MRCA News and Discussion

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kmkraoind
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby kmkraoind » 27 Jan 2010 11:13

Its better to eat what is palatable and digestible. I cannot understand what TOT has HAL/DRDO acquired from Russia/USSR. Assume that a 1990s catastrophe happens in Russia, will we able to maintain our SU-30 MKI and Mig-29 fleets for a lengthy period of time, then I do not understand what we have learned from Russian TOT.

I do not understand why most of seniors are against US teens, while GOI is procuring force multipliers like P8I, WLRs and artillery guns.

I hope F-18 is selected, and I will be glad within 50% offsets, we will able to cover complete engine manufacturing, so that future LCA MK2, MCA and MRCA will have EPE engine and manufacturing facilities for quality airframes.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby VijayKumarSinha » 27 Jan 2010 11:46

kmkraoind wrote:I do not understand why most of seniors are against US teens, while GOI is procuring force multipliers like P8I, WLRs and artillery guns.


Well, it may be because you have not been reading what most knowledgeable people have been writing here.

For example, Kartik's last post addresses your EPE fascination.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby bhavik » 27 Jan 2010 12:37

VijayKumarSinha wrote:
kmkraoind wrote:I do not understand why most of seniors are against US teens, while GOI is procuring force multipliers like P8I, WLRs and artillery guns.


Well, it may be because you have not been reading what most knowledgeable people have been writing here.

For example, Kartik's last post addresses your EPE fascination.


F-18 or not .. I do not see the logic in the quote above or in kartik' previous post refuting the point made by kmkraoind.
No matter how big a fan of Su30 MKI I am ... I am still not able to understand what aircraft manufacturing / design have we really learned from our tested friend russia?
Single crystal? Engine manufacture or Design? Aircraft Design? What we are doing is just manufacture licensed components at fee which makes local MKI costlier than the imported ones. In fact even in FGFA what we would learn really (25%?) when the prototype shall be flying out there soon in ruski land. Do not forget when ruskis had economic crisis they sold Su30 not only to us but to chinese and whoever else in asia .... Also remember chinese have got better ToT on Su30 they manufacture the engine as WS30 and all new jets (JF17 etc) have same engine ... (i think the chinese paid ruskis to keep mum about it - since no one is complaining today. also equally chinese reverse engineering skills must be in play but still no ones fighting in courts claiming IP violation)

And if above judgement is utterly false, then IAF and GOI must be "fools "to buy P8I, C130, C17, refuellers, howtizers etc..
Can any one tell me apart from political reasons - why are US teens in MRCA race in first place? Is IAF an fool to spend time evaluating F18 which they may reject outright?
Also those claim about price 75-100mil ..
has anyone seen the price offered to india ???
if they have i suggest they keep mum abt it .. keep it a secret till winner is selected :wink: !!.

what makes people think price for every customer is same :?: ?
Last edited by bhavik on 27 Jan 2010 13:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 27 Jan 2010 12:54

jaladipc wrote:
I just hope that people are not day dreaming.
a joint indo-US collaboration on MCA???????? :rotfl:
for gods sake ,lets roll back to the few months with no pain when LM was asked for consultancy in flighting testing for Tejas :mrgreen:
If US DOD is looking at providing a toned down version of AESA for SH in MRCA,how can one expect the might highness collaborate directly on a 5th gen fighter??? It could be either me drinking tooooooooo much vodka or people in Boeing smoking weed :shock:
Mr Sid says even fantasy has a limit :P


Daydreaming? Was that what GOI/ADA/DRDO/MOD were doing when they went back to the US for the GE 404s after a resounding zhapad in the form of sanctions? Was that why they went ahead with an order of 40 IN20s? Was that why they asked LM for assistance? Is that why the IN went with P8s for its future MMAs?

The US has certain core competencies that those in power seem to consider well worth some risk. A Boeing consultancy on the MCA would hardly be surprising (at the minimum it would sweeten the MRCA deal a bit). At least not with the current penchant shown by the services, babus and netas alike for American toys.

As most here would know, the shornet is hardly my favourite, but if it come down to a choice between the shornet and the solah (which is quite possible, esp. if noises coming out of france might have a grain of truth), I'd rather have the bug.

CM
Last edited by Cain Marko on 27 Jan 2010 13:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 27 Jan 2010 12:56

Brando wrote:
That is absurd and most likely marketing rhetoric.

The SH is by no means a simple aircraft. While I haven't flown the aircraft personally, I have seen a very accurate simulation and it is a very technical machine. The USN spends a lot of flight hours in getting its pilots proficient enough to fly the SH with confidence.


Could very well be the case, aggressive marketing and political manouvering is hardly unknown in such deals.

CM

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby bhavik » 27 Jan 2010 13:31

Refer my previous post
CM what do say abt it?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 27 Jan 2010 13:37

I think that we 're getting a little confused heer.It isn't what Russia or the US or Europe " has provided us" with,it is what we really have wanted to happen and how far we have wanted to absorb foreign tech and become more independent in defence production! I quoted earlier the assertion by a retd. IAF officer,commentator at the RD parade,that there has been a deliberate supression of indigenisation by vested interests.If we look at China,it is "state policy" and China finds the funds and methodology to acquire (beg,borrow or steal) the tech that it needs.We have been instead for some illogical reason, preferring to licence produce equipment (it made sound economic sense during the Cold War,Soviet days) from the Soviet bloc,also because the west refused to sell us modern weaponry at that time! One must remember how after training in the UK,Britain refused to sell us subs,the US sold/leased Pak the Ghazi and Russia stepped in to offer us the Foxtrots,missile boats and MIG-21s.These stood us very well and helped us win in '71.So let us not deride Russia for its assistance.

Right now however,after the collapse of the SU,when we have been buying from various countries for almost two decades now,a variety of eqpt.,we are still following the same policy.Even our two most visible defence projects,the LCA and Arjun,have a critical component of foreign tech and eqpt. in them.FUnds really have never been a problem.The past is rife with annual returns of funds lying unused by the MOD.Approval for critical acquisitions takes years,like the Hawk-more than two decades,the Scorpene,and the search still goes on for the LCA's engine .Why did we not pursue with better vigour the LCA? It developed in fits and starts and even after roping in the IAF ,not done earlier,placing orders,finalising all matters required for the MK-2 development on a war footing.This appears suspicious in the haste to finalise the MMRCA deal by April as we have been told! Will the decision on the LCA's engine be taken only after finalisation of the MMRCA?!

The services seem to be aware of the situ ,that babudom is the actual master of the MOD,the real boss of the services and threfore why should they break their heads banging them against the wall of babudom when the politcal msters are so lackadaisical about defence and security? If we are genuine about achieving "70-75% indigenisation" and are achieving only "30%",we should be seeing great haste with defence decision making to achieve this.Apart from rockets and missiles (Agni series,Prithvi,Akash,Shaurya,etc.),which tech few nations are wiling to part with (which is why we have made so much progress on that score!),the rest has been patchy.Therefore the services have no other option but to accept more foreign goods and JVs rather than systems with a higher degree of indigenous content.

One must also add that there is a huge shortfall of scientific resource too for the DRDO to achieve targets.Because of the stepmotherly treatement of defence personnel and the industry,thanks to babudom.Because of this manpower cricic affecting the services and shortfall of officers,the IA is now willing to accept SSLC qualified recruits for SSCs.Until we have a PM and leadership that places the security of the country as the highest priority (not the security of the backsides of the politico-babu class),the defence of the country will languish.As I said before,the country's defence strategy for the future and its acquisition decisions will probably be outsourced to a foreign thinktank just like wars are being outsourcd to Blackwater!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby RameshC » 27 Jan 2010 13:48

Well EDE has been ground tested for years, already in 2006, for GE to develope and test the EPE will take no time and the fact is even if we fund it, we'll get back our royalties when USN super Bugs begin MLU in the next decade. secondly US threat libraries are extensive and are always much larger, giving object codes is pretty good, because to understand the logic and flow of the entire soft ware code itself could take half a decade, understanding and modifying software codes is not as easy as some believe, it takes years to actually understand it, modifying it would take many more.

Exactly what have we learned from our MKI deep licence. Two years back our fleet was grounded because they were short on tyres. Fact is we couldn't even make tyres in our country or are actually retarded enough not to have tyres made in India during phase one itself of the acquisiton/manufacture process. A Russian MRCA deal will hamper private sector involvement. Full-tot allows for local production, great but our learning is hardly anything. We still can't make a simple Kaveri work, our home made MMR isn't ready, we needed Issy help to actually begin work on AESA-MMR. There is a reason why only 60% TOT was mandatory on the rfp and as long as the US meets this demand, they'll have legal reasons to defend their bid, because if they loose, they'll take this to appeal and the court can side with them.

The MOD made a mistake since the begining, they could have simply narrowed their choices by saying full-tot and software codes in the rfp, the US wouldn't have bid. US is a new partner and there will lots of teething problems in any new relationship, matter of fact there is always problem with relationships, i mean the last few years with Russia haven't really been picture perfect either. So the core for any such problems are open communication and understanding of eachother's interests and given time things can work. This doesnt mean once things get rosy our work is done, we have to keep at it. any partnership demands work. P-8I, C-130J, C-17 will all have local suppliers for spares so that IAF can take care of its own maintenance and operations. Lots of made in India parts will also make their way into USN P-8s. This is just the begining.

EPE fascination is understandable, its a new engine ,has the potential to meet the needs of LCA mk-2 and even the MCA. Its a proven engine that can perform in all environments, has amazing FOB survivability and has no record of failure. The current GE 414 G allows the Gripen NG to supercruise and will certainly allow the LCA mk-2 to supercruise with a full load at speeds of well over mach 1.2.

Given all the stalling and slow progress with Kaveri, our own home made engine with 100KN+ thrust is still atleast 8 years away. Till or if that arrives, the GE-EPE can power the MCA. With so many engines, the US will give full-tot, actually i am sure if we take the GE for LCA mk-2 and give the MRCA to SH, the GE will be made entirely in India. Now comes the radar, well i dont buy the dumbed down version story one bit, firstly because its an old story. The story as of now is simple, US govt. will decide how much tot on radar on how the competition turns out. Source codes wont come but Object codes will come for sure. Now the Apg-79's array has MTBF of 15000K hours and 1250 hours MTBF for the system, now do we need tot on the array, isnt tot on the basic system enough?? The radar needs no major maintenance for 10 to 20 years, why need full tot on radar? Besides what difference does it make when we are already working on our own AESA for LCA?? Boeing has clearly said on the FX-2 deal, they will give enough TOT to Brazil in order to maintain and upgrade the aircraft. Our deal will have much more TOT because our deal size is atleast 4 to 5 times bigger.

http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/rt ... 79aesa.pdf

Juts by the size of the engine order i am sure we'll have full tot on the engine, avionics etc Radar is the only hurdle and i am sure IAF will satisfied with what they get. They should be satisfied because hey they helped write down the RFP which doesnt mention anything about full-tot. However we cant blame the RFP, because it reflects how much we can absorb. Besides TOT on everything makes for 0 learning, our own efforts on engines, radars will pay off with understanding and mastery.

Sinha Ji i hope your not saying that the MOD and the decision makers in the IAF are not knowledgable and dont know what they are doing. none of us expressing our views here have any say in this. how to deal with the US is a Govt. issue. As for sanctions in the past, well i would have personally put sanctions on India as well. ** Deleted **

Sanctions are gone, chances are wont happen again because now more than ever India and US are intertwined. Every one here who opposes a US win are very quick to mention Russia and EU nations who are just as worse in such matter, each supplier has problems with India or may be India is the problem. Just because i support a super fries win doesnt mean i oppose a EU win, though i oppose a Russian win. The Griepn will be outperformed by the LCA mk-2, the Rafale is way too expensive and needs a lot of work and weapons intergration because many here dont like US weapons either and EU wins are far more expensive, new weapons integration will delay the process, same goes for the EF, the tranche 3 config is still unclear and i dont think it will be ready by 2014. the French just now placed an order for 60 F-3 Rafales and they wont begin deliveries to France before 2015, wow.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... fales.html

so Rafale and EF can be kicked out for simply being too late and expensive, EF also has global supply chian which means we'll end up with a logistical nightmare. mig is late as well, that leaves the teens, Falcon is ut because our enemy operates it, SH remains and is the best considering its proven and can be ready by 2013 when IAF needs it.
Last edited by SSridhar on 27 Jan 2010 20:33, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Unwanted, irrelevant and troll portion of post removed; user warned

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Jean_M » 27 Jan 2010 16:22

RameshC wrote:contrary to what they say even the Rafale's infamous Spectra EW suite was made in the US, though Dassault may own it, the tot still requires US clearance. lots of US companies and their EU sudsidiaries are a major part of the supply chain for these programs and hence their claims of full-tot are useless till US approves.


Utterly false.

What is this deja vu feeling ?
Oh I know...
viewtopic.php?p=659507#p659507

(answers in the following posts)

Could you please tell us why your point of view hasn't changed ?

As for Rafale's lateness, it's not because the first plane of our next batch will be delivered to our AF in 2015 that all its components are not ready. I've already given sources proving that the first F3+ planes will be the last ones of the current batch. They'll have new radar and engines at least.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby RameshC » 27 Jan 2010 17:09

havent seen any clear proof as to Rafale being completly French. Can The French deliver the first of 18 aircraft by 2013, considering their production rate for this year is 11 aircraft. Boeing makes 40 Super Bugs in a year. I have grown to like Rafale much more but the French behaviour lately isn't very good, the aircraft is very expensive to operate and maintain, needs new weapons integration and EU weapons are very expensive as well. This could lead to further delays. French after sales service isn't impressive either. But since The french are offering "full-tot" and source codes customization, its a decent option incase none of the other western contenders can offer full-tot. But i still prefer the EF T-3+ full spec to the Rafale.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Nirmal » 27 Jan 2010 17:37

Craig Alpert wrote:couldn't help but with all the whining against the US and it arming and favoring PAK regardless of it knowing where it stands, here is a general question to the entire BRF community...(talk about suicide!, here we go)
The US is pursing what's best IN IT'S INTEREST..It has nothing to do with India or Pakistan; it is all defined according to their REGIONAL policy!
Look at the Middle East, the US supplies the BEST weapons to Israel and then turns around and gives AID to GAZA?? Now does this logic make sense?? In the same scenarios if it is offering weapons to India, it will justifiably give aid to Pakistan, (remember they favor not to tilt the balance) and of course there is always talks about countries that are willing to play by the rules of the good ole US OF A getting rewarded... Like Bush Jr. rewarded us with the Nuke deal (remember our Sardar's U-Turn on Iran), baba Obama needs to reward Pak with Harpoons, F-16's and UAV's to continue assisting and keeping the terror forces in and around their neighborhood while keeping the US safe.
India can hate US all it wants’ for arming Pakistan, but at the same time it will involve itself romantically because of the China. The US itself, can give India the 1 finger Salute, but it needs India to stay soft on Pakistan, and its support to contain China's rapid expansion. Technology wise, India has traditionally looked to the Soviets in all but one area, where the Soviets are no longer the masters i.e. their Naval power (minus the AKULA submarines of course) and the sensor fused networks where the US and Israel are the prime Masters. India needs the best of both worlds, hence the best hardware and the software to go along with it.
Remember every country looks out for their own interest, be it the US, India, Pakistan, etc... So is there any real value to say things like "Unkil should not be allowed into our defense market" because it sells weapons to Pakistan???
Money talks, bullshit walks ~ this is something that goes for ANY country, not just the US. India sold aircrafts to Thailand, when UK opposed (why? Indian interest, it's telling the US to go soft on Thailand why?? Indian interest), France sold jets to Paki's, does that mean we are no longer dealing with France(should we cancel the Scorpene?, the Mirage upgrade deal? the LGB's? the HMD's??), Israel was willing to sell the Phalcon to Chinese, until the US intervened and we got on the bus which obviously would not have been the case if the US had allowed the sale to China, we would have gone running to Russia to counter it. Swedes deal with Paki, are we to throw out the Grippen? German sells Subs to Pakistan, are we no longer intersted in training with German Special Forces??? And best of all Ukraine sells Tanks to Pakistan, does that mean that Indian and Ukrainian contracts get terminated (for uranium, Il-76 airframes, IT, etc...)
Look NO ONE likes a country who would sell arms to their Enemy/Rivals, but this is the world that we live in, where everyone looks for their own interest. The only way for India to give all of them a 1 finger salute is by having 100% self reliancey in their products, which clearly is not the case. This is where the great Chanakyaan does what it does best and hence has an open door policy and welcomes all and decides how to best approach the situation.

Look out for the SH to join the IAF inventory regardless of whether you ( :D or :x )

Sir, Thailand??????? surely you mean Maynamar or Burma don't you?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Jean_M » 27 Jan 2010 19:10

RameshC wrote:havent seen any clear proof as to Rafale being completly French.


Well its quite simple: the intellectual property of every key component is ours wether the supplier would be French or the french part of an international firm. Development and production of all components take place in France so we do master our supplying chain.

A simple example: the ejection seat, a Martin Baker MK16F variant.

Martin-Backer started its ejection seats business in 1946. Firs trials were made on a Jet Provost. France got interested in Martin-Backer after WWII and bought a licence.

Société d'Exploitation des Matériels Martin Baker (SEM MB) was created in 1959 as an equally-owned subsidiary of SAFRAN (France) and Martin-Baker Aircraft (UK). For almost 50 years, SEM MB provides the most advanced escape systems for pilots.
Today, SEM MB is the French specialist for ejection seat. We place our know-how at our customers’ disposal, and we offer a complete service.
The company has 4 purposes:
- Manufacturing and sale of ejection seats
- Maintenance
- Development of new products and improvement of existing equipments
- Customer and product support


the rest here: http://www.martin-baker.fr/en/presentation.htm

You'll also see that their plant is in France, near Dassault's plant of Argenteuil.


Can The French deliver the first of 18 aircraft by 2013, considering their production rate for this year is 11 aircraft. Boeing makes 40 Super Bugs in a year.


The Rafale production line of Merignac is said to be calibrated to assemble 30 planes per year max. This leaves more than enough margin. (confirmed here - journalistic source, see point 4: http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.f ... ts/page/2/ )


I have grown to like Rafale much more but the French behaviour lately isn't very good, the aircraft is very expensive to operate and maintain, needs new weapons integration and EU weapons are very expensive as well. This could lead to further delays. French after sales service isn't impressive either. But since The french are offering "full-tot" and source codes customization, its a decent option incase none of the other western contenders can offer full-tot. But i still prefer the EF T-3+ full spec to the Rafale.


You are more than welcome to have your own opinion, I just can't keep myself from reacting when I hear things like "infamous spectra not even french".
By the way, wouldn't EF T-3+ full spec come with limited AtoG weaponry and also require many integrations (R77 and the likes won't come with western planes anyway)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 27 Jan 2010 21:57

As a FYI:

GE :: June, 2009 :: New Orders, Tech Insertions Mark Increased GE Fighter Engine Presence

GE continues developing advanced versions of the F414, including an Enhanced Performance Engine (EPE) that can provide a 20% increase in thrust and an Enhanced Durability Engine (EDE) for extended component life at current thrust levels.

The latest F414-based advanced technology demonstrator engine has completed a test program that utilized a two-stage, all-blisk (integrated blade and disk) fan, an advanced six-stage high-pressure compressor (HPC) and a new high-pressure turbine (HPT) design. The engine ran to 100% of maximum steady-state core speed and successfully completed all program objectives during more than 20 hours of testing.

The new fan design incorporates 3-D aero, forward-swept airfoil technology, which provides higher airflow, improved efficiency and reduced parts count compared with the current F414 fan. The ongoing demonstrator program also included validation testing for high-cycle-fatigue design methods, and foreign object damage-tolerant fan and compressor airfoil designs.

The advanced technology core will complete additional testing in 2010 as part of a fuel savings technology demonstrator engine program that GE is running under contract to the US Navy.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 27 Jan 2010 22:58

BLISK with SC! that should be very very challenging, right.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 27 Jan 2010 23:03

Nirmal wrote:Sir, Thailand??????? surely you mean Maynamar or Burma don't you?

:oops: I stand corrected.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 28 Jan 2010 04:39

RameshC wrote:Even in a dogfight, the SH will have an edge because it simply carries more gun rounds than the competition, the mig, Ef, rafale, Gripen carry between 120 to 150 rounds, not enough while dealing with multiple manveuring targets while the SV and SH carry between 500 to 540 rounds, enough to give furball advantage.


Completely irrelevant point. The Rafale carries a 30mm GIAT 791B cannon, whereas the Typhoon and the Gripen have a 27 mm Mauser cannon. Even the MiG-29 and Su-30MKI carry the Gryazev-Shipunov or “Gasha” Gsh-30 cannon that are known to be deadly accurate in conjunction with the gun aiming system on board. The SH carries a 20 mm M61A1 Vulcan cannon, which is used on other American fighters as well. There is a difference in the design philosophies, that’s all. The Europeans and Russians believe that carrying fewer rounds that have much higher hitting and destructive power than the lighter 20mm round makes more sense. The 30mm and 27mm rounds are designed to cripple or cause heavy damage to a fighter target even if only a couple of High Explosive-Incendiary rounds hit it whereas you need perhaps 6-8 rounds of 20mm cannon HE-I rounds to down a fighter. The 20 mm HE-I projectile has 10.7 grams explosives compared to 48.5 grams for the 30 mm Russian HE-I round. So its not difficult to see that with nearly 4 times the explosives of a 20mm round, the 30mm packs quite a bit more punch.

And the gun aiming system is considered very accurate, giving the pilot a very clear idea about when to use the cannon, so you don’t need to carry several hundreds of rounds. And the 30mm round is also much better suited for strafing ground targets because of its much more destructive power. The Americans believe that a higher rate of fire has a much better chance of hitting a target lest it pass between 2 rounds fired at it at a much lower rate of fire of 30 rounds/sec or thereabouts. That’s why they fit in so many rounds into their fighters.

However, let me relate an incident that I’d read about a while ago that happened in A’tan during the current war. Both F-15Es and F-16Cs were called upon to strafe a Taliban log covered bunker which had been pinning down US Army Rangers who had evacuated from a MH-47 Chinook that was shot down on a mountain top only about 75 yards away from the bunker. All (I think 4 in total) aircraft used up their full load of 20mm ammo with high accuracy on the bunker, but did not succeed in knocking it out, which is roughly 2000 plus rounds used up in total. The bunker was too close to the friendlies for it to be hit with the LGB’s onboard the aircraft and so they finally had to call in a Predator strike. The bunker was eventually taken out by a Predator firing a Hellfire missile after several of the troopers were wounded. The point that the narrator of the story was making was that if these aircraft had been carrying a heavier cannon then the results could have been quite different. 650 rounds of 30mm HE-I would’ve pulverized that bunker.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Guddu » 28 Jan 2010 05:38

jaladipc wrote:
RameshC wrote:.............. Russia is close friend, they treat us like 3rd world nation by giving us 25% work on PAKFA and you want full-tot for a near 4.5 gen aircraft. When Russia doesnt believe we cant absorb all this tech, US hardly has any woking experience with us..............


I still remember what my dad( an Ex-Army officer who participated in the memorable 71 war)said when I was a kid.
Americans everyone including from that richard Nixon to Henry Kissinger called the whole Indians as B@stards and the leader of this very nation as a *******.

I just hope that you got the point ,before me going further to explain you in detail.
JAI HIND.


Very true, but times change. Today we call the pakis all sorts of names...who knows what happens in 2 decades.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Guddu » 28 Jan 2010 06:02

RameshC wrote:havent seen any clear proof as to Rafale being completly French. Can The French deliver the first of 18 aircraft by 2013, considering their production rate for this year is 11 aircraft. Boeing makes 40 Super Bugs in a year. I have grown to like Rafale much more but the French behaviour lately isn't very good, the aircraft is very expensive to operate and maintain, needs new weapons integration and EU weapons are very expensive as well. This could lead to further delays. French after sales service isn't impressive either. But since The french are offering "full-tot" and source codes customization, its a decent option incase none of the other western contenders can offer full-tot. But i still prefer the EF T-3+ full spec to the Rafale.


A deal of this size will and must have political ramifications. India should not spend so much without gaining political capital. The flurry of recent deals with the US, suggests that the GOI is using its buying power to gain clout with the USA. Today's Wall Street Journal, shows the GDP and growth rates of US, China, India, BRICS and some european countries. India is up there with the BRICS and the European countries, China and the US are still far ahead of us. Just based on raw politics, India would be foolish to go with the europeans, unless there is a massive advantage in TOT or price. The ameerkhans are the masters of war and weapons. When was the last time the european peaceniks fought a real war ?. As I read the tea leaves, I would be very surprised if the SH is not selected.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby kmkraoind » 28 Jan 2010 10:34

Kartik wrote:However, let me relate an incident that I’d read about a while ago that happened in A’tan during the current war. Both F-15Es and F-16Cs were called upon to strafe a Taliban log covered bunker which had been pinning down US Army Rangers who had evacuated from a MH-47 Chinook that was shot down on a mountain top only about 75 yards away from the bunker. All (I think 4 in total) aircraft used up their full load of 20mm ammo with high accuracy on the bunker, but did not succeed in knocking it out, which is roughly 2000 plus rounds used up in total. The bunker was too close to the friendlies for it to be hit with the LGB’s onboard the aircraft and so they finally had to call in a Predator strike. The bunker was eventually taken out by a Predator firing a Hellfire missile after several of the troopers were wounded. The point that the narrator of the story was making was that if these aircraft had been carrying a heavier cannon then the results could have been quite different. 650 rounds of 30mm HE-I would’ve pulverized that bunker.


Wondered why did not they called AC-130 gunship, which has 20 mm, 40 mm, and 105 mm cannons.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Bhaskar » 28 Jan 2010 10:44

I am a nooby on this thread so Moderators please forgive me.

The last time i checked i think the field trials are almost done if not done already.

So, if I am not wrong, the winner should announced in a couple of months?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby BajKhedawal » 28 Jan 2010 10:59

Guddu wrote:Today's Wall Street Journal, shows the GDP and growth rates of US, China, India, BRICS and some european countries. India is up there with the BRICS and the European countries, China and the US are still far ahead of us.


India is the I in BRIC and China the C

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 28 Jan 2010 11:15

Hey guys is it true that Pakis are keen to buy the Rafale? and France will sell it to them if India doesn't buy it?? I remember reading articles in the past.. but I thought that like Saab (who denied Mushy Gripens) Dassault denied Rafales... but i came across this recent report but unfortunately only an abstract of the full report... claims that Paris wants to sell Rafales at any cost and put a Paki offer on hold until the Indian results... wonder if its true and what implications it might have in our choice of final winner??

http://www.intelligenceonline.com/Ident ... NoAboPme=1

Post away if anyone has access to website...

Also remember when the French officials were asked if they would stop arms sales to Pak after the Mumbai attacks... essentially evaded the question... so maybe.......

Asked if France would stop sales of weapons to Pakistan in the wake of Mumbai terror attacks blamed on elements within that neighbouring country, he said "France wants Pakistan to act very concretely and fully against terrorism at all the levels of the State". "We say that to Pakistan, we will continue to say it to Pakistan", Bockel added.


http://www.india-defence.com/reports/4218

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Saurabh_M » 28 Jan 2010 11:41

I personally hope they do for Rafale. Their purchase and maintenance will bankrupt their economy.

Personally, I hope we just scrap the MRCA and go in for more Su-30MKI, with spinoffs from PAK-FA added to the new ones.
Su-30MKI plus PAK-FA spinoffs is superior to any option on board for MRCA deal.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby pkudva » 28 Jan 2010 11:57

Saurabh_M wrote:I personally hope they do for Rafale. Their purchase and maintenance will bankrupt their economy.

Personally, I hope we just scrap the MRCA and go in for more Su-30MKI, with spinoffs from PAK-FA added to the new ones.
Su-30MKI plus PAK-FA spinoffs is superior to any option on board for MRCA deal.


actually this idea seems to be true but practically we need this deal to absorb certain new technologies and also an aircraft to replace the ones who have become obselete starting from Mig-21 to Mig-27


Tejas programme is taking lot of time.

Anyone can say su-30 is the best fighter in this world, but it is an expensive jet and moreover it is also being upgraded. so we need a new jet either in the form of fa-18/16,gripen,euro fighter or mig-35

mig-35 is easy to absorb as we know the tech , rest of them will be a bit difficult....

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nachiket » 28 Jan 2010 12:11

Most people here tend to think that the Gripen's chances of winning this are limited because it is too similar to the LCA in its capabilities.

I don't see how that's true. Both the LCA and the current Gripen C/D have 7 hardpoints. The key difference is the Gripen can carry a large external fuel tank on its centerline hardpoint. The LCA's 7th hardpoint under the left air intake can only carry a Laser targetting pod (or maybe an EW pod or AA missile I don't know). So effectively with two underwing drop tanks it has only 4 pylons for missiles/bombs.

Now the Gripen NG that is being offered has two additional hardpoints added (under the two intakes). So that makes a total of 9 hardpoints. The MTOW has been increased appropriately with a 40% increase in internal fuel capacity.

I don't see how the LCA comes anywhere close to the NG's capability?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby narayana » 28 Jan 2010 12:23

nachiket wrote:I don't see how the LCA comes anywhere close to the NG's capability?


LCA will not but LCA MkII will,thats why there is no need spend so much of money for the same class of AC,better go for Typhoon and use the tech we get for LCA MKII.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nachiket » 28 Jan 2010 12:27

narayana wrote:
nachiket wrote:I don't see how the LCA comes anywhere close to the NG's capability?


LCA will not but LCA MkII will,thats why there is no need spend so much of money for the same class of AC,better go for Typhoon and use the tech we get for LCA MKII.


AFAIK number of hardpoints will remain same even on the MkII.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby bart » 28 Jan 2010 12:44

shukla wrote:Hey guys is it true that Pakis are keen to buy the Rafale?


Several beggars also are keen buy the Mercedes-Benz S500 .

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 28 Jan 2010 12:50

bart wrote:
shukla wrote:Hey guys is it true that Pakis are keen to buy the Rafale?


Several beggars also are keen buy the Mercedes-Benz S500 .



Haha... well said!!!

On a serious note, personally I'd be worried knowing that Rafale's stand guard on the other end of the border... I'd rather have them on our side of the border... (and I think the number quoted for the buy was 44.. so not totally unaffordable I guess).

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby ashish raval » 28 Jan 2010 13:33

^^ if this will happen, it will be end of Indo-French defense collaboration. Everything french will then only go for sale in Pakistan. France will not get any future defense contracts. :twisted:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 28 Jan 2010 13:41

ashish raval wrote:^^ if this will happen, it will be end of Indo-French defense collaboration. Everything french will then only go for sale in Pakistan. France will not get any future defense contracts. :twisted:


Knowing how desperate they are to make a Rafale sale.. you never know.......

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 28 Jan 2010 14:20

Interesting to see how Pak will finance a Rafale buy.In any case,It could in the future be a contest between one Rafale at around $100M vs. 2.5 MIG-35s/Gripens at around $40M.No guesses as to who will win!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 28 Jan 2010 14:44

bart wrote:
shukla wrote:Hey guys is it true that Pakis are keen to buy the Rafale?


Several beggars also are keen buy the Mercedes-Benz S500 .


One common feature of discussion on Paki threads, and I'm talking about the washed variety, is that Pakistan armed forces can/should do this and that with out any recourse to reality check. There is so much hot air discussion about systems and their capabilties because one of the Ummah brothers ("our Turkish/Saudi/and every other camel under the sun brothers"-except the ones in Indian Thar of course) has got it or is about to get it and Pakistan automatically qualifies as next user. I remember reading one such discussion on MILGEM Corvette and how the PN was just about to acquire it...and how PN can equip these with this and that and how it was going to kick IN....... phew....

This Rafale story seems similar...I'm sure the PAF fanboys would have already dissected the superlative performace of this plane and how it will signal the end of Rambha....

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Jean_M » 28 Jan 2010 14:57

Correct me if I'm wrong, but given the article it seems Paris is putting as a deal with pakis on hold while waiting for MMRCA's end word. I don't even think Rafale is concerned, It's about their J7 modernisation with MICA, RC400 and avionics. This story has already been on for a long time.
So this has nothing to do with being "desperate to sell", but on the contrary it has everything to do with providing our customers a clear position towards their potential threats: to me there's little doubt that the paki deal will be cancelled if Indians buy us Rafale for MMRCA.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Saurabh_M » 28 Jan 2010 15:14

pkudva wrote:actually this idea seems to be true but practically we need this deal to absorb certain new technologies and also an aircraft to replace the ones who have become obselete starting from Mig-21 to Mig-27

Tejas programme is taking lot of time.

Anyone can say su-30 is the best fighter in this world, but it is an expensive jet and moreover it is also being upgraded. so we need a new jet either in the form of fa-18/16,gripen,euro fighter or mig-35

mig-35 is easy to absorb as we know the tech , rest of them will be a bit difficult....


(1) In Su-30MKI we already have a jet which is equal (maybe even better) than F/A-18, Typhoon, Mig-35 and Rafale.
(2) We have invested in facilities for producing and maintaining Su-30MKI
(3) We will have access to technology spin-offs of PAF-FA and there will be many, so that will take care of absorbing technologies. Su-30MKI will be most compatible to absorb the spin-offs.
(4) It doesn't make sense to build and maintain a completely new production line, when you have an existing line of a proven fighter
(5) We won't go for Gripen, its developed by and meant for small countries
(6) Mig-35 is the last improvement of the Mig-29 airframe, which is almost 1/2 a generation older than the Su-27 airframe
(7) Rafales and Typhoons are more expensive to procure and maintain compared to the Sukhois
(8) We can expect more collaboration with Russians going by success of Su-30MKI, Brahmos and current pace of PAK-FA. I would rather that we acquire/develop platforms more compatible to them

IMHO, its makes a lot more sense to go for more Su-30MKI. They will arrive at the same time MRCA would arrive, and they would be correctly positioned to absorb developments in PAF-FA

Sadly this won't happen :(

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 28 Jan 2010 18:30

Mig-35 will win? Russia optimistic..

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 509894.cms

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 28 Jan 2010 20:10

I dont thing we are going to have more Su 30 Mki's instead of the proposed new craft. IAF is telling us they need some different class of AC. So they will continue with the present process. More over there is maal in the new deals. :wink:

But we can have Su 35 and make a Mki from that. Most of the arguments for more 30's like are also applicable to 35.

Can any Guru's enlighten us how Su 35 compares with present AC's under our considaration.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 28 Jan 2010 20:38

shukla wrote:Mig-35 will win? Russia optimistic..

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 509894.cms


They are hoping to win much like others in the race.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 28 Jan 2010 21:05

high hopes.. they just won the 29k for a $ billion or so. Russians want everything, and don't want to lose this order to their super power enemy.

they also just took pak-fa for another dev cost of $10b, and it comes @ $100m per puppy. sheesh.. greedy. :)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby johnny_m » 28 Jan 2010 22:34

For all its deficiencies and the all eggs in one basket issue I will not rule out the MIG winning it because its a relatively easy and straightforward decision for the Mod guys to make. It will probably be L1 and buying Russian won't upset the commies or the BJP or even anti American sections of the media.


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