Indian Interests

[ShauryaT]

So, what explains Taiwan's economic integration with PRC - enduring enmity?

Taiwan is happy as long as China does not occupy it. There is no harm in trade as long as this core interest is taken care of.

Is this your answer "no harm in trade as long as you do not occupy me!". I think you missed the thrust of my question entirely. What underlies Taiwan's integration with PRC is their common social and people bonds. Political interests conflicting, notwithstanding.

Reality is a little more nuanced. Especially when readings are made through Chinese eyes and not western one's only.

Yes, reality is more nuanced. People who forget Taiwan-China crisis in 1996 should certainly remember that. They should explain why US sent its aircraft carriers to that region. I wonder why economic linkages were not sufficient to prevent that crisis. I also don't understand why Taiwan buys F-16s and why those sales cause takleef to China. Trade has already ensured that war is a "remote possibility". Why do Chinese react angrily when those sales are announced? Reality is certainly very nuanced.

Their trade and investments at that time was primarily through Hongkong and nowhere near as deep as it is today. They signed a trade agreement recently, largely beneficial to Taiwan. The 1996 showmanship aside today's PRC is out to woo the Taiwanese in spades. Does not mean all issues are resolved.

Anyways, this is about Indian interests, not pursuing Taiwan-PRC relations here. The example was made in context, will appreciate if the discussion of a limited objectives approach leading to security benefits can be kept intact.

I like how discussion becomes OT when holes are found in arguments

Does not add any value or has zero effect on me or my point. Nice try deviating from the topic. Please do not expect more response on PRC-Taiwan. The point again, if you missed it in your eagerness to show holes is avowed opponents can work without resolving all conflicts for mutual benefit.

[krisna]

^^^^

china-taiwan is between 2 systems of governance. During cold war, taiwan was not communist, uncle wanted to keep it that way and has continued it since then.
But the people ethnicity are same.

contrast this with Indo-pak relations. similar in many respects but there is great distance between the projections of the two peoples over years not helped the constant meddling by 3.5 friends.

china- taiwan can become one country with time, but Indo-pak to become one requires lots of effort in comparison.

[abhishek_sharma]

The point again, if you missed it in your eagerness to show holes is avowed opponents can work without resolving all conflicts for mutual benefit.

But there are two important features you have not pointed out:

1. They have not diluted their positions.
2. Pain has not been imposed on either party. For example, I don't think Chinese and Taiwanese are perpetrating bomb blasts in each others countries.

In your eagerness to push your agenda, you have missed these obvious dissimilarities with the "topic" we should discuss here.

[abhishek_sharma]

From the Urdu Press

New Egypt

Despite the support garnered by the new president of Egypt, Mohammad Mursi, there is, in Urdu broadsheets, a sense of apprehension at the present state of affairs in that country. Daawat, the biweekly run by Jamaat-e-Islami, an organisation sympathetic to the Muslim Brotherhood, in its July 4 issue writes: “The president took his oath before the highest court in the country, under the army’s supervision... the judiciary will also keep an eye on him. The judiciary has already reduced the power of the president... There is a danger of clashes at every step.”

Congress MP from Kishanganj, Maulana Asrarul Haq Qasmi, in his commentary in Rashtriya Sahara (July 3) writes about the challenges before the president: “The more the new president moves away from the West, the more people will support him.”.

The daily Sahafat on June 28 writes: “The change in Egypt cannot be compared to the revolution led by Imam Khomeini in Iran or the one led by Kemal Ataturk in Turkey. They were dissimilar, and the revolutions led by them were different too. But they had one thing in common: there was no one to challenge their leadership. Mursi is not that fortunate.”

Sarabjeet or Surjeet?

Rashtriya Sahara, in an editorial on June 30, writes: “Only Pakistan is responsible for the agony (of Sarabjeet’s family and of the Indian people), as it took many hours before a clarification was issued about the names of the two Indians in Pakistan prison... However, despite sorrow for Sarabjeet, one should be happy with the release of Surjeet after a prison term of 31 years.”

The multi-edition daily, Inquilab (now a part of the Jagran group) in its editorial on June 29 writes: “If the government of Pakistan has any respect for ethics and morality, it should tender an apology to the members of Sarabjeet’s family in particular and the people of this country in general... Besides an apology, Pakistan’s government should, as a correction of its ‘mistake’, release Sarabjeet.”

Akhilesh at 100

Taking a dim view of Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister Akhilesh Yadav’s government, the daily Siasat in its editorial on June 23 writes: “Two things about the first 100 days of Akhilesh Yadav’s rule are notable. First, the crime rate in the state has not shown a decrease and, in fact, it has increased somewhat. Second, minorities whose votes decisively brought him to power are not safe and are being targeted.”

The daily Aag, published from Lucknow has, however, said he should have more time before a definitive assessment can be made. “It should be recognised that Akhilesh is a young man who has become CM without any ministerial experience. He is making an effort to implement plans.”

Akhilesh’s controversial move to let MLAs buy a car for upto Rs 20 lakh using their local development fund (reversed the next day), seemed to have caused Urdu papers, nowadays generally well-disposed towards the SP, considerable embarrassment. Leading dailies have played down this decision. Rashtriya Sahara (July 4) and Inquilab reported it briefly on an inside page, while Hamara Samaj ignored it completely.

Hangman no more

According to a report in the weekly Jadeed Markaz (June 17-23), the veteran roving hangman Ahmadullah has decided to quit. Apart from a “careless” orthopaedist’s failure to properly treat his injured wrist, which made it difficult for him to do his job, his decision is motivated by his dislike of the work and the fact that a hangman is looked down on by society. Ahmadullah, “a devout Muslim”, says that the most memorable day of his working life was when he was asked to hang the killers of Indira Gandhi in Delhi’s Tihar jail.

Compiled by Seema Chishti

[abhishek_sharma]

Think Again: India's Rise: Is the world's largest democracy ready for prime time, or forever a B-list player on the global stage?

[ramana]

^^^^

china-taiwan is between 2 systems of governance. During cold war, taiwan was not communist, uncle wanted to keep it that way and has continued it since then.
But the people ethnicity are same.

contrast this with Indo-pak relations. similar in many respects but there is great distance between the projections of the two peoples over years not helped the constant meddling by 3.5 friends.

china- taiwan can become one country with time, but Indo-pak to become one requires lots of effort in comparison.

Not true anymore. The KMT folks came over after being driven out by Mao and took over the island of Formosa from the native people. Now the natives are back in majority and dont want to join PRC.
The KMT folks are now in a minority. I talked for long hours on this with some of the natives- Christian and Animists

[ShauryaT]

ST, I am not sure of this. Sanathan Dharma and Indic civilization spread and spiritual genius of India flourished without and despite political unity of India and core purpose of the state. My fear is if the Sanathan Dharma is identified with a state instead of the nation then it gets subsumed if the state goes.

Example Zorastarianism was the state religion of the pre Islamic Persians. It got wiped out with the fall of Cstephon.
Mithrasim was the state religion of Rome and fell with conversion of Constantine.

Sanathan Dharma lived and will live so long its not state sponsored.


Do I make myself clear or is it fuzzy?

I get your point clearly. But hear this view point out.

You will have to grant that political union in the modern nation-state sense of it, by itself is a fairly new and evolving concept in relation to the timelines of SD but understand the risks you present in a state dependent system. You will find that the spread of SD was always the largest, when there was a large and strong political setup in control. Examples are Ashoka, and Rajendra Chola.

Corelate the above point with the fact that Islam’s greatest spread was achieved only at the expense of defeating Rajputs and Kshatriya clans. You can trace this pattern across India and you shall find that wherever the Kshatriyas were able to withstand the Islamic onslaught, we survived in a better manner.

Coming to a place like Sindh, although political control was lost to muslims the Arabs did not rule long. Sindh was rules by local converts (Kshatriyas) and figured a way to live with the Hindus. It was not so much of the softness of the much touted pirs, but underlying the relative peace of Sindh was the fact that both muslims and hindus were indics governed by an indic ethos. The communities did fight often but with the sword arm lost, political power could never be regained. Yet, till about 1870, Sindh was Hindu majority. This is because a large part of vaishyas, shudras and other OBC along with some Brahmins (I am forced to use these categorizations, being a DIE onlee) did not convert. They had the least need to not being dependent on the state. My point is Hindu society survived for a long time even after state power was lost. This is because through out India the monarch, who was governed by a dharmic system was never had systems that kept total control of the population. The high level of delegation of authority to the regions, districts, villages, communities and to families ensured the “democratization” of polity though out our land mass. You will find the same model duplicated across the land mass.

SD aligned with a unitary state such as the one we have today is quite susceptible to the risk of collapse, the same way “secularism” is. However, what I am envisioning is some modern amalgamation of a federated model for Indian conditions. In this model, sovereignty is with the people and so are the values of SD. It is ground up, the way it was before. The reason for an invading force to fear the US or Switzerland or Israel or Afghanistan is not because of nukes, some of these have but the fact that defeating their armies is only the start of war. Each citizen would be armed and ready. The way India was before 1950. We need to create those conditions again, where every citizien has to choice to be armed – it is my measure of independence.

What I think is needed by SD is the “protection” not “sponsorship” of a state. This is crucial at two levels.

1. External: Too obvious a point for me to need to explain to you
2. Internal: At the end of the day, all the four purusharthas, so important to live a SD life needs an entire system of recognition, governance, promotions and protections in light of SD. It is the state, that is the ultimate protector of these values, just as a Hindu monarch was. Without these protections, systems, interpretations, judgments governed by SD – it primarily becomes a individual moksha marg path only and not a living system as it always was.

So, the state protects a full scope SD system, while it can but if the state is unable to, being a ground up system, all will still not be lost. Individual will continue as well as they can, as they did in the past.

Coming to today, I feel it is CRITICAL for SD to have state protections with a 1000 years of onslaught, rape and plunder of this land mass, physical and mental. The deracination levels are so high, that I really fear that we are losing this battle or have nearly lost it.

We need a preamble that the masses will identify with and give their lives for. In India only SD can do that.

[member_19648]

The islands are officially of 70 sq km area and can be used as strategic hubs, increasing India's reach and influence towards Africa, in which India has significant investments. Good time to lap the offer up perhaps, considering the outcome of the COCO islands, which is of great concern!

http://adeel-travel.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... lands.html

[member_19969]

Indian Non-Alignment in the 21st Century

[shyamd]

Not sure where to post:
Sirji, adequate isn’t good enough

New Delhi, July 1: In government report cards on babus, “adequate” will now mean “inadequate” and “satisfactory” signify “unsatisfactory”.

No, India’s government isn’t turning into a doublespeak-driven Orwellian Big Brother; nor is it taking lessons in obfuscation from Sir Humphrey Appleby of Yes Minister fame.

What it has done, for the first time, is to define “non-performance” on the part of senior bureaucrats, nudging states to prematurely retire those whose annual reports routinely judge their performance as “average”, “adequate” or “satisfactory”.

Ditto for those who receive “a lukewarm or equivocal certificate of integrity (which) would indicate there is some doubt in the mind of the reporting/reviewing authority about the integrity of the member”.

A letter sent on Thursday to all state and Union territory chief secretaries says such assessments in officials’ annual reports over a period of five to seven years, without mention of any notable achievement, suggest they have reached a “plateau” and become “mere passengers”.

“They become either stale or listless; they do not exhibit any creativity or innovativeness; and they do not achieve results,” the letter adds.

“To describe a member of an all-India service as average is not complimentary. While it may not be an adverse remark, it is nevertheless a reflection upon his work or conduct and should be taken to indicate output, which is ordinary and routine.”

The new rule has been recommended only for bureaucrats who have completed at least 15 years, making it plain that seniors are the targets.

The letter advises the states to always guard against the “Peter Principle”, which states: “In a hierarchy, every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence.”

The idea is that promotion policies tend, paradoxically, to take employees out of their areas of competence and place them in jobs they are unfit for, where they remain entrenched.

As long as an employee excels, he keeps getting promoted out of the work he excels in. When he reaches a level he is unsuited for, he shines no longer and receives no promotions — ensuring he stays at that job the longest.

Laurence J. Peter and Raymond Hull proposed the theory in their satirical 1969 book The Peter Principle, which also introduced the “salutary science of hierarchiology”.

Thursday’s letter was sent by the additional secretary in the department of personnel and training, S.K. Sarkar. It follows up on an amendment to the All India Service (Death-cum-Retirement Benefits) Rules, 1958, earlier this year.

The January 30 amendment specified that incompetent babus can be prematurely retired, in consultation with the states, anytime after they complete 15 years of service. It also introduced a performance review for all IAS, IPS and Indian Forest Service officers at the end of 15 and 25 years of service or after they have attained 50 years of age.

Under the old rules, the government could prematurely retire an official after 30 years of service, or anytime if convicted of corruption.

Sarkar has cited four Supreme Court rulings that support the principle of retiring non-performing officials prematurely. The objective is to embolden state administrations that shy away from acting against such bureaucrats for fear of long-drawn legal battles.

“(The) judicial pronouncements are clear... that premature retirement is not a punishment... (and) does not involve a stain or stigma and that (it) is in the public interest,” says the letter.

[AbhiJ]

Have you lived before? The concept of reincarnation that our souls may experience many lifetimes over centuries, maybe even thousands of years - has been present in virtually every culture since ancient times. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Aztecs all believed in the "transmigration of souls" from one body to another after death.

REINCARNATION, FACT OR FICTION?

Anything talking about Exclusively Recognized Indian Concepts like Reincarnation, Karma will always find India Omitted.

Civilizational Superpowers like Mestomos, Babalanios, Mummies will be shown to have the knowledge of them and will be shown as if it was made by their ancestors.

[abhishek_sharma]

From a book on Rahul Sankrityayan:

-- He believed that people should not speak too much Urdu because it contained too much Arabic/Persian.

-- He believed that Urdu should be written in Devanagari script.

-- He believed that Muslims in India, while fully following their religion, should be Indian in their outlook. In other words, they should not try to emulate Arabs.

--

He used to teach Panini and Meghdoot in Soviet Union.

--

When he was sick in Moscow, some of his Russian friends visited him in the hospital. He gave them a letter in Hindi (presumably for his family members). Since the letter was in a foreign language, his Russian friends got some takleef from KGB.

[Altair]

Have you lived before? The concept of reincarnation that our souls may experience many lifetimes over centuries, maybe even thousands of years - has been present in virtually every culture since ancient times. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Aztecs all believed in the "transmigration of souls" from one body to another after death.

REINCARNATION, FACT OR FICTION?

Anything talking about Exclusively Recognized Indian Concepts like Reincarnation, Karma will always find India Omitted.

Civilizational Superpowers like Mestomos, Babalanios, Mummies will be shown to have the knowledge of them and will be shown as if it was made by their ancestors.

According to Abrahmic religions those religions vanished because they were pagan. Hinduism exists and is practiced today by millions. It is a complete contradiction to their concept. They cannot explain it so they ignore it. Christianity fears Hinduism than anyone gives credit for. Vatican recognizes Hinduism as an evil pagan religion which must not exist and is a abomination to the One God! ROFL!

[AbhiJ]

According to Abrahmic religions those religions vanished because they were pagan. Hinduism exists and is practiced today by millions. It is a complete contradiction to their concept. They cannot explain it so they ignore it. Christianity fears Hinduism than anyone gives credit for. Vatican recognizes Hinduism as an evil pagan religion which must not exist and is a abomination to the One God! ROFL!

The only way Abrahamic Religions can be Eradicated is by Industrialization and Pseudo-Atheism. Then Pseudo-Atheism can be Absorbed as a Part of Hinduism. Hinduism can Vanquish and We have Santhana Dharma!

[devesh]

West Industrialized, but that didn't "eradicate" the proselytizing disease. Turkey industrialized, but that didn't end the other twin.

[AbhiJ]

West Industrialized, but that didn't "eradicate" the proselytizing disease. Turkey industrialized, but that didn't end the other twin.

The Political Thesis of the Abrahamics Survived. Their Grip on their Masses was Eradicated. Vatican can't declare a Jihad and expect all Christians would come on the streets like Muslims of Today. Only Phase 1 is Done. That Eliminates the threat perceived from Christian Masses and the only ones left are the Intelligentsia.

[brihaspati]

A very significant indicator:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... ens-rights

Mary Robinson, Elder and former president of Ireland, accused Rio+20 leaders of backsliding on earlier UN texts that protected women and girls. Photograph: Martin Argles for the Guardian

Women's rights are under the greatest attack for almost 20 years after a failure of world leaders to continue to support reproductive rights, according to Mary Robinson, the first female president of Ireland.

Her comments come amid fears that religious conservatives are eroding support for family planning around the world. Objections from the Vatican and other states removed specific support for reproductive rights, such as family planning, from an international agreement reached in Rio de Janeiro last month by the UN conference on sustainable development.

Robinson joined campaigners criticising the final agreement reached between 190 countries at the Rio+20 summit. The former president accused global leaders of "backsliding on fundamental texts" agreed at two summits subsequently lauded for protecting women and girls: Cairo in 1994 and Beijing in 1995.

Womens' rights and youth campaigners were shocked that a coalition of the Holy See, Russia, Syria, Egypt and several of the more conservative states in South America were able to jettison international agreements made in the 1990s by speaking against the inclusion of reproductive rights in the final agreement. Instead, the only mention of reproductive rights in the 80-page missive was as a "health issue".

Robinson said this "failure of leadership" could have a devastating effect on some of the world's poorest and most powerless women.

"When you don't carry that [forward], women worldwide hear a message that life is going to be more difficult," she said during a visit to London of the Elders, the group of former world leaders gathered together by Nelson Mandela.

While Robinson said she understood a compromise had to be reached by the United Nations, "they went for a lower common denominator to say the least".

The former UN high commissioner for human rights condemned the backtracking on agreements painstakingly hammered out in two important summits on family planning and women in the 1990s, when both her and Gro Harlem Brundtland, a fellow Elder, were heads of state.

The Rio+20 summit was attended by figures including Nick Clegg, the deputy prime minister, the environment secretary, Caroline Spelman, and the US secretary of state, Hillary Clinton.

Zohra Moosa, women's officer at Action Aid, welcomed Robinson's intervention, saying that the UN agreements reached in Cairo and Beijing had been used to defend women's rights, not to control the timing and number of children they have in parts of the world where human rights are not enshrined in law. "It is hideous," she said of the Rio agreement. "Instead of advancing womens' rights we seem to be rolling them back."

On many core issues - the more "conservative" Christian churches, and Islamics have been coming together. We should note that the church and Islamics had often collaborated against third "forces", as during the invasion of Roman Palestine by the Muslim Arab forces after defeat of Byzantium post the founder's death in the 600's. During those early times - this collaboration was against Jews or other "pagans".

[Prem]

Mangu taking cue from Gangu brings his Daangu
Walter Russell Mead's Blog
Is India Really On the Rise?

must read piece by the renowned Indian analyst Sumit Ganguly in Foreign Policy takes on, point by point, the conventional wisdom on India and subjects it to scrutiny. The article raises exactly the kinds of questions that Americans and Indians need to be thinking through, from whether India’s stellar growth is a fait accompli, to the chances that India will end up as America’s “most useful ally.” If India fails, Asia becomes a much more dangerous place, and the chances for destructive great power competition and even war in the region increase. As in many large democracies, including the US, policy discussion inside India is often very politically driven, inward-looking and short term focused. But a great power has to develop the capacity to integrate a global perspective into its internal debates.Ganguly also reminds readers that many senior Indians remain deeply skeptical about the continuity of American foreign policy, where every four years political change can send the ship of state off in an unpredictable direction:Indian policymakers fear that U.S. policy will change with every election. The United States may be pivoting to Asia now, but if it changes its mind in the future and tries to accommodate Beijing, it will leave India in the lurch, subject to Chinese intimidation. So, for now, India is hedging its bets.This is an important point and one not widely enough understood inside the US. Foreigners look at our record and at our capacity for quick 180 turns, and have a hard time figuring out when we mean what we say and when we are just playing games. From where I sit, and I do my best to talk to people in both parties about these things, America is serious about India. Via Meadia has underlined the bipartisan support in the U.S. for a tight relationship with India, not least because the nation will be key player in a more active policy in Asia. Serious efforts to develop ties with India began with the Bush administration, and in 2008 a Democratic Congress passed the Indo-American nuclear cooperation agreement. The Obama administration has stuck with the program, and there is little doubt that a Romney administration would inherit this policy toward India as well. But Indians can’t simply rely on the assurances of American politicians and analysts to make up their minds on a point of this importance; both sides are going to have to develop better communications skills and listening abilities as the rise of Asia brings us into closer contact.


At least as we see it here at VM, and we think we grasp Foggy Bottom’s — to use the old nickname for the State Department — approach to this as well, the U.S. is not trying to get India into some kind of grand anti-China alliance. The U.S. goal in Asia isn’t so much to contain China, but to avoid a need for containment altogether. Instead what we want is a peaceful and secure Asian system in which the interests, rights, security and prosperity of every state are safeguarded. We’d achieve this with the help of many, not just one, Asian countries—including, we very much hope, China. Rather than trying to drag India into a permanent alignment with the US, the goal is to promote an Asia in which nobody has to align, and the question of alignment and alliance would only really come up if this policy fails.

[ramana]

^^^^

... From where I sit, and I do my best to talk to people in both parties about these things, America is serious about India. Via Meadia has underlined the bipartisan support in the U.S. for a tight relationship with India, not least because the nation will be key player in a more active policy in Asia. Serious efforts to develop ties with India began with the Bush administration, and in 2008 a Democratic Congress passed the Indo-American nuclear cooperation agreement. The Obama administration has stuck with the program, and there is little doubt that a Romney administration would inherit this policy toward India as well. But Indians can’t simply rely on the assurances of American politicians and analysts to make up their minds on a point of this importance; both sides are going to have to develop better communications skills and listening abilities as the rise of Asia brings us into closer contact.

At least as we see it here at VM, and we think we grasp Foggy Bottom’s — to use the old nickname for the State Department — approach to this as well, the U.S. is not trying to get India into some kind of grand anti-China alliance. The U.S. goal in Asia isn’t so much to contain China, but to avoid a need for containment altogether. Instead what we want is a peaceful and secure Asian system in which the interests, rights, security and prosperity of every state are safeguarded. We’d achieve this with the help of many, not just one, Asian countries—including, we very much hope, China. Rather than trying to drag India into a permanent alignment with the US, the goal is to promote an Asia in which nobody has to align, and the question of alignment and alliance would only really come up if this policy fails.

Exactly what the Indians think the US is planning to do.

[ramana]

Jhujar, If one looks through the prism of 'vectors of change' terminology, state debt is an emerging vector of change in this early century. The current level of debt is unsustainable without drastic re-baselining.

A superpower has been reduced to balance of power player in Asia even without a shot being fired.

[Prem]

Jhujar, If one looks through the prism of 'vectors of change' terminology, state debt is an emerging vector of change in this early century. The current level of debt is unsustainable without drastic re-baselining. A superpower has been reduced to balance of power player in Asia even without a shot being fired.

Clinton Madam gave the similar speech about 3 years ago, We discussed it here ago. AFAIK, Russian foreign minister was visiting US that time. Not only the USA but Russian desires same becuase of their economic interests. Asia has the capacity to bail out and sustain both "soup-erpowers" yet Asians are not fully aware of their strength. Chinese overlordship is not acceptable to any country sans NOKO And our neighbor POKO. India is not ready and Japanese dont have the will. IMHO, they will all strike the balance in a decade or so and it wil be good for all. In the meantime , grab as much of African resources needed for economic growth. There wont be any major war in Asian theatre in forseeable future. Western monetray turmoil have just hasten the process of Asian pre-eminence . Indi-Chini coperation can/ should save Energy rich ME from destruction. This is the only known major vulnerability of Asia. Idiotic Iranian polcies making mess .

[V_Raman]

in that case, every attempt will be made by the west to plunge ME into chaos -- as we are seeing already. Assad is the last line of defence. Why is Russia the outlier? Are waiting for a compact with Germany before letting go?

Actually, it is India/China who are idiotic. All this moves by USA to paint India/China as enemies makes sense now. It is to keep our eye fixed somewhere else while they plot for destabilizing ME. India/China better realize the situation and arrive at an understanding soon before Assad really falls and cuts off the shia corridor from Iran to Israel.

[brihaspati]

Why should we cooperate with anyone to save "energy rich ME" from destruction? Destruction of regimes and states does not automatically destroy their energy sources underground.

I know all the yadda yadda cliches about why we should - like billions of Indian expats in ME, India's "energy needs", and gazillions of investments in our infrastructure, financial flows - all of which is raising billions of Indians out of poverty every second since kingdom come, as well as fuelling the much needed madrassah industry and Saudi theologian promotion tours.

Any other reason why we should cooperate? [Dont' say pressurizing Pakis : Saudi leaders and inside-sources admit the limits - they are dependent on Pakis too, for nukes, for nuisance value, for regional detente, for supplying mards for the safety and preservation of royal gluteals.]

[V_Raman]

I agree that we should not if we are prepared to take on hardship and willing to go to war. I dont think we are reached an economic level where we can take this on. But the situation might force our hand. We will know for sure in GoI deploys forces in AFG.

[brihaspati]

No chance of IA deployed on combat readiness in AFG. It will be wrapped as training missions, and never critical enough to tilt balance of power. Moreover, Delhi is always in a dilemma - "does she love me, loves me not" with the theology. You never know if you might lose elections because you did something seen as detrimental to ummah interests, even if it is in Antarctica.

[V_Raman]

If we are not ready to take risks, we are destined to whereever fate takes us. i saw an NDTV session on evolution/god theology etc. where juggi was participating with a "hindu" scientist, a church-father, and some vivekananda guy. The communication from the church-father was very clear of purpose of life, resonsibility towards community etc. Indics were non-sensical give the audience, seems to have lost their sense of community/country and what it takes to lead a culture forward :-( very disappointed with our intellectuals. we are drowned in our elitism im afraid.

[RamaY]

Why should we cooperate with anyone to save "energy rich ME" from destruction? Destruction of regimes and states does not automatically destroy their energy sources underground.

I know all the yadda yadda cliches about why we should - like billions of Indian expats in ME, India's "energy needs", and gazillions of investments in our infrastructure, financial flows - all of which is raising billions of Indians out of poverty every second since kingdom come, as well as fuelling the much needed madrassah industry and Saudi theologian promotion tours.

Any other reason why we should cooperate? [Dont' say pressurizing Pakis : Saudi leaders and inside-sources admit the limits - they are dependent on Pakis too, for nukes, for nuisance value, for regional detente, for supplying mards for the safety and preservation of royal gluteals.]

Bji, along with Pakis and GCC, the livelihood of WKKs will also get destroyed. That is the main concern.

[Prem]

Right Now 46 % supply of oil is dependent on OPEC.Its being decreased by 1 percent a year and accelrating . Once Shale / Canadian oil sand and other resources come on line with full stream, its gonna be downhill for ME from that point onward. The geopolitical importance of ME because of energy will be reduced to half in next 15 years or so. Only then the current upheaval can be notched up to destruction level.CAR and Russian resources flowing to Indian ocean can accelrate the time line. No one can save ME from destruction. Its a question of booty ,distribution of spoils among the players.IndoAsians need those spoils more than WEST or Russia but Indo Asians cant seems to sit togther and chalk out the common strategy for welcoming the Dwapar era. Once China realize its limitations, Peking wil come around see the light. This is why US, JAPAN, India , SOKO , Russia and others must cooperate to nudge PRC in certain direction.

[Prem]

[Any other reason why we should cooperate? [Dont' say pressurizing Pakis : Saudi leaders and inside-sources admit the limits - they are dependent on Pakis too, for nukes, for nuisance value, for regional detente, for supplying mards for the safety and preservation of royal gluteals.]
Bji, along with Pakis and GCC, the livelihood of WKKs will also get destroyed. That is the main concern.

They dont need small Flys like WKKs any more. They are already inside the main political power circles and pulling the strings.

[RamaY]

Right Now 46 % supply of oil is dependent on OPEC.Its being decreased by 1 percent a year and accelrating . Once Shale / Canadian oil sand and other resources come on line with full stream, its gonna be downhill for ME from that point onward. The geopolitical importance of ME because of energy will be reduced to half in next 15 years or so. Only then the current upheaval can be notched up to destruction level.CAR and Russian resources flowing to Indian ocean can accelrate the time line. No one can save ME from destruction. Its a question of booty ,distribution of spoils among the players.IndoAsians need those spoils more than WEST or Russia but Indo Asians cant seems to sit togther and chalk out the common strategy for welcoming the Dwapar era. Once China realize its limitations, Peking wil come around see the light. This is why US, JAPAN, India , SOKO , Russia and others must cooperate to nudge PRC in certain direction.

Jhujar ji

ME will important to Bharat and China due to its proximity and relatively quality crude.

The issue is with people elevating a simple buyer-seller relationship into a friendship, family and spiritual dependence (that too one-way). That is an indication of deep rooted prejudices.

My goal is not to discuss the friendly, family and spiritual contributions of some desert thugs or to humiliate the inherent dhimminess of intellect amdist ourselves. My objective is to make people see a transaction for what it is.

zimble onlee...

[D Roy]

Friendship with America has been predicated on the following:

1. India's early entry into the NSG.

2. UN reforms.

3. Transfer of industrial tech from both Amrika and Nippon.

Point no. 3 is what is most crucial and the real bellwether of this relationship.

This has been conveyed. If (3) starts happening on a major major scale India will join. Otherwise its the usual "strategic partnership" bullshit.

[Prem]

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/07/ ... latestnews
Enough about Higgs, let's discuss the boson, Indians say
July 10, 2012: A portrait of Indian scientist Satyendranath Bose, is displayed at the Bangiya Vigyan Parishad or the Bengal Science Society founded by Bose in Kolkata, India. (AP Photo/Bikas Das)

Despite the fact that Bose had little direct involvement in theorizing the Higgs boson itself, in India the lack of attention given to one of their own was seen as an insult too big to ignore."He is a forgotten hero," the government lamented in a lengthy statement, noting that Bose was never awarded a Nobel Prize though "at least 10 scientists have been awarded the Nobel" in the same field.The annoyance marks yet another case in the ever-growing list of perceived global snubs Indians feel they suffer, from the U.S. airport searches of Bollywood star Shah Rukh Khan to the naming of a superbug after New Delhi, where it was found.
Indians are touchy about this. All post-colonial societies are touchy about this," said political psychologist Ashis Nandy of the Delhi-based think tank Center for the Study of Developing Societies. "The sooner we get out of that, the better."Nandy, who interviewed Bose before his death in 1974, said the scientist himself was "least concerned about rankings and prizes."
The boson is named in honor of the Kolkata-born scientist's work in the 1920s with Albert Einstein in defining one of two basic classes of subatomic particles. The work describes how photons can be considered particles as well as waves -- such as in a laser beam. All particles that follow such behavior, including the Higgs boson, are called bosons.
The Sunday Times of India noted other eminent Indian scientists who "never got their due," including physicist G.N. Ramachandran who died in 2001 after making biological discoveries like collagen's triple-helix structure and 3-D imaging used in studying the human body.It also said living Indian scientists, Varanasi-based molecular biologist Lalji Singh and New York-based E. Premkumar Reddy, should be candidates for awards. Both men reportedly said they were not interested in lobbying for prizes."Many people in this country have been perplexed, and even annoyed, that the Indian half of the now-acknowledged `God particle' is being carried in lower case," The Economic Times wrote in an editorial Monday. What most don't realize is that the naming of all bosons after Bose "actually denotes greater importance."

[devesh]

see how the foot-soldier Ashis Nandy does the work of the goras for them. march on, faithful slaves of the WU, march on, towards ever greater pride in putting down your own culture and countrymen...

[Prem]

Aye mere watan ke logo
http://www.metafilter.com/117683/Aye-mere-watan-ke-logo

Given how little thought India’s contribution to the World Wars gets in our collective historical memory, it is almost strange to think that in the First World War India made the largest contribution to the war effort out of all of Britain’s colonies and dominions. Close to 1,700,000 Indians – combatants and non-combatants – participated in WWI. My own area of interest is India’s role in the Mesopotamian theatre.Bonus: While Amitav Ghosh's entire blog is a wonderful read, here is a four part series extracted from the memoirs of an Indian POW in Italy, to stay within the theme of this post. Part ONE, TWO, THREE and FOUR

"Indian" soldiers fought in many of the colonial wars also. For example the Taipei Rebellion in China. They helped to sack Beijing and burn the Summer Palace to the ground. Their participation in WWI wasn't a novelty, but an extension of the colonial wars of the 19th century, WWI & WWII were basically the climatic end of imperialism come home to roost

[sanjaykumar]

Snort, they were the final interdenominational Christian blood fests.

The big bomb made such ahem ecumenical discourse much too dangerous even by
Euro standards.

The half savages in iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Korea, Vietnam, Namibia need to understand why they of all have been punched around. Poor saps have no idea.

[ramana]

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/07/ ... latestnews
Enough about Higgs, let's discuss the boson, Indians say
July 10, 2012: A portrait of Indian scientist Satyendranath Bose, is displayed at the Bangiya Vigyan Parishad or the Bengal Science Society founded by Bose in Kolkata, India. (AP Photo/Bikas Das)

Despite the fact that Bose had little direct involvement in theorizing the Higgs boson itself, in India the lack of attention given to one of their own was seen as an insult too big to ignore."He is a forgotten hero," the government lamented in a lengthy statement, noting that Bose was never awarded a Nobel Prize though "at least 10 scientists have been awarded the Nobel" in the same field.The annoyance marks yet another case in the ever-growing list of perceived global snubs Indians feel they suffer, from the U.S. airport searches of Bollywood star Shah Rukh Khan to the naming of a superbug after New Delhi, where it was found.
Indians are touchy about this. All post-colonial societies are touchy about this," said political psychologist Ashis Nandy of the Delhi-based think tank Center for the Study of Developing Societies. "The sooner we get out of that, the better."Nandy, who interviewed Bose before his death in 1974, said the scientist himself was "least concerned about rankings and prizes."
The boson is named in honor of the Kolkata-born scientist's work in the 1920s with Albert Einstein in defining one of two basic classes of subatomic particles. The work describes how photons can be considered particles as well as waves -- such as in a laser beam. All particles that follow such behavior, including the Higgs boson, are called bosons.
The Sunday Times of India noted other eminent Indian scientists who "never got their due," including physicist G.N. Ramachandran who died in 2001 after making biological discoveries like collagen's triple-helix structure and 3-D imaging used in studying the human body.It also said living Indian scientists, Varanasi-based molecular biologist Lalji Singh and New York-based E. Premkumar Reddy, should be candidates for awards. Both men reportedly said they were not interested in lobbying for prizes."Many people in this country have been perplexed, and even annoyed, that the Indian half of the now-acknowledged `God particle' is being carried in lower case," The Economic Times wrote in an editorial Monday. What most don't realize is that the naming of all bosons after Bose "actually denotes greater importance."

Nobel prize is European way to reward themselves. The few non-Europeans are included for tokenism or social engineering to crate new rallying points. Rabindra Tagore was the only exception.

[lakshmikanth]

Nobel prize is European way to reward themselves. The few non-Europeans are included for tokenism or social engineering to crate new rallying points. Rabindra Tagore was the only exception.

Ramana sir,

There is one well known issue with the Nobel prize. I add to that a conjecture of mine (which is derived from my own transition from a full blooded son of Macaulay to a curious and confused Indic)

1) There is no "equal" of Nobel prize in India (or for that matter in the non-Oiropean world), in terms of the power it can present to you in forming opinions in the field that you are involved in. This is something that the non-western world should aim to break in the next 20 - 30 years.
2) [Conjecture] Our older generation scientists and individuals who are educated in western symbols and western ideals and who began life as sons of Macaulay look towards Western validation in any form as far superior than validation from India. Nobel price is the epitome of that validation, the Gungadeen can almost hear the internalized white man telling him/her: "You are now a honorary Gora, welcome to our Elite club", which gives them wet dreams. This kind of self-denigrating self-racism causes the Nobel to be more valued than it should be.

This repeats in every field I can imagine so its not unique to Nobel, however Nobel is where the contrast is extremely sharp.

Point 1 above cuts of the supply and point 2 increases the demand n-fold. Given this, the bania economist in my brain tells me that this is why we have willing Gungadeens in every field who will sell their own mothers and sisters to any whorehouse to get their supply of intellectual crack (aka Western Validation).

You dont have to look too far, just imagine the joy in many Indians when AR Rahman won his 2 Oscars. Some were saying "finally" he got his recognition, without even realizing that they were discrediting their own countrymen who made AR Rahman extremely famous and wealthy in our own backyard. The fact that I had to hear such disgusting stuff from my own blinded brothers made me nauseate more than the realizations that Oscars were nothing more than a fraud.

[Yayavar]

valid points - but one comment- older generation : Raman, JC Bose, Saha, etc. do not appear Macaulized at all. They had a lot of pride in Indic-ness. The macaulization that you are referring to seems to be more in later years.

[abhishek_sharma]

Nobel prize is European way to reward themselves. The few non-Europeans are included for tokenism or social engineering to crate new rallying points. Rabindra Tagore was the only exception.

I think there should be a distinction between the peace prize and other science-based Nobels. It is fairly clear that the peace prize is given for political reasons.

Science/Economics nobels have more credibility. However, one mistake people make is that they assume that the Nobel winner knows about everything . For example, why should we care about what Amartya Sen thinks about nuclear weapons (or even history)? He is an economist. We should listen if he makes an e-con related point. Otherwise we should ignore him.

[Aditya_V]

Or that Amartya Sen is somehow qualified to run Nalanda University Project?