiyaji Joshi, in a statement issued on Friday, said: “As the joint general secretary of the RSS, I express my heartfelt deep regrets over the alleged comments (of Mr Sudarshan), which had hurt the sentiments, and the subsequent developments that are unfortunate.”

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Jarita » 13 Nov 2010 08:07

^^^ Not so simple. Sudarshans statements have got people speaking. Such rumors don't die down easily

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Pranav » 13 Nov 2010 08:45

Acharya wrote:Senior RSS leader Bhaiyaji Joshi, in a statement issued on Friday, said: “As the joint general secretary of the RSS, I express my heartfelt deep regrets over the alleged comments (of Mr Sudarshan), which had hurt the sentiments, and the subsequent developments that are unfortunate.”


what was the need for the RSS to put on this display of servility. Let Sonia answer the charges if she wants to.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Pranav » 13 Nov 2010 08:47

RamaY wrote:+++1

I truly do not understand the need for Sudarshanji's comments at this point unless he intentionally made them to divert attention from 2g spectrum debate and save UPA2 govt


What if Sonia is a scam that is a thousand times bigger than 2G?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Kati » 13 Nov 2010 09:19

WSJ is running a poll: Should India be granted a UNSC seat.....

Please cast your vote here
http://online.wsj.com/community/groups/ ... anent-seat

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby svinayak » 13 Nov 2010 10:25

Kati wrote:WSJ is running a poll: Should India be granted a UNSC seat.....

Please cast your vote here
http://online.wsj.com/community/groups/ ... anent-seat


This is total mockery.
No country gets this kind of treatment.
They did the same thing with Moon Space project asking all the street people about India.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby JE Menon » 13 Nov 2010 13:25

Vote

Pranav
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Pranav » 13 Nov 2010 13:51

So Nehru killed Gandhi!!! by Shekhar Gupta - http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... hi/710384/

Here, Shekhar Gupta is ridiculing Sudarshan for suggesting that Nehru killed MK Gandhi. Unfortunately, there is considerable evidence that elements within the GoI and/or the British were involved (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassinat ... and_Gandhi).

The Congress and its mouthpieces seem to be banking on the ignorance, credulousness and naiveté of the Indian masses.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Pranav » 13 Nov 2010 14:00

Pranav wrote:
Acharya wrote:Senior RSS leader Bhaiyaji Joshi, in a statement issued on Friday, said: “As the joint general secretary of the RSS, I express my heartfelt deep regrets over the alleged comments (of Mr Sudarshan), which had hurt the sentiments, and the subsequent developments that are unfortunate.”


what was the need for the RSS to put on this display of servility. Let Sonia answer the charges if she wants to.


This should teach the RSS that servility never pays:

Digvijay says RSS like Lashkar ... - http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... on/710489/

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Hari Seldon » 13 Nov 2010 14:14

Is it just me or does it seem like GoI is using step by step playbook to ban the RSS?

Not that an RSS ban wasn't tried before or anything. And given the cluless disparate soup the oppn is in, an RSS ban is perhaps exactly what the doctor ordered in terms of injecting some sense, sensibility, unity, purpose, drive and long-haul commitment amongst the (few) nationalists left in politics.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby negi » 13 Nov 2010 14:26

Indian politics has become shrill and quality of debate has gone down the drain, in any other country remarks of people like Dhakkan Singh would have been enough to take him to court for defamation . BJP and the Sangh are themselves to blame for their state these chootiyas waste their time and energy in moral policing and that is why they are hated by the youth the recent overreaction over Roorkee incident is yet another example of the same. Sudarshan's remarks too were uncalled for, floating CTs without any evidence at this age won't earn him any brownie points.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Rahul Mehta » 13 Nov 2010 15:27

I agree with most Sudarshanji said. IMO, he should not have raised question on birth year of Sonia - that is irrelevant. But she *is* a CIA agent, and also a Christianist agent, and her goal is to re-enslave Indian economy under MNCs, and Christianize India like SoKo.

===

Sudarshan should have made a choice when he was in twenties - do you want to spread the truth and improve India, or you want to rise in an organization funded by donations from elitemen. Too bad, he perhaps thought that he can do both. Lo and behold, leaders of his organizations RSS and BJP are now publicly ridiculing him for saying the truth.

As per Sonia, she is top star in MNC/Christianist cabal which owns ToI, IE, HT and Hindu. So anyone who says that Sonia is MNC/Christianist agent will be portrayed as a joker by ToI, IE, HT and Hindu. Small guys like me have been saying this for 7 years, and went unnoticed, as we are small. Sudarshan will be laughed at by ToI, IE, HT, Hindi and all secular/progressive forces.

The Nationalist who support the fact that Sonia is MNC/Christianist will too get laughed at. Those who dont care, like myself, will not bother and still speak the truth. But the image conscious Nationalist will have no option but to speak other way - that Sonia is NOT CIA agent.

.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 13 Nov 2010 18:54

This is not the way. Criticizing or accusing a person is not necessarily effective in defeating the forces he or she is supposed to represent. You need to have the political opinion and mobilization of an overwhelming proportion of the society to defeat such forces.

If someone is upoholding the interests of MNC+Christianists and those interests are aimed at hurting Indian interests or Indian People's interests - then the tactic is to expose those interests first, and make the manifestation of such issues as a national issue. It is not so easily dismissible saying that TOI version XXX - representing various faces of Indian manufacture of consent by ruling elite - will prevent such exposure. it is possible to specifically target aspects of MNC and Christianist activities and policies - and any national level party can do this easily. Make this a political issue to which government one way or the other has to respond to - or take up a position.

This forcing to take up a position by the rulers is the key. They will either have to come cracking down or take sides with their interests. Keep the pressure on, continuously, so that they cannot play by conceding one issue in the hope that public attention will be short so they can salvage the majority of their interests.

If the interests of MNC/Christianists harm the man on the street, and the government under continuous pressure is forced to take steps that actually defends or protects such interests - then it disjuncts the ruling regime from the people. This was the essence of the "mass line" of MKG, and I am only focusing on this aspect of MKG- because I know RMji has quite negative assessments of MKG's role and motivation, and I am neither confirming nor dismissing his suspicions.

To tackle such forces as MNC's and Christianists, you need to reveal them as enemies of the people on concrete simple issues - where their interests and peoples' interests clash in open, public and visible concrete terms. Targeting this or that person is not as effective since it may at most lead to the replacement of that person but not to the defeat of the forces behind that person.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Hari Seldon » 13 Nov 2010 20:23

Namo namaha Bji garu.

If the so-called Indic nationalist element had a modicum of good sense (and good fortune) favoring them, they'd requisition your services in at least an strategic and advisory capacity pronto. That is, if they haven't already..... Time and again the clear lack of planning and street smart brains shows up woefully only ...

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 13 Nov 2010 21:02

x-post...
Ashley Kravitz wrote:No idea where this article should be posted :
An empress of India in new clothes
Like Sonia Gandhi, I am a Westerner and a brought-up Christian. Like Sonia Gandhi, I have lived in India many years and I have adopted this country as my own.

But the comparison ends there. I did land in India with a certain amount of prejudices, clichés and false ideas, and I did think in the enthusiasm of my youth to become a missionary to bring back Indian ‘pagans’ to the ‘true god’. But the moment I stepped in India I felt that there was nothing much that I could give to India, rather it was India which was bestowing me. In fact in all my years here India has given me so much — professionally, spiritually, sentimentally. Most Westerners, who come here, still think they are here to ‘give’ something to a country, which, unconsciously of course, they think is lesser than theirs. It was true of the British, it was true of Mother Teresa, it is true of Sonia Gandhi.

It is a fact that Sonia brought discipline, order and cohesion into the Indian National Congress. But the amount of power that she, a person of foreign origin, an elected MP like hundreds of others, possesses should frighten her. All the television channels report without a blink that Maharashtra CM rushes to Delhi to meet Sonia Gandhi to plead for his life. But should not Chavan have gone to the prime minister first?

The CBI blatantly and shamelessly quashed all injunctions against Ottavio Quattrocchi and even allowed him to get away with billions of rupees which he had stolen from India. Yet, without batting an eyelid, and with the Indian media turning a blind eye, it goes ruthlessly after the chief minister of the most efficiently run state, the most corruption free. Today the Congress, with Sonia’s overt or silent consent, pays crores of rupees to buy MPs to topple non-Congress governments. Her governors shamelessly hijack democracy by twisting the law.

Are Indians aware that their country has entered a state of semi-autocracy where every important decision comes from a single individual residing in her fortress of 10 Janpath surrounded by dozens of security men, an empress of India? Do they know that the huge amounts of the scams, whether the 2G, the CWG, or the Adarsh housing society scam, do not go into politicians’ pockets (only a fraction), but to the coffers of the Congress for the next general elections, and more than anything to please Sonia Gandhi? Nobody seems to notice what is happening under the reign of Sonia Gandhi.

That an Arundhati Roy is allowed to preach secession in India, whereas on the other hand the Congress government has been going after the army, the last body in India to uphold the time-honoured values of the Kshatriyas — courage, honour, devotion to the Motherland. They alone today practise true secularism, never differentiating between a Muslim or Hindu soldier and who for a pittance daily give their lives to their country. First it was the attempt of a caste census, a divide-and-rule ploy if there is one; then there are the first signs that the government is thinking about thinning down the presence of the Indian army in the Kashmir valley, which will suit Pakistan perfectly. And now there is the Adarsh housing society scam in which the army officers, at the worst, were innocently dragged into it. We know now that it was the politicians of the Congress who benefited the most out of it.

It would be impossible in France, for example, to have a non-Christian tell a Hindu (who is a non-elected president or PM) to be the absolute ruler of the country behind the scenes, superseding even the PM. There are many capable people in the Congress. Why can’t a billion Indians find one of their own, who will understand the complexity and subtlety of India, to govern themselves? Not only that, but her very presence at the top has unleashed forces, visible and invisible that are detrimental to the country. There is nothing wrong in espousing the best of the values of the West — democracy, technological perfection, higher standards of living — but many of the institutions are crumbling in the West: two out of three marriages end in divorce, kids shoot each other, parents are not cared for in their old age, depression is rampant and Westerners are actually looking for answers elsewhere, in India notably.

One does not understand this craze to Westernise India at all costs, while discarding its ancient values. Sonia Gandhi should do well to remember that there still are 850 million Hindus in India, a billion worldwide and that whatever good inputs were brought by different invasions, it is the ancient values of spirituality behind Hinduism which have made India so special and which gives it today unique qualities making an Indian Christian different from an American Christian, or an Indian Muslim different from a Saudi Muslim. It is an insult to these tolerant Hindus to show United States President Barack Obama as his first input of the Indian capital the tomb of Humayun, a man who slaughtered Hindus in thousands, taking Hindu women and children as captives. He even subjected his elder brother Kamran to brutal torture, gauging his eyes out and pouring lemon into them.

The tragedy of India is that it was colonised for too long. And unlike China, it always looks to the West for a solution to its problems. Sonia Gandhi, whatever her qualities, is just an incarnation of that hangover, an empress of India in new clothes.

[url=http://expressbuzz.com/opinion/op-ed/an-empress-of-india-in-new-clothes/222331.html]LINK[url]

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby vera_k » 13 Nov 2010 21:17

Rahul Mehta wrote:I agree with most Sudarshanji said. IMO, he should not have raised question on birth year of Sonia - that is irrelevant. But she *is* a CIA agent, and also a Christianist agent, and her goal is to re-enslave Indian economy under MNCs, and Christianize India like SoKo.


Sonia and Congress are in a tough spot over this. Under defamation law, Congress has no locus standi, and Sonia herself has to take legal action against Sudarshan to prove this is false. All other hijinks like burning things by Congress simply exposes the party's extralegal methods to scrutiny and criticism. And without a legal challenge, what Sudarshan said can be repeated ad nauseum.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby svinayak » 13 Nov 2010 22:11

Hari Seldon wrote:Namo namaha Bji garu.

If the so-called Indic nationalist element had a modicum of good sense (and good fortune) favoring them, they'd requisition your services in at least an strategic and advisory capacity pronto. That is, if they haven't already..... Time and again the clear lack of planning and street smart brains shows up woefully only ...


Will you join the forces. Every body is needed.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby JwalaMukhi » 13 Nov 2010 22:23

brihaspati wrote:
RajeshA wrote
Appeasement of Muslims is a national doctrine. There is nothing new or surprising about that. And it is based on a certain reading of India's national interests.

Both cannot be true at the same time! And both require concrete and determined short-medium-long term actions. Appeasement is either a propaganda based on other considerations and not on reality, or it is a reflection of a real distribution of forces that can have coercive/military potential behind them.


If appeasement is used as an important tool, then why should appeasement of one particular community for all time to come hold good. The biggest propaganda is that India cannot move forward without carrying Arabian memes along with it; that is outdated read of the situation. India always had and also will in future move forward, inspite of Arabian memes. The Arabian memes are mostly a sideshow and tail wagging the dog. Arabian memes are struggling (for that matter to fit anywhere, let alone in India); some of them are milking it in its travails. Appeasement is one such tool exploiting the situation and such exploitation cannot be termed as national doctrine. The biggest canard is that somehow the minority division should be based on religious lines. Once that false categorization widely enters the conciousness of the public, it will go out for a toss.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Muppalla » 13 Nov 2010 23:34

brihaspati wrote:This is not the way. Criticizing or accusing a person is not necessarily effective in defeating the forces he or she is supposed to represent. You need to have the political opinion and mobilization of an overwhelming proportion of the society to defeat such forces.


Hari Seldon wrote:Namo namaha Bji garu.

If the so-called Indic nationalist element had a modicum of good sense (and good fortune) favoring them, they'd requisition your services in at least an strategic and advisory capacity pronto. That is, if they haven't already..... Time and again the clear lack of planning and street smart brains shows up woefully only ...


Good points. Let me write somewhat related.

To me, the gent called Sudarshan is actually a plant inside Sangh Parivaar by [.....] . It may sound bizzarre but I have ample number of indicators to get to that conclusion. He made innumerable statements that actually helped the forces that are not in national interest during his tenure of RSS cheif. Just like his allegation about Sonia in Congress system, he himself is equivalant in Sangh Parivaar system.

His pet-baby Rajnath Singh is another gent in the system. The way he operated during UP Assembly elections and 2009 elections especially in UP if analyzed properly you will get the big picture. He created Varun Gandhi speech so that Muslims will galvanize towards one party as opposed to a possibility of split votes. During the assembly elections, he ensured that Kalyan loses and gets out of BJP. He actually declared Kalyan as CM candidate. Moles always work with a method that is not easy to understand for the flag bearing workers.

The smart thing that forces who want to destroy the sangh system actually have successfully planted moles in the hardliners section. No one will oppose and will listen to them with awe. The double whack is the guys who really work with a strategy are called with names.

Currently UPA's goose is really cooked and there are certain things that are emerging in the polity. This fellow suddenly springs up with something that is there in the grapevine for a longtime but gives it a frontpage attraction. This is only helping the INC as they have a tool to distract.

Ajit Pawar's rise to Dy CM and a possibility of INC depending on Jaya are the real waekening situations for INC. The strategists on "both sides" are working towards that end. If INC is not a major force in TN ( in reality it is not), UPA will be really vulenerable and has to adjust to a lot of consensus making in future. The consensus building framework is in national interest and that will weaken the Gandhi-family. It is the crucial juncture and we get these moles shouting over the roof.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby csharma » 13 Nov 2010 23:56

What Sudershan said might have been a warning to Congress that the Sangh will not hesitate to attack SG if they keep dragging it into terror cases. What he said was might have been the contours of a campaign. If the Sangh takes up such a campaign in a full throated way, I do not see how it can benefit SG and RG. JMT.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Devendra » 14 Nov 2010 01:24

According to Prof. Subramanian Swamy: "In January 1980, Indira Gandhi returned as Prime Minister. The first thing Sonia did was to enroll herself as a voter. This was a gross violation of the law, enough to cause cancellation of her visa [since she was admittedly an Italian citizen then]. There was some hullabaloo in the press about it, so the Delhi Chief Electoral Officer got her name deleted in 1982. But in January 1983, she again enrolled herself as a voter even while as a foreigner [she first applied for citizenship in April 1983]"
Proof is given here: http://www.janataparty.org/annexures/ann15p61.html

He has given many interesting details about Sonia Gandhi on his website. (with some degree of proof). Of them the false affidavit in Rai-bareli is very interesting.
Last edited by Devendra on 14 Nov 2010 02:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RajeshA » 14 Nov 2010 02:01

brihaspati wrote:
RajeshA wrote
Appeasement of Muslims is a national doctrine. There is nothing new or surprising about that. And it is based on a certain reading of India's national interests.

Of course, many Indian politicians have also hitched a ride onto that bandwagon, so it seems as if they are the initiators and the reason for the Muslim appeasement. They are not. They are just the bees hovering over the nectar or flies hovering over the shitt depending on perspective. BJP caters to a different constituency and so they have decided to pass on this political stance, however even they are aware of the national interests aspects of this doctrine, otherwise they would be fighting Muslim appeasement much more strongly, especially as when they were in power.

The current national make-up does not really have an alternative to Muslim appeasement. It is just that many Indians are not aware of this de-facto position, and think it is up for change. It is not.


I think starting from a reasonable estimate of a supposedly reasonable "viewpoint", we land up in a circular argument that "inevitability of Muslim appeasement" as perceived by a "subgroup" makes it necessary for all to "appease Muslims".


brihaspati garu,
I'm sorry, I missed this post of yours.

First of all, my statement pertains to simply reality. I stated that "appeasement is a national doctrine" simply on the basis of my general observation. It has been there from almost the starting of our modern history. So simply on the basis that it is a part of reality and despite huge events such as Partition continues to be part of our national doctrine, it means nobody from amongst our national leadership in the last 63 years has deemed it 'undesirable'. Some may have thought of it as 'unnecessary evil' and have left it unchanged. But nobody has with determination tried to cleanse the national polity of this phenomenon of "Muslim appeasement".

Secondly I'd like to say, that the more dangerous phenomenon is not "Muslim appeasement" but rather "Islamist appeasement". Many of our politicians and political parties have also dabbled in the latter, perhaps not making any distinction between the two. Whereas "Muslim appeasement" can be tolerated by the national polity, as has been the case up till now, "Islamist appeasement" would be throwing a burning match-stick on the very fabric of Indian statehood and nation. So I would like to make that distinction when commenting on this issue.

Coming to your comments, I don't think it is necessary for "all" to abide by this national doctrine. For the following reasons:
  1. As you mention, it is the freedom to choose one's support for any doctrine.
  2. The subgroup has probably not presented the case succinctly, as to why this doctrine is necessary. This is so for the very real reason, that the subgroup also wants to benefit from this doctrine once it is considered necessary and deemed inevitable by them. So they present their accession to this doctrine, as not a decision made out of necessity but rather one made out of conviction. So these politicians present themselves as the biggest friends of the Muslims and ask for their votes. It would be stupid for them to not eat the cake if it is being offered to them. So the case for this national doctrine is left unmade and unpresented by this subgroup. So why would the "group" support a case, the subgroup refuses to make, but still supports.
  3. Even if the group does not agree with this "national doctrine", empirically speaking, from history, there is not much the group can do about it.
  4. Even the so-called opposition is IMHO a part of this national strategy of Muslim Appeasement. The opposition, BJP, is there to play the 'bad cop', to INC's 'good cop'. So the 'secularist' faction is telling the Muslims, "take the appeasement, but please behave so that the secularists can continue to get concessions for the Muslims. If you misbehave then the BJP would make hay, and your perks may suffer. So please don't get too cocky". BJP makes the right noises to scare the Muslims into staying in the 'secularist' camp, and not jump into the 'Islamist' camp. More or less, it has worked. So BJP provides the necessary balance to make this national doctrine a functioning doctrine. So if BJP too is supportive of this national doctrine in its own way, then does it really help getting rid of "Muslim appeasement" if one joins them for that very purpose?!

brihaspati wrote:If we are talking of "actual conditions" then that should be listed out and explored. But on the forum this will be impossible, because any argument based on supposed "real conditions" that support "appeasement" will necessarily have to be based on the nuisance/threat/damage potential of "Muslims". Such a wholesale ascription to the entire community, will not be acceptable.

I think the real contradiction in this assessment should be obvious : if you really think that "appeasement" is inevitable under "current national situation" then it means that the muslims have the capacity or potential to hold the nation to ransom if necessary, or have obtained such great political or military power that they can force others to appease them. If such power is not based on "internal" - inside the country - then such power has to be looked for "outside".

Such power can only be effective "at the national level" if such power consciously can decide to be anti-national if they are not "appeased". Now is that a reality? If it is, then it does not coincide with the other position that Muslims as a community take India and the nation as the priority or over-and-above everything else - including devotion to religion or international religious affiliations.

Both cannot be true at the same time! And both require concrete and determined short-medium-long term actions. Appeasement is either a propaganda based on other considerations and not on reality, or it is a reflection of a real distribution of forces that can have coercive/military potential behind them. In either case, the method of appeasement or the driving factors ("propaganda" or "violence/coercive/conflict/military") behind such appeasement is unacceptable, and needs to be rejected and countered. By accepting the logic that "situation demands" is a passing of the buck.


brihaspati garu,
in Germany when one discusses with the centrist parties about the raison d'être behind Harz IV (social security) dole, the common refrain is that if one would not pay off the "socially weak", they would become criminals and then it would be far more difficult and costly to subdue the social disturbances. So it is an acknowledgement of the nuisance value of the freeloaders. In order to contain that nuisance value, there is "freeloader appeasement".

In USA, in order to sustain the purchasing power of the poor classes, both credit and consumables were made cheap and for that USA allowed itself to be indebted to China. So China was used in order to sustain "social peace" in USA. Though I admit, it is a poor policy.

I also sometimes wonder why there is so much in form of charity and donations flooding to Islamist and Jihadist groups from all over the Arab world, and why all those shiny buildings in Dubai are standing and new ones built. Why are the Jihadis not attacking UAE, or Qatar, or Bahrain? Are they being paid off?

So I think, the elite and middle classes do some form of "appeasement" of the most inflammable group, for the sake of "social peace", which allows the whole nation to escape being bogged down by violent elements in society and to proceed to do nation building and grow.

One could consider "Muslim appeasement" in this category, if one wishes to. So to your rhetorical question whether the Indian Muslims are capable or have the potential for violence or nuisance making, I would respond, "Most definitely! Of course they have!"

"Victimhood, Entitlement, Aggressive Potential and Freeloader Spirit" in a subgroup are the prerequisites for eligibility to appeasement. That was and is the "current national situation".

Of course, "Muslim Appeasement" is also used for the purposes of propaganda. We would be stupid not to use it as such.

If one can shut down these prerequisites amongst the Indian Muslims, the necessity for Muslim appeasement would go down significantly. There may still be efforts by Indian politicians at "Muslim Appeasement", but these would be countered by Muslims themselves, as constituting "condescending, prejudiced and contemptuous" behavior towards Indian Muslims. But alas, we are far from there still. I did make some suggestions on this issue in the "Peaceful Consolidation of the Indian Subcontinent" series.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 14 Nov 2010 02:55

RajeshAji,
that does not bring us to the crux of the question I tried to ask : do the "Muslim" as a subgroup really has concrete evidence of showing themselves as conscious and willing to use their "nuisance value" - if any? Answering this question either way is going to be tricky. If "yes", then it still leaves the question of inevitability of appeasement - open. Even if there is real nuisance value, appeasement is not the only answer possible! If the answer is "No", then the whole thing becomes a propaganda - a deliberate building up of the image of "so and so" has "nuisance" value, so that certain groups can be manipulated and used as an excuse for obtaining power over the rashtra.

As for distinction between the "community" and its "ism" - that is another tricky issue. Depending on the scale and focus of observation, any argument can be made in favour of both "has distinctions" and "has no distinction whatsoever". So the hypothesis has to be tested. The Partition showed that as a community, they may not mobilize against the "-ism" to such an extent that it checks/neutralizes/combats in concrete terms what the "-ism" demands. Subsequent reactions within the Indian rashtra shows that in parts where there they might have perceptions of complete immunity - they will still not challenge atrocities demanded and justified by the "-ism" as in '89 Kashmir Valley, or recently in God's own country or land of the Gangeridae.

So yes, in certain aspects the community may not appear to be common to the "-ism", for example they may not overtly share in the fetish of certain desert cultures about preferred zones of depilation, or that they may not insist on this or that aspect of the Hidaya as the more concentrated purity of more "-ismic" lands do, but on other aspects - there does seem to be a common sponsorship of "ism". For example we do not see as vehement and violent rioting and mob-action against Paki action in Kargil or Mumbai 2008, as we see against Tasleema, or against Israeli action in Gaza. Tasleema and '89 KV illustrate the point nicely. BD Islamists have some formal logical justification to rail against Tasleema - because their abuse of Hindus were being exposed, and because they thought of their country as Islam's land - so they felt outraged that someone was protesting what was after all solidly justifiable by the impeccable record and recommendations of the "ism" itself against non-muslims. But why did Indian Muslims have to also mobilize against Tasleema - if she was only criticizing a foreign nation, and that too protesting atrocities on a community in that country that was majority and neighbours and fellow citizens in India? Why was there no violent mobbing and rioting of the order undertaken against Tasleema - in '89, when - let us assume it was all Paki and foreign sponsored atrocities on Kashmiri non-muslims? The "trauma" of Ayodhya was still 3 years in the future - and there was no obvious rioting/abuse of Muslims as a build up to '89!

So at crucial points of history - where it means taking up positions - and showing the seriousness of intent - concerted and concrete actions by the community only seem to take place when there is a perception of "ism" being affected. It remains to be proved that any concept of nationhood/cross-community friendship and "co-habitation" of long order - will really take priority over "-ism" when choices or options are strictly restricted.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby arjunm » 14 Nov 2010 05:38

some body named Mr.Krishna wrote this about Sonia Gandhi in his reply to an article. And there he mentioned the Conspiracy of killing of Swedish PM Olof Palme and, in a book later published named "Blood in the snow" which linked that assassination with Bofors scam-

Rajiv married Antonia Maino alias Sonia in 1968. Sonia was planted by the secret group P2 of Italy, Archbishop Marcincus who was right hand man of Pope.Thus Sonia has contacts with Italian spy agencies. RAW was forced into accepting liaison with the Italian spy agencies by spymistress Sonia Gandhi and she arranged the first clandestine meeting between RAW spies and Italian spies. Sonia is not an innocent and devout housewife, but is a member of the Italian spy agency and has deep contact with the Italian spy agencies, Spanish, Swiss and other spy agencies while living in the Prime Minister Indiras household. Indir’a Ambassador car was made bullet-proof in 1985, by a German company that was brokered by Sonias sister Anushas husband Walter Winci. Sonia did not trust Indian security system. Sonia is linked to the Italian spies and was bringing about spy connections in the 1980s which is a highly skilled and scary business. But she always pretended to be an innocent housewife.
Assassins of the West are working for Sonia Gandhi. Rajiv and Olof Palme of Sweden cooked up $1.3 billion Bofors deal and while strolling in a Delhi garden. A bribe of 3% ($250 million) was for Rajiv through A.E. Services and when Olof Palme got an inkling of the bribe he was shot in the back and killed at close range in1986 by a lone man who was never caught. A book Blood on the Snow, The Killing of Olof Palme by Jan Bondeson claims that the murder is linked to Bofors deal. Of the $250 million in bribes paid the known recipients are for $40 million was for Quattrocchi and his wife, Maria, and Washeshar Nath Chadha and his wife, Kanta. This mafia link may also explain the elimination of many prominent second rank congressmen who would have posed a challenge to the leadership of Sonia, when she took over the congress party, by physically throwing out the previous congress president.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby shiv » 14 Nov 2010 05:56

arjunm wrote:Rajiv married Antonia Maino alias Sonia in 1968. Sonia was planted by the secret group P2 of Italy, Archbishop Marcincus who was right hand man of Pope.Thus Sonia has contacts with Italian spy agencies. RAW was forced into accepting liaison with the Italian spy agencies by spymistress Sonia Gandhi


What is the proof that RAW was "forced" here? Maybe RAW is anti-national and can easily be convinced.

See the Christianists are clever. They colluded with the Muslims to create Pakistan. We know very well how the communists too are working against India. It is only Hindus who are stupid. What fascinates me is how the mere act of changing one's faith to one God (or no god, like commies) can give so much power and influence over the world. Truly we have been doing the wrong things in India for all these millennia.

BRF ahead of curve?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RamaY » 14 Nov 2010 06:11

Pranav wrote:
RamaY wrote:+++1

I truly do not understand the need for Sudarshanji's comments at this point unless he intentionally made them to divert attention from 2g spectrum debate and save UPA2 govt


What if Sonia is a scam that is a thousand times bigger than 2G?


Even if what you say is true, Sri Sudarshan ji would need to bring many like-minded people together before going public.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby arjunm » 14 Nov 2010 07:32

shiv wrote:
arjunm wrote:Rajiv married Antonia Maino alias Sonia in 1968. Sonia was planted by the secret group P2 of Italy, Archbishop Marcincus who was right hand man of Pope.Thus Sonia has contacts with Italian spy agencies. RAW was forced into accepting liaison with the Italian spy agencies by spymistress Sonia Gandhi


What is the proof that RAW was "forced" here? Maybe RAW is anti-national and can easily be convinced.

See the Christianists are clever. They colluded with the Muslims to create Pakistan. We know very well how the communists too are working against India. It is only Hindus who are stupid. What fascinates me is how the mere act of changing one's faith to one God (or no god, like commies) can give so much power and influence over the world. Truly we have been doing the wrong things in India for all these millennia.

BRF ahead of curve?

Shivji may be you are right, but I have also read in an article that Sonia Gandhi never trusted any India intelligence operatives and that is why when Rahul and Priyanka in their adulthood took an European tour, they were looked after by the European, mostly Italian and other intelligence organisation but not by the Indian agencies. This was probably during Rajiv Gandhi's premiership and, it was told, she was the Boss of the house.This was quite an embarrassment for the Indian intelligence. This issue was raised by thm in later period of time and really could not do nothing about it.


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