MRCA News and Discussion

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abhik
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby abhik » 19 Apr 2010 22:20

Almost all airforces have a high low mix. Jaguars are wonderful terrain hugging aircrafts. Their role was never A2A, or point defence. That way the Jaguars would have been out of the pic 2 decades back!

True ,but the days of it being a "deep penetrating strike" etc. are well and truly over.Neither its range ,payload ,air to air capabilities are remarkable.

For the emboldened part.
Is there any connection between the funds allocated for the MMRCA and MCA?

200 of the double engined mrca in a decade will set you back atleast 20b $+ @ 2b+ $ or Rs 8-10k+ cr every year.From where we are coming from such spending will really be "bank braking".So if a mrca is chosen with a view to shore up the strike arm, immediately after this shoring up will we have cash to buy the MCA which is being advertised mainly as a replacement for the Jags even as we have the PAKFA(which I dont think will come very cheap), MTA buys among others.

Just a question. I am not challenging your thoughts. I stand a chance to learn something new here. Why do you think that the PAKFA cannot be a strike fighter? What are the characteristics/capabilities of a fifth generation strike platform which the PAKFA lacks?

Though others in this forum seem to think otherwise for reasons I frankly don't know, any stealth strike fighter must be able to carry a decent no. of bombs in stealth config i.e. internally and here the JSF is the benchmark with 2x2000lb bombs + 2x AAM carring one of each on each side bay, with the PAKFA's centerline bay I reckon it really wont be able to carry more than one 2000lb or even 1000lb bomb +AAMs even though it is a larger aircraft than the JSF.I mean it is a simple matter of the PAKFA not being able to carry enough internally.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Viv S » 19 Apr 2010 22:27

Austin wrote:^^^ Failing Leh test is this something serious or just irrelevant , Its hard to believe aircraft like Typhoon or Rafale will fail Leh test.


IMHO its not really relevant. Even during Kargil, fighter operations were conducted out of Srinagar and Avantipur, Leh catered only to transports. While its obviously a + if the fighter can operate in the extremities of Leh, its far from being a deciding factor.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 19 Apr 2010 22:38

In that case even if the news is true , not much is to be read about failed leh test , since it just needs some minor modification to fuel system.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Brahmananda » 19 Apr 2010 22:47

IAF wont ask for aircraft on-loan arrangement simply because the aircraft we'll be buying dont exist , none of the contenders have aircraft that will eventually be the versions we will operate. mig-35 doesnt have the numbers, same with the Gripen NG, EF T-3 also doesnt exist, F-16IN doesnt exist closest is block 60, SH too doesnt have the EPE engine as of yet and Rafale F-3+ isnt available in numbers as well. so on-loan out of the question. Our pilots will train at lee moore Calif while the aircraft are being manufactured.

Super hornet will win and i do know, no matter how tiring it gets, thats certain. I dont buy this Russian article about mig-35 being the only one that could take off from Leh, besides they said two were able to take off and not just the mig-35. This mig-35 being the only one article seems like Russki propaganda, unless the source is Indian and offcial, no use believing it.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Viv S » 19 Apr 2010 22:51

Brahmananda wrote:IAF wont ask for aircraft on-loan arrangement simply because the aircraft we'll be buying dont exist , none of the contenders have aircraft that will eventually be the versions we will operate. mig-35 doesnt have the numbers, same with the Gripen NG, EF T-3 also doesnt exist, F-16IN doesnt exist closest is block 60, SH too doesnt have the EPE engine as of yet and Rafale F-3+ isnt available in numbers as well. so on-loan out of the question. Our pilots will train at lee moore Calif while the aircraft are being manufactured.


That's not really an issue. The IAF operated a squadron of Su-30Ks before MKI deliveries began.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Brahmananda » 19 Apr 2010 23:03

The su-30K were not loaned but acquired and they were later converted to MKI standard.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Prasad » 19 Apr 2010 23:11

Brahmananda wrote:The su-30K were not loaned but acquired and they were later converted to MKI standard.


afaik, they weren't converted. they're still in pune?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Henrik » 19 Apr 2010 23:18

Austin wrote:^^^ Failing Leh test is this something serious or just irrelevant , Its hard to believe aircraft like Typhoon or Rafale will fail Leh test.

Well if the rumours are to be believed at least one of either Rafale or EF did fail in Leh. There are different independent sources saying that Gripen passed in Leh with marginal to spare. It is rumoured that 4/5 failed in Leh (before Gripen D was tested). If that's the case we now know that 4/6 failed since Gripen D passed. Other sources tells us that the Mig-35 passed as well. That would mean that the F-16, F/A-18 SH, EF and Rafale failed in Leh. According to what I've heard the EF failed misarably..

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Henrik » 19 Apr 2010 23:20

Viv S wrote:
Austin wrote:^^^ Failing Leh test is this something serious or just irrelevant , Its hard to believe aircraft like Typhoon or Rafale will fail Leh test.


IMHO its not really relevant. Even during Kargil, fighter operations were conducted out of Srinagar and Avantipur, Leh catered only to transports. While its obviously a + if the fighter can operate in the extremities of Leh, its far from being a deciding factor.

But if it is irrelevant, why bother to do tests there?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Viv S » 19 Apr 2010 23:24

Brahmananda wrote:The su-30K were not loaned but acquired and they were later converted to MKI standard.


:-o They have canards now?

Point was the IAF wouldn't necessarily be averse to temporarily operating an older variant till it can swap it out for a newer build(AFAIK the Su-30Ks were originally scheduled to be returned to Russia).
Last edited by Viv S on 19 Apr 2010 23:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Viv S » 19 Apr 2010 23:28

Henrik wrote:
But if it is irrelevant, why bother to do tests there?


Its not irrelevant, but its not a deciding factor either. A 126 aircraft, $10 billion+ order cannot be contingent on its performance at an airbase out of which fighter aircraft have never operated.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 19 Apr 2010 23:38

Brahmananda wrote:The su-30K were not loaned but acquired and they were later converted to MKI standard.


Nope, they were sold back to Russia and new MKIs ordered.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 20 Apr 2010 03:01

Brahmananda wrote:IAF wont ask for aircraft on-loan arrangement simply because the aircraft we'll be buying dont exist , none of the contenders have aircraft that will eventually be the versions we will operate. mig-35 doesnt have the numbers, same with the Gripen NG, EF T-3 also doesnt exist, F-16IN doesnt exist closest is block 60, SH too doesnt have the EPE engine as of yet and Rafale F-3+ isnt available in numbers as well. so on-loan out of the question. Our pilots will train at lee moore Calif while the aircraft are being manufactured.


the IAF could well ask for it. I already said that the specific IAF variant need not be supplied. The point is to get the air and ground crew acquainted with the basic fighter so that they can then induct the IAF specific variant faster. They did it for the Su-30MKI, where they first took Su-30K/MKs which were no where near the specs of the MKI and flogged them hard. But they trained several crews on the K/MKs in the period before the MKI was inducted and those senior crews went on to become CO's of their squadrons when MKIs started entering in large numbers.

The IAF could ask for USAF Block 40 F-16s or even ask UAE to lease Block 60s if it can. As long as the IAF gets some of their senior instructors and technicians acquainted with the aircraft, its purpose is served. They could ask the USN to spare a squadron of SHs. Not having Super Hornets without EPE engines (if they're even contracted that is) doesn't mean that you cannot learn to fly SHs.

They could ask the Luftwaffe (since they're leading the EADS bid) to supply a squadron of Tranche 1/2 Typhoons or the Adl'A to spare some Rafales. Flygvapnet has already offered to supply Gripen C/Ds initially and then replace them with NGs for Brazil and will have no problems doing it for India. of course this would be paid for in the contract itself. The size


Super hornet will win and i do know, no matter how tiring it gets, thats certain. I dont buy this Russian article about mig-35 being the only one that could take off from Leh, besides they said two were able to take off and not just the mig-35. This mig-35 being the only one article seems like Russki propaganda, unless the source is Indian and offcial, no use believing it.


You do know ? lol..yeah right..:D

How is it certain ? What makes you so sure ?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 20 Apr 2010 03:03

putnanja wrote:
Brahmananda wrote:The su-30K were not loaned but acquired and they were later converted to MKI standard.


Nope, they were sold back to Russia and new MKIs ordered.


goes to show how much Mr Brahmananda knows about the IAF, I'm afraid.. :P

and then he says he knows that the SH will win and that its a given. :wink:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 20 Apr 2010 03:05

Henrik wrote:Well if the rumours are to be believed at least one of either Rafale or EF did fail in Leh. There are different independent sources saying that Gripen passed in Leh with marginal to spare. It is rumoured that 4/5 failed in Leh (before Gripen D was tested). If that's the case we now know that 4/6 failed since Gripen D passed. Other sources tells us that the Mig-35 passed as well. That would mean that the F-16, F/A-18 SH, EF and Rafale failed in Leh. According to what I've heard the EF failed misarably..


plenty of rumours and I'm afraid except for Vishnu none seems to for sure..

THere was a guy on Keypubs who posted that he spoke to his colleagues in EADS Germany and asked them about the MRCA trials and they said everything went very well for the Typhoon. So there goes your rumour of the Typhoon having failed miserably..

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 20 Apr 2010 03:11

For what its worth, this article states that Kuwait's AF rejected the Rafale as being inferior to other Western jets like the Typhoon and F-22 (big surprise ?) and "other" advanced platforms (which ones?)..and still the Kuwaiti govt. is going ahead and likely to open commercial negotiations soon.

ABU DHABI [MENL] --

The Kuwait Air Force was said to have determined that France's Rafale was inferior to other Western fighter-jets.

Opposition parliamentarians said an air force study concluded that Rafale could not match up to such aircraft as the Eurofighter, F-22 and other advanced combat platforms.


They said the Defense Ministry has dismissed the air force study and plans to purchase Rafale despite its
shortcomings.


article

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Brahmananda » 20 Apr 2010 04:13

hey man mind your own biz dont get too cocky, just because you think you know. watch and wait, the SH will win.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 20 Apr 2010 04:28

Brahmananda wrote:hey man mind your own biz dont get too cocky, just because you think you know. watch and wait, the SH will win.


:rotfl:

He is minding his business that is giving you some gyan. Hmmmmm not even an apology over su 30 metc. fiasco Brahmanandajee?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 20 Apr 2010 04:37

Brahmananda wrote:
Super hornet will win and i do know, no matter how tiring it gets, thats certain.

Well, if you know, of course it is certain. Who could challenge that fact. Of course, at this point even IAF and MOD do not know. But, you do know and that is the truth and end of discussion. :P

Brahmananda wrote:The su-30K were not loaned but acquired and they were later converted to MKI standard.

This dazzling display of knowledge is awe inspiring. Once again, you show how much you do know and how much we don't.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 20 Apr 2010 04:42

Brahmananda wrote:hey man mind your own biz dont get too cocky, just because you think you know. watch and wait, the SH will win.

You continue to inspire us with you awesomeness. Yes, you are right. Kartik should mind his own business. After all, what business of his allows him to correct factually incorrect statements on a public forum? Such insolence from Kartik and other forum members should certainly not be tolerated. We are ashamed of ourselves for correcting your illogical(but otherwise brilliant) statements.
Last edited by Gaur on 20 Apr 2010 05:00, edited 1 time in total.

RoyG
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby RoyG » 20 Apr 2010 04:46

^^What do you expect from a Keizer...O woops i mean Kaiser.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby pgbhat » 20 Apr 2010 04:49

Gaur wrote:You continue to inspire us with you awesomeness. Yes, you are right. Kartik should mind his own business. After all, what business of his allows him to correct factually incorrect statements? Such insolence from Kartik and other forum members should certainly not be tolerated. We are ashamed of ourselves for correcting your illogical(but otherwise brilliant) statements.

:rotfl:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 20 Apr 2010 07:48

Must be another one of those world beater PhDs from a renowned university. :shock:

CM

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Carl_T » 20 Apr 2010 08:14

You unwashed abduls are all wrong.


Gripen will win.

I am 100 + 1% sure.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 20 Apr 2010 09:07

India's Next Big Scam...
Business Standard

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 20 Apr 2010 09:24

Carl_T wrote:Gripen will win.

I am 100 + 1% sure.


Why ?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 20 Apr 2010 09:48

^^
Saar,
Carl_T is just pulling Brahmananda's leg.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Brahmananda » 20 Apr 2010 11:19

if you feel ashamed of correcting my statements than feel ashamed. I not interested in what people think here, just stating the obvious SH will win. Every person is allowed an opinion, so IMO, SH will win.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 20 Apr 2010 11:47

Brahmananda wrote:if you feel ashamed of correcting my statements than feel ashamed. I not interested in what people think here,.....

That is so obvious. How could you be interested in what we fools think? But that begs a question. Why do you choose to grace this forum with your divine presence when you do not even care what its members think?

Sigh..if only the mods could ban someone for sheer stupidity.
However, enjoy the freedom here. MRCA thread has much more tolerance for such behavior than other threads. Enjoy while it lasts.
I, however, am not going to waste more of my time by replying to you any more.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Sanku » 20 Apr 2010 11:51

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

-----------------------------

On a more serious note, a semi stoopid question. Leh tests failed but the claim is Leh alone is not important. Ok fine, how many other airbases "like" Leh (i.e. high altitude in mountains with restricted spaces) do we have/will we have?

Certainly the MMRCA is cheen specific since it appears to be a bit of "overkill" against Pakistanis particularly the EFs etc (does not mean it will not pound Paki musharaff if needed) so I would expect that they will fly from Chabua et al.

How like are they too Leh (the question is semi-stoopid because I can actually put in the work and find out and not be lazy)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 20 Apr 2010 12:06

^^
As per my mango knowledge, Leh trials should be of paramount importance. Agreed that most of the MMRCA would not have to take off at such conditions. Their engines and avionics will also not have to start after experiencing such prolonged cold while in hanger. But during war (and also during peacetime), the MRCA would have to fly in such cold and rarefied atmosphere. So, in which trial would have IAF been able to test the flight characteristics in such conditions other than at leh?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 20 Apr 2010 12:11

Gaur wrote:^^
So, in which trial would have IAF been able to test the flight characteristics in such conditions other than at leh?


There is one trial which is free fair nothing can go wrong and you can get the desired result , its called "Paper Trial" :rotfl:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Brahmananda » 20 Apr 2010 12:45

Deleted.
Last edited by Suraj on 21 Apr 2010 06:16, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Stop trolling. You have been warned.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 20 Apr 2010 12:55

"..zeroing in on the winner in 18 months"! Well,we've heard that kind of talk before.Now even 18 months means that only by 2012 Jan or so-at the earliest, we will know who the winner is going to be.Which means that perhaps in 2014/15 the first aircraft will be arriving in large number.We might get a sqd. or two from stocks in the winner's stable as some have suggested to get our pilots and tech teams acquainted with the bird. If the PAK-FA is also going to be arriving -at least in Russian colours by 2015,with the Indian version a little later,the difference in capability will be immediately felt by the IAF and with our morrtal enemies also modernising,the MMRCA will have to prove its worth before the second tranche is ordered.The key factor for that happening is the fate of the LCA.If MK-2 has been perfected,there will be a strong demand to produce as many LCAs just as there is a lobby right now for more Arjuns.

I have a sneaky feeling that for political reasons too,we might go ahead with the M-2000 upgrades,faster to achieve,and if Rafale does not make the grade and keep the French somewhat satisfied,move on the 100+ Jaguar upgrades- another big deal,a toss-up between the US and UK/EU with the latter getting it if the EF is discarded or going to the US/Raytheon if the US birds are shot down in the evaluation.The Russians in any case have plenty of orders from both the IAF and IN,so both Sukhoi and MIG can be kept reasonably happy especially if there are follow on orders for more of the types,including perhaps a few more MIG-35 sqds to complemenmt replace older MIG-29s which cannot be upgraded.This will allow/provide the Gripen the best chasnce of winning.If we see some decisionmaking on the above upgrades,we will perhaps know who is NOT going to win!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby David Siegel » 20 Apr 2010 13:51

MRCA Deal will definitely head for major delay.Even considering the MoD's understanding about the decline in IAF's strength, it is obvious that we can not ignore the below reasons:

1. With Gripen NG yet to close its trial, there is no offcial end to the MRCA trial as of now

2. The GOI/MoD may not rush for a quick deal (immdiately after the trial's are over- as we may hope for), simply because of the huge size of the deal and geo-political constraint. Further there will be active/passive lobbying from different agents/group funded by the vendors

We can see this delay till 2011 end to 2012 mid for sure and by that time ->

3. MMS/Anthony/and overall UPA would like to keep the board clean before next oncoming election and may not risk any big deal at that point (may sound stupid at first glance, but very true)

4. Any stop-gap measure will be done by follow-up order of Su-30 MKI (may be with some upgrade) in some 30-40 odd numbers (as recently done or speculated during Putin's visit) to keep IAF's concern at bay

5. Because of huge delay we may see some of the contender pulling out of the contest, e.g- F16, I dont think the Assembly line will be open for long. I doubt the same for F-18 too if by 2012 MoD does not ink the deal.

The deal may be inked around 2012 end or 2013 mid at the earliest considering no big scam surfaces at that time. Else it will be Dennel like black lisiting (as done for IA's big guns purchanse) and CBI Probe. So this is where we are. I would be happy if I am wrong. But the silver lining is LCA-Tejas may exploit this delay in MRCA import if it can boost up its production line and also churn out a good LCA MK-II. Lets wait and watch.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Sanku » 20 Apr 2010 14:09

^^^
That post makes sense.

I am personally convinced by now that perhaps the best thing to do now is to drag its feet of MRCA, use this excuse to check out the beauties without making a commitment and keep the numbers up through old faithfuls.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby avinash.rd » 20 Apr 2010 14:24

Hi Everybody,

I would like to know the extent of technology transfer IAF expects from the contenders if anyone has any info regarding it. I believe this is one of the crucial requirement of IAF other than the price and the maintenance cost. I believe almost all fighters meet the technical requirements expected by IAF. I believe France and Russia are favorites in this TOT aspect. For ex, will IAF and Mod want to get AESA radars manufactured in India rather than just assembling? In that case, they would expect the contenders to transfer the AESA technology also. If India can get most of the technologies especially Avionics, then it will help us to become self reliant (Need of the hr). I believe we should invest more now keeping future requirements in the mind. I believe my question makes sense??

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shatack » 20 Apr 2010 15:18

Viv S wrote:
Not so much with regard to the Rafale(except maybe the claim of poor serviceability), but those related to the Eurofighter still apply. The post was in response to Shatack who felt the EF losing the Singapore competition(as well as others) was a damning statement against its bid for the IAF's MMRCA contract.


Singapore drops Eurofighter Typhoon from shopping list

SINGAPORE : The Singapore government confirmed Thursday that it had dropped the Eurofighter Typhoon from a shortlist of possible new fighters, leaving the French-built Rafale and US-made Boeing F-15 Strike Eagle as the final options.

The Ministry of Defence (MINDEF) said the Typhoon is a "very capable aircraft ... (but) the committed schedule for the delivery of the Typhoon and its systems did not meet the requirements" of the Republic of Singapore Air Force.

"In response to media queries, MINDEF confirmed that it has narrowed down the selection for the new fighter replacement programme to Dassaults Rafale and Boeings F-15," a ministry statement said.

"MINDEF has decided not to consider the proposal from BAE Systems any further."

The contract to replace the ageing fleet of A-4 Skyhawks and the F-5 jets will be worth more than US$1b.

Speaking at the Singapore Press Club's luncheon, Defence Minister Teo Chee Hean was asked repeatedly about the impending decision but he did not give anything away.

"We are proceeding with our evaluation in this programme and as usual, we will make sure we go through the entire evaluation, under no time pressure, and that we get the best aircraft possible that meets our needs," he said. - CNA/ct/ir
[/quote]

this is sing mindef declaration, tells more about smearing flightglobal rosy "eurofighter" 1 year later brieves from eurofighter's fan boyos, not? :rotfl:

Cheap AESA to fill old captor back end, only demonstrator, no budget, no commissioned, no production before 2018 country around the world, SELEX Galileo is a truly global business. The Company's 7000-strong international workforce http://www.selexgalileo.com/SelexGalile ... /index.sdo

Aesa full system with 25 years in electronic scaned airborn antenna,Thales began developing an AESA radar demonstrator in the 1990s,now budgeted, comissioned full production with Gaas antenna operational in air force in 2012, and with GaN MMics in 2015, Thales's leading-edge technology is supported by 22,500 R&D engineers who offer a capability unmatched in Europe to develop and deploy field-proven mission-critical information systems
http://www.thalesgroup.com/Press_Releas ... _of_tests/

Thales has more than 3 times engeneer in R&D than the whole selex european "patchworking force", tells alot too! :wink:

A fighter jet was damaged during landing yesterday (Weds) as the runway was slippery after a heavy rainfall.

Officials at the army base in Zeltweg, Styria, said today the Eurofighter pilot had to use the jet’s parachute to create a braking effect. Its bottom panel and engine were damaged in the landing procedure, they added.

Austrian army chiefs and Social Democratic (SPÖ) Defence Minister Norbert Darabos have come under fire as opposition critics claimed most of the country’s 15 fighter jets were unready for usage most of the time due to various technical problems.


2010 article with sources!


A well supported program by owners nations!

The RAF is losing more than 70 of its fleet of Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft. Air Chief Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy, who retires today as the Chief of the Air Staff, has made it clear that he expects the RAF to operate on the basis of a Typhoon fleet of 120 aircraft.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 734604.ece

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 20 Apr 2010 15:57

Sweden fights for the Gripen in Romania.. agrees to settle for the price of 2nd hand F-16's..

Sweden could provide 24 new "fully NATO interoperable Gripen C/D fighters, including training, support, logistics and 100 percent offset for the amount of one billion euros (1.3 billion dollars)."


Thats just amazing.. Desperation driving the moolah.. Just goes to show what price we might be able to bargain.... If we do end up buying the Gripen.. Numbers surely wont be an issue without going overboard with our budget...

http://www.swedishwire.com/business/384 ... to-romania

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shatack » 20 Apr 2010 16:16

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_ur ... =Translate

Brazil which was to announce its decision in the next days on the attribution of a contract of purchase of fighters, deferred to mid-May its decision. By the voice of its Minister for Defense, Nelson Jobim, the Brazilian government should make a decision after having received the opinion of the Council of Defense. It is President Lula who will reveal the choice of Brazil for the purchase of 36 fighters of an amount of 2,8 billion euros.


77m€ by plane, F3, with AESA Osf Spectra NG, 9t engines!
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... -deal.html

80€m nice price cheap Tranche 3A eurofighter "till 2017", a rather T2 config, no AESA, No upgraded engines, no more AoG abilites, no passive cam optronics, no Tvc, etc...

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... -deal.html

makes your choice!


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