MRCA News and Discussion

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MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 23 Jan 2010 13:33

Post away here.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 23 Jan 2010 16:28

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... n%20Demand

For those with big enough purses, the F-35 and Typhoon remain potentially complementary, rather than competitive, proponents of the latter argue.

In this force mix, the primary role of the Typhoon, ideally fitted with an active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radar and Meteor rocket/ramjet-powered, active-radar-guided air-to-air missile, would be to provide air superiority, together with an air-to-surface capability. Conversely, the F-35 would provide a comparatively low-observable strike platform, as well as retaining an air-to-air role.

This is the template that is being pursued, broadly, in the U.K., Italy and (possibly) in Spain. It is also one that London is attempting to persuade Tokyo to buy into.
:roll:

The AESA-Meteor mix—assuming the modeled performance is replicated in the real world—provides a potent counter-air capability. Marrying an air-breathing weapon with the extended detection range of AESA radar should provide the ability to engage targets at ranges well in excess of even the U.S. Raytheon AIM-120D.

It is this combination that the Eurofighter partners are looking to exploit in Japan and other key export targets.

One big issue, however, that needs to be resolved quickly is deciding on the design of—and integration plan for—an AESA. The four partners continue to try to agree on a common strategy. The U.K.’s swash-plate approach—allowing an angled antenna to be repositioned to overcome the limitations of a fixed array—is a candidate architecture. The U.K.’s Advanced Radar Targeting System program, test flown on a Tornado GR4A, is believed to have evaluated the swash-plate concept.

London is advocating the swash plate, and is garnering support among partner nations. There are alternatives—some in Germany say a fixed-antenna design offers a quicker development path. Availability irrespective of the design chosen is an issue for India and Japan.
:roll:

Alongside agreeing on an AESA upgrade path for the platform, the partner nations are also aiming during 2010 to sign off on expanding the weapons integrated on the Typhoon. :roll:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Brando » 23 Jan 2010 16:40

^^What do the " :roll: " mean ?? Do you disagree with the statement or do you think it is a false statement ?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby jai » 23 Jan 2010 17:22

Enough is being said about Babu's/politicians making the final choice in this competition on political considerations.

While personally I feel that in today's world, we would not have any political advantage of this purchase - because the sellers are too cunning to allow any, and India is way too naive to extract any - I for one can not think of India having managed anything worthwhile politically that's translated into anything useful for the country so far !

It would be interesting to still know what other cases do we have of politician's / babu's selecting less than optimal equipment for the defence forces recently. It would also be interesting to know about any major political or otherwise gains we have made from any defence purchase so far.

Can the esteemed members of this forum recall anything on the above lines ?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 23 Jan 2010 19:24

the :roll: indicate sadness that the final product still is not apparently ready - a swing role a/c with aesa that can match the F-18/F-16 in A2G, Rafale in A2A.

and the original users themselves are alleged by the article not to be interested in
investing in A2G instead saving $$ for JSF?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 23 Jan 2010 20:34

Let me start a conspiracy theory on page 1 of this renewed thread.

Bangalore's government have actually come up with what I think is a great idea. Instead of allowing walls (of government property) to be painted over by yahoos and covered with free ads and movie posters - the walls are being painted with colorful India/Karnataka themes.

Now on one wall around a DRDO building are paintings of the LCA, Prithvi, Agni I, Arjun and an aircraft that looks like guess what........

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Well - it looks like this:
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kelik

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 23 Jan 2010 21:41

Posted before?

Eurofighter leading race for India deal- ambassador
...
"We have shortlisted four to five countries, then the trial process and evaluation will follow. Eurofighter is one of them, in which Italy is involved, and it's leading the race," ambassador Arif Shahid Khan told Reuters after a meeting with a senior aid to Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi
...


So at least one plane has been knocked out already.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby negi » 23 Jan 2010 21:59

^ Where Amrika bahadur has F-16 and F-18SH so 6 AC from 5 countries. Ambassador saheb has only increased anxiety amongst contenders (4-5 countries :lol: ) nothing else. :mrgreen:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 23 Jan 2010 23:44

it may be a way of talking.. 4 to 5 countries. one should look at these facts:

Rafale and the see more sexy teens, are his strong enemies for MRCA.

If I am right from reading minds by what people say, he might be meaning that the top two contending countries would be France and USA.

4 to 5 meaning, he is making france being part of EU.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby chiru » 24 Jan 2010 00:45

shiv saar it caught my eye too ,two days ago i was going to cunningham road then the painting wasnt complete i just saw those black outlines of this mysterious aircraft which resembles the typhoon.. is it finished now can you check once again while visiting the golf club and post a pic too 8)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby VijayKumarSinha » 24 Jan 2010 01:23

Dmurphy wrote:Posted before?

Eurofighter leading race for India deal- ambassador
...
"We have shortlisted four to five countries, then the trial process and evaluation will follow. Eurofighter is one of them, in which Italy is involved, and it's leading the race," ambassador Arif Shahid Khan told Reuters after a meeting with a senior aid to Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi
...


So at least one plane has been knocked out already.



There is only 1 way that the ambassdor has access to this information. That is, if something was communicated by the MOD/IAF to the Italian govt. ALL SUCH COMMUNICATION pass through the embassies. And only a few people in the embassy have access to that information. That is, the cypher who decrypts the message and the ambassdor who is supposed to forward that information to the host country. So, I think this might be legit. info. But, I guess, this competition is a marathon not a sprint and we are only at the half way mark.

As far as I am concerned, I am very happy with this news, EF was my number 1 choice and Gripen my second. As long as its not the American eph-shiksteen and eph-yateen and their bloody CISMOA.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby tejas » 24 Jan 2010 02:54

Isn't the Eurofighter ~ $100 million a pop? How the hell do we afford that? Especially as we are supposedly thinking about upping the 126 order up to 200. All that for a product that will undoubtedlybe inferior to the FGFA.

If the Typhoon is chosen why cooperate with Snecma on the Kaveri? The price of victory for the Europeans should be help to allow India critical core engine tech. we now lack and that Snecma doesn't appear to be offering. Grasshopper is confused and needs enlightenment.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 24 Jan 2010 03:57

Singha wrote:the :roll: indicate sadness that the final product still is not apparently ready - a swing role a/c with aesa that can match the F-18/F-16 in A2G, Rafale in A2A.

and the original users themselves are alleged by the article not to be interested in
investing in A2G instead saving $$ for JSF?


those are the points that I've been mentioning for the Typhoon earlier. Its paying a large premium for great flying performance and A2A ability, while the A2G capability is still lacking and except the RAF, no other customer AF is that serious about it as yet..so what on earth will the IAF evaluate when they test fly the Typhoon ? RAF will display its Austere A2G capability but that is really not in the same league as the Rafale, F-18 or F-16. I don't know if the IAF will take promises of future integration of weapons and AESA as being enough to go with. pay the most and get the least A2G capability ? doesn't sound like that great a deal.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 24 Jan 2010 05:52

Perhaps, when it comes to India, the Eurofighter may have to reduce the price in comparison with Rafale, cost-per-specification-unit wise. They can't just offload to enjoy a short RoI and go for bigger profits, if they envision a long term relationship with India.

Being just comparable is not enough for them right now, as they have to show they are as cheap as SH or just around very near to hornet's price.

Fixing a price for Europeans and Oil rich countries, cannot be applicable to us. They should have a different game plan. Of course, these are my assumptions since they did come out boldly in saying, they will be competitive in pricing, and joint ownership offers.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby VijayKumarSinha » 24 Jan 2010 06:17

Marten wrote:
PS: If the good Ambassador leaked a decrypted message, there is little hope for the rest of his career. This is more likely a clear message to all parties that the stakes are higher and they better up their ante. Simple realpolitik.


All communication between the South block and the embassies around the world is encrypted and not just the most private and confidential ones.

If it was a message to remind everyone of the stakes involved I think the MOD/IAF could have chosen a bigger, better and a well known person as their messenger.

After delivering the message to the 'senior aid', Mr. Ambassador probably didnt consider the information as confidential anymore or the messge wasn't marked confidential to begin with or he knew that the info. was not such a big deal to begin with it as it would have been disclosed in a few days either by Italy or by our own govt. so he went ahead and told the media what he talked to the aid about.

What really happens is that a govt. of a foreign country asks a question to India through the embassy - that is the official channel. And the embassy gives it to South Block and gets back the answer from them and gives it to the govt. of that country.
Last edited by VijayKumarSinha on 24 Jan 2010 06:30, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 24 Jan 2010 06:24

nukavarapu wrote: I personally think that design most probably relates to MCA or AMCA ... whatever they call it now. If we exclude the canards and stick in the rear flaps, there won't be much difference in the MCA and the Typhoon design, considering top view. Well, just my thoughts !!! Please keep us posted, what it finally looks like. 8)


... :eek: :eek: And those twin under-fuselage box intakes!!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby suraj p » 24 Jan 2010 07:22

VijayKumarSinha wrote:
Marten wrote:


All communication between the South block and the embassies around the world is encrypted and not just the most private and confidential ones.



Would this be a reason that South bock and PMOs computer systems are hacked recently by Lizard hackers?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby VijayKumarSinha » 24 Jan 2010 07:38

suraj p wrote:
Would this be a reason that South bock and PMOs computer systems are hacked recently by Lizard hackers?


It is my understanding that after hacking the South block computers the only thing of importance that they might find is some asian p**n.

The encryption and decryption system of south block and Indian embassies have nothing to do with using their office computers its all done by hand by using a code book. Enough talking, I will shut up now. :mrgreen:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby MarcH » 24 Jan 2010 15:16

Kartik wrote:those are the points that I've been mentioning for the Typhoon earlier. Its paying a large premium for great flying performance and A2A ability, while the A2G capability is still lacking and except the RAF, no other customer AF is that serious about it as yet..so what on earth will the IAF evaluate when they test fly the Typhoon ? RAF will display its Austere A2G capability but that is really not in the same league as the Rafale, F-18 or F-16. I don't know if the IAF will take promises of future integration of weapons and AESA as being enough to go with. pay the most and get the least A2G capability ? doesn't sound like that great a deal.


EDITED Yes, atm there is only austere a2g package. But it will be retrofitted to all tranche 2 aircraft.
http://www.technobahn.com/article/200912280923
German Airforce will equip its first fighter bomber wing with Eurofighters this year. Weapons that will be integrated for sure are GBU-54 and KEPT-350. Loading tests already done, but no hurry so far to rush them into service since pilots have to complete their conversation training before the can start weapon training.
Last edited by Rahul M on 25 Jan 2010 00:09, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: be civil.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nachiket » 24 Jan 2010 17:03

tejas wrote:Isn't the Eurofighter ~ $100 million a pop? How the hell do we afford that? Especially as we are supposedly thinking about upping the 126 order up to 200. All that for a product that will undoubtedlybe inferior to the FGFA.

If the Typhoon is chosen why cooperate with Snecma on the Kaveri? The price of victory for the Europeans should be help to allow India critical core engine tech. we now lack and that Snecma doesn't appear to be offering. Grasshopper is confused and needs enlightenment.


Prima facie it would appear that we would be foolish to buy something so ridiculously expensive. My guess is that the EF consortium is trying to woo the IAF with joint partnership and a higher level of TOT than anyone else (except the russians ofcourse..but we are already getting their best tech through PAK-FA). They are probably trying to convince the IAF that they would be paying for much more than the aircraft and spares. Perhaps full TOT on the CAESAR radar and commonality with LCA MkII if we choose the EJ-200 engine for it. Just my guess of their probable gameplan. Its another thing whether the IAF buys their arguments or not.

As for the ambassadors comments I think its just something he uttered without much thought in order to satisfy his hosts at the time. Its just too early for even the IAF eval team to say who's leading. Have the weapon trials for the EF even started? So how can anyone say who's leading if the weapon systems haven't even been tested?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby anuraghchauhan » 24 Jan 2010 18:34

May be they want to please his host by making such comment so that they can negotiate some deals in our favour

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Willy » 24 Jan 2010 22:53

There is nothing in the Pak or Chinese armoury that can touch the MKI in the A2A role and neither will there- be in the near future. So would the IAF go for the Typhoon which is more of an A2A superiority aircraft ? IMHO the IAF is looking for a mudmover. That gives planes like the F18 and the Rafale an edge. Ofcourse in the end its all going to come down to price, level of tech transfer and not to forget politics. :roll:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Samay » 24 Jan 2010 23:58

Willy wrote:There is nothing in the Pak or Chinese armoury that can touch the MKI in the A2A role and neither will there- be in the near future. So would the IAF go for the Typhoon which is more of an A2A superiority aircraft ? IMHO the IAF is looking for a mudmover. That gives planes like the F18 and the Rafale an edge. Ofcourse in the end its all going to come down to price, level of tech transfer and not to forget politics. :roll:

Manufacturing components in India will not only lower EF's total cost per plane but will also open new ways for EADS to export EF with lower price ,worldwide. Although it seems very far , but it is actually possible for any winner ,be it rafale or EF. This will not be possible for LM and Boeing to work upon,. Here Offset means many ways to invest , that includes local component manufacturing unit,probably the best way to invest .
In case of assigning roles, EF would probably exchange its role with SU30 for air filtration .

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 25 Jan 2010 00:45

Samay,

Do we know what EF is offering as far as "ToT"? The last time I checked it was nothing to boast about. In fact IIRC it was nothing WRT the EF itself.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 25 Jan 2010 01:03

By becoming a partner the cost of local production would be left to us, based on what we want to do from scratch and what sub components to import. Except for the first 18 EF2Ks, the rest would be much cheaper if we can get it done everything locally here.

It could also bring costs down to shift manufacturing base to India.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 25 Jan 2010 03:35

I think the EF "partnership" does not really involve "ToT". I did a very cursive check, no words like "Transfer" in any place I could find. Only:

The requirements of the Request for Proposal (RFP) concerning transfer of technology, license production and 50 percent offset are challenging, however, Gerwert pointed out: "We are ready to meet these challenges and we will satisfy the expectations of our customer. Our team is working extremely hard in order to meet these requirements."


from: http://www.india-defence.com/reports/3822

And, check: http://www.eurofighter.com/news/2009021 ... oIndia.asp

I seem to recall that during the last trip to ND by Bernhard Gerwert he clearly mentioned that there is no ToT - I cannot find that article right now. EF is a diff animal. Do not expect to see any EF components made in india .... may happen, but I do not see it happening.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 25 Jan 2010 03:49

Samay wrote:Manufacturing components in India will not only lower EF's total cost per plane but will also open new ways for EADS to export EF with lower price ,worldwide. Although it seems very far , but it is actually possible for any winner ,be it rafale or EF. This will not be possible for LM and Boeing to work upon,. Here Offset means many ways to invest , that includes local component manufacturing unit,probably the best way to invest .
In case of assigning roles, EF would probably exchange its role with SU30 for air filtration .


Even if the Typhoon does win and HAL and other Indian enterprises start manufacturing parts, it won't necessarily mean that the Typhoon itself will become that much cheaper for export. Remember that there are 4 countries that also manufacture parts for the Typhoon and they will not like it if their work share is reduced. the biggest single constraint in the development path for the Typhoon has been the fact that since its a consortium, there are very lengthy negotiations that go on before any capability is developed, or any decision is made, because its always a question of who pays for what, who wants what, what timelines does each customer want, etc..

This has been the case for a long time. UK has 37% of the programme, Germany 30%, Italy 19.5 and Spain 13%. Who reduces their share for India to get a share ? By how much ? And which nation is a possible large size Typhoon customer without wanting its own assembly line as well? These are very complex negotiations and not easy to get anyone to agree to cuts because it means lost jobs. I'm not saying it won't happen in the future if India does become a partner nation, but its not the least bit easy to get it happening and even then, the benefits to India won't be particularly great as compared to say if you have to deal with just one OEM and its national govt.

There is weapons integration planned for the future, but as yet no dates are known. Meteor, Brimstone, Paveway IV PGM, Storm Shadow are planned for the RAF, but apart from the Paveway IV, others are still out there.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 25 Jan 2010 04:20

A more detailed look at the technical characteristics of the F-16 Block 60 and hence, the F-16IN variant.

- 3 inter-leaved modes for the AN/APG-80 Agile Beam Radar (AGR)- terrain following, air to air and air to ground
- in A2G mode, APG-80 generates high resolution synthetic aperture radar (SAR) imagery and photos
- The Block 60 has Northrop Grumman's AN/ASQ-32 Integrated FLIR and Targeting System (IFTS). Developed specifically for the Block 60, it comprises processors located inside the aircraft, a navigation FLIR turret on the nose and a targeting pod mounted on the side of the air inlet. The navigation FLIR and targeting pod share processors and avionics carried in the forward equipment bay.
- the IFTS provides day and night precision strike capability with;
- High quality mid-wave IR imagery
- Night and adverse weather condition pilotage
- Long range target acquisition, recognition and track capabilities
- Self-contained laser ranging and designation (no need for separate LDP)
- Automatic hand-off to an IR AGM-65 maverick missile
- Automatic electronic bore sight with the aircraft
- Targeting of air and ground targets

- Internal EW suite called "Falcon Edge", which is a passive and active system by NG. F-16F has a dorsal spine to accomodate the EW suite.
- Fully functional rear seat
- Because of the amount of data and speed required by the avionics system, LM had to equip the aircraft wth a fiber optic avionics architecture and a higher bandwidth to that of other F-16 models and unique to the Block 60. The fiber optic architecture supports a hi-res digital sensor video with solid-state digital video recording capability.
- New core processors utilising COTS components have been used in the Block 60 to support the new colour cockpit displays, FLIR, radar and EW systems
- The new advanced mission computer provides a 40-fold increase in processing speed and memory.
- LM designed a new Digital Flight Control System for the Block 60, which is supplied with raw flight data by 3 multi-function air data probes instead of the usual nose pitot tube and a new air data system. Air data probes located on left, bottom left and right sides of the nose
- FCS has a new advanced auto-pilot with a variety of modes, which is integrated with the auto-throttle, enabling the speed to be adjusted automatically to maintain air speed as the aircraft climbs, descends or maneuvers. When the auto-pilot is engaged, the FCS flies the aircraft with the pilot being allowed to concentrate on other things such as looking at threats, reviewing data or to re-plan an attack with real-time changes
- New engine, the GE F110-GE-132 with 144.56kN thrust. It features
- a lighter composite fan duct
- a new radial augmentor of reduced weight and complexity
- a reduced drag nozzle
- the additional thrust is necessary to maintain the 9G performance of the Block 60 to compensate for the additional weight of the avionics systems installed (parallels with the Tejas considering it'll get internal EW suite and other internal avionics)
- The Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFTs) can be installed and removed in 1 hour by a fully trained ground crew and provide a mission radius of 1,025 miles which is a 40% increase over the non-CFT equipped Block 60's mission radius.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 25 Jan 2010 07:48

For India’s single-largest defence deal, SAAB offers ‘independent choice’- Raghvendra Rao

...
In race with the US's Boeing and Lockheed Martin, the French d'Assault, European consortium EADS and the Russian MiG for what is touted as India's single-largest defence deal ever, SAAB is positioning its Gripen NG (Next Generation) aircraft as an "independent choice" that will offer the IAF a product suited for its needs with enough room for customisation.
...
...

"Swedish support provides an 'independent image' given our non-aligned past," SAAB's Deputy Director Jonas Harma says. "What we bring to the table is the freedom of choice. We believe that we have the product. We are not telling the customers what weapons they need to take with the aircraft," says Eddy de la Motte, SAAB's Director India.


The Gripen NG, which will be ready by the end of 2010, is billed as a multi-role combat aircraft that can perform an array of air-to-air and air-to-surface operations, ensuring flight safety and low operating costs at the same time. It is currently under a variety of evaluations and trials at Malmen Air Base in Linkoping.


The Phase I and Phase III trials for the Gripen IN have already been conducted in Sweden with two IAF pilots having flown the Gripen planes in Sweden. The critical Phase II Flight Evaluation Tests, that will involve flying in extreme weather conditions in India, will begin sometime mid-March and continue for a fortnight.
...
...
With a length of 14.1 metres and a wingspan of 8.6 metres, the Gripen IN, the customised Indian version of the Gripen NG, will boast of a thrust of 10 tonnes and a carrying capacity of 6.5 tonnes of payload and 7 tonnes of fuel. With a super-cruise capability (the ability to fly supersonic without using the afterburner, thus enabling fuel savings and range enhancement) of more than 1.2 Mach, the Gripen IN will also offer manoeuvrability up to 9 G.

Having a maximum flying range of more than 4,000 km, the Gripen IN is being billed as a fighter plane that will require less than 500 metres of landing space, less than an hour for its engine replacement and less than 10 minutes of turnaround time. Most importantly, its cost per flight hour has been estimated to be less than $3,000, thus making it a very cost-effective proposition.


Adding to the plane's capabilities will be second-generation Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, the Integrated Electronic Warfare System, the Missile Approach Warner, data links and latest generation weapons from all over the world.


(The writer visited Sweden as part of a media group hosted by SAAB)
...

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 25 Jan 2010 07:52

Coming back to the topic of build quality , I think Kartik has mentioned that M2K build quality was really good and top notch.

I saw a M2K which was the late new one ordered and besides it was a Mig-29 , the build quality of M2K was simply superb something which did not go unnoticed , specially when there was a Mig-29 to compare whose build quality was just ok.

Did they get better with build quality of IN Mig-29K ? Is it better or same as old Mig-29 ?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 25 Jan 2010 11:52

Boeing has the edge? Proposes collaboration in the MCA program India is proposing to undertake later this decade.

The development of indigenous fighters is also under way in India, Japan and South Korea, with various degrees of success, and some could involve foreign partners. These programmes reflect a desire to acquire the technology to develop new combat aircraft and insecurity about the future availability of imports, say observers.

Boeing points out that the USA has spent billions on research to develop various fighter capabilities, and says that countries that embark on indigenous programmes could succeed if they do the same. There is an easier alternative, it adds.

"In each case, it would make more sense to partner with the US government and US industry that has already made this investment, and has not only developed the technology but has also integrated those disparate capabilities into an effective weapons system. Boeing would certainly be interested in this type of collaboration," says the company. This could happen in India.

The Indian air force is due to take delivery of the first batch of the long-delayed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) later in 2010 - although, going by its past record, that event could face a further postponement.The pain that the air force went through with the LCA, however, means that foreign collaboration is a possibility for the proposed Medium Combat Aircraft, on which the country's Aeronautical Development Agency could begin work on it in the middle of this decade. The twin-engined aircraft will incorporate stealth features, have air-to-ground and air-to-air capabilities and be able to perform suppression of enemy air defence, precision strike and close combat missions, says the ADA. The 20t aircraft will also have a low radar cross-section, "serpentine-shaped" air intakes, internal weapons bays and advanced radomes to increase its stealth features. All of these technologies are already available in the USA, observers point out


Check it out.. just a nutshell progress on fighter competitions across Asia-pacific region!

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... ue-to.html
Last edited by shukla on 25 Jan 2010 17:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nrshah » 25 Jan 2010 12:20

shukla wrote:Boeing has the edge? Proposes collaboration in the MRCA program India is proposing to undertake later this decade.


You mean MCA/AMCA/NGFA...

Besides, will the technologies referred to in the article, available to us?

They are not ready to provide TOT on MRCA (4.5Gen), supplying DUD radar, no source codes, mandatory signing of all intrusive and restrictive treaties like EUMA,logistics, communications and all, not to mention the constant 24*7 fear of sanction at any moment on the whims and fancies of the president of US...

If history is a crystal ball used to gaze in future, look at LCA...

FBW codes history
Engine supply history
Boeing consultancy history
LM consultancy - US congress sanction yet to be recd

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby johnny_m » 25 Jan 2010 15:18

Kartik,

- Internal EW suite called "Falcon Edge", which is a passive and active system by NG. F-16F has a dorsal spine to accomodate the EW suite.


The F 16IN EW suite is different. Its Raytheon ACES, the same which is supplied to Moroccan F 16 Block 50/52+.

While it do not need a dedicated LDP, the UAE block 60s often carry the SniperXR. Which is also being offered to India. According to AFM this is the best pod in business. 8)

Austin,

Looking at the Pictures of the IN MiG 29Ks and comparing them to Normal MiG 29s including the converted MIG 35 it is clear that the build quality has improved significantly. But it is not in the same league as the new Su 35 BM or any western fighters.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Samay » 25 Jan 2010 19:34

NRao wrote:Samay,

Do we know what EF is offering as far as "ToT"? The last time I checked it was nothing to boast about. In fact IIRC it was nothing WRT the EF itself.

If it offers nothing then, it wont extract anything from this .
I guess If they dont share caesar technology ,or other avionics systems, ,they can't win the competition besides americans.

About manufacturing inside India, given the cheap labour and existing expertise, it will be easier to decrease the overall costs.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 25 Jan 2010 21:14

Any comparison done between Gipen-NG and F16-IN?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby prabir » 25 Jan 2010 21:46

Manufacturing in India should be done but not 100% under HAL.

We can encourage tie up with HAL and TATA to start manufacturing and gradually move it over to Tata.

We have to build private sector with its own in-built accountability in collaboration with Tata, Mahindra etc.

This will help improve accountability in HAL and DRDO.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 25 Jan 2010 21:51

private sectors can't be an assembly house from the word go and bang! it requires a lot of investment and expertise.

it has to be slow progress, LRU /sub system wise. HAL assemblies still has to be the sole place for India to do the integration and testing of crafts.

otoh, HAL could sub-contract to private for management, controls, etc. it is going to be a painful slow growth for private defence sector especially in mil aviation.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 25 Jan 2010 23:56

johnny_m wrote:Kartik,

The F 16IN EW suite is different. Its Raytheon ACES, the same which is supplied to Moroccan F 16 Block 50/52+.

While it do not need a dedicated LDP, the UAE block 60s often carry the SniperXR. Which is also being offered to India. According to AFM this is the best pod in business. 8)

Austin,

Looking at the Pictures of the IN MiG 29Ks and comparing them to Normal MiG 29s including the converted MIG 35 it is clear that the build quality has improved significantly. But it is not in the same league as the new Su 35 BM or any western fighters.


Thanks. I’d read about that somewhere but totally forgot it. What would be interesting to know is which is a superior system, Northrop Grumman’s Falcon Edge or Raytheon’s ACES? BTW, regarding the Sniper, hasn’t this pod been ordered by the PAF as well?

Regarding the MiG-29K, they are new-builds (first new-build MiG-29s in a long time) and its clear that MiG has used better manufacturing techniques on these fighters, which reflect more contemporary manufacturing as Russia is more exposed to western manufacturing processes and machines. Previous MiG-29SMTs sold to Yemen and Algeria were basically from a large batch of stored MiG-29s built during the Soviet era. The difference between the MiG-29K and the MiG-35 demonstrator (and the MiG-29OVT) is because those were not new-build aircraft. They were simply converted and modified MiG-29Ms and their airframes dated back several years.

On a different note, I find myself vacillating between whether or not the US fighters are a good option or not, when I consider the technical and political aspects separately. I’m sure this is what plenty of other BRFites are experiencing as well going by how unpopular the US is on BRF.

The technical aspects make me think that the US fighters are more mature than the competition and capability wise quite good considering the fact that they’re likely to be cheaper than the newer generation European fighters except the Gripen IN. Add to that the fact that the variety of weapons they carry is simply unbeatable, and they can be ordered in large numbers due to their being affordable with large production runs driving down unit prices compared to European weapons and platforms. Plus the huge US military complex will keep churning out upgrades for exported F-16s and domestic USN F-18s, and that will keep them viable for the coming 3 decades easily, even if their airframes show signs of approaching a point where they may need some major tweaking.

Then I read about US giving $3 billion in military aid packages to Pakistan every year and it really drives me mad. I must say that in some ways I’d rather that we pay more to the Europeans in the knowledge that at least our money won’t in some weird round-about way end up financing the armament of the lunatic nation to our west. At least they don’t give freebies to the TSP. Mr. Gates talks about how the US might as well arm Pakistan and India since if not them, some other country “with lesser scruples” will, but that is of no concern to us (the scruples part I mean). At least purchasing top notch arms from EU will bleed the TSP state of money. Paying good money from our coffers to get US arms that support US jobs, while the US gives free and subsidized equipment to Pakistan, fully knowing that 70-80% of these will eventually end up being used on its eastern front with India seems illogical then. I guess the Congress govt. really doesn’t see it this way given the persistent reports that the SH is in the forefront of the competition.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Samay » 26 Jan 2010 00:02

saik sir you're right,
its a sad story,. When it comes to research for defence purposes DRDO is called. When there will be need for 'mass production' of air crafts, there is no such facility available,so no learning curve,no skilled labour force for design ,innovation and production. We could have learn from our old ally Russia or from our neighbourhood china which has been producing mig derivatives that are somewhat useless in modern warfare but this practice developed the skilled labour force for aircraft production,fruits of which china is reaping now,IMHO strategic decision making.
prabir,
I have already said that offsets are an excuse for not developing capabilities, but that will good for private sector,. Things which psu's like drdo havent done will be done by private sector and there is no other alternative left , this is what happens when things are left on babudom.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby johnny_m » 26 Jan 2010 00:58

Kartik,

Thanks. I’d read about that somewhere but totally forgot it. What would be interesting to know is which is a superior system, Northrop Grumman’s Falcon Edge or Raytheon’s ACES? BTW, regarding the Sniper, hasn’t this pod been ordered by the PAF as well?


Actually I have tried to find this out myself for quite some time ! Posted on the F 16.net forum asking opinion but did not get many replies as stuff regarding EW are not much in the public domain, they even closed the thread fearing some users in the know may accidentally disclose.
I do not think there is much difference however because when the block 60 deal was being done, the UAE took the most time to finalize its ew suite (all options must have been good).

As for your assessment on U.S arms sales to Pakistan I doubt it really matters in the end. The IAF not buying U.S equipments is hardly going to stop the PAF from fielding them. But the F 16s are likely to be the last major Purchase Pakistan is going to make from the U.S, they are clearly moving on in the Chinese direction.


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