MRCA News and Discussion

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NRao
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 15 Apr 2010 04:54

putnanja wrote:I doubt that we will manufacture everything 100% in India regardless of which aircraft we buy. Probably around 20-30% of the stuff will still be imported and assembled, especially related to avionics , FCS etc. I even doubt whether we will manufacture the engines 100% in india


Very true. However, since India is computing the cost based on "life cycle" cost, such events (line closings) should be accounted for. Perhaps a best and worst case "life cycle" cost would capture such variances.

Bottom line: "life cycle" cost.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 15 Apr 2010 09:00


kit
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby kit » 15 Apr 2010 11:35

I doubt any country would build any weapon system completely especially those in quantity by itself., some parts are bound to be built elsewhere., except for the real strategic systems.It is usually not economical to build everything yourself !

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 15 Apr 2010 14:44

HAL's award,"sweetening the MMRCA deal?!" No seriously,HAL has been performing very well and has a massive order book in hand.Gratters HAL.How it is going to be able to handle the huge workload of both eastern and western aircraft and component exports remains to be seen.If I'm not mistaken,last year or the year before,AWST lauded BEL for its performance too.Aerospace is the sunshine industry in India right now and will be for decades.Having seen every air show held thus far,one is amazed at how rapidly the industry in India has expanded,both military and civilian.There was a news item about the huge shortfall in aerospace engineers,and aeronautical engineering is perhaps the most underfunded course in Indian colleges and universities.There is a huge body of veterans from the IAF and industry available to assist these courses.The GOI/AICTE should encourage this course with much more vigour.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby mmasand » 15 Apr 2010 15:19

Would it be fair to say on non-technical grounds that the F-16's were out of contention given the strain in political relations with uncle..?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 15 Apr 2010 22:05

Kartik wrote:HAL is the winner of the Boeing Supplier of the Year award for the category "Alliance Award"

Boeing Names 14 Companies 2009 Suppliers of the Year SEATTLE, April 13 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ --

The Boeing Company (NYSE: BA) tonight honored 14 companies as winners of its 2009 Supplier of the Year award.

The winners, chosen from among the company's more than 12,000 active suppliers worldwide, are located in Germany, India, Japan and the United States. They were judged on quality, delivery performance, cost, environmental initiatives, customer service and technical expertise.
Four are small businesses as defined by the U.S. government.

The winners, and the categories, are:

AZX International Corp. (Huntington Beach, Calif.) – Aerospace support
Bridgestone Corp. (Fukuoka Prefecture, Japan) – Electro, hydraulic and mechanical standards
Cytec Engineered Materials Inc. (Greenville, Texas) – Common aerospace commodities
Deharde-Maschinenbau H. Hoffmann GmbH (Varel, Germany) – International
Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University (Daytona Beach, Fla.) – Academia
Frontier Electronics Systems Corp. (Stillwater, Okla.) – Avionics
GE Commercial Engine Operations (Evendale, Ohio) – Propulsion
GM Nameplate Inc. (Seattle) – Interiors
Hamilton Sundstrand, Electric Systems – 787 Team (Rockford, Ill.) – The Pathfinder Award, a new award recognizing outstanding efforts and significant strides in performance
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (Bangalore, India) – The Alliance Award, a new award recognizing unique capabilities and services that are instrumental to a new Boeing product



Excellent Pubic Relations



K

PS Axecuse mai spallin mistaks. i poooor in Inglis

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shatack » 15 Apr 2010 22:20

Viv S wrote:
Gaur wrote:The Austrian Eurofighter site states that Typhoon can supercruise at 1.5 mach. Considering that no payload info is given, I assume this figure is for a clean Typhoon. Even so, we can safely assume that for a typical air-air loadout, Typhoon will be able to supercruise. Now the question is its ability to perform a sustained supercruise. If it can sustain supercruise for a decent amount of time (which is?), then I consider it a good advantage for it.
Also, even IMO, Typhoon is somewhat lacking in a2g domain (while superb in air-air role). This is why I am personally not the strongest supporter of Eurofighter. However, in future tranches, this limitation will be rectified.


How's it lacking in the air-to-ground domain?

I am not too sure about this though I hope that sense prevails and MRCA does not go to US. Also, US angle aside, I am not the biggest supporter of SH. It is an excellent a2g platform but as far as a2a role is concerned, there is much left to be desired. It is supposed to have good low speed maneuverability, but if the whole flight envelope is considered, it does not have the best reputation as an agile fighter.


In terms of radar, RCS and cost-effective munitions, the SH has a clear advantage. Also in terms of delivery times and customer support the American have an excellent(er) record.

I think it will come between the Rafale and the Gripen.


I think it will come down to EF and SH... but I guess we all have our favourites. :)



Well the bribed austrian advanture seems to be very difficult these times...

A fighter jet was damaged during landing yesterday (Weds) as the runway was slippery after a heavy rainfall.

Officials at the army base in Zeltweg, Styria, said today the Eurofighter pilot had to use the jet’s parachute to create a braking effect. Its bottom panel and engine were damaged in the landing procedure, they added.

Austrian army chiefs and Social Democratic (SPÖ) Defence Minister Norbert Darabos have come under fire as opposition critics claimed most of the country’s 15 fighter jets were unready for usage most of the time due to various technical problems.


hope they can get them out of the hangars , so supercruising to Mach 1.5, uhmmm.

http://austrianindependent.com/news/Gen ... ng_landing

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Brahmananda » 15 Apr 2010 22:29

this comes as a shock, i expected the EF to have a good operational record but what technical problems could it have?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby MarcH » 15 Apr 2010 22:43

Austria is a special case. The Austrian secretary of defence (and sports ) is a pacifist doing his best to ruin the armed forces. He reduced the Typhoon order from 18 to 15 airframes just for the sake of reducing it.
By that, he "saved" 200 million €. Well, in reality he payed a heavy price for this political gesture. No free T2 upgrade for the whole fleet, instead downgrade of the whole fleet to T1 standard, some of the most worn out German airframes instead of newbuild, spare parts for several years stricken from the procurement list, and so on.
Well, now there is a parliamentary probe to find out if his actions where in the best interest of the Austrian taxpayer. :rotfl:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shatack » 15 Apr 2010 22:45

Brahmananda wrote:this comes as a shock, i expected the EF to have a good operational record but what technical problems could it have?


this is the problem when you make a patchwork plane, it's not reacting good to design board and feedbacks, so now that 4 partners buried the problem with tranche 3A, no further need, so about TVC AESA etc.. its all good for comercial adds, nothing will be budgeted further from these countries already struggling to buy 90's variant planes, Uk is selling thiers to saudies, and german are questioning about tranche 3A delivery shuddle some billions are missing to fulfill the defence budget!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 15 Apr 2010 22:48

Philip wrote:HAL's award,"sweetening the MMRCA deal?!"


HAL doing well as a supplier has nothing to do with the MRCA contest. Note that this was on Boeing's web page (where this is routine news, happens every year) not on Times of India or Indian Express. Neither is it PR as someone else suggested. Boeing gives these awards every year and its based on solid on-time performance and exceeding expectations, nothing else.

To suggest otherwise is so Indian isn't it ? HAL is a PSU so if they get an award one has to suggest that its because "its a sweetener" and if they do badly, then of course that was expected, after all they're an incompetent PSU.

I wonder if anyone would have had the temerity to suggest such a ridiculous thing if L&T or Tatas had been given this award. Then everyone and their mothers would be singing about how the private sector should be involved more in defence production.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Viv S » 16 Apr 2010 02:29

Shatack wrote:
Brahmananda wrote:this comes as a shock, i expected the EF to have a good operational record but what technical problems could it have?


this is the problem when you make a patchwork plane, it's not reacting good to design board and feedbacks, so now that 4 partners buried the problem with tranche 3A, no further need, so about TVC AESA etc.. its all good for comercial adds, nothing will be budgeted further from these countries already struggling to buy 90's variant planes, Uk is selling thiers to saudies, and german are questioning about tranche 3A delivery shuddle some billions are missing to fulfill the defence budget!


The RAF and Luftwaffe's operational experience with the Typhoon has been extremely positive. And the sale of Typhoons to the Saudis is due to major cuts in defence spending across the board in the UK, not because the aircraft was found deficient.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 16 Apr 2010 07:26

Sweden urges Romania to buy Gripen fighter jets
Details of the proposed deal were not released, but Romanian media said the government would pay euro1 billion ($1.3 billion) for 24 secondhand F-16s. Authorities cited financial reasons to choose the F-16s to modernize Romania's army.

On Thursday, Swedish government official Jerry Lindbergh said in Romania that the country could buy 24 new Gripen fighters for the same price. He said the Gripen purchase could be paid over 15 years at a low interest rate.

If we still end up buying the F-16 INs after this, God help us!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Apr 2010 08:02

Some new information on Mig-35
http://paralay.com/mig35.html

Image
Image

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nachiket » 16 Apr 2010 08:11

^^That's the 11 HP version. I couldn't find any pics of it. Doubt if it actually exists. Considering the very public announcement by the IAF regarding giving the Gripen another chance to let them test the "real" thing (NG), if the 11 HP version was really on the cards I guess the IAF would have wanted to test it as well. But there has been no noise from that quarter. That leads me to believe the the Mig-35 we might be getting would be the nine HP version which is basically a Mig-29K with no folding wings and an AESA radar.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 16 Apr 2010 08:50

If we still end up buying the F-16 INs after this, God help us!


Financially that is true. Technically .... give some, take some. Politically ..................

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby sunnyv » 16 Apr 2010 16:37

nachiket wrote:^^That's the 11 HP version. I couldn't find any pics of it. Doubt if it actually exists. Considering the very public announcement by the IAF regarding giving the Gripen another chance to let them test the "real" thing (NG), if the 11 HP version was really on the cards I guess the IAF would have wanted to test it as well. But there has been no noise from that quarter. That leads me to believe the the Mig-35 we might be getting would be the nine HP version which is basically a Mig-29K with no folding wings and an AESA radar.


Just a bit OT, But is IRST ( esp OLS-A2A mode) on MIG-29k same as offered on Mig-35.
Or the one on Mig35 is newer with new FLIR and TV , and how does it stand in comparison to OLS-35 onboard SU-35BM
Thnx

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shatack » 16 Apr 2010 17:55

Viv S wrote:
The RAF and Luftwaffe's operational experience with the Typhoon has been extremely positive. And the sale of Typhoons to the Saudis is due to major cuts in defence spending across the board in the UK, not because the aircraft was found deficient.


Operational experience? sheep watching in falklands?

if the typhoon wasn't that bad, why UK doesn't scrap on the worny F35? italy? supposed that typhoon is only second to none exept F22 in 21th century fighters contest as comercials claims! RAF AoA typhoon met against AoG squadron of rafale two times, summer 2008, Solenzara exercises, 8.1 for the "striking squdron" and UAE contest "Al darfha" DACT , yet 7.1 for a degraded AoG French squadron.. as reported in AFM, losing 15.2 in two years against such low powered rafale and obsolecent radar RBE2! can't wait to see the first AoA French squadron operational, what a butchery ! Mein Gotten..

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 16 Apr 2010 18:19

Shatack wrote:Operational experience? sheep watching in falklands?

:lol: I hereby predict a big flame war.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 16 Apr 2010 18:25

Desperate times for the Gripen..maybe we can take advantage..

Saab offers cut price fighter jets to Romania

He said Sweden could provide 24 new "fully NATO interoperable Gripen C/D fighters, including training, support, logistics and 100 percent offset for the amount of one billion euros (1.3 billion dollars)." The money could be paid over 15 years with low interest rates.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Henrik » 16 Apr 2010 18:29

Shatack wrote:
Viv S wrote:
The RAF and Luftwaffe's operational experience with the Typhoon has been extremely positive. And the sale of Typhoons to the Saudis is due to major cuts in defence spending across the board in the UK, not because the aircraft was found deficient.


Operational experience? sheep watching in falklands?

if the typhoon wasn't that bad, why UK doesn't scrap on the worny F35? italy? supposed that typhoon is only second to none exept F22 in 21th century fighters contest as comercials claims! RAF AoA typhoon met against AoG squadron of rafale two times, summer 2008, Solenzara exercises, 8.1 for the "striking squdron" and UAE contest "Al darfha" DACT , yet 7.1 for a degraded AoG French squadron.. as reported in AFM, losing 15.2 in two years against such low powered rafale and obsolecent radar RBE2! can't wait to see the first AoA French squadron operational, what a butchery ! Mein Gotten..

I don't think you know how wrong you are.. :eek:

Britain and Italy getting the F-35B has nothing to do with the EF being a bad plane. They will be using the F-35Bs for their STOL aircraft carriers to replace the Harriers! They are not stupid you know, if they were they would be buying Rafales and trying to convert them.

Btw, what operational experience do the Rafale have exept dropping a few bombs on some sorry talibans? Baguette and cheesewatching in France? Looking good on the ground with all that enginemaintenance?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Viv S » 16 Apr 2010 19:39

Shatack wrote:
Viv S wrote:
The RAF and Luftwaffe's operational experience with the Typhoon has been extremely positive. And the sale of Typhoons to the Saudis is due to major cuts in defence spending across the board in the UK, not because the aircraft was found deficient.


Operational experience? sheep watching in falklands?


You're confusing operational experience with combat experience.

if the typhoon wasn't that bad, why UK doesn't scrap on the worny F35? italy? supposed that typhoon is only second to none exept F22 in 21th century fighters contest as comercials claims!


The MKI isn't bad either, why doesn't the IAF scrap the MMRCA and FGFA? When the Su-33 wasn't bad, why didn't the Russians cancel the MiG-29K? Hell the F-15 wasn't bad, why didn't the US cancel the LWF program(F-16)?

RAF AoA typhoon met against AoG squadron of rafale two times, summer 2008, Solenzara exercises, 8.1 for the "striking squdron" and UAE contest "Al darfha" DACT , yet 7.1 for a degraded AoG French squadron.. as reported in AFM, losing 15.2 in two years against such low powered rafale and obsolecent radar RBE2! can't wait to see the first AoA French squadron operational, what a butchery ! Mein Gotten..


The IAF's MKIs had their clocks cleaned at Red Flag too.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 16 Apr 2010 20:28

Dmurphy wrote:Sweden urges Romania to buy Gripen fighter jets
Details of the proposed deal were not released, but Romanian media said the government would pay euro1 billion ($1.3 billion) for 24 secondhand F-16s. Authorities cited financial reasons to choose the F-16s to modernize Romania's army.

On Thursday, Swedish government official Jerry Lindbergh said in Romania that the country could buy 24 new Gripen fighters for the same price. He said the Gripen purchase could be paid over 15 years at a low interest rate.

If we still end up buying the F-16 INs after this, God help us!



CAN WE BUY SAAB ??????

Sounds preposterous but if we can buy out the company we can solve a lot of our problems. We should form JV with HAL and some other private companies and get management control of SAAB. Then different Indian cos. can start having JVs or even outright purchase of some of their suppliers.

Kersi

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Viv S » 16 Apr 2010 20:37

Kersi D wrote:CAN WE BUY SAAB ??????

Sounds preposterous but if we can buy out the company we can solve a lot of our problems. We should form JV with HAL and some other private companies and get management control of SAAB. Then different Indian cos. can start having JVs or even outright purchase of some of their suppliers.

Kersi


Though most of SAAB's equity is held by investment firms, a buyout is unlikely. IMHO if we were ever to venture down such a path, the most likely candidate would be Mikoyan unless its been completely assimilated and merged with Sukhoi under the UAC. In either case, there'll be a host of problems with regard to ToT clearances even after the takeover.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Henrik » 16 Apr 2010 20:59

Kersi D wrote:CAN WE BUY SAAB ??????

Sounds preposterous but if we can buy out the company we can solve a lot of our problems. We should form JV with HAL and some other private companies and get management control of SAAB. Then different Indian cos. can start having JVs or even outright purchase of some of their suppliers.

Kersi

Don't need to. By choosing Gripen a lot of tech, "know-how" and "know-why" will be transferred to India that could be implemented in the Tejas fighter. Gripen NG would probably be co-developed in a similar way as the proposal for Brazil (if SAAB looses in Brazil of course), probably in some less extent though since Gripen NG would be more developed by the time India makes up it's mind about MMRCA.

Some people says Gripen is too similar to Tejas, and that India should choose something else. I would see it the other way around, Tejas can only get better with Gripen IN and provide a solid base from which India then could develop an even more advanced fighter. A true independent country with superpower ambitions should persue an indigenously developed and produced fighterplane. Sometimes however, a push in the right direction and some outside help along the way is needed to avoid serious delays and cost overruns.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Henrik » 16 Apr 2010 21:04

shukla wrote:Desperate times for the Gripen..maybe we can take advantage..

Saab offers cut price fighter jets to Romania

He said Sweden could provide 24 new "fully NATO interoperable Gripen C/D fighters, including training, support, logistics and 100 percent offset for the amount of one billion euros (1.3 billion dollars)." The money could be paid over 15 years with low interest rates.


I wouldn't call it desperate, more like "smart".
This is from a post by "Signatory" on "militartphotos.net" on the subject.

It's not Saab offering these fighters it's FMV, the Swedish state. And these are not 100% new despite what salesmen might say.

We (Sweden) pay about 15 million USD for them, it's new 39C airframes with already paid for components from the barely used A/B-fleet. Like the engine, radar, rescue system.

It's reverse to what the Americans offer. They offer second hand airframes with new components, Sweden offers new 8000h airframes with second hand components. (plus the new C/D specific bits like refueling probe, displays)

And Saab is not going away soon, they have a commitment from the Swedish state to support Gripen into 2040s. This is about trying to keep more workers employed between new versions.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Katare » 16 Apr 2010 21:41

Well I thought I was so clear on what IAF should buy as its MRCA but now you guys have me confused :mrgreen:

I am game for anything except for Mig35 and Gripen.........

One of them is too small and the other one is too Russian :mrgreen:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 16 Apr 2010 22:59

Henrik wrote:I wouldn't call it desperate, more like "smart".
This is from a post by "Signatory" on "militartphotos.net" on the subject.

"It's not Saab offering these fighters it's FMV, the Swedish state. And these are not 100% new despite what salesmen might say.

We (Sweden) pay about 15 million USD for them, it's new 39C airframes with already paid for components from the barely used A/B-fleet. Like the engine, radar, rescue system.

It's reverse to what the Americans offer. They offer second hand airframes with new components, Sweden offers new 8000h airframes with second hand components. (plus the new C/D specific bits like refueling probe, displays)

And Saab is not going away soon, they have a commitment from the Swedish state to support Gripen into 2040s. This is about trying to keep more workers employed between new versions."


It is an excellent offer for Romania, but they seem to have made up their mind that they want to become US poodles and so they're willing to go with the refurbished airframes with less than 3000 hours on them left.

And to think that Romanians harbour ambitions of buying F-35s ! Talk about stupidity..they can't afford anything more than second-hand F-16s, and yet they want to in the future, buy 24 brand new F-16 Block 50s and then 24 F-35 fighters that will cost more than a $100 million a piece and require a huge infrastructural setup as those stealth jets are not easy to maintain..and all for what ? As if Romania is facing up to China or Russia and a fleet of 24 F-35s will change any equation. All they'll end up doing is contributing 4-5 to US adventures in other parts of the world. And in return, the US will pat them on their heads saying "Good boy".

Its a moronic decision to buy those second-hand F-16s without doing a proper evaluation of what else is available to them in their budget, and I'm afraid they've been fooled completely by the Americans.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby kit » 16 Apr 2010 23:28

American marketing is second to none .. So expect more nations willing to be poodles !

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Henrik » 17 Apr 2010 01:46

Kartik wrote:
Henrik wrote:I wouldn't call it desperate, more like "smart".
This is from a post by "Signatory" on "militartphotos.net" on the subject.

"It's not Saab offering these fighters it's FMV, the Swedish state. And these are not 100% new despite what salesmen might say.

We (Sweden) pay about 15 million USD for them, it's new 39C airframes with already paid for components from the barely used A/B-fleet. Like the engine, radar, rescue system.

It's reverse to what the Americans offer. They offer second hand airframes with new components, Sweden offers new 8000h airframes with second hand components. (plus the new C/D specific bits like refueling probe, displays)

And Saab is not going away soon, they have a commitment from the Swedish state to support Gripen into 2040s. This is about trying to keep more workers employed between new versions."


It is an excellent offer for Romania, but they seem to have made up their mind that they want to become US poodles and so they're willing to go with the refurbished airframes with less than 3000 hours on them left.

And to think that Romanians harbour ambitions of buying F-35s ! Talk about stupidity..they can't afford anything more than second-hand F-16s, and yet they want to in the future, buy 24 brand new F-16 Block 50s and then 24 F-35 fighters that will cost more than a $100 million a piece and require a huge infrastructural setup as those stealth jets are not easy to maintain..and all for what ? As if Romania is facing up to China or Russia and a fleet of 24 F-35s will change any equation. All they'll end up doing is contributing 4-5 to US adventures in other parts of the world. And in return, the US will pat them on their heads saying "Good boy".

Its a moronic decision to buy those second-hand F-16s without doing a proper evaluation of what else is available to them in their budget, and I'm afraid they've been fooled completely by the Americans.


I know it's stupid. What is even more stupid is that they really wouldn't afford F-35s, and that the US probably will forbid them from doing anything else than to fly them. I mean even the U.K won't get their hands on the source codes, so one could figure that the Romanians won't be allowed to touch one screw on the plane.
But, if you want to be Uncle Sam's lap-dog, sure..

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 17 Apr 2010 04:51

Carl_T wrote:
Gaur wrote:I agree. I do not understand how we could afford Eurofighter and Rafale. So,though I am a bit partial towards Rafale (though it could do with more powerful engines), I would not bet too much on it winning the MRCA. I would also like Mig-35 to win (if schedules could somehow become acceptable and Russians would not screw us up on TOT issue). I am also a great fan of gripen and would be really happy if it wins.

Cant say about that. Considering the nil export figure of Rafale and the magnitude of the order, I would not be too surprised if French do not have a problem with TOT. At least, the Dassault representatives Aero India were very assuring regarding this.
Yes, I suppose that is true since the French might be desperate with this.

As things stand, tHere are 3 options imho (
option 3 is only if the budget increases): [/quote]

At $ 10.5 - 11 billion
1) IAF buys either 126 GripenNGs OR MiG-35s or possibly (lower chances), F-16IN.

IF they decide to split the order, for the sake of logistics, the 35 becomes a shoe in, thus:
2) IAF gets 60 odd MiG-35s and 50 odd uber Rafale/Tiffy/God help us, the Bug!

IF they decide to increase the budget,

3) 126 of the uber twin engined birds could be bought - depending upon the amount of increase.

CM

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 17 Apr 2010 04:55

Kartik wrote:
Kavu wrote:Vishal,

It is just you, lol. The cone size is the same, the cone is only painted half way down, which is why at a glance it looks different!


There is a slightly different explanation for that. The nose cone is not "painted half way down". its the radome. And the radome being electromagnetically transparent, the difference in those two radome sizes indicates the size of the antenna. In the earlier one, the radome was smaller because the radar antenna was smaller, accommodating 600 or so T/R modules. The new radome size indicates that either there is a concrete block (ballast) to simulate that radar's weight or else that they've used the full size Zhuk-AE radome (1024 T/R modules) because the antenna (and the corresponding radome) have been pushed further back. or else it simply has a Zhuk-ME. can't say for sure which one it has on-board though (one clue may be that most AESA equipped aircraft have their pitot tubes removed from the radome.

Kartik,
The 35 with a 680TRM array too had a pitot tube. But I daresay, increasingly the bigger radome seems to be a 1064TRM zhuk to me. It would also confirm one of Pibu's reports, which imho is probly some of the best reporting in russki matters.

CM

Cain Marko
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 17 Apr 2010 08:25

Possible new build MiG-35? Note the lack of arrestor hook (as in the K) -

Photo credits to Mack 8 @ keypubs.

CM.
Image

Austin
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 17 Apr 2010 08:40

^^^ I wont believe unless I see 5 HP under each wings with the matching weapons :)

Cain Marko
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 17 Apr 2010 08:48

Austin wrote:^^^ I wont believe unless I see 5 HP under each wings with the matching weapons :)


Ever the skeptic. But while I do think it might very well be a proto dedicated to the 35; I have a feeling that it'll still get 9 Hps total. We'll see. Any way, 9hps should offer pretty decent loadouts - 2 X Klub + 2 X Kh 31 + 2 X R77 + 2 X R73 + 2000 ltr centerline EFT would be rather nice.

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Brahmananda
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Brahmananda » 17 Apr 2010 12:19

The MRCA will go to the US, its a certainty, the Super Bug will win this fair and square, with delays in LCA, they'll want quick deliveries and the all round capability of the SH puts it in the best position to win. US will also give full-TOT, radar source code customization etc. They spend billions in developing those source codes you expect them to just easily hand them over. UK is getting source codes for the f-35, so your info is wrong, check link below. Israel was given access to the source codes of the f-15 and f-16 only after the development was completed.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article1865.html

General Snir is not concerned about the lack of access, noting that Israel was only given access to the F-16 and F-15 computer source code after development was completed and that it has already been agreed that IAF F-35 aircraft would include Isreali communications, electronic counter measures, and compatibility with missiles made by Rafael Armament Development. Access to the F-35 source code was only recently given to Great Britain which is not only one of the United States' strongest allies, but also has over $2 Billion invested in the project compared to $35 Million invested by Israel.

There is a strong will to win this deal in India, they will offer full-tot and even source codes, they're just waiting to shock the rest of competition and it will be a last minute developement which will put the US vendors at the top.

If Israel and UK have been given source codes for some of their aircraft, we too will get it. Just wait and watch. Timing is everything and winning such a big deal will depend on timing, other suppliers have been ranting about full-tot since the beggining and there has been so much talk about US unwillingness. These are shock tactics, make the other contenders feel like they have a better chance and get over-confident in their product and offer but then US pulls out the big gun right towards the end and bham, its takes it home. Business is all about timing and none of the other suppliers are as good in understanding business than the US.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 17 Apr 2010 12:44

Cain Marko wrote:Ever the skeptic. But while I do think it might very well be a proto dedicated to the 35; I have a feeling that it'll still get 9 Hps total. We'll see. Any way, 9hps should offer pretty decent loadouts - 2 X Klub + 2 X Kh 31 + 2 X R77 + 2 X R73 + 2000 ltr centerline EFT would be rather nice.

CM.



You add 2 x R-73 to the above with 10 HP :lol:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shatack » 17 Apr 2010 14:01

Henrik wrote:
Viv S wrote:Operational experience? sheep watching in falklands?

if the typhoon wasn't that bad, why UK doesn't scrap on the worny F35? italy? supposed that typhoon is only second to none exept F22 in 21th century fighters contest as comercials claims! RAF AoA typhoon met against AoG squadron of rafale two times, summer 2008, Solenzara exercises, 8.1 for the "striking squdron" and UAE contest "Al darfha" DACT , yet 7.1 for a degraded AoG French squadron.. as reported in AFM, losing 15.2 in two years against such low powered rafale and obsolecent radar RBE2! can't wait to see the first AoA French squadron operational, what a butchery ! Mein Gotten..
I don't think you know how wrong you are.. :eek:

Britain and Italy getting the F-35B has nothing to do with the EF being a bad plane. They will be using the F-35Bs for their STOL aircraft carriers to replace the Harriers! They are not stupid you know, if they were they would be buying Rafales and trying to convert them.

Btw, what operational experience do the Rafale have exept dropping a few bombs on some sorry talibans? Baguette and cheesewatching in France? Looking good on the ground with all that enginemaintenance?[/color]


aircraft carrier kicking ass of taliban and typhoon each exercise seems to me a good operational experience!

http://www.aereo.jor.br/wp-content/uplo ... afale1.JPG

Uk and Italy are cutting 2/3 of T3 with no real upgrade on their own "final" product, UK sells even thiers to Saudies, and they don't get the rid of F35B who is as costly as typhoon, and less capable on the paper! countries that doesn't support their own design phylosophy looks suspect!
it seems you are asking yourself wrong questions!

"The Eurofighter project is a disaster of unknown cost, since the MoD ceased releasing figures once they passed £20bn. Only four Typhoons (as the plane has been rebranded) have ever been deployed outside Britain: to the Falklands, where they safeguard sheep and penguins. That is about all they are good for, since they were designed three decades ago to fight the Soviets."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... wrong-wars

Cheap gripens?

seems the Uk is getting rid of tranche 3A in nice price deal with oman!
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... 0To%20Oman

No tranche 3B, no AESA, No TVC, no no no.... :cry:
Last edited by Rahul M on 17 Apr 2010 14:42, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: please do not post large images inline. and what's with the pink and violet fonts ? go easy on those.

Henrik
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Henrik » 17 Apr 2010 14:24

Brahmananda wrote:The MRCA will go to the US, its a certainty, the Super Bug will win this fair and square, with delays in LCA, they'll want quick deliveries and the all round capability of the SH puts it in the best position to win. US will also give full-TOT, radar source code customization etc. They spend billions in developing those source codes you expect them to just easily hand them over. UK is getting source codes for the f-35, so your info is wrong, check link below. Israel was given access to the source codes of the f-15 and f-16 only after the development was completed.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article1865.html

General Snir is not concerned about the lack of access, noting that Israel was only given access to the F-16 and F-15 computer source code after development was completed and that it has already been agreed that IAF F-35 aircraft would include Isreali communications, electronic counter measures, and compatibility with missiles made by Rafael Armament Development. Access to the F-35 source code was only recently given to Great Britain which is not only one of the United States' strongest allies, but also has over $2 Billion invested in the project compared to $35 Million invested by Israel.

There is a strong will to win this deal in India, they will offer full-tot and even source codes, they're just waiting to shock the rest of competition and it will be a last minute developement which will put the US vendors at the top.

If Israel and UK have been given source codes for some of their aircraft, we too will get it. Just wait and watch. Timing is everything and winning such a big deal will depend on timing, other suppliers have been ranting about full-tot since the beggining and there has been so much talk about US unwillingness. These are shock tactics, make the other contenders feel like they have a better chance and get over-confident in their product and offer but then US pulls out the big gun right towards the end and bham, its takes it home. Business is all about timing and none of the other suppliers are as good in understanding business than the US.


Your article is from 2006, here's a newer one from Nov 2009

U.S. to withhold F-35 fighter software code
(Reuters) - The United States will keep to itself sensitive software code that controls Lockheed Martin Corp's new radar-evading F-35 fighter jet despite requests from partner countries, a senior Pentagon program official said.

Access to the technology had been publicly sought by Britain, which had threatened to scrub plans to buy as many as 138 F-35s if it were unable to maintain and upgrade its fleet without U.S. involvement.

No other country is getting the so-called source code, the key to the plane's electronic brains, Jon Schreiber, who heads the program's international affairs, told Reuters in an interview Monday.

"That includes everybody," he said, acknowledging this was not overly popular among the eight that have co-financed F-35 development -- Britain, Italy, the Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Australia, Denmark and Norway.


The single-engine F-35, also known as the Joint Strike Fighter, is in early stages of production. It is designed to escape radar detection and switch quickly between air-to-ground and air-to-air missions while still flying -- tricks heavily dependent on its 8 million lines of onboard software code.

Schreiber said the United States had accommodated all of its partners' requirements, providing ways for them to upgrade projected F-35 purchases even without the keys to the software.

"Nobody's happy with it completely. but everybody's satisfied and understands," he said of withholding the code. It is also a rebuff to Israel, which has sought the technology transfer as part of a possible purchase of up to 75 F-35s.

REPROGRAMMING FACILITY

Instead, the United States plans to set up a "reprogramming facility," probably at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida, to further develop F-35-related software and distribute upgrades, Schreiber said.

Software changes will be integrated there "and new operational flight programs will be disseminated out to everybody who's flying the jet," he said.

Representatives of the British defense staff in Washington did not return telephone calls seeking comment. Britain has committed $2 billion to develop the F-35, the most of any U.S. partner.

In March 2006, Paul Drayson, then Britain's minister for defense procurement, told the U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee that Britain might quit the program if the United States withheld such things as the software code.

The issue rose to the top. In May 2006, then-President George W. Bush and then-Prime Minister Tony Blair announced that both governments had agreed "that the UK will have the ability to successfully operate, upgrade, employ, and maintain the Joint Strike Fighter such that the UK retains operational sovereignty over the aircraft."

HOLY GRAIL

The source code is "kind of the holy grail" for this, controlling everything from weapons integration to radar to flight dynamics, said Joel Johnson of TEAL Group, an aerospace consultancy in Fairfax, Virginia.

Lockheed Martin said all F-35 partners "recognize the complexity of the highly integrated F-35 software and the program plan to upgrade F-35 capabilities as an operational community."

"This enables the aircraft to remain at the cutting edge of combat capability while allowing the program to meet affordability objectives," John Kent, a company spokesman, said in an emailed statement.

Schreiber said Singapore had signed a special security agreement last month, clearing the way for it to receive classified information on F-35s it could buy.

Lockheed, the Pentagon's No. 1 supplier by sales, projects it will sell up to 4,500 F-35s worldwide to replace its F-16 fighter and 12 other types of warplanes for 11 nations initially.

The United States plans to spend roughly $300 billion over the next 25 years to buy a total of 2,443 F-35 models, its costliest arms acquisition.

Competitors include Boeing Co's F/A-18E/F SuperHornet; Saab AB's Gripen; Dassault Aviation SA's Rafale; Russia's MiG-35 and Sukhoi Su-35; and the Eurofighter Typhoon, made by a consortium of British, German, Italian and Spanish companies.


http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/ ... 25?sp=true

Henrik
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Henrik » 17 Apr 2010 14:56

Shatack wrote:aircraft carrier kicking ass of taliban and typhoon each exercise seems to me a good operational experience!
Wrong again. Dropping a few bombs on some talibans during total air-superiority isn't something to brag about. That could even be done with a Tucano. Exercises isn't the real deal either, especially not dog-fighting WW2 style which isn't a big issue nowadays. Today it's more about BVR, and in that the Typhoon will kick Rafales ass with it's bigger AESA radar and supercruise ability.

Uk and Italy are cutting 2/3 of T3 with no real upgrade on their own "final" product, UK sells even thiers to Saudies, and they don't get the rid of F35B who is as costly as typhoon, and less capable on the paper! countries that doesn't support their own design phylosophy looks suspect!
it seems you are asking yourself wrong questions!

"The Eurofighter project is a disaster of unknown cost, since the MoD ceased releasing figures once they passed £20bn. Only four Typhoons (as the plane has been rebranded) have ever been deployed outside Britain: to the Falklands, where they safeguard sheep and penguins. That is about all they are good for, since they were designed three decades ago to fight the Soviets."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... wrong-wars

Cheap gripens?

seems the Uk is getting rid of tranche 3A in nice price deal with oman!
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... 0To%20Oman

No tranche 3B, no AESA, No TVC, no no no.... :cry:


You still don't understand that the F-35B are for STOL aircraft carriers, where neither Typhoon or Rafale can operate.

Rafale is an 90's product priced as a 5th gen. And yes, Gripen is A LOT cheaper and it doesn't mess about trying to be a 5th gen when it isn't, and you could operate as many as 3 Gripens for every Rafale. If the Rafale, as it is today, came around in late 90's-early 2000 it would have been a hit, but today it just isn't. And that it something that zero export confirms. They may win the deal in Brazil, but it's because of pure political pressure at a very discounted price. It's a good plane, but not good enough to justify that ridicously high pricetag and operating costs. And I promise you that if I dug around a bit in french newspapers i would find a ton of negative critics of Rafale, but since I don't speak french I won't. For now. It's not even one bit of value for money. When the F-35 comes around, even though it will probably handle like a pig and if it costs more than Rafale, it will still be a damn lot more value for money.

If you call the EF project a failure, on what grounds, without also calling the Rafale a failure?


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