MRCA News and Discussion

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 06 Mar 2010 00:08

Mig-35 is probably ruled out because we already have the SU-30MKI and the IAF has always gone in for a mix of eastern and western aircraft.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Mar 2010 00:09

Pay back to the Russians is the FGFA.

I do not think the Russians - even though they have said it - will ever operate the 35. That by itself should keep IAF away from the 35. And, as discussed earlier, 35 will not bring the numbers in time.

I do not think US-Pak will matter.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 06 Mar 2010 00:11

Shankar wrote:us by supplying the f-16s to pakistan had cut its won tail - no way airforce is going to buy some thing from the same country which is so blatantly pakistan centric in its policy

The IAF is already buying more than a few things from the US. (C130, C-17)

lilaspr · Post by **lilaspr** » 06 Mar 2010 00:15

SaiK wrote:
* Dassault Rafale
* Eurofighter Typhoon
* Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper
* Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet
* Saab Gripen NG
* Mikoyan MiG-35
Sounds like an order of preference for CEO World.
http://ceoworld.biz/ceo/2010/03/04/indi ... o-will-win
The air force requirement for the MMRCA is based on a maximum all-up weight of 14,000-30,000 kg. (31,000-66,000 lb.). India plans to procure 18aircraft in flyaway condition and produce 106 locally under license through technology transfer. Delivery starts within 36 months of contract signing and will be completed 48 months later.

Also, read :-
Considerations: Strategic considerations may influence government’s final decision.

CEOWORLD Magazine http://ceoworld.biz/ceo/2010/03/04/indi ... o-will-win is an European Magazine, i have seen their banner promoting Rafale and Typhoon at various places. But anyway if France promises not to sale Rafale to Pakistan this is a nice bird if we can give some Israel touch it will be the best in all of them. Typhoon is way more expensive.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 06 Mar 2010 00:17

Rahul M wrote:george, weight was the only reason. it would have been difficult for MOD/IAF to justify to the parliament why the f-15 was in running when we already have the MKI. not that the hornet is enormously lighter but it still is under 30t.

The empty SH weighs more than the empty F-15.

lilaspr · Post by **lilaspr** » 06 Mar 2010 00:37

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Rahul M wrote:george, weight was the only reason. it would have been difficult for MOD/IAF to justify to the parliament why the f-15 was in running when we already have the MKI. not that the hornet is enormously lighter but it still is under 30t.

The empty SH weighs more than the empty F-15.

The F-16 is superior to most others at low altitude. As soon as you go high the 2 engine aircraft like F18, F15, Fulcrum, Flanker will have an advantage. The F-16 has better maneuverability than the F-18. I believe the F-16, and F/A-18E are in different classes now. The Hornet has moved up to being a heavyweight fighter. I would buy the Super Hornet if I were to buy American.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Mar 2010 00:47

iirc from reports, Putin is coming for signing the Mig29K version additions. What as that got to do with MRCA trails going on?, and how could one make Mig35 "becoming a certain" just because Putin is coming.

Besides, Putin should be more interested in our PAK-FA deal rather MRCA.

BTW, is there a Mig35 vs EF2K or Rafale won on who comparison that gives Mig35 10:1 kill?

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 07 Mar 2010 00:00

MKI , PAK FA , Talwar class Frigates , Gorki , Mig - 29k , MTA , hypersonic brahmos - Russia has more than enough on it's thali from the Indian side , I'm sure they are more than satisfied even without Mig-35

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Mar 2010 00:35

I would like to add something Austin posted on the PAK-FA thread:

Austin wrote:
Rahul M wrote:but there was also one 117S ?

austin, could you give us a primer on the current roosi engines ? what config would you expect the mig 5gen to have ? and which engines ?
...............................................

Mig fate has effectively been sealed ,Putin recently mentioned about a new 5th Gen Bomber besides PAK-FA , nothing on another mig or light 5th gen plane/engine. They probably have to be content developing Skat type UCAV in the future and Mig-35/29K for now.

......................................

If I may, I really do not even see the future that Austin sees. And considering where the MiG-35 is in terms of tooling, etc, my gut feel is that they are a long way from where India wants to be. Besides even the most lagging western vendor is in a much better situation in terms of maturity of technology and capability to deliver on transfer to whatever extent Indian needs are.

I think the 35 should be scratched and India should concentrate on the FGFA with the Russians. The 35 will be more of a distraction than anything else.

On the list of past assistance - that is great - but India should not make decisions (as far as possible) on such basis.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2010 22:47

Recent Mig-35 test platform photo ( via keypubs )

Mig-35 (9-61)

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2010 22:56

NRao wrote:If I may, I really do not even see the future that Austin sees. And considering where the MiG-35 is in terms of tooling, etc, my gut feel is that they are a long way from where India wants to be.

Irrespective of the fate of Mig-35 via-a-viz MMRCA , it has a future in RuAF they have decided to order atleast 24 Mig-35 for now.

Certainly with no new 5th Gen Light Fighter and huge number to be replace ,Su-35 and Mig-35 will see as cost effective alternative to fill in the number role specially the former.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 08 Mar 2010 00:39

If you look at the procurement history of RuAF,24 mig35 is so small a number that it is no procurement at all, ..(in Russian context)

Its comparable with procurement of 20 LCAs in IAF, . since LCA is not yet fully developed,but still going changes, thats why such a meagre interest in IAF,. Maybe mig35 is at its most mature stage of development,hence such a small interest from RuAF,.

No source indicates that MIG35 's(mig29 platform's) further development is planned in Russia into more variants,. They even scrapped Mig1.44/MFI !!

The only platform amongst MRCAs offered having further scope of development is Rafale,. Eurofighter for sure ,will be replaced by F35 or some other stealth versions and it is also in KSA(accessible to PAF everyday).
There isnt any surety of full TOT from any producer except French,while russian technology we will get from Pakfa.

Rafale is the most eligible one, but MoD procurement style in India is strange,and we might see surprises .

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Mar 2010 00:41

I think a cost effective solution is ideal, but I guess quality, features and capability aspects should overtake cost is my thought, unless it is too expensive to even consider among alternatives.

I hope we are not blindly filling in for the numbers sake. I understand, our force is dwindling in the number game, but we should also think about the what if scenarios, especially say if China is able to copy Hornet and sell it to pakistan in numbers or they do an aesa copy, and does the same. I know it is a little weirder thought, but I think it is entirely credible, from plan perspective.

Needless to say, we take years and years to narrow down for a single mrca plane. It is important to spend a few more, and get the best for our forces. We don't keep getting oppty, like the one we have for the MRCA. MRCA is a strategic game changing deal to happen.

After the deal, many lines would be drawn, is my assumption. I think this is the reason, GoI/MoD is hurrying up to make many long standing relationship happier - pakfa, mig29ks upgrade and repeat orders, m2k upgrades, etc.

Won-lee EF2K, SH/F16 would be talking here more than the other contenders, who may be partially not disappointed. I may wrong in this, saying that we should not care about how the losers may respond and affect our strategic ideas, but it is a truth, that normally we make sure everyone should be happy, if the loser is any way already associated with us.

So, France and Russia are taken care off.. does not mean they are not important, as life cycle cost can come down on using existing logistics and stores., but not at the cost of advancement and thinking ahead for the future, where by a certain existing systems any way would have outlived and expired.

So, a 30% discount on Rafale or 40% discount on EF2K could make the MRCA contract interesting, so that SH don't just walk away with this precious deal, as they are the current political favorites.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 08 Mar 2010 01:53

Gripens Depart Sweden For Trials In India

Two Swedish Air Force JAS-39 Gripen-Ds departed Sweden on Sunday and are on their way to India as we speak for the final round of the field evaluation trials (FET) under the Indian medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition. The Gripens begin their trials at the Aircraft Systems & Testing Establishment (ASTE) in Bangalore early this week. The Gripen-Ds are being flown by Saab test pilots and Swedish air force pilots.

"IAF test pilots have already undergone Intensive Training on the aircraft and the aircraft have already undergone the First Stage of Trials in Linkoping in November 2009, which included Flight Performance, Logistics Capability, Weapons Systems, Advanced Sensors and Weapons Firing," said Gripen India campaign head Eddy de la Motte in response to an e-mail I sent in to Saab.

Asked about whether the Gripen Demo Aircraft -- on which the Gripen IN is based , Would Figure in the Trials At All, de la Motte said, "The Demo is a development vehicle which the IAF will have Complete Access to within the current parameters of development. Gripen NG capabilities have been Demonstrated during the Evaluation Trials in November 2009 when the Indian Evaluation Team was in Sweden."

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Mar 2010 02:13

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Rahul M wrote:george, weight was the only reason. it would have been difficult for MOD/IAF to justify to the parliament why the f-15 was in running when we already have the MKI. not that the hornet is enormously lighter but it still is under 30t.

The empty SH weighs more than the empty F-15.

the basic F-15 is not multi-role and hence irrelevant to MRCA. but the strike eagle weighs more right ?

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 08 Mar 2010 03:53

We need to have a betting pool over which plane will win the MMRCA.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 08 Mar 2010 03:59

Austin wrote:
NRao wrote:If I may, I really do not even see the future that Austin sees. And considering where the MiG-35 is in terms of tooling, etc, my gut feel is that they are a long way from where India wants to be.
Irrespective of the fate of Mig-35 via-a-viz MMRCA , it has a future in RuAF they have decided to order atleast 24 Mig-35 for now.

Certainly with no new 5th Gen Light Fighter and huge number to be replace ,Su-35 and Mig-35 will see as cost effective alternative to fill in the number role specially the former.

I heard that. Do you know when they are expected to join the RuAF by an chance?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Mar 2010 05:44

NRao wrote:I heard that. Do you know when they are expected to join the RuAF by an chance?

Post 2012 , not to mention the Mig-35 will also have a small export market

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 08 Mar 2010 07:44

Austin, any idea whether the new MiG-35 prototype whose picture you posted has the Zhuk-AE ?

if so, it is important to note the size of the radome is similar to that of the MiG-29K with the Zhuk-ME, indicating that they've managed to miniaturise the Zhuk-AE backend so that the antenna can be moved back further to install around 1000 T/R modules. the earlier MiG-35 prototype had a smaller radome with only 650 T/R modules or so.

indeed, if they managed, then the IN should probably get the next batch of 29 MiG-29Ks with the Zhuk-AE instead of ME. The first batch of 16 MiG-29K/KUBS can then get the AESA during its MLU.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 08 Mar 2010 07:46

Is that right? Whatever happened to their stated claim that they cannot deliver the 35 for MRCA till 13????? Did something change?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Mar 2010 07:49

Kartik wrote:Austin, any idea whether the new MiG-35 prototype whose picture you posted has the Zhuk-AE ?

Kartik no idea , but the new Mig-35 is not the Mig-35 but a converted 29K , probably that is the one doing the weapons trial.

They have been showing and converting every aircraft of 29 series , except that the real Mig-35 is yet to be seen.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 08 Mar 2010 09:51

Austin wrote:
Kartik wrote:Austin, any idea whether the new MiG-35 prototype whose picture you posted has the Zhuk-AE ?
Kartik no idea , but the new Mig-35 is not the Mig-35 but a converted 29K , probably that is the one doing the weapons trial.

They have been showing and converting every aircraft of 29 series , except that the real Mig-35 is yet to be seen.

Firstly, Austin Thx for the pic. She is loverly! But don't be confused, this IS the real Mig-35. The differences between what you see here (a converted MiG-29K) and the real production 35 will be negligible. Perhaps an extra hp under each wing.

Kartik, Reg. the Zhuk A, I believe this is the definitive 1064 TRM AESA. Pibu had it right!

Raosahib,

I had told you then and I reiterate, that one off report stating that they can't manage deliveries when needed (and asked for) should be dissed! The 35 afterall, for most purposes, IS the K!

CM

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 08 Mar 2010 15:12

I saw an single engine fighter aircraft with canards Sunday morning. it was trying to land in HAL airport, made huge noise over our apartment. Possibly its the gripen

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Mar 2010 16:55

Cain Marko wrote: Firstly, Austin Thx for the pic. She is loverly! But don't be confused, this IS the real Mig-35. The differences between what you see here (a converted MiG-29K) and the real production 35 will be negligible. Perhaps an extra hp under each wing.

The problem CM sahab is we have seen couple of Mig-29 labeled as Mig-35 first it was the Mig-29SMT now it is the Mig-29K , there is is a model of real Mig-35 with larger wing area and extra hard points and 3D TVC.

UAC has not commented and PiBu if i recollect says Mig-35 is under construction , its so confusing onleeee.

Sometimes I wonder if Mig is really serious about MMRCA race or is just there for the heck of it , but considering they have participated in the last 3 AI , advertised it and are running for trials they must be some interest in being competitive in the MMRCA if not winning it.

What ever happens to Mig-35 in MMRCA , I feel its a good aircraft and a good pilot should be confident that he can fly and fight with the likes of F-18 E/F or Gripen,EF without having the feeling that he is some what outclassed in technology or airframe performance and if he is good at what he does he should win against it.

lilaspr · Post by **lilaspr** » 08 Mar 2010 20:28

Carl_T wrote:We need to have a betting pool over which plane will win the MMRCA.

I have this feeling somehow MKI is better or equal to MiG-35, Plus our pilots are comfortable with it as well. We should order more MKI in case we are pushed to go for MiG-35.

India should concentrate on PAK FA. DO u guys think India has chance or plans to get F35 for Navy?

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 09 Mar 2010 00:39

$11 bn in the balance, a no-show by Gripen fighter

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi March 09, 2010, 0:43 IST

The high-voltage $11 billion contest to sell India 126 Medium Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MMRCA) is reaching the end of the trials phase in a blaze of potential controversy. Today, the last of the six contenders being evaluated by the Indian Air Force — the Swedish Gripen — will fly into Bangalore for trials. But Business Standard has learnt that the fighters that will touch down are not the ones Gripen International has offered: the JAS-39IN Gripen NG. Instead, two older-model Gripen-D fighters will arrive.

The Gripen NG, a light, agile, ultra-modern fighter built by Swedish aerospace giant Saab, has always been one of the hottest contenders in the fray. Saab’s default on the MoD’s trial directive, which lays down that the fighter being offered must be the one that comes for trials, will delight its rivals — Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Dassault, Eurofighter and MiG — since Gripen is now vulnerable to disqualification.

The arrival of the Gripen-D instead of the Gripen NG has a simple cause: the Swedish Air Force, having opted to buy the Gripen NG, has ordered a series of improvements on the Gripen NG prototype. With those under way, Sweden’s flight certification agency, SMV, has ruled that the prototypes require additional flight-testing in Sweden before the aircraft can be sent to India.

Confirming these developments, Gripen International’s Director India Eddy de la Motte told Business Standard, “The Gripen NG prototype cannot come just yet to India as it is required in Sweden for testing and evaluation by the Swedish Air Force which is interested in buying the fighter. Indian pilots have not yet flown the Gripen NG, but we will make sure that they get an opportunity at the very earliest.”

Sources close to the Gripen campaign say IAF pilots will be offered a chance to fly the Gripen NG during a visit to Sweden from April 6 to April 10. Gripen International will also ask for fresh dates for bringing the Gripen NG to India for trials.Even without having flown the Gripen NG prototype, IAF pilots have been extremely impressed by the fighter’s capabilities. Besides superb avionics and superior flight performance, they say the Gripen NG can land on an 800-metre stretch of highway; and then refuel, rearm and take-off within 10 minutes. This allows each Gripen NG to fly far more sorties per day than any other aircraft today.

The IAF pilots who have visited the Gripen simulators in Sweden have also been impressed by its electronic warfare capabilities and by the training facilities on offer.

The Swedish MoD’s unexpected refusal to allow the Gripen NG to India for trials has blown the race wide open. From a clear front-runner in the eyes of the IAF, the Gripen NG’s very participation in trials now depends upon a decision to be taken by the IAF and the Indian MoD.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... er/387992/

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Mar 2010 02:55

that is sad news for Gripen NG fans. I am sure, MoD wouldn't bend over for time, and ask them to send an NG later before we decide the final 3 (again per reports) that is supposed to happening after the user trials, and recommended to babudom, where the real-politick going to take place soon.

if NG is gone, then advantage SH.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 09 Mar 2010 04:08

SaiK wrote:that is sad news for Gripen NG fans. I am sure, MoD wouldn't bend over for time, and ask them to send an NG later before we decide the final 3 (again per reports) that is supposed to happening after the user trials, and recommended to babudom, where the real-politick going to take place soon.

if NG is gone, then advantage SH.

We don't know if that is indeed going to be held against Saab or not. if the IAF allowed a MiG-35 prototype that wasn’t the final MiG-35 variant to perform flight trials in India then this may also be ignored- although one must add that the differences between the MiG-35's final prototype and the converted MiG-29M2 prototype are not as great as those between the Gripen NG and Gripen C/D.
There will be some differences in flight performance between the Gripen D and NG demo, due to the slightly heavier airframe, new fairings and more powerful engine, but in most likelihood, it would have worked in Saab's favour to bring the NG demo if they could. The increase in thrust is quite substantial compared to the weight increase, improving upon the T/W ratio of the C/D which will certainly count for a lot in the Leh leg of the trials. The current Gripen D will perform just about as well as the Tejas prototypes did during the cold-weather testing phase in Leh- and we've seen how laboured and long the take-off is due to the thin air.
But without having attained certification, it may well be illegal for it to fly out of Swedish airspace, making it impossible to bring it to India- if so, I feel that the MoD will understand. And if IAF pilots have already been invited to test-fly the NG demo in Sweden in just a month's time, then at least they'll get a first-hand look at the aircraft and judge its basic handling qualities. There is still an element of risk involved in this program that has been noted especially by Brazil- and Saab has been able to meet its deadlines and commitments till now, but there is quite a bit of work remaining to be done before the NG can become an in-service frontline fighter.
Anyway, reading the article it seems like there is quite a bit of goodwill amongst the IAF towards the Gripen. This isn't the first time I'm reading about that either. What will be very interesting (if we ever get to know about it that is) is what the IAF and HAL technicians who evaluate the Gripen D's maintenance requirements think about it. I mean does it meet the extremely low maintenance requirement figures and flight hour costs that are given or do they find that its slightly exaggerated. If they find its actually as low as stated, it’s a huge plus in the Gripen NG's favour.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 09 Mar 2010 05:31

Austin wrote:The problem CM sahab is we have seen couple of Mig-29 labeled as Mig-35 first it was the Mig-29SMT now it is the Mig-29K , there is is a model of real Mig-35 with larger wing area and extra hard points and 3D TVC.

Nahi nahi, MiG-29SMT was never labeled MiG-35, not even MRCA. The first glimpse of the 35 came in the MiG-29MRCA shown to austria, and RMAF - the same little 154 that was seen in India recently for flight evals. This was a MiG-29M - the airframe is considerably different from an SMT (the only SMTs currently flying are the ones in VVS - algerian rejects), which is just an upgrade - no more.

The monicker "MIG-35" came to life only after MiG publicly revealed the Zhuk A @ AI 07. Until then it was only MiG-29M and MiG-29OVT.

As far as the model goes, it was only that - a model, a possibility thats all, not a definitive version. The model by the way is nothing but a K, without the xtra flaperon giving it a cranked wing look. The 11hps come because of dropping the folding wing mechanism in all problity.

UAC has not commented and PiBu if i recollect says Mig-35 is under construction , its so confusing onleeee.

The MiG-35 "under construction" is naught but a MiG-29K without the landing gear and folding wings. So really saar, no need for conphusion - the 35D or KUB in that pic is v.v.close to the real deal.

Sometimes I wonder if Mig is really serious about MMRCA race or is just there for the heck of it , but considering they have participated in the last 3 AI , advertised it and are running for trials they must be some interest in being competitive in the MMRCA if not winning it.

MiG is dead serious but low on dough for development. It's seriousness is shown in the fact that it has done soo much to the M version already. From hooking up the KLIVT nozzles, to showing willingness on the Bars PESA to the integrating a new AESA and OLS and internal active Jammer + MAWS. Not to mention getting the airframe up to par and bumping up fuel capacity and payload. Did I forget new engines? Overall, they are almost justified in calling it a MiG-35

.
However, MiG is cash strapped esp. in today's economic downturn, so it is naturally constrained in building a model from scratch - to what purpose should it build a solitary aircraft when it can use a IN MiG-29K for 95% of the role of a 35 demo? Esp. when the IAF order is not a sure thing?

What ever happens to Mig-35 in MMRCA , I feel its a good aircraft and a good pilot should be confident that he can fly and fight with the likes of F-18 E/F or Gripen,EF without having the feeling that he is some what outclassed in technology or airframe performance and if he is good at what he does he should win against it.

It is no doubt a damned good aircraft but I doubt it will see IAF colors, however, do expect to see it in numbers in the form of the IN MiG-29K!

CM

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 09 Mar 2010 09:05

this is from the interview with Dr. Saraswat..very very important that the GoI keep this in mind before choosing the MRCA winner.

Q. But hasn’t it become easier since the Indo-US nuclear deal to obtain technology?

A. No. We are still victims of US denial regimes. Our labs are still on the “Entity List”. Technology denial continues. There is a big gap between American talk and action towards us.

prabir · Post by **prabir** » 09 Mar 2010 18:35

We just need to enage US in non-serious stuff. As long as their defense lobby gets money from India, they will do the necessary lobbying to protect Indian interests.
We should buy serious stuff from Europe and Russia. US has a tendency to nose around too much in internal workings of political and military establishment to further its interests.

This is why, it is not useful to engage US in any serious stuff.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Mar 2010 18:59

AWST has a feature on the arrival in India of the MIG-29K for the IN.The fanfare that this aircraft is getting at home from the security establishment has made one western watcher predict that there is more to this arrival,"drawing a dotted line from the MIG-29K to the MIG-35" for the MMRCA.This assumption is based upon cost being a principal factor again quoted as saying that "the IAF is not a chooser but a user".This implies that despite the technical evaluation of the various aircraft,the IAF will have to go the GOI's way where cost has a major bearing upon the final decision.A former AM told me that the IAF will never give a definite ranking,but mention each birds' capabilities comparitively,"A is better than B in BVR,etc.,but B is better in strike,etc." giving the leeway GOI to take a final decision based upon overall assessment which includes political aspects.

Some others say that recent Indo-US warming of relations thanks to Dubya gives the US an edge too,but assuming that the political stregth of both the US and Russia-the two heavweights evens each other out,then the cost of the rival aircraft and its long term operating life-cycle costs included, will tilt the scales.

It is here that the Gripen and MIG-35 are expected to be the cheapest of the lot.Premier Putin's visit is eagerly anticipated as he is reputed for carrying quite a few tricks up his sleeve.The overall Indo-Russian defence relationship far exceeds anything imaginable in comparison with any other nation,most of all with the US.Nuclear subs,nuclear sub tech,nuclear power plants,nuclera sub bases,Gorshkov deal,Brahmos Amurs (anticipated),advanced missiles including anti-AWACS LR missiles,PAK-FA 5th-gen fighter,MTA,T-90s,FMBT development,offer of jet trainers,amphibians,apart from the existing Flanker production and MIG-29 upgrades and engine production,make the Russian pressure very hard to resist if its challenger comes along with "extras" as part of a package.With the extra MIG-29Ks signing expected during his visit and the Gorshkov price settled,one can be sure that Premier Putin will make an offer to the GOI which they will find difficult to refuse.In which case we might see more orders for MIGs as well as a western bird for the MMRCA.

The only strong factor that will be uppermost in the minds of the GOI is acquiring parallel western tech for providing our indigenous industry with a strong foundation upon which we can develop our own indigenous aircraft industry using the best of both worlds.While US tech is very welcome,if it can provide the same without the multiple strings and conditions that the Europeans do not insist upon,it is going to be a courageous govt. that wil opt solely for a US bird because of the fear of future sanctions,etc. during crisis ,especially for such a vital component of the IAF's inventory.

In a not too old interview with our previous air chief,I spotted an interesting statement from him in it,that the "PAK-FA 5th-gen fighter would replace the MMRCA from about 2017..."! This is a most revealing statement of intent if true as it would indiate that the IAF wants only an interin fighter to make up numbers until the super-stealth bird arrives,well realising that the MMRCA birds belong to the 4+ to 4++ gen. at the most and will be swiftly outclassed by the 5th-gen bird whilst also being inferior to the existing Flanker and its future derivatives on order.This being the case,it explains some statements that over-exceeding the IAF's required capabilities will not bring in any "extra points" for the rivals as well as extra cost.

The imminent trip of the For.Sec. to the US for "high-tech" exports to India,could indicate that the issue of tech transfer and support to India has yet to be resolved and will be attempted so that the US birds get even with the Russians and Europeans.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 10 Mar 2010 04:36

Brazil to make fighter jet decision by end of March: general

Lula said his preference for the French jet derived from France's offer to give Brazil all the technology involved in the Rafale's construction -- a key point for Brazil, which wants the knowhow to one day make its own modern fighters.

But the air force, through leaks in the Brazilian media, has indicated it prefers the much cheaper Gripen NG jet from Sweden's Saab.

The third option, the F/A-18 Super Hornet from US group Boeing, is seen as with only an outside chance because of US refusal in the past to allow Brazil to export aircraft using US technology.

Early this month, the Brazilian government denied it had made a final decision to buy the Rafales, and said a newspaper report that Dassault had lopped two billion dollars off their total price to secure the contract was baseless.

The daily, Folha de S. Paulo, published an unsourced report saying France was willing to sell the Rafales for a discounted 6.2 billion dollars -- down from 8.2 billion dollars -- plus another four billion dollars in maintenance over the next three decades.

The Gripen was priced at 4.5 billion dollars plus 1.5 billion dollars in maintenance, while the F/A-18s were valued at 5.7 billion plus 1.9 billion in maintenance.

France is keen to make Brazil the first export customer of its Rafale, after losing out in several other tenders around the world.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Mar 2010 10:53

Tx Craig for the figures.If we go by the same yardstick,then the Rafale is clearly out of the contest,as there would be 4 cheaper fighters (F-16IN,F-18SH,Gripen and MIG-35) offering TOT and meeting the IAF's requirements.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 10 Mar 2010 12:59

Putin to push Mig35 during India visit?

The source close to Rosoboronexport said three other defense deals may be discussed during the visit, although he declined to speculate on whether they would be signed. The talks could include the sale of 126 MiG-35 fighters, which are being tested as part of an Indian defense tender; development of the Russian-Indian fifth generation PAK FA fighter; and modernization of Su-30 MKI fighters.

Additionally, India is expected to complete a tender to buy patrol ships for its navy later this year, and Russia could participate in their construction, the source said. "It is most likely that an Indian company would win it, but they will build vessels in cooperation with Russia because they wouldn't be able to do it on their own."

Putin is most likely to sign deals to finish the aircraft carrier, sell 29 MiG-29 fighters that would be based on the carrier for $1.2 billion and jointly develop the MTA transport aircraft, Vedomosti reported last week, citing sources close to Rosoboronexport's management.

Rosoboronexport spokesman Vyacheslav Davydenko confirmed that the three agreements would be discussed, but he declined to comment on the terms of possible agreements."We never link our contracts to official visits, so I can't say which of them may be signed during the visit and which may not," he said.

Experts said India was likely to stick with Russian-made arms, despite expressing concern about the quality of some aircraft and the problems with the aircraft carrier. In 2009 alone, India lost two Su-30 MKI, three MiG-27s and three MiG-21s in noncombat crashes.

"The Indian army is equipped with Soviet arms, and switching to Western analogues takes a long time," said Alexander Pikayev, a senior research fellow at the Institute of World Economy and International Relations. "Also, Russia was the only country so far that agreed to sell India an aircraft carrier, so it looks like India has no other choice."

An economist giving his great views on why India has 'no choice' but to purchase Russian coz they sold u an overpriced carrier..

is he just being cocky or overconfident or a bit of both??

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/ ... 01283.html

Another source..

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/03/ ... 268199164/

Really wonder though if Putin' visit could be the game changer for the Mig??

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 10 Mar 2010 21:09

Eurofighter Flight Simulator Demo at Defexpo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWwhZKRy5CA

Lockheed Martin's F-16 simulator

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XIMrhGBpL4

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 11 Mar 2010 00:01

Now since f22 arent further produced,its time to buy f16 IN, get apg80 technology &install it in Pakfa .

Say thanks to amrikis for digging their own ditch

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 Mar 2010 00:28

Philip wrote: Tx Craig for the figures.If we go by the same yardstick,then the Rafale is clearly out of the contest,as there would be 4 cheaper fighters (F-16IN,F-18SH,Gripen and MIG-35) offering TOT and meeting the IAF's requirements.

read the article and the figures carefully again. there is something definitely wrong with those figures, otherwise each Gripen NG works out to $125 million ! How on earth is that cheap ?? the SH works out to $158 million per unit and the Rafale is too obscene an amount to even quote. Looking at these prices the Typhoons sold to the Saudis (which at the time of its sale seemed an unGodly amount) and the SH sold to the Aussies seem to suddenly not be the most expensive, but without a shred of doubt, there is more to the price than meets the eye.

Perhaps it includes operating costs for 10 years plus weapons and ToT fees as well as costs to set up assembly lines in Brazil. Its most certainly not the fly-away or even fully-equipped cost which are the prices mostly quoted during MRCA price comparisons. The Gripen NG's cost couldn't have shot up from $70 million Saab offer for the Dutch tender for 85 aircraft to $125 million in just 2 years without there being other factors like ToT fees, assembly line setup costs and operating costs added to the mix.

So the Brazil tender may be a wrong price indicator, otherwise the MRCA winner will struggle to fit into the $12 billion or so that was budgeted originally. Although we know how the snail-paced MoD works, so that by the time they wrap up negotiations, we'll see a price escalation of $1-2 billion easily for hundreds of reasons. Another Parliamentary Committee with blast the MoD and they'll come up with some weak excuse and things will go on as usual.

My point being that the MRCA price negotiations and the Brazilian price negotiations may not have the same criteria to decide price and which is the cheapest. While life-cycle costs are included in the MRCA, we don't know how they'll be used during the price negotiations.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 Mar 2010 00:44

sumshyam wrote:Eurofighter Flight Simulator Demo at Defexpo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWwhZKRy5CA

Lockheed Martin's F-16 simulator

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XIMrhGBpL4

thanks! both the aircraft seem very capable looking at that demo.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 11 Mar 2010 10:08

sumshyam wrote:Eurofighter Flight Simulator Demo at Defexpo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWwhZKRy5CA

Lockheed Martin's F-16 simulator

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XIMrhGBpL4

Thanks for the vids. Very interesting watch.