Indian Interests

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 Jan 2013 03:29

harbans ji,

which values would the Indians and Pakistanis agree on are different between them?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 Jan 2013 03:31

harbans wrote:
The Core imperative is to bind Indians and India to protection of the Indian Civilization,
The entire Indian civilization in USELESS and WILL loose if it cannot identify value systems it must stand up for.

Which values do you think people identifying with the Indian Civilization are debating upon for which they should stand up?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 25 Jan 2013 03:40

Rajesh Ji may i ask you why India and Pakistan fight if both parties really believe in the same value systems? If Islam say believed in Truth, Compassion, non violence to all living beings more than the Dharmic does, i would be a Muslim. But truthfully tell me does Islam believe in those simple memes? Do the Paki's that represent Islam believe so? Or do they want ritualistic Islamic dominance to prevail, values be damned to hell and impaled. What do you think. Should our counter be 'Hey Paki, our ritual is better' or should our counter be ' Our value systems are better'? Dig inside you and answer me truthfully..

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 Jan 2013 03:49

harbans wrote:Rajesh Ji may i ask you why India and Pakistan fight if both parties really believe in the same value systems? If Islam say believed in Truth, Compassion, non violence to all living beings more than the Dharmic does, i would be a Muslim. But truthfully tell me does Islam believe in those simple memes? Do the Paki's that represent Islam believe so? Or do they want ritualistic Islamic dominance to prevail, values be damned to hell and impaled. What do you think. Should our counter be 'Hey Paki, our ritual is better' or should our counter be ' Our value systems are better'? Dig inside you and answer me truthfully..

harbans ji,

I am a meat eater. I am not a vegetarian. In India too there is a lot of consumption of meat, and it is not just by non-Hindus. All Hindus are not vegetarian. So what do you mean by "non violence to all living beings"? So in order not to differentiate on this basis let's keep that aside.

As for Truth and Compassion, both Dharmics and Muslims would say they believe in it, but the other does not.

So if you put that in the Constitution, both Dharmics and Muslims would be abiding by that Constitutional "provision" in their mind, and yet be doing fully contrary things and fighting each other.

So do you think that if Dharmics and Muslims agree on Truth and Compassion, that the conflict would die down?

So you can say to the Paki, "hey our value system is better"! He will say the same thing! So what would we have changed?

Perhaps you are not suggesting so, but the issue can hardly be one of Indians needing to brag in front of Pakis that we have a better Constitution! That we can do even today if we want to. Doesn't mean they would agree in any case. Indian Constitution is for the welfare and progress of India and Indians. What the Pakis think about it, should interest us the least.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 25 Jan 2013 04:33

As for Truth and Compassion, both Dharmics and Muslims would say they believe in it, but the other does not.

Rajesh ji, we all know Vedanta and the most important document for many Hindu's the BG, Krishna clearly states non violence to all living beings is an admired value. It is not for no reason that the worlds majority vegetarians exist in India. The modern day Hindu in contact with external influences has changed diet is another matter, yet the basic concept of Ahimsa extends to all living beings. It is deep rooted even today when we see Vegetarian only restaurants all over cities and towns in India.

Compassion: Even in the battle of Panipat we had Sikhs giving water to the fallen enemy, throughout history the Dharmic warrior gave succor to the fallen and wounded enemy. Even in the Mahabharata, in the Ramayana. Every instance of Dharmic mythology showed compassion to the fallen. It continues till this day with the Dharmic warrior. That does not apply to Islamic armies, who by their documents of war are taught to mutilate, behead, torture and worse.

Truth: You are too familiar about Taqiya. Truth is not core to Islam. Truth is core to Dharma. Truth is God. God is the absolute Truth. So if one keeps to the relative truth, ultimately he or she will evolve to the absolute Truth that is the same as God. That concept is ingrained in Indian psyche so much that we survive as a nation. We falter because we don't give it primacy.

We fail to understand why we survive the onslaught. We may not be perfect, yet by underlining our belief in that core we stress our readiness, despite our failings, to evolve to the perfectness of those values. When other cultures come into conflict we revolt or are outraged. Our outrage is always a result of some inner core value systems being hurt.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 25 Jan 2013 04:36

So do you think that if Dharmics and Muslims agree on Truth and Compassion, that the conflict would die down?

Rajesh Ji..a resounding 100% YES!. If both nations put Truth and Compassion as a FIRST in their preamble and have the ability to stand up for it. There would be Zero conflict.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 25 Jan 2013 04:39

How to define the "Truth" and "Compassion"; How is absoluteness truth and slitting the throats reciting "merciful" fliss?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 25 Jan 2013 04:50

It is not, that is what i am telling Rajesh ji is the root of the conflict. Slitting throats reciting a Gods name is not compatible with our value systems. Most of us truthfully find that appalling.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Jan 2013 04:51

harbans ji,
the value system debate is something I was keen on a couple of years ago. I had suggested that we need to filter out the value-system based on which we should define our society. But every thread of analysis I have pursued, has landed me up with the inevitable problem of contextual modification and contextual selective application of "values".

Is it possible to think of a core set of principles - to derive actions in any given situation - rather than a hard core system of listed values?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Jan 2013 04:53

Better to think of hierarchy or preference ordering of choices. A process explored in Betaal-Panchavingshati. Even that is not entirely free of underlying "value" assumptions, but still perhaps a way forward?

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 25 Jan 2013 05:08

Harbans ji,
It's no go from the word go to bring two different people, one history-centric another dharmic to define truth and accomodate each other. Forget dharmics and Muslims, Muslims and Christians cannot agree on truth because of the very nature of how each is told what truth is. For Muslims, Jesus can't be son of God, if they take that to be true, then Mohammad's teaching will be invalidated as nothibg can be better than what God's own son had said about truth. And Christian can't accept Muslim truth because if he does then that means Jesus is not the son of God. Now for a dharmic, God can reside in anything and erythig so he won't accept a Muslim's truth that God can't be known by man and that he resides somewhere beyond universe. I don't understand how they can accept each others truth. Not going to happen.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 Jan 2013 05:17

harbans wrote:
As for Truth and Compassion, both Dharmics and Muslims would say they believe in it, but the other does not.
Rajesh ji, we all know Vedanta and the most important document for many Hindu's the BG, Krishna clearly states non violence to all living beings is an admired value. It is not for no reason that the worlds majority vegetarians exist in India. The modern day Hindu in contact with external influences has changed diet is another matter, yet the basic concept of Ahimsa extends to all living beings. It is deep rooted even today when we see Vegetarian only restaurants all over cities and towns in India.

harbans ji,

there is no homogeneity on this. There are a lots of people, tribes, groups which made up and make up India. Even without the influence of any Abrahamics in India, there were meat eaters in India. You may think, I eat meat under the influence of others. But I eat meat because I like eating meat.

Does it mean I favor violence on living beings. No not at all. There are many spiders in my flat and they all have certificates that they live under my benign protection. I eat meat because I think not eating meat separates us from the animals. It introduces arrogance of being something better. I want to be one with nature. Nature is about eating and being eaten. There is no evil in it. There is no evil in the Lion when he makes a killing. If I wish to be part of nature, I should not deny my natural instincts and not eat meat. Human being is omnivorous, which means he can eat meat.

This is a very different reasoning from what the Abrahamics give! They say they eat meat because God gave to man the Kingdom of Earth to rule over everything else!

Does eating meat make me Adharmic? For some surely. But for me, I am not! I have good reasons to give myself why I am not Adharmic, but lets leave it at that.

However when it comes to killing of cows in India, I am against it. Why? Because that is my civilization heritage. Not to kill cows.

Does that mean I don't eat beef? No! I do eat beef! How do I reconcile the two? Well the cows not deemed for slaughter in my civilization was Bos Indicus. I eat only Bos Taurus. Something totally different.

Why I bring all this up? Just to say that one cannot go about putting absolute values down like that in the Constitution, because people interpret many things differently.

However Indian Civilization is Indian Civilization and that Civilization is the anchor that gives us our identity and sense of values.

harbans wrote:Compassion: Even in the battle of Panipat we had Sikhs giving water to the fallen enemy, throughout history the Dharmic warrior gave succor to the fallen and wounded enemy. Even in the Mahabharata, in the Ramayana. Every instance of Dharmic mythology showed compassion to the fallen. It continues till this day with the Dharmic warrior. That does not apply to Islamic armies, who by their documents of war are taught to mutilate, behead, torture and worse.

Good that they showed compassion. But when it comes to Pakis, I like the Kali Mata method and beheading is okay. Does that make me Adharmic? For some surely.

But that too is my Indian Civilization, and I do not shirk from it.

harbans wrote:Truth: You are too familiar about Taqiya. Truth is not core to Islam. Truth is core to Dharma. Truth is God. God is the absolute Truth. So if one keeps to the relative truth, ultimately he or she will evolve to the absolute Truth that is the same as God. That concept is ingrained in Indian psyche so much that we survive as a nation. We falter because we don't give it primacy.

If the concept is so ingrained in the Indian psyche, what is the need of putting it in the Constitution itself? BTW it is already on our Emblem.

Truth may not be the core of Islam. The core of Islam is Peace. So perhaps we could agree with the Muslims to put PEACE as a common value in the Constitution! Would that bring PEACE between us? I would remain a skeptic.

But even as far as Truth is concerned, you'd be surprised to hear how many Muslims contend that they are great believers in Truth. This they would claim regardless of how you look upon them. They will just say, it is your Islamophobia that you think they are not truthful.

harbans wrote:We fail to understand why we survive the onslaught. We may not be perfect, yet by underlining our belief in that core we stress our readiness, despite our failings, to evolve to the perfectness of those values. When other cultures come into conflict we revolt or are outraged. Our outrage is always a result of some inner core value systems being hurt.

You say all this yet you do not acknowledge that it is our culture and civilization that has conditioned us as such.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 25 Jan 2013 05:18

We do have simple way to identify or discern. Call the "Others" Adharmic, ABhartiya , Non Indic or Videshi Putras.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 25 Jan 2013 05:39

Is it possible to think of a core set of principles - to derive actions in any given situation - rather than a hard core system of listed values?

B Ji, i think it is possible. But the first task is convincing people that they come in conflict not because of ritual difference, but difference in some core value principle. If we don't stand for something, we will fall for anything. And many a Hindu have fallen.

Venu Ji, i answered a hypothetical query posed by Rajesh Ji. IF and a very Big IF, Paki's and Indians agree to just 2 preambles that of Truth and Compassion, and the might of the state forces institutions to comply with the preambles, yes we will start resembling each other. Americans and Indians have according to some started to find a lot of commonality not because Indians have become Americans, but because Americans have become more 'Hindui'ized'. Google Lisa Miller-Hindu of newsweek. I know on the other hand why Pakis and Indians conflict. The HK does not give any stress to truth or compassion towards the 'unbeliever'.

Rajesh Ji, irrespective of the fact you like meat. Many travelers recorded the fact that Indians were largely vegetarian. We know from them that Chandala's who ate meat were shunned in society. Right or wrong is another matter. But largely the society did abhor violence to animals. But lets leave that aside. Even Kali is not not worshiped in large parts of India.

The core of Islam is Peace. So perhaps we could agree with the Muslims to put PEACE as a common value in the Constitution! Would that bring PEACE between us? I would remain a skeptic.

Where did you get the notion that the core of Islam is Peace? Peace is not a value. It is a state. Truthfulness is a value. Pacifity in the face of outrageous behavior is mentioned by Krishna as cowardice. Not a value system to be cherished.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 25 Jan 2013 08:15

HINDU TERRORISM, HOW TO PREVENT IT
Koenraad Elst

So, what to do? If Hindu terrorism doesn’t exist or is still marginal, it may become an acute problem. The reason is that Hindus are desperate, the number and aggressiveness of enemies is increasing, the callousness of the government is impressive, the ineffectiveness of the supposed pro-Hindu organizations has left them disappointed. So, by addressing these root causes of Hindu unrest, the threat of Hindu terrorism can be taken away.

Secularists could abandon their buffoonery and suddenly become even-handed. They could work with the Hindu nationalists for the eminently secular Common Civil Code, they could abolish the legal privileges of non-Hindu-majority states, they could apply Karl Marx’s dictum that “all criticism starts with criticism of religion” to Islam or Christianity for once. The Hindu organizations, while not committing Hindu terrorism themselves, are co-guilty of it by failing to provide the Hindu population with successes and hope for the future. They could defuse the threat of Hindu violence by suddenly turning effective and really pro-Hindu.

http://centreright.in/2013/01/hindu-ter ... QH1WR0Tg44

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Jan 2013 08:21

It is interesting how we want to find the LCD of all civilizations in the hope that we can bring together the humans, but somehow this group of humans will be upset with the word "Hindu".

I am sure Muslim Sufis and Christian saints are telling exactly the same to Hindus. Live exactly the way you do, but don't call yourself Hindu and not to pray your gods.

The mythical Dharmic code is exactly that.

Why don't the thought leaders first define the DCC and just focus on Non-Hindus who are so dharmic. Let Hindus be Hindus for some time. We just got some awareness and prosperity after hundreds of years. We will join the dharmic club once everyone else is convinced and leave their faiths to become dharmic. You can blame us, Hindus, if you think you can that will attract those dharmic abrahamics in to the DCC group leaving their faiths.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 25 Jan 2013 09:17

harbans wrote:But the first task is convincing people that they come in conflict not because of ritual difference, but difference in some core value principle. If we don't stand for something, we will fall for anything.

I agree on the stress on values, Harbans ji. But which are the specific values you have in mind ?

I would suggest the following as core principles for the state to promote-

1. Continuous striving for the 'Truth'
2. Respect for Regional Cultural heritage and Traditions
3. Mindset of continual self-improvement
& 4. Sapeksha Dharma (Mutual respect between faiths)

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 Jan 2013 11:25

harbans wrote:Venu Ji, i answered a hypothetical query posed by Rajesh Ji. IF and a very Big IF, Paki's and Indians agree to just 2 preambles that of Truth and Compassion, and the might of the state forces institutions to comply with the preambles, yes we will start resembling each other. Americans and Indians have according to some started to find a lot of commonality not because Indians have become Americans, but because Americans have become more 'Hindui'ized'. Google Lisa Miller-Hindu of newsweek. I know on the other hand why Pakis and Indians conflict. The HK does not give any stress to truth or compassion towards the 'unbeliever'.

harbans ji,

that what you answered was not with logic but with a fond hope. What I am trying to tell you is that the semantics of values are interpreted very differently by different people. That is why in law or in contracts, you find huge tomes of law books and lots of text, which are there to zero-in on the semantic that is intended by the state or by the two agreeing parties. Even then there are people who exploit the loop holes in law and contracts due to vagueness. And then there are even those who break the law and violate contracts.

So when it comes to values, you will need to give a lot of background on the value's exact semantics. When you do that, what you are doing is writing philosophy, mythology, culture, history including geographical and genetic sources. What you are doing is explaining the background on how to interpret values. What you are doing is pointing out the Civilization which explains the semantics of the values.

That is important because any given situation has multiple interpretations and offers applicability of a multitude of values with varied emphasis.

You just have the fond hope that you can express semantics of values through a few labels - e.g. Truth and Compassion. Your fond hope is that you can project your subjectivity into a global understanding.

For lack of a better word, I would call it a nice but naive way of looking at it.

harbans wrote:Rajesh Ji, irrespective of the fact you like meat. Many travelers recorded the fact that Indians were largely vegetarian. We know from them that Chandala's who ate meat were shunned in society. Right or wrong is another matter. But largely the society did abhor violence to animals. But lets leave that aside. Even Kali is not not worshiped in large parts of India.

As you see, you were forced to give background on those "values". You were forced to make inferences to the Civilizational background in which one is supposed to understand the semantics of values.

Secondly you were forced to admit, that there were exceptions to a majority convention. Shouldn't Chandalas and Kali-worshipers have a place in the New Order?

harbans wrote:
RajeshA wrote:The core of Islam is Peace. So perhaps we could agree with the Muslims to put PEACE as a common value in the Constitution! Would that bring PEACE between us? I would remain a skeptic.
Where did you get the notion that the core of Islam is Peace? Peace is not a value. It is a state. Truthfulness is a value. Pacifity in the face of outrageous behavior is mentioned by Krishna as cowardice. Not a value system to be cherished.

For the sake of argument, peaceful living is a value.

Again you bring in Krishna! Was Krishna some Roman Caesar? No! He is a primary icon of the Indian Civilization, to put it mildly.

What you are doing again and again is that you are setting up "values" vs. "rituals"! That is a non-fight!

What I am trying to tell you is that contextless values are just junk which are adorned subjectively by each individual as and how it pleases him. You need a reference to a civilization to give these "context-less values" a certain semantic. And when you make that reference, what you are doing is is you're speaking of identity!

So the argument is over "context-free values" vs. "civilizational identity" as the primary driver for behavior of people.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 25 Jan 2013 11:57

the rhetoric about "Hindu terror" has gone too public now. looks like they are laying the ground for an emergency-type crackdown.
the "saffron" leaders should prepare themselves for all kind of fake cases, and "charge-sheets" to go up against them.
the central dogs will be unleashed on them. dark period ahead, I think. we should full expect to see Emergency 2.0, this time with the paid media bootlickers singing praises all the way...

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 25 Jan 2013 20:33

In UP too most riots happens between Dalits and "Peacfulls."

Jaipur Lit Fest: Spat between Javed Akhtar, Kancha Ilaiah

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... ium=tweets

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 25 Jan 2013 20:34

devesh wrote:the rhetoric about "Hindu terror" has gone too public now. looks like they are laying the ground for an emergency-type crackdown.
the "saffron" leaders should prepare themselves for all kind of fake cases, and "charge-sheets" to go up against them.
the central dogs will be unleashed on them. dark period ahead, I think. we should full expect to see Emergency 2.0, this time with the paid media bootlickers singing praises all the way...

This what Lashkar-E-Congress spokesman saying

@albatrossinfo
Congress spokesperson Rasool Khan officially says on CNN-IBN that RSS should/would be banned for being a terrorist organization!

They are going for the kill. Read Vindo Sharma's latest on CRI.

member_23629 · Post by **member_23629** » 25 Jan 2013 20:38

^^^ BJP derives its strength from RSS - it is common knowledge that Congis are going to ban it before the elections and have mass arrests of RSS leaders to cripple BJP. How low can a bunch of mercenary Hindu thugs stoop for money and power? They are willing to oppress Hindus in their own land and rule them by teaming up with Muslims. Not much different than what used to happen in medieval times. At this rate, it is not long before some Hindus take up weapons in desperation and anger.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 25 Jan 2013 20:39

Yes, if you roll over and play dead, it will only make things easy. RSS should practice that lest they hurt themselves while lying down or rolling over. I didnt hear a squeak after Shinde and Khurshid started farting lies.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 25 Jan 2013 21:32

http://rajeev2004.blogspot.in/2009/01/m ... ndhra.html

Missionary agenda of YSR CM of Andhra Pradesh: From the Horse's Mouth
Jan 25th, 2009

this is how the republic is supporting 'secularism', ie. the eradication of hinduism. very appropriate on republic day.

samuel reddy evangelizes at taxpayer expense.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sriram

Rajeev,
This is from someone in the hinduism forum who compiled data on the christist YSR on distributing state money to the missionaries.

thanks
Sriram

There are always allegations about the missionary zeal of the Christian Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh, Y.S Rajasekhara Reddy or commonly known as YSR. But many times due to absence of hard evidence, these are often discarded as nothing more than chest-thumping.

For people who believe only in "evidences" here it is. its a collection of all the Government Orders (GO) by the Government of AP allotting funds to various Churches in AP. source of information is no secret either. It is the online portal of Govt of AP listing all the GOs it issued (the government portals are treasure houses of information; you just have to know how to dig out what you need). You can see the data in this page:

http://suryassk.googlepages.com/AP_GOs.htm

The following is the summary of the data from that sheet:

1. The GO portal is active only from February 2008, hence the data given is only of 1 year (ie., Feb 2008 to Jan 2009). Note that although vast, it is by no means comprehensive (ie., I have shown Govt 263.07 lakhs to Christian institutions. This amount is the minimum spent on them, not the maximum).

2. But even for a single year, an amount of 263.07 lakhs was given as aid to various Christian institutions.

3. More than 258 churches benefited from these grants for construction/renovation of churches.

4. An amount of 1316.54 lakhs was given as aid to various Muslim institutions through Wakf boards.

5. Not a single GO granting any aid to a Hindu temple can be found. This in spite of the fact that in AP, the Hindu temples are managed by the Endowments Ministry (put it simply they take all the money which the temples generate).

6. Govt takes away all the money which Hindu temples generate, but do not grant a single penny to any of its temples. It does not touch the money from Christian and Muslim institutions, but grants them huge amounts of money.

I have always argued that the "Missionary Charity" is just a myth ( http://ssksurya.blogspot.com/2006/05/qu ... arity.html ). These new evidence only reinforce my earlier points. I do not want to waste more words how the Christian CM of AP is perusing his missionary zeal not just through individual actions, but also through direct grants from the Government of AP. As I said, the facts speak louder. Let the reader judge for himself.

member_23629 · Post by **member_23629** » 25 Jan 2013 21:42

^^^ Try telling this to the AP Hindus and they will laugh you out of town -- most of them thought YSR was a Hindu Reddy. Their eyes crossed when they heard he was buried not cremated. The same dudes will wholeheartedly now go and vote for Jagan even if he gives speeches thumping Bible. Hindus are their own enemies.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 Jan 2013 22:39

varunkumar wrote:^^^ Try telling this to the AP Hindus and they will laugh you out of town -- most of them thought YSR was a Hindu Reddy. Their eyes crossed when they heard he was buried not cremated. The same dudes will wholeheartedly now go and vote for Jagan even if he gives speeches thumping Bible. Hindus are their own enemies.

It is a reflection of the people in Andhra. The rest of the Hindus will start looking at Andhra people in different way in a short while.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Jan 2013 03:09

BTW Pranab Mukherjee used the words "moral compass needs to be reset"!!!

Samudragupta · Post by **Samudragupta** » 26 Jan 2013 09:00

ramana wrote:BTW Pranab Mukherjee used the words "moral compass needs to be reset"!!!

Ramanna Ji I feel

I am getting the feeling Pranab Mukherjeee would have become PVNR 2.0 and hence sidelined.....

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 26 Jan 2013 12:25

This is not just about 'codification' of value systems. This is about stressing what values the Indian State believes in. The codes and spirit of enquiry and subsequent Institutions that the GoI funds base themselves on that core. So if Truth is an enshrined value at the core of the State, a criticism of the HK or Purana's is par for the course, so is the participation of Rushdie in literary fests. Hurt sentiments be dammed. By underlining values, the plethora of institutions that would mould their functioning style cannot be understated. By underlining values of Compassion in the State, the inertness we see of State Institutions to sufferings of people, would lead to institutions sensitive to suffering. That in turn would lead to better quality service.

Today you have 99% holders that don't get an admission to colleges in India due to reservations. When you have those codes, equality and truth directly demand selection of such people into institutions over those that score 50%. Today with no values to guide, and socialism as, preamble/guide or secularism as preamble, truth and equality ans value systems have no place in GoI institutions and courts. They will say hard luck but we have to uphold Socialism and secularism first. That is our institutional duty.

The grips of aristocracy and vatican church came crumbling in Europe when value systems like Equality and Liberty were put at corner stone of policy. The Renaissance philosophers who borrowed heavily from India were a major contributer to such reform in Europe.

The day we evolve to understand why identification and putting into corner stone institutions based on value systems, we'll be a different nation altogether. Till then we will be rooted in confusion and agenda based groups will push and jock for space.

Values is not about some lessons in a moral science class or the President shouting about resetting Moral compass from the ramparts of the Red fort. It is about the nation identifying the cornerstones of it existence and being and moulding it's institutions as best to honor those values.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 26 Jan 2013 12:27

ramana wrote:BTW Pranab Mukherjee used the words "moral compass needs to be reset"!!!

That's the phrase you used and then many went into fits and rage. Don't know whether they are still twisting and twirling like a straw in the wind.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 26 Jan 2013 12:40

"Many of them have reflected this gender bias contrary to the constitutional mandate after swearing 'to bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of India', in addition to their fundamental duty 'to abide by the Constitution and respect its ideals'," the committee said.

"The time has come to enact laws providing for the subsequent disqualification of elected representatives on this ground alone," he said.

http://www.business-standard.com/genera ... ed/113806/

This from Justice Verma. However with the constitutional cornerstones/ ideals being in Secularism or as translated into appeasement politics, it is worth mentioning this may be a non starter as many groups demanding equality in rights and practice even though in contravention to basic human values that demand woman have the same rights will possibly not find much succor in a court of law. However if the cornerstones are rooted in value systems like Truth, Equality, Compassion..support for harassed women will have institutional support.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 26 Jan 2013 14:00

varunkumar wrote:^^^ BJP derives its strength from RSS - it is common knowledge that Congis are going to ban it before the elections and have mass arrests of RSS leaders to cripple BJP. How low can a bunch of mercenary Hindu thugs stoop for money and power? They are willing to oppress Hindus in their own land and rule them by teaming up with Muslims. Not much different than what used to happen in medieval times. At this rate, it is not long before some Hindus take up weapons in desperation and anger.

I wish INC does it now, but it never do so openly. This seems well thought out, lets see what unexpected events happen in the near future.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 26 Jan 2013 14:13

I would suggest the following as core principles for the state to promote-

1. Continuous striving for the 'Truth'
2. Respect for Regional Cultural heritage and Traditions
3. Mindset of continual self-improvement
& 4. Sapeksha Dharma (Mutual respect between faiths)

Sorry Arjun that got missed. To begin seeing India's core interests through fundamental values that we all strongly feel should be the basis of our interpersonal and personal-state and state-state interactions, it's always good to start by penning what one feels should be the guiding imperative values.

I would like a state anchored in simple principles like Pursuit of the Truth, Equality, Compassion say as cornerstones of it's polity and being. I may not respect Chanakya and Manu and their philosophy much, yet they are my truthful heritage that i should seek to preserve. Again if a faith talks about killing non adherents to it, then i cannot respect such a faith.

So while we respect the need to preserve heritage/ culture, we need not respect the heritage/culture in itself.

I would say rattle of these Dharmic traits ingrained almost everywhere across our ancient texts:

1. Satyam (Truth)
2. Dhrti (patience)
3. Ks’ama (forgiveness)
4. Dhama (self-control)
5. Shaoca (cleanliness)
6. Dhii (benevolent intellect)
7. Vidya (knowledge)
8. Karuna (Compassion).
9. Samatha (Equality)

WIth these for example as cornerstones prior to any Secularism, Socialism that we have put up in our preamble, how many Indians/ human beings really would and should oppose our institutions reflecting these simple values that Dharma wants us to uphold.

From the Rig Veda:

Ajyeshthaso akanishthasa
ete sam bhrataro vavridhuh saubhagaya

अज्येष्ठासो अकनिष्ठासा
एते सम भ्रतारो ववृधुह सौभाग्य

“No one is superior (ajyeshthasah) or inferior (akanishthasah). All are brothers (ete bhratarah). All should strive for the interest of all and should progress collectively (Saubhagaya sam vavridhuh)”.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 26 Jan 2013 15:16

harbans ji,

what about "shramm", "kartavya paalan"? What about kicking butt if somebody transgresses our sovereignty or security? What about expansion and growth? And what is "Dhrti" for? Is it about being patient when getting "nyaya"? Or should we show "Dhrti" when dealing with the growth of Islam? Perhaps "Dhrti" is the same thing as "Hope"! Would "Ks’ama" be useful when dealing with Pakis?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 26 Jan 2013 15:38

Rajesh Ji nowhere has anyone said don't kick butt to defend Dharma. Nations have kicked butt before to defend values, including India. We have our entire history talking about kicking adharma's butt. Rama kicked Adharma's butt too, yet he was known as a compassionate king. One cannot only talk kicking butt and vengeance always. The state and it's rulers must be compassionate. So don't go red seeing those terms. The present Indian state is seen weak because we don't believe as cornerstone much of what i posted and not because it is compassionate, has patience, has forgiveness as cornerstones.

Growth of Islamic fundamentalism has occurred because are cornerstones are warped. When we put secularism first and truth does not figure, state institutions and rulers will try and push the dirt under the carpet. With Truth as a cornerstone, Islams truth will come out much faster than you give credit for. But now we have Hate speech for which any group that feels 'hurt' will stop Truth in it's track from coming out.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 26 Jan 2013 15:40

harbans wrote:Sorry Arjun that got missed. To begin seeing India's core interests through fundamental values that we all strongly feel should be the basis of our interpersonal and personal-state and state-state interactions, it's always good to start by penning what one feels should be the guiding imperative values.

Agree with you that values should be a key basis - even if they may not be the only basis (ie other considerations may override values but then the justification in that scenario has to be strong). Alternately there needs to be a hierarchy of values so one knows which one has higher priority in case of any clash.

I would like a state anchored in simple principles like Pursuit of the Truth, Equality, Compassion say as cornerstones of it's polity and being.

I think Pursuit of Truth is a good value..though I have to say that even though it is already institutionalized as India's slogan, that has not stopped the government from trying to muzzle the media or occasionally subvert it.

The other implication of pursuit of Truth (I hope) would be that logic, science and individual pursuit of spiritual truth would prevail over any other religious dogma or political correctness.

Equality is a good idea only as long as it means "Equality of Rights and Opportunities" and not "Equality of Outcome". There is a danger that socialists, Marxists and other random do-gooders of which India has no shortage, would try and spin this as meaning the latter.

Compassion as an ideal is susceptible to extreme misuse by Socialists, WKKs, caste-based politicians, vote-bank practitioners, minorities-champions and other assorted riff-raff. It may not be a good idea to include it as an ideal in vague terms - unless defined explicitly in a manner that does not allow for such misuse.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 26 Jan 2013 15:54

Arjun socialist and secular versions win on their version of 'compassion' / 'Equality' because our preamble caters to them first. Socialist and Secular. Satyameva Jayate is just a slogan. There is no constitutional primacy to it. Just like the Dharma Chakra in the middle of the flag. Courts and GoI institutions cannot invoke them overriding Socialist and Secular dogma's.

IN a society where Truth is considered simple and apparent, it is obvious to a school boy that it is equality of opportunity that should be the guiding principle and not of outcome. A State that has no compassion resembles India today. People that get 90plus don't get colleges. The State makes people run around for death certificates, bang their heads in GoI offices for simple things. This is the example of a non compassionate state. Compassion is a MUST have quality for the ruler and State Institutions. It's inherent in Human beings. It's devoid in many who see through the prisms of Isms.

Look at the outrage generated at the Delhi rape. Would this happen if people had no compassion? Look at the lack of outrage at those who head Institutions in GoI and agenda based mavericks, Commies etc. Blame the victim. There is a group that showed outrage due to inherent compassion, and one group none because they have begun to lack compassion. If the State was compassionate, it would have been outraged at such action against innocents long back. It took the outrage of vast numbers of compassionate people to get the GoI to act a bit..under pressure.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 26 Jan 2013 16:18

harbans wrote:IN a society where Truth is considered simple and apparent, it is obvious to a school boy that it is equality of opportunity that should be the guiding principle and not of outcome.

Harbans ji, I have my own suspicions as to whether the IQ of dynastic scions running India approaches even the level of school-boys. So, I am Ok as long as the guiding principle explicitly mentions striving towards equality of rights and opportunity.

Look at the outrage generated at the Delhi rape. Would this happen if people had no compassion? Look at the lack of outrage at those who head Institutions in GoI and agenda based mavericks, Commies etc. Blame the victim. There is a group that showed outrage due to inherent compassion, and one group none because they have begun to lack compassion. If the State was compassionate, it would have been outraged at such action against innocents long back. It took the outrage of vast numbers of compassionate people to get the GoI to act a bit..under pressure.

I agree with you in this instance, but how does one prevent Compassion being misused by those who want it applied to Pakistan, or want to push NREGA despite it busting the national finances ? As mentioned to you earlier - I am not as optimistic as you are on the value systems or IQ of many of India's politicians.

I think Sapeksha Dharma (which is Rajiv Malhotra's pet phrase) is a good ideal. That forces the state to have some responsibility on the liberalism of religions in its territory. Also 'Respect for 'Cultural Heritage and Traditions' also enforces on the state the responsibility of promoting local cultural traditions (which are not illiberal) that may otherwise die out.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 26 Jan 2013 16:36

harbans wrote:Rajesh Ji nowhere has anyone said don't kick butt to defend Dharma. Nations have kicked butt before to defend values, including India. We have our entire history talking about kicking adharma's butt. Rama kicked Adharma's butt too, yet he was known as a compassionate king. One cannot only talk kicking butt and vengeance always. The state and it's rulers must be compassionate. So don't go red seeing those terms. The present Indian state is seen weak because we don't believe as cornerstone much of what i posted and not because it is compassionate, has patience, has forgiveness as cornerstones.

Growth of Islamic fundamentalism has occurred because are cornerstones are warped. When we put secularism first and truth does not figure, state institutions and rulers will try and push the dirt under the carpet. With Truth as a cornerstone, Islams truth will come out much faster than you give credit for. But now we have Hate speech for which any group that feels 'hurt' will stop Truth in it's track from coming out.

harbans ji,

It is not that I disagree with your ideals. There is absolutely nothing wrong with them. But you often like to simply skip over my argument.

You use context-free idealized labels which each group can and would interpret them in their own way. When I ask you about it, then you explain it in the Indian Civilizational context, but this context you desist from mentioning in next to your list of "value" labels.

What I am saying is that context here is of primary relevance. If you mention context, you wouldn't even have the need to mention "values" in addition.

So mentioning the context is more than sufficient. The context however is the "Bharatiya Civilization" which also forms our identity.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 26 Jan 2013 17:12

Code: Select all

but how does one prevent Compassion being misused by those who want it applied to Pakistan, or want to push NREGA despite it busting the national finances ?

Arjun, when the State puts values foremost in primacy, the plank that WKKs sit on is finished. The WKK plank is Paki's are like us. Simply that means we stand by the same value systems. Whereas they ignore one State stands by completely the opposite value systems than the people in this country. Through the planks of Secularism and it's distortions in India, this is being proven true to quite an extent. The WKKs like to highlight this part. The Dharmics curl up in anger. Yet they are unable to realize why they are angry at the equation. The equation of == is wrong because we cherish not the same value systems. Not because we have different rituals.

What that implies if our State clearly puts forward it's value systems, then the == is clearly exposed as FALSE. So until the Paki state clearly pushes similar value systems, the Indian state will clearly see the need to avoid contamination from those who have different value systems. So compassion in this case that undermines your core principles/ value systems is a chimera.

NREGA again is justified in the present constitutional primacy to Socialism. With simple value systems and a context put in, just redistribution of money and earnings in wasteful expenditures will be curtailed. When we put socialism as a preamble, we are asking for NREGA type schemes. The justification is in the constitutional primacy itself.

So mentioning the context is more than sufficient. The context however is the "Bharatiya Civilization" which also forms our identity.

Rajesh Ji, the civilization came about because of the primacy to these very values, not because of their absence. Irony is the more we move away from these values the more we fritter away our ethos and civilization. The more we move towards giving primacy to them, the nearer we move to them. Our Rishi's and Muni's became what they were not because they were dogmatic, but because they pursued truth, knowledge, reason most objectively. Thousands and thousands of our texts give primacy to these value systems..Rama and Krishna too fought to uphold these. We keep hearing Dharma protects Dharma. But we don;t have faith that upholding value systems will give us rootedness and strength to ward off attacks on them?