Indian Interests

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Prem
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Prem » 26 Mar 2010 23:54

Few years ago i mentioned that the best current Dharma we can do is to accumulate wealth in India and many good fellas here accused me of being greedy B. Granted we cant solve all the social, cultural/civilizational problems by throwing money at it but money is still only one step lower than Almighty and can do wonder for many issues we face presently. The major reason or one of the many reasons Non indians of Mother Predator (AVP) kind have influence in defining "us" is the wealthy patronage provided by them to their Indian babies preying on all possible domestic targets. I think once the per capita Income exceeds 3ka year we will see paradigm shift in Indian mindset .As long as we dont go the way of Philippine, we will do ok. Dont let them ban/atatck desi festival festivites , this will be sure death knell for Snatani Sabhyata .

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Masaru » 27 Mar 2010 14:37

Much of it has to do with money - as in the sourcing and application of it in the endeavour that you describe. I am convinced that in the future, significant monies will come from the private sector that will change the way we look at these things and maintain them.

It will come. We need not worry. We only need to do our individual bit. At the moment, the best thing you can do is make money, and help other Indians to make money. We need to get rich. As fast as possible.


While I agree that lack of resources in general and money in particular has been an obstacle in the path for application of greater effort and energy towards preserving and promoting the cultural heritage that is not the whole picture.

With greater income no doubt donations from private citizens will increase. However, this will merely enrich the coffers of the boards which administer these funds. There is no guarantee that this resource will be utilized for promoting/preserving/propagating Indian cultural heritage. IIRC the Tirupati temple has never had any lack of resources, and is some times claimed to have resources next only to the Vatican. But has any of these significant resources been utilized for funding research or to promote and popularize the learning of the ancient arts, culture or traditions in a consistent manner?

Though private individual and organization, can and should play vital roles, the mandate of having a coherent national narrative drawing upon a rich 5000 year old history, has to be undertaken at a national scale; and naturally it won't be successful without at least a modicum of support from the ruling govt. Claiming that the GoI simp[url][/url]ly doesn't have money for these activities just won't fly. Resources have never been a constraint for GoI when it comes to certain 'secular' endeavors. For instance generous subsidy (to the tune of ~400 million annually based on conservative estimates) for travel and related infrastructure is provided by the 'secular' state to a certain community for pilgrimage. Even during the resource crunch of 70s this splurge went on unabated. Greater economic resources at the disposal of GoI will lead to more splurging in protecting such endeavours to protect and promote the 'minority space' as is clearly seen by the recent decision to open 4 campuses of AMU.

In contrast, how much does it cost to open 1000 odd chair professorship positions in universities in India and abroad promoting India related research? Do any of the top educational institutes in India even have a department related to these affairs? Are there sufficient funds available to attract talented individuals and encourage research into areas of national heritage and culture. How much does it cost to have a well maintained national museum and archival center for ancient manuscripts and historical documents which can be accessed for research? For example how easy would it be for an academic to source the oldest manuscripts of Arthashastra/Charaka Samhita/Ashatdhyayi/Surya Siddhanta as a resource for research? Is there an expert in classical Sanskrit literature an e-mail away for consulting on a technical matter related to translating one of these texts? Whose responsibility is this to create and sustain these resources before they are lost for good? Why does GoI run to Japan/PRC/Korea/Thailand with a begging bowl to protect ancient Buddhist ruins and opening up Nalanda? Is it not its duty and responsibility to protect these sites regardless or is Buddha no longer part of India's heritage because he doesn't bring in any immediate electoral gains? Is this the correct image portraying India's cultural heritage to the global audience at significant expense of tax payers money? One may as well use that image in the tourism brochure of KSA/Turkey or any random gulf state!


Every major nation which takes pride in its past cultural achievements and seeks to have a prominent role in global mind space devotes significant resources to promote its values and culture by establishing centers. Even the communist PRC is out promoting Confucius to plant its flag in the global cultural landscape and is fast making efforts to appropriate Buddhism as a Chinese construct. People here can do an informal survey as to how many people outside India associate Yoga as an Indian tradition and that the term 'Avatar' derives on an Indian construct to see how effectively Indian cultural space is protected and promoted.

Though these issues may seem far removed from the daily struggles for bread and butter or for that matter security related issues, it is a very significant part of national consciousness and identity. Absence of this creates space for outsiders to promote ideologies which ultimately will be detrimental to the health of the nation.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby JE Menon » 27 Mar 2010 17:20

>>that is not the whole picture.

Of course it is not the whole picture boss, just an important part of it. There are other parts: neglect by public and private sectors, more urgent priorities, simple apathy, indifference and even in some cases contempt, an utter lack of appreciation for or sensitivity towards our historical heritage (remember the field of archaeology was introduced by the British), vandalism based on poverty, you name it.

We have a long long way to go, but moves are slowly and steadily, if erratically, being made. Is it enough? For me it will never be enough until we have the best preserved historical monuments and sites in the world, by far. It will, however, take a lot of time.

My point is that it is only going to improve. We have turned the corner in this respect. Things are looking good for the Indian civilisation, from here on and for a while at least, provided we counter any aggressor in any form of fray (and I don't mean this only in terms of military war).

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Jarita » 03 Apr 2010 23:26

Can someone stop UPA from selling everything out to the west - nuke security, education, water, minerals etc

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 04 Apr 2010 02:36

Sometime ago I had proposed creating a database of our important listed archaeological sites, starting from ASI info, and then augmenting it with our own data - like geographical coordinates etc, historical details likely to be suppressed by "professional historians", local folklore, time periods and so on. I have experimentally put up the case for Andhra in the "archaeology thread" within GDF. Can fellow BRFites post additional info?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Prem » 06 Apr 2010 04:23

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 755197.cms
Think Tanks In India's Democracy
has the second largest number of think tanks in the world after the United States. This is not surprising given that both countries are democracies and encourage public debate. What do think tanks do or what should they do? Do we need them? Think tanks come in all kinds of shapes and sizes and vary in terms of their roles and functions. A fairly standard view of think tanks is that they are autonomous institutions autonomous from their funding sources, public or private that are tasked to contribute to the making of public policy. In this view, think tanks are part of the structure of governance even though they have no official role. It is the dream of think tanks to influence if not shape public policy. The truth is that even in the US, where think tanks are abundant and where some are almost household words (RAND, the Brookings Institution), the relationship of these institutions to policy is difficult to trace in any very conclusive way. In India, think tanks constantly bemoan the fact that South Block does not take them seriously, that it does not share information with them and that it does not involve them in shaping policy. This is largely a futile complaint.

AND
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 134182.cms
422 and counting... Think tanks boom in India

( Who funds these "thinkers")

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 06 Apr 2010 04:48

They are the new NGOs.
The get funded by those who want to create new policy stalemates.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby csharma » 13 Apr 2010 11:48

This article shows the huge amounts of money being pumped into India by foreign missionaries. Presents MHA numbers.

Do foreign contributions to India impact security?

http://business.rediff.com/slide-show/2 ... curity.htm

The inflow of foreign contributions to India needs to be monitored better to ensure that the funds are are not misused, says Sanjeev Nayyar.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby AjayKK » 13 Apr 2010 12:05

csharma wrote:This article shows the huge amounts of money being pumped into India by foreign missionaries. Presents MHA numbers.

Do foreign contributions to India impact security?

http://business.rediff.com/slide-show/2 ... curity.htm

The inflow of foreign contributions to India needs to be monitored better to ensure that the funds are are not misused, says Sanjeev Nayyar.


Very well written article. Sanjeev Nayyar is always a pleasure to read.

From the article:

Some states with secular governments get most of the funds with Delhi alone 1,716 crores :eek:

Amongst the states, the largest recipients of contributions were Delhi Rs 1,716 crore (Rs 17.16 billion), Tamil Nadu Rs 1,671 core (Rs 16.71 billion), Andhra Pradesh Rs 1,167 core (Rs 11.67 billion), Karnataka Rs 890 crore (Rs 8.90 billion), Maharashtra Rs 885 core (Rs 8.85 billion), Kerala Rs 801 crore (Rs 8.01 billion), West Bengal Rs 541 crore (Rs 5.41 billion)


Some secular donors:

Largest donors were World Vision, USA, Rs 578 crore (Rs 5.78 billion), Gospel for Asia Inc, USA, 365 crore (Rs 3.65 billion), Fundacion Vicente Ferrer, Barcelona, Spain, 248 crore (Rs 2.48 billion), Brahmanand Saraswati Trust, UK, Rs 209 crore (Rs 2.09 billion), Action Aid International Rs 184 crore (Rs 1.84 billion) and Fundacion Vicente Ferrer, Spain, Rs 158 crore (Rs 1.58 billion).

Barring a couple, all donor agencies appear to be 'secular'.


Some secular recipients:

The largest recipients were World Vision of India, Tamil Nadu, 212 crore (Rs 2.12 billion); Rural Development Trust, Andhra Pradesh, Rs 125 crore (Rs 1.25 billion); Believers Church India, Kerala, Rs 102 crore (Rs 1.02 billion); Action Aid Karnataka Rs 92 crore (Rs 920 million); Caritas, Delhi, Rs 90 crore (Rs 900 million), and Gospel for Asia, Kerala, Rs 86 crore (Rs 860 million).

These appear to be secular organisations, too.




A few questions arise. Is there a mechanism by which the home ministry counter checks that heads of accounts under which expenditure is reported is actually that under which money was spent?


Why must India receive money from abroad to set up schools and colleges? If the government were to deregulate the education sector and create a transparent regulatory framework there is enough entrepreneurial ability and money in India to set up quality educational institutions that cater to all sections of society.

Food for thought


* The government of India does not appear to know the total amount remitted to all 34,803 associations registered under FCRA.

* Why is the secular world remitting crores (billions) of rupees into India every year?

* Is there any underlying motive behind most of the inflows going to the southern states, Delhi and Maharashtra?

* Does the government of India have a reasonable estimate of the money that comes in from the Middle East through the hawala route?

* Should not the home ministry have independent chartered accountants to randomly audit the accounts of associations to ensure that money is used for what it was meant for and reporting under FCRA is correct?

* Must not the home ministry initiate penal action against associations that fail to submit audited accounts as stipulated?

* In the absence of the above there is a possibility that some inflows could be used for spreading terrorism!

* What is the impact of these large inflows on national security and India's social fabric?

* Does not the government of India need to further regulate inflows and tighten controls?

* Should not Resident Indians take note and substantially increase their contribution to social causes in tribal and rural areas?

It appears that the nation has so far not paid adequate attention to inflows under FCRA and its consequences. Recent massacre of 76 CRPF jawans by Maoists should be a wakeup call!

All data is taken from the FCRA reports published by the home ministry, Government of India.


"Secularism" practiced in our country is like chemotherapy employed on the cancer of jihad. If the cancer of evangelical and Islamic jihads do no harm or kill the body fabric of the nation , then such chemotherapy sessions in the name of "secular" treatment will definitely do the same.

PS: The YSR thread was closed, wasn't someone asking (trolling?) for "figures" and questions like "Did YSR really encourage evangelical jehadis" ? When such articles do emerge, the cheerful questioners maintain silence. Perhaps email addresses are cheap.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby csharma » 13 Apr 2010 12:25

The largest recipient is World Vision which I believe is active in Kandhamal Orissa. World vision is also connected with the "The Family" which was exposed in a book by Jeff Sharlet last year.

http://www.amazon.com/Family-Secret-Fun ... 0060559799

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby shravan » 13 Apr 2010 12:58

Some of the NGO Money is definitely going to Afghanistan via India.

Afghanistan is the best thing that happened
January 13, 2010

Afghanistan is the best thing that happened to the Jesuits in South Asia, says Father Hector D’Souza, who on May 31 last year completed a five-year term as provincial of the Jesuits in South Asia
..........
Two days before he left office, the 59-year-old priest gave the following interview to UCA News:

What else did the South Asian Jesuits do?

Our greatest venture was in Afghanistan. We went to that war-ravaged country in 2005. There are nine Jesuits from South Asia now working there. Two more will join them soon.

Afghanistan is the best thing that happened to the Jesuits in South Asia. The Afghan mission has energized our provinces and given them a new zeal. It has convinced our men that they can go to areas that they could never dream of reaching.
......
We have also managed to change the Afghan people’s attitude toward NGOs. We brought several top-level government officials to India and helped them understand how real NGOs work. The CRS paid for their travel and we took care of their stay in India. The Afghan government has changed many laws about NGOs after those visits.

How did you manage to win over people?

Afghans love Indians. They tell us that Indians are their people. Last year I took six trips to the Missionaries of Charity house in Kabul. Every time the taxi drivers refused to take money after they found out that I was from India. I had to force them to accept the money. India has built roads and runs the public transport and a major hospital in Kabul. Except for the Taliban, everyone appreciates Indians. So we had an easy entry point as Indians.

All of us, even our senior men, have learned Dari, the local language. We have put our heart and soul into it. That also made a big difference.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby svinayak » 14 Apr 2010 02:11

csharma wrote:The largest recipient is World Vision which I believe is active in Kandhamal Orissa. World vision is also connected with the "The Family" which was exposed in a book by Jeff Sharlet last year.

http://www.amazon.com/Family-Secret-Fun ... 0060559799

And the "The Family" is connected to US government and many organization round the world.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby sumshyam » 15 Apr 2010 17:49

India to have strategic oil reserve by October 2011

India will complete building its first strategic crude oil storage by October 2011 in an effort to insulate itself from supply disruptions.

India, which is 75 per cent import dependent to meet its crude oil needs, is building under-ground storages at Visakhapatnam in Andhra Pradesh and Mangalore and Padur in Karnataka to store about 5.33 million tons of crude oil. This is enough to meet nation's oil requirement of 13-14 days.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RamaY » 15 Apr 2010 21:05

Good find CSharma garu.

AjayKK garu, we need to keep this information available so in the next round of Kandhamal we can present the data... we have to pacify many layers of EJ-waves before our voices can be heard.

Now we need to get the impact information. How many lives were +vely touched by these funds, and how many were converted to Xty. My guess is that this ratio will not be 1:1. That analysis we must do.

The next step is to extrapolate how much work and investments Indics have to do to protect the core Indic-belts.

Then we need to question why GOI is not using the tax revenues to address this. This should be used to influence political leadership.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 15 Apr 2010 23:29

World Vision appears to be active in China! Can anyone explore "how"? If they have been "allowed", it will be interesting to follow up.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RamaY » 20 Apr 2010 07:46

So what did MMS promise to TSPA in return for a charade of 11/26 trials? slowing down power projects on Indus tributaries?

Earlier he successfully reduced budget allocations to Indian nuclear programs leading up to nook-deal.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 21 Apr 2010 21:55

Book Review in Pioneer of Pavan Verma's book

AGENDA | Sunday, April 18, 2010 | Email | Print |


A Mighty (Indian) Heart

This book represents an inner journey for the author in search of an identity. It’s the reflection of a mind which has been a victim of an emotional turmoil that is rocking his very cultural roots, and poses the all-important question: Would we like to be swamped by external influences or prefer to promote our Indian identity in ways more than merely formal?

Writes Rajesh Singh

Becoming Indian: The Unfinished Revolution of Culture and Identity
Author:Pavan K Varma
Publisher: Allen Lane
Price: Rs 499

This is truly an Indian heart at work. Alternately anguished, upset and outraged over what it sees as growing insubordination of the Indian cultural identity to superfluous Western influences, the heart skips a beat or two in its impassioned narration of the betrayal by the educated class of many things Indian — language, art, literature, architecture, films, the performing arts, mannerisms. At first glance, it may appear to be the lamentation of a spoiler, a cynic, or even a hypocrite who uses the very same medium that it derides as ‘un-Indian’ to express its very Indian outpourings. Indeed, some critics say this Indian Heart has gone overboard and is perched dangerously close to becoming a fundamentalist.

There are also those sufficiently aroused ones who have taken exception to the ‘assault’ on English — a universal language without which the nation would in their opinion come to a standstill. In their agitated state, they have even gone to the ludicrous extent of claiming that Indian languages actually flourished during the English rule.

But Pavan Varma is not a bigot. Disenchanted he may be, he has no cause to be a spoiler. He belongs to the elite Indian Foreign Service cadre, is a distinguished government servant and has many of the comforts of life that millions of ordinary Indians cannot even dream of. He has traveled the world, dined the best and with the best, has a job that will keep him secure even after he quits it and is miles away from the daily crises that the average Indian confronts: Power outages, water scarcity, untrustworthy public transportation etc. He is, after all, a product of the system that he now finds stifling. What, oh, what, asks the agitated Middle class India, is wrong with this man? Someone please shut him up.

(Yes, Pavanji, it is the same Great Indian Middle Class you had lampooned in an earlier book which is out to take revenge. You have yet again dared to take it head on. Then, you had questioned its moral ethos, now, its loyalty to Indianness).

So, even as the author’s critics froth around the mouth and condemn him to the cave age, with perhaps only the Vedas for company — for, in their perception the Vedas represented the caveman period — they are unable in their over-exuberance to understand that, not once does Varma in his remarkable book speak against English or the foreign attitudes. He makes just one point, over and over again, throughout the narration: Be proud of your language and culture; demonstrate it, wear it on your sleeve. Platitudes will not suffice, go beyond.

The book acquires a greater meaning for us if we appreciate that it represents an inner journey for the author in search of an identity. Varma is not a preacher who is bent on converting us to his way of thinking; he is a victim of an emotional turmoil that is rocking his very cultural roots. He can no longer be ambivalent; he has to take a stand. Would he like to be swamped by external influences or would he prefer to promote his Indian identity in ways more than merely formal? And, that is the question before us all.

One can argue that the Indian heart is a robust one and can withstand knocks one too many; that being Indian is a state of mind and not of physical display; that the likes of Varma haven’t patented the right to be Indian culture’s torch-bearers — in fact they are the cry-wolf types. Bravo! The Great Indian Middle Class at work again. But seriously, is it possible for a cultural identity to survive beyond decades and centuries if it is not practised — and thus passed on to succeeding generations? We have the recent case of nearly 200 Indian languages facing extinction because of their diminishing usage by newer generations. And, a language represents a vital thread of the nation’s cultural fabric.

But, as Varma argues, language is but one element that binds us to our culture. There are other milestones that indicate the direction our cultural instincts are taking us in. They are to be found in our art, literature, architecture, films, the performing arts, mannerisms — as mentioned earlier. The author has chosen these parameters rather cleverly as they would help a multitude of readers across the country to relate to his battle-cry. They are also fields where cultural ‘corruption’ — distinct from desirable fusion — is most alarmingly evident.

For instance, he talks of the penchant of many travellers on the Delhi-Chandigarh Shatabdi train to respond in English even when spoken to in Hindi, lest the traveller is considered uneducated. None can dispute the tendency. The fixation with the English language is all around us. In Varma’s words, the marvellous English prose of novelist Nirad Chaudhuri made him no less of a “caricature” of the “pucca Brown Sahib” or the “Brown Englishman”. The author holds him responsible for not using his “vast intellectual resources to chisel an authentic identity for himself. Instead he chose to become the most flamboyantly learned mimic of an alien civilisation.”

Varma is scathing in his assault on the Indian establishment’s fawning over Western icons — and even over those who were far from being icons in their native countries. He talks of Nehru’s almost child-like fascination for things and people Western. If he had not got the New Delhi project, Lutyens would have remained unknown as he was considered a failure in the West. Le Corbusier could not get major contracts back home in France and one of his architectural plans for Paris had been summarily rejected. Yet, he is an iconic figure in India for ‘designing’ Chandigarh. The author of course is dismissive of both efforts. In his view, while New Delhi got planned by systematically brushing aside the cultural epicenter of the Old, thus condemning that region and the river Yamuna on which it once thrived to a pitiable existence, Chandigarh, with its over-systematic lay-out lacks the soul of India.

The author gives us an insight into what these men really thought of India and Indians. He quotes Lutyens on a train journey from Delhi to what was then Bombay: “Some fat blacks occupied the only ladies carriage — and you mustn’t occupy a carriage they have used.” In Varanasi, while cruising down the river Ganges, he remarked: “Every sort of black body doing every sort of thing.” Finally, the great Lutyens’ take on the inability of Indian princes to dance: “…a pity, but the only possible solution to the horror of seeing a black man embrace a white woman.” All in all, as Varma points out, Lutyens considered Indians to be “natives with low intellect,” — but that did not prevent Nehru from rewarding him.

It is today fashionable to think globally and shun anything that appears parochial. Thus, projecting and promoting one’s cultural identity is passé. But, as the author says, “There is no contradiction between being culturally rooted and being a global citizen. On the contrary, only those who are so rooted win genuine respect.”

As the world grapples with a number of socio-economic and political conflicts, Varma notes with a touch of deep insight, “The flashpoints of the future may appear to be political. But the real causes are rooted in the unresolved issues of culture and identity.”

Is anybody listening?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby vera_k » 22 Apr 2010 05:16

brihaspati wrote:World Vision appears to be active in China! Can anyone explore "how"? If they have been "allowed", it will be interesting to follow up.


No mystery here. This type of activity should be the next step for Indian groups too.

World Vision in China

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Karna_A » 22 Apr 2010 05:47

The author gives us an insight into what these men really thought of India and Indians. He quotes Lutyens on a train journey from Delhi to what was then Bombay: “Some fat blacks occupied the only ladies carriage — and you mustn’t occupy a carriage they have used.” In Varanasi, while cruising down the river Ganges, he remarked: “Every sort of black body doing every sort of thing.” Finally, the great Lutyens’ take on the inability of Indian princes to dance: “…a pity, but the only possible solution to the horror of seeing a black man embrace a white woman.” All in all, as Varma points out, Lutyens considered Indians to be “natives with low intellect,” — but that did not prevent Nehru from rewarding him.


Nehru did not award anything important to Lutyens. Lutyens was dead in 1944.
Lutyens was given the project for Delhi around 1912 or so when Nehru was not so well known.

Lutyens may not like Indians, but his wife had great admiration for Hinduism and was a disciple of J. Krishnamurti.
I believe they separated due to this as Lutyens thinking was only skin deep, and was clueless that there is spirituality beyond "Eat, Drink and be Merry" world.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Pranav » 22 Apr 2010 09:07

ramana wrote:Book Review in Pioneer of Pavan Verma's book

AGENDA | Sunday, April 18, 2010 | Email | Print |


A Mighty (Indian) Heart

This book represents an inner journey for the author in search of an identity. It’s the reflection of a mind which has been a victim of an emotional turmoil that is rocking his very cultural roots, and poses the all-important question: Would we like to be swamped by external influences or prefer to promote our Indian identity in ways more than merely formal?
...

Is anybody listening?


IMHO, Indian identity will survive and grow on its own merits, because people around the world find it attractive. Any identity that people don't find attractive and inspiring, probably does not deserve to survive in the marketplace of ideas.

The only concern is how to preserve the wisdom that exists in Indian languages - it seems inevitable that in 100 years, English will be the primary language for a majority of the world's population.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Sanku » 22 Apr 2010 10:53

Pranav wrote:IMHO, Indian identity will survive and grow on its own merits, because people around the world find it attractive. Any identity that people don't find attractive and inspiring, probably does not deserve to survive in the marketplace of ideas.


True, but that assumes that the marketplace is truly free. We are all aware of economic theories of capitalism and free market being efficient in certain conditions.

So is the market place really free? Has it ever been?

Did the weavers of Bengal bleach their bones in merciless sun on parched grounds because their products could not compete?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Pranav » 22 Apr 2010 16:56

Sanku wrote:
Pranav wrote:IMHO, Indian identity will survive and grow on its own merits, because people around the world find it attractive. Any identity that people don't find attractive and inspiring, probably does not deserve to survive in the marketplace of ideas.


True, but that assumes that the marketplace is truly free. We are all aware of economic theories of capitalism and free market being efficient in certain conditions.

So is the market place really free? Has it ever been?

Did the weavers of Bengal bleach their bones in merciless sun on parched grounds because their products could not compete?


Valid point ... the mass media and the educational system is used to denigrate native Indic thoughts and traditions, and promote foreign ones. Also, there is a whitewashing of the genocides and crimes that Indic peoples have suffered (so as to leave them mentally disarmed against crimes that are being perpetrated at present, or are planned for the near future).

But Indic thoughts and traditions will be preserved only when individuals discover them, and find them valuable. A book appealing to people's patriotism will not be that useful, IMHO.
Last edited by Pranav on 22 Apr 2010 22:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Sanku » 22 Apr 2010 17:23

Pranav wrote:But Indic thoughts and traditions will be preserved only when individuals discover them, and find them valuable. A book appealing to people's patriotism will not be that useful, IMHO.


Well appealing to patriotism is one way to set off the journey of self discovery a initial jolt.

Certainly folks wont accept it since its written in some book, we are after all Indians. :wink:

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 22 Apr 2010 19:19

I agree with Sankuji broadly. But the problem is when you appeal to patriotism - it is patriotism to which idea of the nation? Is there clarity in the definition, characterization, ethics, philosophy, cultural foundations of the "nation" to which we are appealing for patriotism to?

There should also be a clear definition of the nation based on culture and philosophy, and not just whatever "exists" within the political boundaries at present.

I think the search, Sankuji is referring to is both individual and collective. The individual search when successful is a more reassured and stable one than the ones that succeed only within the collective [group influence, coercion, fear, incentives]. However both should perhaps be attempted.

I have long felt the need for explicit symbolism, in cultural elements - dress, style of linguistic interactiosn [greetings for example], or even explicit rejection of elements that we want to delink from the identity. This is a long struggle. From "critical mass theory" I can suggest that initially only those with high motivation will join in, but once sufficient numbers join in and show benefits [of psychologicla well being to start with] the joining rate will increase from the fence sitters.

On a similar note, my long term dream is to see the Rashtrapati Bhavan and the Parliament building to be changed into History and Culture museums that focus on showcasing the effects and impact of imperialism on India, even cultural venues that host festivals and film fests. In that way it could earn its own upkeep - but a new Rashtrapati bhavan and Lok-Sabha be built - modest an d not ostentatious as the British versions are, as they do not go with Indian ethics or image of the "ruler". That needs a new architectural aspiration perhaps - but they do not reflect India, they reflect British Imperialism.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby svinayak » 22 Apr 2010 21:56

brihaspati wrote:
On a similar note, my long term dream is to see the Rashtrapati Bhavan and the Parliament building to be changed into History and Culture museums that focus on showcasing the effects and impact of imperialism on India, even cultural venues that host festivals and film fests. In that way it could earn its own upkeep - but a new Rashtrapati bhavan and Lok-Sabha be built - modest an d not ostentatious as the British versions are, as they do not go with Indian ethics or image of the "ruler". That needs a new architectural aspiration perhaps - but they do not reflect India, they reflect British Imperialism.

Great. I have to give credit to you for this brilliant idea. This is the true decolonization project for Indians.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby brihaspati » 23 Apr 2010 00:04

Acharya ji, just a dream, please don;t say a brilliant idea. :oops: I also find that it is unethical to have a place that was built with money extracted from the blood and sweat of Indians and even now maintained out of the common tax-payer's money to which the common tax-payer has virtually no access and has no utility derived from it.

If out of security reasons certain public places and official residences have to be restricted, let they not be ostentatious [ it does not fit with the ideals of Indian "kingship"] but simple and economical to maintain and run. Those two are among a list of buildings which I have never stepped into even from childhood, even though I had the opportunity to do so on many occasions.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby svinayak » 23 Apr 2010 02:30

brihaspati wrote:Acharya ji, just a dream, please don;t say a brilliant idea. :oops:

OK I will not say that.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Muppalla » 25 Apr 2010 02:26

I don't know but I have a feeling that MMS is being put on exit mode. The phone tapping expose in Outlook may be a plant by some Gandhi family friends to get the handle to exit him. The media is firmly in the clutches of Gandhi family and something against government especially in the Outlook magzine is unbeleivable. pressure cooker has overcooked in UPA-2. Even with 208 seats they are strugling more that UPA-1. Just my thoughts.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Manish_Sharma » 25 Apr 2010 03:37

Karna_A wrote:
Lutyens may not like Indians, but his wife had great admiration for Hinduism and was a disciple of J. Krishnamurti.
I believe they separated due to this as Lutyens thinking was only skin deep, and was clueless that there is spirituality beyond "Eat, Drink and be Merry" world.

Yes and their Mary Lutyens daughter is the Biographer of J. Krishnamurti, she was with him when he died in 1986.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Pranav » 25 Apr 2010 08:02

Muppalla wrote:I don't know but I have a feeling that MMS is being put on exit mode. The phone tapping expose in Outlook may be a plant by some Gandhi family friends to get the handle to exit him. The media is firmly in the clutches of Gandhi family and something against government especially in the Outlook magzine is unbeleivable. pressure cooker has overcooked in UPA-2. Even with 208 seats they are strugling more that UPA-1. Just my thoughts.


That is an interesting thought.

Usually, imperialists carry out their subversion in very gradual stages. Let us look at what has happened so far, and extrapolate how this process might continue in India. It is speculative, but it is based on historical experience.

The foundation was laid by getting the BJP govt to use EVMs with foreign-installed binaries, and opening the Indian media to foreign investment.

Then, we had the suspect election of 2004 (book by GVLNR downloadable for free from http://www.indianevm.com/book_democracy ... k_2010.pdf). After there was a backlash to the idea of Sonia becoming PM, IMF nominee Manmohan Singh was put into power, with the remote control in the hands of Sonia.

Now, Sonia remains an enigma. But we have to take note of the credible reports of her history of being on payroll of foreign agencies, and also the reports about people close to her supporting the Maoists. (Very recently a mob of Congressmen freed a Maoist king-pin from police custody in Silvassa - see Red Menace thread.) It is also to be noted how Sonia kept her loyalist Shivraj Patil in charge of the Home Ministry for as long as possible, until it became politically impossible.

The present period is being used for ideological conditioning of the masses, and also for quietly putting into positions of power thoroughly corrupt people like Pratibha Patil and thoroughly amoral people like Navin Chawla.

The Church organizations, many of which are controlled by western plutocrats, are also quietly doing their work. Once sufficient numbers of souls have been harvested, riots will be engineered, which will in turn be used to demonize Indic people through the controlled media. The goal will be to turn the converts into useful idiots, working against their own country,

Now MMS, despite his ideological affinity for colonial subservience, is still Indian at heart. MMS is probably still trying very hard to delude himself that the colonial powers want to be benevolent to the natives. Therefore he may not fully cooperate when the time comes to crack the whip. So he cannot be relied on beyond a point.

The next stage of the subversion process would be to somehow thwart Chidambaram and make Rahul the PM. Now Rahul has grown up in the company of European relatives, and has been educated abroad - so he would see the world in way that is different from Indic peoples. Election victory of Rahul would be guaranteed by EVMs, while the controlled media would go overboard in hailing the new king. Under the PM-ship of Rahul the subversion process would be carried further.

Most people can be kept in line very easily. The business community will easily succumb once the whip is cracked - just the threat of a tax raid would be enough. Politicians will quake if they are threatened with exposure of their foreign bank accounts.

A very critical position that will be subverted is the governor-ship of the RBI. Generally western plutocrats prefer to gain control over economies by using monetary policies to cause repeated expansion-contraction cycles. The US has been through many such cycles since the monetary policy was handed over to the privately-owned Federal Reserve Corporation. The principle of taking over an economy through such cycles is simple - it is analogous to how a trader could become rich by knowing which way the price of oil was going to turn tomorrow.

Gradually, industrialization will be crippled on the pretext of global warming. The Maoists will also be used against the economy. The population will be slowly poisoned through genetically modified food. The terminator-seed technology will also be used to prevent any independence amongst the farmers. Learning disabilities and autism rates will be made to sky-rocket by poisoning babies through vaccines. There are many other such tools which will be put into use.

As was mentioned at the beginning, this is speculative, but it is based on historical experience of how neo-colonization has been achieved in other countries.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby svinayak » 25 Apr 2010 08:37

Pranav wrote:
The foundation was laid by getting the BJP govt to use EVMs with foreign-installed binaries, and opening the Indian media to foreign investment.

I have done some preliminary study on this aspect of opening up these two sectors.
It looks like during the NDA regime there was a move to declare that it was a fascist govt. The only way to counter that there was pressure to open up the media sector

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RamaY » 25 Apr 2010 21:33

^ The scripting is being done very carefully.

Any nationalistic govt can be and will be branded fascist if not aligned with western power centers. Even a organized action would result in counter force and immediately branded as a fascist.

An example is N.Modi. He is called names even after he got elected three times in a row using the same processes such as EVMs, open media etc.

The way out is to return the favor. Strengthen the nationalist hands within UPA and Left Front (if any) and make laws that serve Indian Interests.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby SSridhar » 26 Apr 2010 14:54

India gets increased voting power in the World Bank
India's voting power increased from 2.77 per cent to 2.91 per cent while China whose rights increased from 2.77 per cent to 4.42 per cent was the biggest benefactor.

The shift places India at the seventh biggest place after the United States (15.85 per cent), Japan (6.84 per cent), China, Germany (4 per cent), France (3.75 per cent) and the United Kingdom (3.75 per cent).

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby AjayKK » 26 Apr 2010 18:03

Muppalla wrote:I don't know but I have a feeling that MMS is being put on exit mode. The phone tapping expose in Outlook may be a plant by some Gandhi family friends to get the handle to exit him. The media is firmly in the clutches of Gandhi family and something against government especially in the Outlook magzine is unbeleivable. pressure cooker has overcooked in UPA-2. Even with 208 seats they are strugling more that UPA-1. Just my thoughts.


The Outlook article does not seem to harm the position or aura of the PM. It seems to send a message to the three leaders, Sharad Pawar, Nitish Kumar and Prakash Karat.

When are the cut motions (with voting ?) of the Opposition parties coming? The chief party in the UPA 2 seems to be in a hurry to cut its allies-opponents like Sharad Pawar to size by adopting a Big brother attitude. It is also cutting deals with others like Mayawati though.

http://www.ptinews.com/news/626711_No-danger-to-Government--Congress-on-cut-motion

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Pranav » 26 Apr 2010 19:20

^^^ I think that Outlook article is more an attack on Chidambaram:

Topping Kumar’s agenda are the alleged misdeeds of the agency’s second-in-command, Dr M.S. Vijayaraghavan, a former DRDO scientist who was inducted into NTRO under mysterious circumstances. Why was someone who had spent his professional life working with semi-conductors and heading a facility that dealt with silicon chips chosen to head a technical intelligence organisation? His detractors attribute it to his proximity to the scientific advisor to the prime minister, R. Chidambaram.

The high-powered committee has been asked to look into some of the allegations of misappropriation and misconduct against Vijayaraghavan. These are:

* He chaired several price negotiation committees, including one that purchased a large number of routers from US firm CISCO Systems in an order worth US $1 million. Subsequent to the purchase, Vijayaraghavan’s daughter was employed by CISCO. Did the promise of a job influence the deal?


http://outlookindia.com/article.aspx?265193


Apparently this Kumar has been inducted into the NTRO, which I suppose reports directly to the PMO ... Kumars job seems to be to conduct an inquiry against Vijayraghavan who is said to be close to PC ... A $1 million order to CISCO seems pretty small ... a company would not hire a relative for such a small order ... unless there is something more sinister going on ... after all if I wanted to spy what better way to do it than sell a router to NTRO?

Some harping on "Muslim-dominated areas" ...:

These systems are frequently deployed in Muslim-dominated areas of cities like Delhi, Lucknow and Hyderabad. The systems, mounted inside cars, are sent on “fishing expeditions” ...

“We chose to duplicate them in Hyderabad and Lucknow, which have a large Muslim population .... The Lucknow and Hyderabad facilities came up on M.K. Narayanan’s suggestion,” a senior intelligence official told Outlook.


http://outlookindia.com/article.aspx?265192


Expectedly, there has been a backlash:

Muslim leaders furious over phone tapping in Muslim-dominated cities : http://twocircles.net/2010apr26/muslim_ ... ities.html

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby negi » 26 Apr 2010 20:33

^ And what purpose does it serve to make these details public ? Now that M.K Narayanan is no longer the NSA and P.C Chidambaram being cornered by loonies what kind of national interest does it serve to make such reports public ?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Rupesh » 26 Apr 2010 23:56

link

Read it if you are in a mood to Puke..

During the Q and A session, Jaswant repeats his soft-spoken conviction: “The real renaissance of Islam would have taken place in undivided India if there had not been a partition.” He does not go into much detail, but here is one lead for our religious scholars/academics to follow and prove or disprove Jaswant’s contention. While such a topic can never lock in a conclusion due to the pluralistic viewpoints Hindus and Muslims hold on this sensitive subject, it does not hurt to open the forum. A Pakistani-American once said to me that Islam in its pure and unadulterated sense will descend on Pakistan one day. “It will come from outside; not from within Pakistan


“You don’t condemn a subcontinent because you are tired,” says Jaswant of the indecent haste in which the British quit India. “Nehru too was in a hurry because he too was tired. Do tired men carve out nations? Jinnah wasn’t impatient even though he knew his time on earth was ending. United India was broken hastily… great events are often accompanied by small events that leave behind issues that the coming generations have to pay for.”

We sit in pin drop silence listening to his powerful thesis delivered in an authoritatively mellifluous tone loud enough to thunder across the hall of over 1,000 initiated. He tells us how the young Nehru, “born with a silver spoon” was groomed by his father to enter politics, while Jinnah was a self-made man, who until he became a successful lawyer, would walk to his place of work and live in a shanty hotel in Bombay. Jinnah would say: “There’s a place at the top always; but you have to climb the stairs. There’s no lift”!

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby A_Gupta » 27 Apr 2010 01:11

But Prime Minister Singh told me that an important part had also been played by the diaspora. He told me that, when he was spearheading the reforms as the Finance Minister, Prime Minister Narasimha Rao had lent his full support largely because many members of his own family who were abroad had told him that India’s policies made no sense and that they had diminished our standing in the world. Coming from his own family’s immediate experience abroad, the message carried great salience and cemented the resolve of the Prime Minister to pull India out of the rut into which it had fallen.


Jagdish Bhagwati.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby putnanja » 27 Apr 2010 02:49

DIFFICULT GAME - India must protect its interests when the US exits Afghanistan by BRIJESH D. JAYAL

...
In all fairness, the US has never pretended to be sensitive to our security concerns if they clashed with its national interests. That is why it was not the least apologetic about denying our agencies access to David Headley, who is the self-confessed mastermind of the 26/11 Mumbai attacks. Although that situation has changed since, it can be asked whether the US would have taken kindly to being denied access to Ajmal Kasab, the lone survivor of the Mumbai attackers. Would India have had the courage to deny it access? Since Headley has named serving Pakistan army officers as responsible for planning and executing the Mumbai carnage, the least India expected was a US censure of Pakistani military and intelligence establishments, if not out of conviction then at least out of form.

Instead, it appears that praise was showered on General Kayani and the Pakistan army for their efforts on the AfPak front and commitments extracted that the Afghan Taliban, Pakistani Taliban and al Qaida — all organizations targeting the US and North Atlantic Treaty Organization forces in Afghanistan — would be tackled. No such assurance was considered necessary for Lashkar-e-Toiba and the Haqqani network
, both of which are considered Pakistani strategic assets to target India. This in spite of their also featuring on the US president’s list of those to be dismantled and defeated. Aware of these double standards and so to appease Indian sentiment, the US promptly announced the conclusion of the nuclear reprocessing agreement with India, hailing it as further consolidation of a strategic partnership.
...
...
It is not this writer’s intention to join political issues or defend the person of Narendra Modi who, as an elected representative from Gujarat and holding the constitutional post of chief minister, must abide by the law of the land and face the consequences. But surely, like every citizen, he must be presumed innocent until proven guilty and surely a constitutional authority needs more respect than to be subject to sustained media trial?

The issue that concerns one is the inability to separate the personality of an individual holding a constitutional post from the dignity and sanctity of the post itself and, by extension, the equation of the person rather than the position with the State. Some years ago, Modi, as chief minister of Gujarat, in which constitutional post he would carry a red Indian diplomatic passport, was denied a visa by the US authorities. Denial of a visa to an Indian diplomatic passport holder was a rebuff to the Indian State.
The Central government should have strongly reacted to this slight to an Indian diplomatic passport holder. That it failed to do so and in fact relished Modi’s discomfiture speaks poorly of our national pride. Perhaps a counter-question would make the point. Would the US have tolerated such a slight at Indian hands to one of its diplomatic passport holders?
...
...
This brings us to the media, which of late have been in the news in the context of paid media reporting prior to the last elections with some electronic media channels reportedly offering paid news packages to political parties. A cynic could well conclude that the hype in the media over the Modi-Bachchan issue was to camouflage the far more serious ramifications for our future security that were unfolding in Washington under the patronage of our avowed strategic partner, the US. In this age of information warfare and commercialization, one wonders if such cynicism amounts to letting imagination run wild.

The author is a retired air marshal of the Indian Air Force


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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Hari Seldon » 27 Apr 2010 08:02

Sandhya jain in Pioneer:Towers of Ilium.

Worthwhile read, IMHO.

Excerpts:
Yet Tharoorgate affords an opportunity to revisit the dangers posed by India’s dangerous open-door policy towards foreign nationals; the ill-heeded warning by Samajwadi Party leader Mulayam Singh Yadav against hasty introduction of the women’s reservation Bill; and the non-transparency of people in public life.


Neither Ms Pushkar nor Mr Tharoor seem likely candidates for conceiving and executing such a grand strategy to put together one of the costliest IPL franchises ($ 333.33 million), that too, in a State like Kerala where sporting facilities are poor and the known sponsors are mainly non-Malayalis!
...
Hence, given the Income Tax Department’s probe into alleged benami transactions funding IPL across the spectrum, it seems reasonable to suppose they have much to hide.
... it strains credulity to believe that unknown businessmen or a suspended Maharashtra transport official could invest over Rs 1,000 crore and outbid a consortium led by the Ahmedabad-based Adani Group. More tasteless was the attempt to implicate Gujarat’s Chief Minister Narendra Modi.


What baffled observers, however, was his mesmeric hold on 10 Janpath and 7 Race Course Road, which made both authorities visibly reluctant to hasten his exit. Whispers circulated that Mr Tharoor obliged the ruling party by fiddling names listed in the Volcker Report on beneficiaries of Saddam Hussain’s oil-for-food programme mandated by the UN. Mr D Raja of the CPI wondered why the Congress leadership chose to project him as India’s candidate for the UN Secretary-General’s post, for which he was too junior, being merely communications chief at the UN and not in any policy-making department.


Bottomline in bold:
Meanwhile, Ms Pushkar’s Canadian citizenship and Dubai residence points to a disturbing internationalisation (read dilution) of Indian identity. Unless we put in place stringent laws to inhibit politicians, civil servants and officers of the armed forces from undue intimacy with foreign nationals, we will seriously prejudice our national security, and political and economic interests. The current scandal concerning a naval officer involved in the Gorshkov submarine negotiations with Russia, and Tharoor-gate, are just instances of the perils that face a society that is excessively open to adventurers at its top echelons.

It is pertinent that at the height of the controversy, in a last ditch effort to salvage the reputation and position of her fiancé, Ms Pushkar suddenly decided to relinquish her Rs 70-crore equity in the franchise. This happened immediately after Dubai-based Ashish Mehta surfaced as her lawyer, raising eyebrows amongst the cognoscenti as he happens to be attorney to Dubai’s ruler Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum. By an interesting coincidence, when Mr Lalit Modi recently visited Dubai for an ICC meeting, he accepted the hospitality of Sheikh Maktoum rather than stay in a hotel with other delegates.


Finally, the Sunanda Pushkar episode is a grim warning of the kind of women most likely to appear in Parliament if the women’s reservation Bill becomes law — locally rootless, but with national and international ‘corporate’ contacts and an ability to ‘fix’ things.

This is precisely what Mr Mulayam Singh Yadav meant when he said women who arrived under the Bill would be the kind who got “whistled at”. He meant they would be ‘friends’ of powerful men, who would clog the system with private agendas. So shallow is media discourse in this country that he was shouted out of court; it is time Indian politics ended the unholy alliance of business and politics.


Wow, Ms Jain has got substance, seems like. Even if I may not agree 400% with her every word. I have to say she is no empty talking head.


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