MRCA News and Discussion

[johnny_m]

Philip,

The F 16s offered to India are superior to the ones being offered to Pakistan. And moreover no matter what you do to a block 50/52 it will never be as good as a block 60. So your parallels to Israel and Egypt with Israel getting better F 16s is way of the mark.

[RKumar]

Philip,

The F 16s offered to India are superior to the ones being offered to Pakistan. And moreover no matter what you do to a block 50/52 it will never be as good as a block 60. So your parallels to Israel and Egypt with Israel getting better F 16s is way of the mark.

This is the very same logic, a marketing guy will give to each neigbour who are buying to show I have better stuff then you. After 5 years USA will give pak F-16 block 60 and will suggest India to buy JSF citing oh you have old stuff ... look even pak has it.... so keep the money flowing

[girish.r]

This is the very same logic, a marketing guy will give to each neigbour who are buying to show I have better stuff then you. After 5 years USA will give pak F-16 block 60 and will suggest India to buy JSF citing oh you have old stuff ... look even pak has it.... so keep the money flowing

Exactly! And we will redo this thread when JSF would be evaluated by India...

[Kavu]

The insane logic defeats me.The US sells Pak sophisticated military hardware to give it the advantage over India and India in return buys similar US hardware,which gives us little or no advantage at all and only enriches the US arms naufacturers! If we have to defend ourselves and buy foreign weapon systems to counter Pak's US arms then by all means buy anything else BUT US!

Just look at how the US is treating India over Headley and Raman's statements that all are protected, US interests (CIA,FBI,DEA),ISI's interests,....except the poor defenceless Indian!
We are being "shafted" time and time again by Uncle Sam and his henchmen of the ISI thanks to MMS & Co.

That analogy fits quite nicely with Russia selling Su-30MK to China, and then selling us Su-30MKI, then in trying to sell the Chinese Su-35 SuperFlanker. Same with Kilo Class Subs(877EKM - 636), Same with Sunburns etc. I have been reading BR for nearly a decade now, and let me tell you even for a lurker your attitude is getting quite irritating.

My Apologies to the rest of the crowd.

[johnny_m]

R Kumar,

India do not have to respond Pakistan buying F 16s at a future date by doing the same. The MRCA has a specific role to fill in the IAF and by the time Pakistan is going to acquire 4++ generation fighters India will have the FGFA ready.

If things go well in the indigenous front the MRCA is likely to be the last foreign purchase of fighters by the IAF.

[Kavu]

Whether one agrees with Philipji's posts or not (one man's chalice is another man's poison....finally it all boils down to a matter of perspective, isn't it?), I have always found his posts interesting to read....Various members on BRF bring forth their own perspective on an issue and as long as any person's posts is not blatantly anti-India, looking at an issue from various angles is what makes a particular topic interesting....

I have to say he takes it to the level of insanity and blind love for another nation, I dont see any of the USA supporters in BRF(if there are any) take it to that level. It is important as Indians we remain dispassionate and proper in our understanding of Geopolitics and our aims at superpowerdom. His constant baggering on Pakistan and USA, takes our aim out of the most powerful and deceitful adversary the Chinese. Anyways back to topic. Russia has sold more arms to China, than USA sold to Pakistan, Simply put.
So lets keep out that kind of politics and talk out of this. And, I do believe this will be taken by either EF or Gripen NG. And yes, it will be a political decision.

[RKumar]

R Kumar,

India do not have to respond Pakistan buying F 16s at a future date by doing the same. The MRCA has a specific role to fill in the IAF and by the time Pakistan is going to acquire 4++ generation fighters India will have the FGFA ready.

If things go well in the indigenous front the MRCA is likely to be the last foreign purchase of fighters by the IAF.

I wish and pray that what you have said is materialized.

The way things are at this moment.... I have hard time to accept it. As per FGFA, there was no contract signed with Russia when Putin was in India. Russian have first prioirty to make this plane for themself and introduce in RAF then they will think about IAF and do required modifications. Russian are not even want to give 25% development share as per my understanding. And I hope things dont turn ugly, as it is happening with all major defense deals. Cost esclation is just too much, when world is in recession.

[RKumar]

Russia has sold more arms to China, than USA sold to Pakistan, Simply put.
So lets keep out that kind of politics and talk out of this. And, I do believe this will be taken by either EF or Gripen NG. And yes, it will be a political decision.

Russia have sold arms to China where as USA is donating as well providing money to buy more to Pak. If Pak buys at real cost from ABC, we dont have any problem.

[johnny_m]

Actually things are agreed in principle. Russian sources say deal will be signed in the next few months. 25% work share is still very decent because we joined the programme very late.

X post from Keypubs

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpo ... tcount=637

Mikhail Pogosyan:
We will put India's 250 fighters of the fifth generation

Yuri Zainashev, GZT.ru
March 12, 2010

On the eve of the visit of the Prime Minister of Russia Vladimir Putin in New Delhi in Russia's government reported that an agreement on joint production with the Indians fifth-generation fighter T-50 is unlikely to be achieved within the framework of the visit, although even in late February, the agreement announced.The delegation accompanying Putin on and Mikhail Pogosyan, head of Sukhoi Company, created the T-50. About how, in what time frame can now be concluded a deal with India, with Mikhail Pogosyan talks columnist GZT.RU Yuri Zainashev.

Why is agreement on a fighter is postponed, Mikhail Aslanovich? The differences relate to money or performance?
There is no disagreement on this issue with our Indian partners. The only question that we are ready to move faster, and our Indian colleagues need some more time. These talks, which are waging since the beginning of last year, I think we will finish within a few months.In general, there are many questions, but they relate only to how we move forward in implementing this program.
Why do Indians prefer the two-seater plane, while you have only a single ready?
They plan to use and single, double and airplanes. Никакой специфики тут нет. No specificity is not here. Simply, we initially focused on a single version, but as the program double must also appear.
The negotiations have heard estimates of the number of fighters that you could produce with the Indians?
Now while negotiations for the holding of joint development work, that is, in the coming months to conclude negotiations on the initial phase of joint development. At this stage the amount of detail is not discussed, but roughly we expect that the total will exceed 600 aircraft.
The total lifespan of most of these aircraft - age 60. For example, we began to mass-produce the Su-27 in 1983-1984, and modification of the Su-30 MKI and Su-35 will, I think, be made until at least 2020. In view of this aircraft, which we carry in 2020, I think, will survive until 2050.
So when we talk about the timing of production aircraft, it is 25-35 years.And for such a period we will make, I think, well, at least 700, and I appreciate all the market in more than a thousand aircraft.
If we take the largest aircraft program's fourth-generation family of Su-27 and Su-30, we put on the market more than 1300 aircraft. For comparison: the American F-15 program - is 1500 planes.
With regard to a specific timetable for delivery of aircraft, it is a matter for future negotiations. I think that at least 200-250 aircraft will be delivered to the Air Force in India. I am about to assess the extent of such transfers on the basis of the extent of the program Su-30 MKI, on the basis of the program of the tender, which India holds on a light fighter.
Tender for a light fighter, as far as is known, will take place next month, and in Russia.
As you might expect, how to grow your chances of success in it after the current visit of Vladimir Putin?
Hopefully, this program is on the political level, takes support.The tender is held on the program MRCA (Multi Role Combat Aircraft - a multipurpose tactical aircraft - GZT. RU) - a multi-purpose combat aircraft.
We actively participate in the tender, we will demonstrate the MiG-35. In this regard, we look forward to a multi-faceted experience of our previous cooperation with India.But this will not only strengthen the long-term strategic cooperation between our countries, it will be indeed a small but important advantage to the technical and commercial proposals, which we launched in the bidding.

Can you fairly describe the advantages of their rivals in this tender?
In this tender includes all the leading manufacturers of military aircraft. In Russia, it is primarily the United States, Western Europe. From America - a two aircraft: F-18 firm Boeing and the F-16 Company Lockheed Martin. European projects presented three: the Eurofighter Typhoon - a joint product of Great Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain. This Rafale, a French company which produces Dassault Aviation. JAS 39, which produces the Swedish company SAAB.
We are constantly entering the three most powerful potential participants in the tender. I would to this trio took another F-18 and, probably, Eurofighter.
Political support in this tender has for all participants, but I think that our level of strategic cooperation with India is different from the level of India's cooperation with other countries. But this visit can generally take a comprehensive look at the interaction between the two countries.

A bad translation job, but it says PAK FA deal will be agreed soon and the Russians do think the MIG 35 has a chance.

Russia have sold arms to China where as USA is donating as well providing money to buy more to Pak. If Pak buys at real cost from ABC, we dont have any problem.

Russia are still selling arms to china and selling engines to JF 17s.

If you look at the weapons Pakistanis are getting for free from the Americans, they are mostly LGBs, Arrack Helicopters and Attack Helicopter upgrades, to be used against the Taliban.

Pakistan is paying for the F 16s, F 16 MLU and AMRAAMs.

[Kavu]

Russia has sold more arms to China, than USA sold to Pakistan, Simply put.
So lets keep out that kind of politics and talk out of this. And, I do believe this will be taken by either EF or Gripen NG. And yes, it will be a political decision.

Russia have sold arms to China where as USA is donating as well providing money to buy more to Pak. If Pak buys at real cost from ABC, we dont have any problem.

How does that Change anything for us? Will Weapons bought with money dont fire, when they try to cut down the Chicken neck? If anything, by donating arms and keeping the military relevant, the Americans have done more damage to Pakistan as an entity than we ever could. Sometimes I believe Russia supporters over here loves that country even more than the Russians and at the cost of India and her interests.

And oh, Please Russia may sell to China, but China donates to Pakistan, and Russia knows it quite well. They are not some bunch of naive idiots. So how is it different from USA? I have high praise for BRF, But this is getting ridiculous.

[putnanja]

How does that Change anything for us? Will Weapons bought with money dont fire, when they try to cut down the Chicken neck? If anything, by donating arms and keeping the military relevant, the Americans have done more damage to Pakistan as an entity than we ever could. Sometimes I believe Russia supporters over here loves that country even more than the Russians and at the cost of India and her interests.

And oh, Please Russia may sell to China, but China donates to Pakistan, and Russia knows it quite well. They are not some bunch of naive idiots. So how is it different from USA? I have high praise for BRF, But this is getting ridiculous.

If pakis were to pay with their hard earned cash for the american arms, their economy would go down even faster, a la USSR. Giving them billions in aid helps them use their cash for other stuff, besides using it to purchase more arms from other countries. And please educate us on how by donating arms to Pakistan, US has done more damage to pakistan??

China is reverse engineering russian arms, and hence the Russian reluctance to part with their latest and greatest wrt China. And china isn't donating the latest arms it gets to Pakistan, only the substandard copies that it makes.

[Kavu]

If pakis were to pay with their hard earned cash for the american arms, their economy would go down even faster, a la USSR. Giving them billions in aid helps them use their cash for other stuff, besides using it to purchase more arms from other countries. And please educate us on how by donating arms to Pakistan, US has done more damage to pakistan??

Look at Pakistan now.
Like it or not, USA needs Pakistan, Just like we need Burma. Deal with it.

China is reverse engineering russian arms, and hence the Russian reluctance to part with their latest and greatest wrt China. And china isn't donating the latest arms it gets to Pakistan, only the substandard copies that it makes.

Yet they kept on selling them, yet they allowed RD-93 Engines, Yet they kept Selling sunburns and Sovermenneys, Yet they are the largest network non-chinese Scientist working for them. Russia will sell us, as much as or more than the US ever will. China donated the god damn Nuke to Pakistan, What more should they do?


Last post on the subject.

[Craig Alpert]

And china isn't donating the latest arms it gets to Pakistan, only the substandard copies that it makes.

for Obvious reasons! If they end up selling their latest arms to Pakis, then the whole world would get exposed to their arms. 2 reasons behind this 1) Political implications with India (not that it has stopped it in the past, but 2day both India and China are in a different category than Pakistan and the Chinks very well understand this!) and 2) AGAIN, India spanking the Chinki Equipment and showing to the rest of the world, just how much the so called "high tech" Chinese equipment IS high-tech!!! Hence NO MORE fear factor by the west, no more marketing opportunity to the underdeveloped nations! and worst of all NO MORE National Respect!!!!

[putnanja]

If pakis were to pay with their hard earned cash for the american arms, their economy would go down even faster, a la USSR. Giving them billions in aid helps them use their cash for other stuff, besides using it to purchase more arms from other countries. And please educate us on how by donating arms to Pakistan, US has done more damage to pakistan??

Look at Pakistan now.
Like it or not, USA needs Pakistan, Just like we need Burma. Deal with it.

China is reverse engineering russian arms, and hence the Russian reluctance to part with their latest and greatest wrt China. And china isn't donating the latest arms it gets to Pakistan, only the substandard copies that it makes.

Yet they kept on selling them, yet they allowed RD-93 Engines, Yet they kept Selling sunburns and Sovermenneys, Yet they are the largest network non-chinese Scientist working for them. Russia will sell us, as much as or more than the US ever will.


Last post on the subject.

Er, please don't run like that. You still haven't explained how US has done more damage to Pakistan by donating it arms.

If India had brains, it too would have employed the ex-Soviet specialists once USSR dissolved and they lost their jobs. China was smart and made a move. I once spoke to a Russian PhD in mathematics who was driving a cab in US. Yeah, he said conditions in ex-USSR was so bad at that time that living US driving cabs was much better.

Like I said, the more arms you donate, the more free cash Pakistan has to buy even more arms from otehr countries like Sweden, Russia etc. Otherwise, they will be forced to limit their arms purchase and that would mean less Indian casualties.

[Kavu]

Er, please don't run like that. You still haven't explained how US has done more damage to Pakistan by donating it arms.

Keeping the Army moderately powerful has made them take control of the whole nation, only to **** it up. Not to mention they kept their Airforce in relative standstill for nearly 2 decades, Presseler Amendment. And if they completely leave out Pakistan, then the Chinese will step in. A scenario which is not good for both India and USA.

If India had brains, it too would have employed the ex-Soviet specialists once USSR dissolved and they lost their jobs. China was smart and made a move. I once spoke to a Russian PhD in mathematics who was driving a cab in US. Yeah, he said conditions in ex-USSR was so bad at that time that living US driving cabs was much better.

Sorry son, I wish it was simple as that, It is the earlier Russian companies sending in their own Staff to work for the Chinese, China has been proliferating Russian weapons for decades, and if you think they are still idiots and were naive. Then there is no use talking to you.

Like I said, the more arms you donate, the more free cash Pakistan has to buy even more arms from otehr countries like Sweden, Russia etc. Otherwise, they will be forced to limit their arms purchase and that would mean less Indian casualties.

So what, Pakistan has no money, so they get weapons, how does that change from the fact that our good friend China, which has lot of free money, buys Russian Weapons, most probably developed from the all the money we gave. Ala Su-35 SuperFlanker, and Su-30MKK. The level weapons sold to the Chinese by the Russians is not funny, Destroyers, Frigates, Carrier Plans, Network Centricity, Rocket Tech, Space Tech(Soyouz) and what not. It simply pales in comparison to the Americans and Pakistanis.

End result is, Whether the Cash Rich Chinese buy it, or the beggar Paki's gets donation, it doesnt make a difference to us. They all will kill our soldiers. Russia and USA, and all other Arms Manufactures and Exporters of this world are simply that way. So, there is absolutely no need to put Russia up in a pedestal

[Rahul M]

..........

kindly cut out the personal attacks will you ?
consider this an unofficial warning.

[putnanja]

Keeping the Army moderately powerful has made them take control of the whole nation, only to **** it up. Not to mention they kept their Airforce in relative standstill for nearly 2 decades, Presseler Amendment. And if they completely leave out Pakistan, then the Chinese will step in. A scenario which is not good for both India and USA.

er, the army has been ruling pakistan for a pretty long period, even before US started giving it free arms. Look at the first post in pakistani thread in the strategic forum to understand pakistan. It never had a democratic gene in its DNA right from its birth.

China and Pakistan have been very close right from 60s. where do you think Pakistan got its nuclear technology from? Chinese proliferated under the very eyes of US, while US president falsely declared that no proliferation occured to avoid sanctions on pakistan during the afghan war in 80s. China has already stepped in a long time back. Even the tomohawk missile that landed on pakistan was handed off to China by pakistan.

Sorry son, I wish it was simple as that, It is the earlier Russian companies sending in their own Staff to work for the Chinese, China has been proliferating Russian weapons for decades, and if you think they are still idiots and were naive. Then there is no use talking to you.

Perhaps, you need to learn a bit more. USSR-Chines relations were down for a pretty long time. Please look up on when the repproachment began and how it slowly transformed to defence relationship. And the Russians made big money by sending in consultants to chinese. Nothing prevented India from doing that. And chinese manufacturing took up only after it liberalized in early 80s.

So what, Pakistan has no money, so they get weapons, how does that change from the fact that our good friend China, which has lot of free money, has no Russian Weapons, most probably developed from the all the money we gave. Ala Su-35 SuperFlanker, and Su-30MKK. The level weapons sold to the Chinese by the Russians is not funny, Destroyers, Frigates, Carrier Plans, Network Centricity, Rocket Tech, Space Tech(Soyouz) and what not. It simply pales in comparison to the Americans and Pakistanis.

er, how much of it has been given free of cost to pakistan? China isn't giving away freebies, it is also charging for them. If pakistan had no money, how can they afford swedish AEW, new submarines etc. All these cost a pretty penny. China has paid for its weapons with hard currency, and given a chance any country will sell to it. France is trying to get EU to lift embargo on weapon sales to china. Even chinese J-10 is based off the Levi design of Israel that it purchased. No one is asking here to not sell arms to pakistan or china, just don't donate them for free.

Pakistan still needs to pay in hard currency for all the weapons it purchases from non-US sources, including whatever it produces indigenously. Giving it billions of dollars worth free arms just encourages it to purchase more with the money saved.

[Kavu]

..........

kindly cut out the personal attacks will you ?
consider this an unofficial warning.

That was fast, My Apologies.

[Kavu]

er, the army has been ruling pakistan for a pretty long period, even before US started giving it free arms. Look at the first post in pakistani thread in the strategic forum to understand pakistan. It never had a democratic gene in its DNA right from its birth.

I have been reading this forum for quite a while, Thank you.

China and Pakistan have been very close right from 60s. where do you think Pakistan got its nuclear technology from? Chinese proliferated under the very eyes of US, while US president falsely declared that no proliferation occured to avoid sanctions on pakistan during the afghan war in 80s. China has already stepped in a long time back. Even the tomohawk missile that landed on pakistan was handed off to China by pakistan.

So when did USA become the Daddy of Pakistan, to make sure they dont get nukes?
What were we doing about Kahuta? You hate the Americans and dont toe their line but still want them to help you, all the while you dont/cant do it yourself too. Spineless.

Perhaps, you need to learn a bit more. USSR-Chines relations were down for a pretty long time. Please look up on when the repproachment began and how it slowly transformed to defence relationship. And the Russians made big money by sending in consultants to chinese. Nothing prevented India from doing that. And chinese manufacturing took up only after it liberalized in early 80s.

You can take pre-65 to Sino-Soviet Stand off, to post break up of Soviet Union. The Russians armed the Chinese to the teeth.

er, how much of it has been given free of cost to pakistan? China isn't giving away freebies, it is also charging for them. If pakistan had no money, how can they afford swedish AEW, new submarines etc. All these cost a pretty penny. China has paid for its weapons with hard currency, and given a chance any country will sell to it. France is trying to get EU to lift embargo on weapon sales to china. Even chinese J-10 is based off the Levi design of Israel that it purchased. No one is asking here to not sell arms to pakistan or china, just don't donate them for free.

You have no clue how the Pakistani pay the Chinese, The Indo-Soviet Special Pricing would seem thievery in front of the Chinese soft loans. Heck, They are developing a fighter which they will not use, but for Pakistan. While the Russians supply Engines for them.

Pakistan still needs to pay in hard currency for all the weapons it purchases from non-US sources, including whatever it produces indigenously. Giving it billions of dollars worth free arms just encourages it to purchase more with the money saved.

[/quote]

US Freebies comes with Strings, and really powerful strings, I rather them have that than give them Soft Chinese Loans. You need to understand Geopolitics better, it is not all black or white.


This will be my last post on the subject.

[putnanja]

So when did USA become the Daddy of Pakistan, to make sure they dont get nukes?
What were we doing about Kahuta? You hate the Americans and dont toe their line but still want them to help you, all the while you dont/cant do it yourself too. Spineless.

No one is asking American help here. And no, not wanting American arms or liking their policy on Pakistan doesn't mean hatred for Americans. It is not hatred for America, but their policy in the region has shown that they are not trustworthy and dependable. I was pointing to double standards of US in ignoring the proliferation of Chinese nuclear arms to Pakistan. And US became the sugar daddy for pakistan long time back

You have no clue how the Pakistani pay the Chinese, The Indo-Soviet Special Pricing would seem thievery in front of the Chinese soft loans. Heck, They are developing a fighter which they will not use, but for Pakistan. While the Russians supply Engines for them.
...

US Freebies comes with Strings, and really powerful strings, I rather them have that than give them Soft Chinese Loans. You need to understand Geopolitics better, it is not all black or white.


This will be my last post on the subject.

Given the level of technology of the thundaar aircraft of China compared to the F-16s, more power to the thundaars

US freebies comes with powerful strings so that US interests are protected, not India's. Does anyone honestly think that the F16 aircraft, 2000 TOW missiles, armed helicopters, frigates, anti-ship missiles, LGB bombs and kits are going to be used to fight Taliban? And if US insisted that they shouldn't be used against India, why would pakistan even buy/get those arms? Yeah, US has strings attached so that pakis don't attack their interests and to get more cooperation from pak on its own GOAT, not to protect India.

Yup, if I was an American, I too would prefer that US arms Pakistan with strings attached. But as an Indian, nope, for those arms are for specifically targeting India, not for targeting Afghanistan, Iran or China.

[anishns]

Kavu quite a few points are well put! (albeit a bit arrogantly)

But, jingos need to understand "Na baap bada na bhaiyya, beta sabse bada rupaiyya"
Whatever the US does or the Russians do....they do it in their own self interest

Some forumites here give a feeling that countries like the US and Russia or for that matter anyone, should bend over backwards to accomodate India otherwise they simply fall out of our favor. Why should they do that? While it makes sense to have a hugely diversified and peaceful democracy with a growing economy on their good side for various reasons, but it is mainly economical. And also the fact that niether the US nor Russia look at India as a direct threat...as China is to them now. Before China became what it is today both the uber powers have shared beds with her in their own way....again serving their national interest and no one else's. There was money to be made giving/selling technology to China and thats precisely what the Russian's did. Now, whether we we debate that its low quality, stolen technology or whatever, China still has an established MIC with international markets, unlike us poor Indians. I doubt Russia will sell any high-tech stuff to China because that will work against them now...and niether will the Chinese be dying to "buy" it from Russia.

The American's suddenly developed love for us because there is money to be made and we maybe in a position to counter the Chinese threat. Tomorrow if India really arrives on the world stage....with global aspirations. Then we will see if the Americans or the Russians will be willing to sell/share with us anything substantial. So, basically no point in whining over they do this or they do that...or they prop up Pakistan or they prop up China....and showing undying love towards the Russians (which is quite stark...I must mention among a few ) while dissing it to the Americans. We will get nowhere if we stick with this mentality, the need of the hour is to get the best that is available to us and learn to stand on our own feet. ("Guzurgon ne farmaya ke apne pairon pe khade ho ke dikhlao, phir yeh zamaana tumhara!" - AB in Namak Halaal)

I am sure this is offtopic, but wanted to put this here to cool down tempers and attempt to address undue biases in some posts. Mods, can move it ,if required

[Kavu]

Kavu wrote:

It is important as Indians we remain dispassionate and proper in our understanding of Geopolitics

But later states:

You hate the Americans and dont toe their line but still want them to help you, all the while you dont/cant do it yourself too. Spineless.

Suddenly from initial 'as Indians we' later becomes 'you hate the Americans'....hmm....

US Freebies comes with Strings, and really powerful strings

And when US sells arms (or would sell arms) to India, they would come with zero strings?

[/quote]

One way it wont, Why ? Because they are not Freebies, secondly we are not Pakistan.
But on other hand EUMA, is a problem and a serious problem at that. But it is for us to be prudent, and weigh the consequences as well as the benefits of such a purchase. I think we can put out a lot of other carrots than Defense Purchases. Which is why, even though there is no better strike package than the SuperHornet, I dont advocate it at all, I prefer the EF.

[Kavu]

But hasn’t Pakistan’s friendship with China always been taller than the tallest mountain, deeper than the deepest river and sweeter than honey?

That is because you have no clue about the Tug of war that has been happening between China and USA for Pakistan after the end of Cold War. Priorites Change, The Soviet Union is no more there.

And yet you continue?

I am easily enraged, heck, I enrolled in this forum, Because I couldnt see my favorite forum being run down conspiracy theory loving dodo's. I am happy to be lurker again, I am sure Jcage will also be doing the same.

Seems Putnanja hasn’t 'been reading this forum from quite a while' as well as you….

I have had enough ragging in my College in Coimby a decade and half ago. This is an open forum, Seniority goes for a toss in the internet.

[Kavu]

Kavu quite a few points are well put! (albeit a bit arrogantly)

But, jingos need to understand "Na baap bada na bhaiyya, beta sabse bada rupaiyya"
Whatever the US does or the Russians do....they do it in their own self interest

Some forumites here give a feeling that countries like the US and Russia or for that matter anyone, should bend over backwards to accomodate India otherwise they simply fall out of our favor. Why should they do that? While it makes sense to have a hugely diversified and peaceful democracy with a growing economy on their good side for various reasons, but it is mainly economical. And also the fact that niether the US nor Russia look at India as a direct threat...as China is to them now. Before China became what it is today both the uber powers have shared beds with her in their own way....again serving their national interest and no one else's. There was money to be made giving/selling technology to China and thats precisely what the Russian's did. Now, whether we we debate that its low quality, stolen technology or whatever, China still has an established MIC with international markets, unlike us poor Indians. I doubt Russia will sell any high-tech stuff to China because that will work against them now...and niether will the Chinese be dying to "buy" it from Russia.

The American's suddenly developed love for us because there is money to be made and we maybe in a position to counter the Chinese threat. Tomorrow if India really arrives on the world stage....with global aspirations. Then we will see if the Americans or the Russians will be willing to sell/share with us anything substantial. So, basically no point in whining over they do this or they do that...or they prop up Pakistan or they prop up China....and showing undying love towards the Russians (which is quite stark...I must mention among a few ) while dissing it to the Americans. We will get nowhere if we stick with this mentality, the need of the hour is to get the best that is available to us and learn to stand on our own feet. ("Guzurgon ne farmaya ke apne pairon pe khade ho ke dikhlao, phir yeh zamaana tumhara!" - AB in Namak Halaal)

I am sure this is offtopic, but wanted to put this here to cool down tempers and attempt to address undue biases in some posts. Mods, can move it ,if required

An excellent pragmatic post. Kudos!!

Ps: My Hindi is a bit rusty, can you muster up some Malayalam?

[putnanja]

I am easily enraged, heck, I enrolled in this forum, Because I couldnt see my favorite forum being run down conspiracy theory loving dodo's. I am happy to be lurker again, I am sure Jcage will also be doing the same.

yup, the great master has descended on us to guide us along his path and his vision, which is the only truth. The saviour of the forum is finally here!! All bow to the enlightened one

That is because you have no clue about the Tug of war that has been happening between China and USA for Pakistan after the end of Cold War.

[Kavu]

That is because you have no clue about the Tug of war that has been happening between China and USA for Pakistan after the end of Cold War.

And it goes without saying even I have not 'been reading this forum from quite a while' as well as you….

It shows quite evidently

[Carl_T]

I have had enough ragging in my College in Coimby a decade and half ago.

I think I spot some scar tissue here.

[putnanja]

Ajatashatru, he will easily get enraged at you now. Didn't you see his boast that he was easily enraged?? What a great thing to be proud of!!

[Gaur]

I am easily enraged

Then perhaps some time should also have been spent lurking outside a shrink's office?

Good one.

[Kavu]

I am easily enraged

Then perhaps some time should also have been spent lurking outside a shrink's office?

Added later: Trust me such threats would have no effect on members here....all statement(s) like this would do is invite mirth and ridicule from all and sundry....

Quite sad to see, that being an Indian you dont have the funny bone, It is hilarious that you find that as a threat, that too on the Internet. I do hope some senior members can pick up on my thoughts, and could contribute theirs. Where is the Rohitvats and NRao's when you need'em. Goodbye.

I think I spot some scar tissue here.

Ya, quite, I got suspended 3 times..lol

[Philip]

"Blind love for a country...?!" Not me sir indeed! I judge them on their merits.

Yes,there is an answer required about Russian sales of weaponry to China.Let's look back a bit.The Yeltsin years were v.bad for India.Lack of Soviet era spares hit us badly.That drunken lout was even worse for his country.It was during that time of extreme downturn in the Russian economy when it was so bad that thousands of Russian scientists migrated to anyone who would feed them.We missed the boat big time there,China didn't.They used these scientists to help them overcome the tech gap that existed.Russia did sell them Sov. DDGs,Kilos,Flankers and Sunburn missiles.They needed to keep their arms industry alive through exports.However,what they did not do was to give China everything.They kept back a lot.The Russian wariness of China will always exist.Read the writings of their analysts.What they have done is to give China inferior models of the same systems that they use so that in any spat they will be able to neutralise them easily.This is not the case with the Indo-Pak situ,where the US has always given Pak the advantage and we have tried to catch up (F-16s,Harpoons-incl.sub-Harpoons,AMRAAMs,P-3 Orions,etc.).In fact we have yet to get a major US weapon system superior to any that Pak has! I would say that more than any weapon system given to Pak,the US's turning a blind eye to Pak's nuclear weapons programme and the Sino-Pak nuclear nexus has been the most detrimental of any nation towards India.That it knew all along about Pak's proliferation has been documented in detail by US intel analysts and was deliberately ignored during the Cold War.The situ today is the same as was when Zia was in power and the Russians in Afghanistan.

Let's compare the Indo-Sino equation reg. Russian wares.We have the vastly superior Brahmos to China's Moskit/Sunburn.Our Russian subs too are generally known to have more advanced classified eqpt.than advertised in brochures. The Russian assistance in the ATV project cannot be underestimated or undervalued,suffice it to say that it would not have been possible without Russia's help.Equally important too is the lease of the Chakra earlier and the arriving Akula.Russia has not given China that kind of cooperation,though Russian naval experts have advised the PLAN on sub design.I posted last year a v.interesting comparison of the noise level of PLAN subs from US naval sources.It was illuminating reading and could indicate that the vital gap in PLAN sub tech has not been filled in by the Russians.
It is open news that the Russians are pi**ed off with illegal Chinese reverse engineering.Selling China an aero-engine for its new fighters makes China dependent upon Russia for any upgrade in the future.There is no military programme between Russia and China that is the equivalent of the B'Mos,5th-gen fighter and nuclear sub tech and lease of the Akula.Russia has not done that for any other country.The 5th-gen fighter,where Russia preferred India over China,will be solely between India and Russia and later on perhaps sold to mutually friendly countries whom both sides might wish to sell to-like B'Mos.
In comparison,the US is offering India nothing new at all.Both F-16 and F-18 are used by almost all US allies and sales of a few transport aircraft and one GE-404 engine that cannot even power the LCA properly are not force multipliers whatsoever! Moreover,if you read professional articles,the P-8 MRP aiircraft will contain nothing more than late what late model P-3 Orions have,which Pak already has in service! Pak dos not need a long range jet like the Boeing P-8 as its sphere of operations covers only the Gulf and Arabian Sea unlike India which has to operate even in the South China Sea.

It is therefore very easy to see in hindsight who our truer friend is.Not the one who is gifting Pak with more toys to fight India with,not the one who inisists upon ridiculous EUM clauses,not the one who wants no nuclear liability for its reactors,not the one who wants to cap India's strategic detterent while letting Pak continue to do so,not the one who is allowing Pak to continue its terror campaign against India and certainly not the one who is shielding and deal-making with triple agent Headley and who are bum-chums of the ISI!

[prabir]

This argument is strong and confirms that ties with Russia are not only commercial in nature. It is a real convergence of interests.

With US, there is no full convergence of interests. It is a dominant power in the world, so why should it want to see India as an equal partner ?

[johnny_m]

Counties do not have friends only interests. Our interests still converge more with that of Russia than that of U.S.

It may change in the future but till then Russia will be a more dependable partner.

One more thing, Russia being a banana democracy has more continuity in foreign policy than America, so whoever is the President it does not matter much, in the case of America things can go from really really good to really really cold every four years, look at Bush and Obama .

However I do believe that Indo-U.S relations have definitely gone past the stage where American weapons for our Armed forces compromised our security. Buy American when we need ready made stuff do a JV with the Russians or Israelis when we need to develop something new.

[nrshah]

Kavu quite a few points are well put! (albeit a bit arrogantly)

But, jingos need to understand "Na baap bada na bhaiyya, beta sabse bada rupaiyya"
Whatever the US does or the Russians do....they do it in their own self interest

Some forumites here give a feeling that countries like the US and Russia or for that matter anyone, should bend over backwards to accomodate India otherwise they simply fall out of our favor. Why should they do that? While it makes sense to have a hugely diversified and peaceful democracy with a growing economy on their good side for various reasons, but it is mainly economical. And also the fact that niether the US nor Russia look at India as a direct threat...as China is to them now. Before China became what it is today both the uber powers have shared beds with her in their own way....again serving their national interest and no one else's. There was money to be made giving/selling technology to China and thats precisely what the Russian's did. Now, whether we we debate that its low quality, stolen technology or whatever, China still has an established MIC with international markets, unlike us poor Indians. I doubt Russia will sell any high-tech stuff to China because that will work against them now...and niether will the Chinese be dying to "buy" it from Russia.

The American's suddenly developed love for us because there is money to be made and we maybe in a position to counter the Chinese threat. Tomorrow if India really arrives on the world stage....with global aspirations. Then we will see if the Americans or the Russians will be willing to sell/share with us anything substantial. So, basically no point in whining over they do this or they do that...or they prop up Pakistan or they prop up China....and showing undying love towards the Russians (which is quite stark...I must mention among a few ) while dissing it to the Americans. We will get nowhere if we stick with this mentality, the need of the hour is to get the best that is available to us and learn to stand on our own feet. ("Guzurgon ne farmaya ke apne pairon pe khade ho ke dikhlao, phir yeh zamaana tumhara!" - AB in Namak Halaal)

I am sure this is offtopic, but wanted to put this here to cool down tempers and attempt to address undue biases in some posts. Mods, can move it ,if required

Good post and practical too... In every relation there is some interest of both the parties...It can be even with our personal relations with family too..

Coming to post now, I give the following model to rate both the countries as our partners

we understand every one has vested interest and we also do have... forget the vested interest of Americans and Russians and just concentrate on vested interest of ours and answer the following question:

- Who do we think is willing to give us its cutting technology(dont narrow down to MMRCA but take it to Nuke Agreement with Russia vs America, 5th gen fighter, MTA, Nuke Submarines etc)?
- Who do we think is willing to include us as development partner in major projects?
- Who do we think is willing to help us develop our MIC by allowing us to contribute to whatever we we purchase? (MKI and its possibility on teens / offering us patriot when we are in advanced stage of testing a similar/better system)
- Who do we think is willing to give us freedom to use whatever we purchase in a way we want and against an enemy whom we want?
- Who do you think will help us in war against Pak (To my understanding we may have cold war with China but no actual war with them for chinese are not as stupid as pakis, they understand they wont achieve any political objective in a war with India even though they ultimately manage to defeat us)

There are many such question which i m not able to recall at this point of time (i am writing this in haste), Request other members to contribute whether they are in favor of Americans or russians. Please give each country a score of 1 if they are willing to do what is our need and a score of 0 if they cannot do.

A cumulative score will decide which country is better for us to partner with..

[Surya]

Surya wrote:
2. and what prevents us from making our F 16s a cut above the rest the MKI way.


EUMA

Sanku

Correct except like israel we should try and get an exception.

If on such a big deal on its last possible chance for an order we cannot do a hard bargain then we should not beplaying in the big boys club

[Carl_T]

There seems to be a latent assumption that the US and India are "natural allies" which appears to be the basis of a lot of the pro-US posts. Or it is because those posters are residing in the US! It would be great if someone could explain that POV.


I feel that Russia will be more comfortable dealing with India as relatively equal partner, unlike the US.

[SwarnaShikhari]

Bhai log

The puppeteer and I went to the paanwala – we were smiling ear to ear and he instinctively knew what we wanted - delicious paans with baba zarda and a double dose of meeta masala on the side.

Take it for what it is worth but the deal is done but India has to keep the show going for the aam aadme and the bird sellers

MiG-35 will finally walk away with the prize but hard bargain and iron clad guarantees are being worked out to clear out Gorshkov kind of crap.

Russia will collaborate with India on technology transfer more substantially (more importantly the design philosophy pertaining agility/maneuverability, radar, thrust vectoring, and system/sub-system integration) very closely to clear out the T-90 kind of crap. India wants to use this learning curve as stepping stones for MCA and beyond and also enhancing the performance characteristics of all its birds.

Technology wise, India seems satisfied with MiG-35 and its field performance, but more importantly given its open architecture is working out and exploring all kinds of MKI-zing possibilities and technology options have gained some skill in this direction from SU-30MKI, Jaguar Darin upgrades and Tejas development.

India wants birds fast, and Russia has some aces up its sleeves given the general observation that MiG has pretty much closed its shop. But MiG-29K has helped it regain its confidence, and substantial work is on the way in terms of line capacity, logistics, the works. In any case, the birds will only come from early-2013 onwards, but ramp from mid-2014 will be substantial. Meanwhile, Russia will supply 2 squadrons of super upgraded late version Mig-29s for India’s use till 2013 at a minimal cost <$400M as a stop-gap measure.

In the end the decision will be based on economics: None of the top 3 in the list will be able to satisfy the 126 birds for the $11B tag with all-in delivery is accounted for. Russia is going to be the lowest but the price will be $13B. The next two bidders are believed to be in the $17B and $20B, respectively when ABC (activity based costing) accounting is injected as a truth serum to get the real cost of the deal. So nominally, the deal will be announced as $11B, with the remaining accounted for as late stage upgrades.

Bottom line: Putin was told India was real pissed and he more than reached to India’s sensibilities, talked about historic relationship, future possibilities from defence to resource economics (was music to India given China’s aggressive shopping spree without concern for economic sense), and a firm promise to deliver. In the end both sides were quite happy.

The Amrikhan is/was being satisfied with P-8I, howitzers, C-130Js, Jalaswa. India will buy some 24-F-18 Growlers, couple of ships and possibly a 4 to 6 C-17s as a plain vanilla sale after the MRCA deal (within 2-year timeframe) to mollify them further. India has firmly decided that the khan is useful but not at all reliable, trustworthy, and has lots of nakras – so deal with him with all due courtesy but never based on trust.

France is being satisfied with Mirage-2000 upgrades despite the hefty price as a sop for Nuclear support all along, but will be compensated additionally via avionics/armaments options that will go into MiG-35, Tejas etc. But the message was driven home that Scorpene kind of crap will not be tolerated.

Europe being satisfied with all kinds of other mish mash like Augusta VIP helicopters, Eurojet EJ200 engine for Tejas, and other possibilities exist in the form howitzer deals. Also, further collaboration on Arjun/purchase of Augusta submarines from Germany are in being waved around.

Sweden does not count for much and had too many linkages with the khan, but may be thrown some sop via trade as a friendly gesture for their participation.

Fwiw get busy naming MiG-35 whatever you want – The MRCA deal is done and a toast has been raised with six people on each side. Bhai log, I rarely post so don't expect me to give hazaar explanations here. It is what it is.

[Carl_T]

Sweden does not count for much and had too many linkages with the khan, but may be thrown some sop via trade as a friendly gesture for their participation.

There is also possibly the Sea Gripen for the IN.

[johnny_m]

ACM SwarnaShikhari has spoken. You might as well close the thread Rahul now that we know MiG 35 is the winner.

[mahesh Sankar]

Saab Gripen (Gryphon)
Low-cost, low maintenance multi-role 4th generation fighter jet

Length: 14.1 m

Span: 8.4 m

Height: 4.5 m

Empty weight: 5700 kg

Normal take off weight: 8500 kg in fighter configuration

Payload: 5300 kg

Fuel, internal: 3000 litres approx

External: 3800 litres

Max take off weight: 14000 kg

Range: 3000 km ferry range

Max speed: M 1.15 (1400 km/h) at sea level, close to Mach 2 at altitude

Acceleration: M 0.5 to M 1.1 at low altitude in 30 s

Turn performance: 9 G sustained, G onset rate at least 6 G/s (1-9 G in 1.2 s), min -3 G, 20+ deg/s sustained, 30 deg/s instantaneous

Climb rate: <100 s from brake release to 10 km altitude 180 s approx to 14 km

Ground turn around: <10 min with a crew of six
Engine: Volvo Aero RM12 (developed from GE F404 with the changes being at least new fan, afterburner flame holder and accessories, partly to make it more suitable to a single engine aircraft)
Max thrust: approx 54 kN, 80.5 kN with reheat, airflow 68 kg/s, compression ratio 27.5:1, mass 1055 kg, overall length 4.04 m, diameter 0.884 m, inlet diameter 0.709 m

Radar: Ericsson PS-05/A pulse doppler radar (can count anchored ships and follow road traffic at at least 90 km and detect typical fighter sized targets at 120 km).

Total mass 156 kg, antenna assembly 25 kg, antenna diameter 0.600 m,
Max power consumption 8.2 kW (114/200V 400Hz AC) and 250 kW 28V.

Predicted MTBF: 170 hours (air operation) Cooling air: 85g/s at 0oC, Cooling liquid: 3.5kW to be absored. Electrical interface: MIL-STD-1553B data bus and fibre optic video output to the display system.

Air to air scanning at 60 (at first 50) deg/s in either 2 120 deg bars, 2 60 deg bars or 4 30 deg bars. Surface mapping and search across 5 x 5 km to 40 x 40 km with GMTI speed adjustable by the pilot.

Four basic air to air modes: Track While Search, Priority Target Tracking gives higher quality tracking for multiple targets, Single Target Track gives highest quality data, Air Combat Mode for short range search and automatic target capture.

Targeting pod: Litening, with FLIR and laser designation.

The Gripen's built-in armament consists of a single Mauser BK-27 27 millimeter cannon, housed in a fairing on the aircraft's belly, offset to left to the rear of the engine intake. Given the aircraft's relatively small size, it generally carries guided weapons to ensure maximum combat effectiveness.

Possible external stores include:
Air to air missiles (AAMs). The primary AAM is the Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM, and the Gripen's PS-05A radar can guide four of these weapons simultaneously. Sweden is the only nation approved by the US to perform flight tests of AMRAAM, and Swedish AMRAAMs have minor modifications to fit Swedish specifications. Other possible AAM stores include the French Matra Mica; the British Aerospace Sky Flash, built in Sweden as the "Rb-71"; and the Anglo-French MBDA ramjet-powered Meteor BVRAAM or German BGT IRIS-T AAM, now in development. IRIS-T is a short-range heat-seeking AAM with "off-boresight" capability. The Flygvapnet intends to obtain the IRIS-T to replace Swedish-built Sidewinders.

Antiship missiles, such as the SAAB RBS-15 turbojet-powered sea-skimming missile. A precision land-attack version of the RBS-15 is now in development.

Air to surface missiles, such as the Raytheon AGM-65 Maverick, built in Sweden as the "Rb-75", as well as the "BK (BombKapsel) 90 Mjoelnir" guided gliding submunitions dispenser, also known as "DWS-39". The Mjoelnir was developed by Daimler-Benz Aerospace (now part of EADS), with the Gripen as the first intended flight platform. Of course, dumb bombs and unguided rocket pods have been qualified as well.
The aircraft is controlled by a digital fly-by-wire (FBW) system with triple redundancy and an analog backup. The analog backup system provides a simple, reliable capability, and is automatically activated if two of the three digital FBW systems go down. The pilot can also activate the analog system with the push of a button. The Gripen was designed from the outset to use the FBW system, which was evaluated on a modified Viggen. The FBW system compensates automatically for the degree of instability built into the Gripen to increase its maneuverability. The FBW system also allows the aircraft to adapt to combat damage, for example using differential control of the canards to fly the aircraft if the ailerons are disabled.

The Gripen pilot can switch operational role in flight.

One Gripen can provide radar sensing for four of its colleagues, allowing a single fighter to track a target, while the others use the data for a stealthy attack. TIDLS also permits multiple fighters to quickly and accurately lock onto a target's track through triangulation from several radars; or allows one fighter to jam a target while another tracks it; or allows multiple fighters to use different radar frequencies collaboratively to "burn through" jamming transmissions. TIDLS also gives the Gripen transparent access to the SAAB-Ericsson 340B Erieye "mini-AWACs" aircraft, as well as the overall ground command and control system. This system provides Sweden with an impressive defensive capability at a cost that, though still high, is less than that of comparable systems elsewhere.

The Gripen can take off and land in less than 600 meters (2,000 feet). Once deployed to a road base, the Gripens are serviced by a ground crew of six, including one highly trained specialist and five minimally trained conscripts. A service team can refuel and rearm a Gripen in ten minutes. The Gripen features an auxiliary power unit (APU) to reduce its dependence on ground systems, and the fighter's onboard digital systems include "built-in self-test" capabilities that can download diagnostic data to a tech's laptop computer. Service doors to critical systems are at head level or lower, allowing easy access by technicians. Pilots using the Gripen flight simulators have performed simulated carrier landings, without an arresting hook; it seems a bit unlikely that this will ever be done in practice, however.

The operational cost of Gripen is 50 per cent lower than any other aircraft in its class that is currently, or planned to be, in service. It is twice as reliable and easier to maintain than its competitors.

Features under development for future Gripens include:
An electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar based on the PS-05/A, now being developed by Ericsson. An AESA consists of an array of programmable "transmit-receive (TR)" modules that can operate in parallel to perform separate or collaborative functions, performing, for example, jamming and target acquisition at the same time. The AESA will provide enhanced multimode capabilities, as well as extended range for beyond visual range missiles. It is scheduled for introduction in the 2005:2010 timeframe.

Improved defensive countermeasures, including new towed decoys and missile and laser warning systems.

The "OTIS" infrared search and track (IRST) system now under development by Saab Dynamics and being tested on a Viggen. OTIS will provide multiple modes for both air to air and air to ground combat.

The Thales "Guardian" helmet-mounted display (HMT), now being evaluated on the Gripen for cueing the IRIS-T and other smart weapons.
The Gripen's digital architecture makes software upgrades straightforward, at least as such things go. Possible software improvements include new radar and datalink modes; a new terrain-referenced navigation system; and a fully autonomous precision landing-guidance system. In the long term, SAAB is looking at a new engine, such as the General Electric F414 or a thrust-vectoring version of the EJ2000 engine used on the Eurofighter; conformal fuel tanks or a fuselage stretch for greater range; a wide-angle HUD; a binocular helmet-mounted display; a direct voice-command system; and an advanced missions support system.

Currently, only the SWAF has the Gripen in active service but during 2005 South Africa, the Czech Republic and Hungary will take 21, 14 and 14 Gripen into service. Hungary and the Czech Republic will get fully NATO-adapted Gripens.

these specifications are impressive..............[/b]