MRCA News and Discussion

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Shatack
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shatack » 20 Apr 2010 16:20

shukla wrote:Sweden fights for the Gripen in Romania.. agrees to settle for the price of 2nd hand F-16's..

Sweden could provide 24 new "fully NATO interoperable Gripen C/D fighters, including training, support, logistics and 100 percent offset for the amount of one billion euros (1.3 billion dollars)."


Thats just amazing.. Desperation driving the moolah.. Just goes to show what price we might be able to bargain.... If we do end up buying the Gripen.. Numbers surely wont be an issue without going overboard with our budget...

http://www.swedishwire.com/business/384 ... to-romania


so desesperate

:wink:




:eek:
Last edited by Shatack on 20 Apr 2010 16:27, edited 1 time in total.

Raye
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Raye » 20 Apr 2010 16:25

Its sheer audacity to post in BR's MRCA thread, the longest running probably. Everything is discussed right to its bones, still here is my two pence which in most probability already stated by the revered Gurus:

Lets chose the bird , that will give us max advantage for MCA. Leave aside engine tech, we already getting it from three sources though all three are different and complicated technology.
a) su 30 mki engine.
b) joint collaboration with france.
c) lca engine finalization.

Now if engine is settled, we can see what other tech we will need for our own Mca, we cannot brag becoming a superpower and at the same time do marketing as usual without a perspective for our indigenous effort. Aesa tech is priority one, there r so many others we need the knowhow (including Navy's future requirements for a nxt gen carreer based aircraft) . Now here we shouldn't compromise with price and get the best available 4++ gen tech available. Let the numbers be less here due to high price we have to pay.

Now,the money left is small, our threat scenario is escalating, we can split the order and get the rest of the required numbers with Mig29/Mig35, we already have infra for that and thats additional advantage.


See brazil, all they want is tot, for long term, seems like we r compromising our long term objective with a short term knee jerk reaction (which is again of more than 10 yrs of span) , by checking instead whats best right now. After 10, 15, 20 yrs, whatever the mrca is selected, will be close to obsolete, and the same cycle will rotate again. We will again buy another aircraft............

We need to know desperately how to make these fancy birds, instead of importing it all the time. God forbid, if there is another economic recession in future, and the babus/politos cut our defense budget, we may not all the time have ready money to buy all the stuff we need to defend ourselves.

MRCA's perspective has ceased to exist because of the long delay, today in current situation, there is a golden chance to bridge the tech gap, and jump to our own MCA . If MOD thinks long term maybe we will stand on our legs someday...

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Viv S » 20 Apr 2010 18:59

Shatack wrote:this is sing mindef declaration, tells more about smearing flightglobal rosy "eurofighter" 1 year later brieves from eurofighter's fan boyos, not? :rotfl:


Kindly go through the Flight Global article again. It specifically states the problem with EF was the development timelines, particularly for air-to-ground capability(back in 2006), an issue that isn't relevant today.

Cheap AESA to fill old captor back end, only demonstrator, no budget, no commissioned, no production before 2018 country around the world, SELEX Galileo is a truly global business. The Company's 7000-strong international workforce http://www.selexgalileo.com/SelexGalile ... /index.sdo


That's your argument? :roll: The company has only 7000 employees therefore the Captor-E has poor performance.

FYI, flight testing of the CAESAR demonstrator completed in first half of 2007, back when the RBE-2 AA was still forced to rely on American T/R modules for development work.

Aesa full system with 25 years in electronic scaned airborn antenna,Thales began developing an AESA radar demonstrator in the 1990s,now budgeted, comissioned full production with Gaas antenna operational in air force in 2012, and with GaN MMics in 2015, Thales's leading-edge technology is supported by 22,500 R&D engineers who offer a capability unmatched in Europe to develop and deploy field-proven mission-critical information systems
http://www.thalesgroup.com/Press_Releas ... _of_tests/

Thales has more than 3 times engeneer in R&D than the whole selex european "patchworking force", tells alot too! :wink:


Thales makes the bestest radars because they have lotsof clever peoples.

Austrian army chiefs and Social Democratic (SPÖ) Defence Minister Norbert Darabos have come under fire as opposition critics claimed most of the country’s 15 fighter jets were unready for usage most of the time due to various technical problems.[/i]


And yet somehow the RAF and Luftwaffe never face these 'technical' problems.

A well supported program by owners nations!

The RAF is losing more than 70 of its fleet of Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft. Air Chief Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy, who retires today as the Chief of the Air Staff, has made it clear that he expects the RAF to operate on the basis of a Typhoon fleet of 120 aircraft.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 734604.ece


Nicely overlooking the fact that the Typhoons will still have a production run of 2.5+ times more aircraft than the Rafale.
Last edited by Viv S on 20 Apr 2010 23:52, edited 1 time in total.

Samay
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Samay » 20 Apr 2010 20:06

Gripen is turning out to be a highest RoI plane , but we are not interested in what it is offereing
Mig 35 is surely penetrating one area after another,..
what will happen if either of Gripen or Mig turn out to be the best in all evaluations ?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby johnny_m » 20 Apr 2010 20:20

I doubt that they will turn out to be 'the best' in many evaluations. But what they may do is (one or the other) turn out to be the least expensive fighters which comply with IAF's compliance matrix, which would mean that the others will have to nearly match their price to stand a chance of winning the deal.

I have said this before and I will say it again for me the finalists will be - MIG 35, Gripen NG and F 16. The SH may sneak in because Boeing seems to have a lot of 'fans' in the MOD/IAF.

Shatack
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shatack » 20 Apr 2010 21:46

Viv S wrote:
Shatack wrote:this is sing mindef declaration, tells more about smearing flightglobal rosy "eurofighter" 1 year later brieves from eurofighter's fan boyos, not? :rotfl:


Kindly go through the Flight Global article again. It specifically states the problem with EF was the development timelines, particularly for air-to-ground capable capability(back in 2006), an issue that isn't relevant today.

Cheap AESA to fill old captor back end, only demonstrator, no budget, no commissioned, no production before 2018 country around the world, SELEX Galileo is a truly global business. The Company's 7000-strong international workforce http://www.selexgalileo.com/SelexGalile ... /index.sdo


That's your argument? :roll: The company has only 7000 employees therefore the Captor-E has poor performance.

FYI, flight testing of the CAESAR demonstrator completed in first half of 2007, back when the RBE-2 AA was still forced to rely on American T/R modules for development work.

Aesa full system with 25 years in electronic scaned airborn antenna,Thales began developing an AESA radar demonstrator in the 1990s,now budgeted, comissioned full production with Gaas antenna operational in air force in 2012, and with GaN MMics in 2015, Thales's leading-edge technology is supported by 22,500 R&D engineers who offer a capability unmatched in Europe to develop and deploy field-proven mission-critical information systems
http://www.thalesgroup.com/Press_Releas ... _of_tests/

Thales has more than 3 times engeneer in R&D than the whole selex european "patchworking force", tells alot too! :wink:


Thales makes the bestest radars because they have lotsof clever peoples.

Austrian army chiefs and Social Democratic (SPÖ) Defence Minister Norbert Darabos have come under fire as opposition critics claimed most of the country’s 15 fighter jets were unready for usage most of the time due to various technical problems.[/i]


And yet somehow the RAF and Luftwaffe never face these 'technical' problems.

A well supported program by owners nations!

The RAF is losing more than 70 of its fleet of Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft. Air Chief Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy, who retires today as the Chief of the Air Staff, has made it clear that he expects the RAF to operate on the basis of a Typhoon fleet of 120 aircraft.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 734604.ece


Nicely overlooking the fact that the Typhoons will still have a production run of 2.5+ times more aircraft than the Rafale.


UMS is a thales eads gaas comp, 75% french, alcatel and thales are starting GaN tech through UMS France for production, as about RAF and german air force cost and technical problems, lol, they'll never comunicate on it, and problems are such big as cost that they doesn't back the program no more, cutting over 70 aircrafts, budget cut show that UK mod stoped to provide any datas when thier program cost reached over in early 2000 's 20billions£, they doesn't trust consortium anymore , this tells alots about 21th century Mec radar old fashioned typhoon relic, isn't it?

the french started to put money on Gaas and GaN trough UMS, they sells dearer mmics to clients as selex, who as R&D Knoledge only carbon copy thier low cost cheap raven radar to produce aesa antenna for typhoon and Saab, they doesn't have the experience, knoledges and tech skill to make a full ESA radar system with complex mode forming beaming as Thales and USA comps acheive actually!

live with it, commercials and facts are so differents!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Carl_T » 20 Apr 2010 21:49

Samay wrote:Gripen is turning out to be a highest RoI plane , but we are not interested in what it is offereing

Why do you say so?

I am pulling for the Gripen, it is cheap, light, multirole, has that datalink which seems like it would be a "force multiplier" when combined with AESA. We have issues with filling enough numbers, so we should go for the planes which have the highest return on cost.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby MadhuG » 20 Apr 2010 22:49

I believe that the Rafale should be opted for the following reasons:
1. IAF likes the Mirage 2000 and we already have the logistics to support similar French aircraft.
2. The French are politically viable. We can buy nuclear reactors from them is one case in point.
3. Though the Rafale lacks an AESA radar at the moment, there is enough time for the RBE2-AA to be included into the deal by the time the price negotiations are completed.

Our pilots must find the new aircraft to be a great asset.
Our politicians, how much ever you find them repulsive, are all well educated to avoid political pitfalls(USA). Never ever will India allow herself to be arm-twisted. It is the Indian mindset. I know this as I belong to a family with deep roots in Indian politics. This is why we always bought weapons with dependencies from countries that are not easily subverted by the Americans. Hence because of this I would like us to avoid buying the F-16, the SH-18, the Grippen or the Typhoon(Irrespective of what EADS says with word-play).

I find the Mig-35 to be a capable aircraft, but we have enough Russian gear already in the pipeline. And again politically I am not very pleased about how the Gorshkov deal went.

Sorry for singing an already well sung song once again. But isn't my voice fresh?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Samay » 20 Apr 2010 23:09

Carl_T wrote:Why do you say so?

I am pulling for the Gripen, it is cheap, light, multirole, has that datalink which seems like it would be a "force multiplier" when combined with AESA. We have issues with filling enough numbers, so we should go for the planes which have the highest return on cost.

Many things like aim 120, engine,and some internal components are sourced from outside, so its technology wont be provided , which places it in the same category as the american jets(f16) , which will later have more influence in the contract due to known reasons,. Not everything gripen offers in its NG prototype would be available for ToT ,we get aesa but we dont get the engine tech. .

Also this would seriously harm the LCA project if MoD wants to slash expenditure , .
I would prefer gripen because of the RoI factor but also that it works in Tibet region.,provided it sells what it shows with an *

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Henrik » 20 Apr 2010 23:13

Shatack wrote:so desesperate

It's not desperate you arrogant frenchie. Read earlier posts.. :eek:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Henrik » 20 Apr 2010 23:18

Shatack wrote:http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.easybourse.com%2Fbourse%2Farticle%2F15576%2Fvente-de-rafale-au-bresil-nouveau-report-de-la-decision.html&lp=fr_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

Brazil which was to announce its decision in the next days on the attribution of a contract of purchase of fighters, deferred to mid-May its decision. By the voice of its Minister for Defense, Nelson Jobim, the Brazilian government should make a decision after having received the opinion of the Council of Defense. It is President Lula who will reveal the choice of Brazil for the purchase of 36 fighters of an amount of 2,8 billion euros.


77m€ by plane, F3, with AESA Osf Spectra NG, 9t engines!
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... -deal.html

80€m nice price cheap Tranche 3A eurofighter "till 2017", a rather T2 config, no AESA, No upgraded engines, no more AoG abilites, no passive cam optronics, no Tvc, etc...

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... -deal.html

makes your choice!

Typhoon anytime anywhere, I would at least afford to run them! Rafales would just turn into hangar-queens. Rafale is a Renault Alpine priced as a Ferrari.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 20 Apr 2010 23:22

Henrik wrote:
Shatack wrote:so desesperate

It's not desperate you arrogant frenchie. Read earlier posts.. :eek:



Keep it civil. Dont want to ban unnecessarily!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Viv S » 20 Apr 2010 23:50

Shatack wrote:UMS is a thales eads gaas comp, 75% french, alcatel and thales are starting GaN tech through UMS France for production,


Its not just Thales and EADS(which has a majority stake in the EF program) researching GaN tech. BAe, Selex, Ericsson MS, Indra are all a part of the EDA funded Korrigan consortium.

as about RAF and german air force cost and technical problems, lol, they'll never comunicate on it


Because unlike honest transparent Austria, they're godless communists/dictatorships where the free media is unknown of and state censorship reigns.

, and problems are such big as cost that they doesn't back the program no more, cutting over 70 aircrafts, budget cut show that UK mod stoped to provide any datas when thier program cost reached over in early 2000 's 20billions£, they doesn't trust consortium anymore , this tells alots about 21th century Mec radar old fashioned typhoon relic, isn't it?


I'd thank you to use a full-stop/period once in a while. FYI, budget cuts took place across the board. The EF acquisition was not singled out.

the french started to put money on Gaas and GaN trough UMS, they sells dearer mmics to clients as selex, who as R&D Knoledge only carbon copy thier low cost cheap raven radar to produce aesa antenna for typhoon and Saab, they doesn't have the experience, knoledges and tech skill to make a full ESA radar system with complex mode forming beaming as Thales and USA comps acheive actually!


And despite all the experience and R&D muscle, the RBE 2 PESA is conclusively outperformed by the Captor and Bars.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Brahmananda » 21 Apr 2010 11:35

the NG, SH and EF can offer commonality with LCA mk-2 in terms of engine. NG performs really well with the GE F 414, it allows it to supercruise with a good load so there isnt a need to have the EJ200 engine on the NG. GE F 414 seems like the obvious route for the LCA mk-2.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 21 Apr 2010 11:48

Brahmananda wrote:the NG, SH and EF can offer commonality with LCA mk-2 in terms of engine. NG performs really well with the GE F 414, it allows it to supercruise with a good load so there isnt a need to have the EJ200 engine on the NG. GE F 414 seems like the obvious route for the LCA mk-2.

Source? According to Gripen site, the testbed for Gripen NG (Gripen Demo) supercruised at Mach 1.2 (the site does not specify any load).
http://www.gripen.com/en/MediaRelations/News/2009/090121_gripen_supercruises.htm

Detest from making such claims without a "credible" source.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby kit » 21 Apr 2010 11:54

I wouldnt like to pay my dollar to the chap who is busy gifting weapons and money to my worst enemy.Would rather have the eurojet engine on my LCA s and MRCA s.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Brahmananda » 21 Apr 2010 12:21

even EJ200 engine requires US parts

Goodrich Engine Control Systems Engine Controls: Engine control system
Aerotech Herman Nelson, Inc. Engine Preheaters: Portable heaters
Goodrich Components Fuel Nozzles
BMT Aerospace USA Gears & Assemblies: Gearbox assemblies & gears
Goodrich Engine Components, Power Transmissions Systems Shafts & Shaft Assemblies: Power take off shaft

Just because the EJ200 is assembled in EU doesnt mean it doesnt have US critical parts.

http://www.gripen.com/NR/rdonlyres/FE46 ... 001_01.pdf

page 2 read it well.

Gripen is supersonic at all altitudes
and can cruise supersonically
with an external load including fuel
tank, four AMRAAM and two sidewinder
missiles without the need to
engage the afterburner.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 21 Apr 2010 12:49

^^
My apologies. You are correct.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Viv S » 21 Apr 2010 12:52

kit wrote:I wouldnt like to pay my dollar to the chap who is busy gifting weapons and money to my worst enemy.Would rather have the eurojet engine on my LCA s and MRCA s.


Well no one else is boycotting Pakistan, so I'm reluctant to judge the Americans that harshly. The Swedes are selling the Erieye, Germany the U-214, France the JF-17 avionics(despite some recent nay saying). While Russia has limited relations with Pakistan(they still authorized the re-export of RD-93), they've exported most of their product line to the PRC, and that has served as a source of technology for Chinese arms being hawked to Pakistan.

That said, the EJ-200 is still the better option, since it requires minimum redesign unlike the larger F414.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Lilo » 21 Apr 2010 13:08

The F-35 and Canada's Aviation Future - Wings Magazine

One reason for this plethora of supporters of F- 35 production could well be that the US may at present be the only country financially capable of producing the next generation of fighter aircraft. Sweden, a country renowned for its excellent military jets over the past half century, has decided that its current Saab Gripen, which has been bought to date by South Africa, Hungary and the Czech Republic, will be the last of the Saabs.

France has had absolutely no luck to date in marketing its fine aircraft, the Rafale, currently used by the French Armée de l’Air and Navy. The European Eurofighter, ordered by Britain, Germany, Italy, Spain, Austria and just recently Saudi Arabia, does not have a successor on the drawing boards. While the Eurofighter is also a multipurpose fighter, it was initially planned as a point defence aircraft. With the arrival of the F-35 in the British armory, it could be assigned that task, leaving the other duties to the F-35. Other NATO countries, including Canada, cannot afford the luxury of having two distinct aircraft.


Some indications that Gripen might be the last of the Saab fighter jets.
In that case it makes sense for india to go for it because theoretically it can for go for the whole package of the saab gripen fighter line from the fabrication machinery,the radar module fabrication process, the IP rights and what not.

In other words there is scope of full TOT (in the real sense of the term).

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Brahmananda » 21 Apr 2010 13:24

Gaur wrote:^^
My apologies. You are correct.


my apologies for behaving rudely before as well yaar, maafi kubuul ho!!

well the EJ2000 does need some re-work firstly because it hasnt been marinised for naval operations unlike the GE. Secondly both claim they need little re-work. But i support lca mk-2 with a new stealthier intake, more hardpoints, larger wings and powerful engine, i think if we keep the weight below the Gripen NG, that with the GE F414G should allow for better performance than the NG especially in terms of supercruise. EJ2000 is no doubt a gr8 engine but its atleast two times more expensive. I still doubt the EF with EJ2000 can match the Griepn NG's claim of supercruise with the load mentioned above. Plus the GE engine is combat proven and has never failed, proven reliability since the begining.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 21 Apr 2010 13:37

Green F/A-18 set for Thursday flight

The U.S. Navy announced it would fly an F/A-18 Super Hornet fueled by a mixture of biofuels to mark Earth Day celebrations Thursday. The Green Hornet F/A-18 leaves its hangar at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Md., to certify the use of alternative fuels, the U.S. Navy said. The test is one of 15 scheduled for the U.S. Navy.

Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus said the flight Thursday would put the Navy one step closer to a green-energy future."After it is successful, and we are absolutely confident that it will be; we will move to expand biofuel testing to our marine gas turbine engines and to the engines of our tactical vehicles," he said.

The Green Hornet will test the use of a biofuel made from the camelina plant, chosen by the U.S. military for its first tests for aviation biofuel. The Navy announced in January plans to develop a so-called Green Strike Group of vessels powered by biofuels by 2012. The Navy said it plans by 2020 to use alternative fuel resources for half of its energy demands.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 21 Apr 2010 13:43

SELEX Galileo’s RAVEN AESA radar supporting Gripen NG weapon system

SELEX Galileo’s prototype of its Raven ES-05 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, the Raven 1000P, is playing a key role in the Saab Gripen Next Generation flight proving and demonstration programme.

The programme has been very successful, demonstrating radar modes in flight as well as showing the effectiveness of the SELEX Galileo and Saab team in integrating the radar into the weapon system and proving real capability in very short timescales. Both air-to-air and air-to-ground modes have been integrated with great success and the expected performance has been achieved. Particular focus was placed on the air-to-ground capability and Raven 1000P produced excellent medium and high resolution SAR imagery at long ranges.

Trials will continue and capability insertion will take place at the appropriate points in the development schedule. SELEX Galileo, a Finmeccanica Company, is a key provider of leading edge sensors for the most advanced fighters. In recent months, SELEX Galileo has been selected by Saab to supply two key sensors: the Raven ES-05 and the Infrared Search & Track (IRST) system SKYWARD-G.

Raven ES-05 is a high performance, premium class fire control radar. Building on over 50 years of fire control radar experience, Raven ES-05 delivers greater performance and higher reliability than comparable mechanically scanned radars. With the Raven ES-05 and with the IRST, the Company will be guaranteeing the full mission effectiveness of the next generation aircraft Gripen NG.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 21 Apr 2010 13:50

Eurofighter enhancement package enters flight test

Flight-test activities on a new package of modifications for the Eurofighter Typhoon have got under way in the UK, with the work to lead to new operational capabilities from next year. To be performed on Tranche 2 production aircraft for partner nations Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK, the phase 1 enhancement (P1E) programme will add new air-to-surface weapons functionality and an expanded communications fit.


"IPA6 commenced flight trials of a new software enhancement package in December,” says BAE, which adds: “the trials have been successful." The same test aircraft will also be used to prove digital functionality for the Diehl BGT Defence IRIS-T short-range air-to-air missile, used by Eurofighter operators Germany, Italy and launch export customer Austria. Other activities will include assessing improvements to the Typhoon's man-machine interface, and expanding the capabilities of its Multi-functional Information Distribution System datalink. A first package of P1E enhancements will be released to operators next year, with the remaining modifications to be available during 2012. The process will also involve development aircraft based in Germany, Italy and Spain.

Meanwhile, EADS Defence & Security chief executive Stefan Zoller says a decision is expected "within weeks" on whether the four partner nations will install active electronically scanned array radars with their Tranche 3A production Eurofighters. "There is a proposal on the table, and now it's the task of the nations to respond as quickly as possible," he says. "We have to differentiate at what point in time the nations need that radar to equip their own fleets, and how fast we have to go to stay in [export] competitions. It's a case of emergency." Contract approval was given late last year to produce a combined 112 aircraft under Tranche 3A, but the nations have yet to agree on a final configuration for the type. Zoller also expects the partners to later proceed with the planned Tranche 3B production of the Eurofighter, but concedes: "maybe they will have different answers on the numbers of aircraft they need in their fleets."

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shatack » 21 Apr 2010 15:06

Viv S wrote:
And despite all the experience and R&D muscle, the RBE 2 PESA is conclusively outperformed by the Captor and Bars.


RBE2 PESA is no more produced, Mech captor will be till 2020, and will light on Foe RWR a decade more!

It takes 1h to retrofit a Pesa with AESA antenna.. :wink:

Korrigan is a multipurpose tech demonstrator studies, no a specific applicative industrial projet..

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Ponen » 21 Apr 2010 15:21

Lilo wrote:The F-35 and Canada's Aviation Future - Wings Magazine
One reason for this plethora of supporters of F- 35 production could well be that the US may at present be the only country financially capable of producing the next generation of fighter aircraft. Sweden, a country renowned for its excellent military jets over the past half century, has decided that its current Saab Gripen, which has been bought to date by South Africa, Hungary and the Czech Republic, will be the last of the Saabs.


I wonder if they could provide a source for that because I've never seen anything like it and SAAB has after all already started planning on new designs.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shatack » 21 Apr 2010 15:32

shukla wrote:SELEX Galileo’s RAVEN AESA radar supporting Gripen NG weapon system

SELEX Galileo’s prototype of its Raven ES-05 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, the Raven 1000P, is playing a key role in the Saab Gripen Next Generation flight proving and demonstration programme.

The programme has been very successful, demonstrating radar modes in flight as well as showing the effectiveness of the SELEX Galileo and Saab team in integrating the radar into the weapon system and proving real capability in very short timescales. Both air-to-air and air-to-ground modes have been integrated with great success and the expected performance has been achieved. Particular focus was placed on the air-to-ground capability and Raven 1000P produced excellent medium and high resolution SAR imagery at long ranges.

Trials will continue and capability insertion will take place at the appropriate points in the development schedule. SELEX Galileo, a Finmeccanica Company, is a key provider of leading edge sensors for the most advanced fighters. In recent months, SELEX Galileo has been selected by Saab to supply two key sensors: the Raven ES-05 and the Infrared Search & Track (IRST) system SKYWARD-G.

Raven ES-05 is a high performance, premium class fire control radar. Building on over 50 years of fire control radar experience, Raven ES-05 delivers greater performance and higher reliability than comparable mechanically scanned radars. With the Raven ES-05 and with the IRST, the Company will be guaranteeing the full mission effectiveness of the next generation aircraft Gripen NG.


gripen NG

Image

Kersi D
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 21 Apr 2010 15:43

Austin wrote:
Gaur wrote:^^
So, in which trial would have IAF been able to test the flight characteristics in such conditions other than at leh?


There is one trial which is free fair nothing can go wrong and you can get the desired result , its called "Paper Trial" :rotfl:


By 'Paper' do you mean currency notes ?

K

Kersi D
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 21 Apr 2010 15:52

David Siegel wrote:MRCA Deal will definitely head for major delay.Even considering the MoD's understanding about the decline in IAF's strength, it is obvious that we can not ignore the below reasons:

1. With Gripen NG yet to close its trial, there is no offcial end to the MRCA trial as of now

2. The GOI/MoD may not rush for a quick deal (immdiately after the trial's are over- as we may hope for), simply because of the huge size of the deal and geo-political constraint. Further there will be active/passive lobbying from different agents/group funded by the vendors

We can see this delay till 2011 end to 2012 mid for sure and by that time ->

3. MMS/Anthony/and overall UPA would like to keep the board clean before next oncoming election and may not risk any big deal at that point (may sound stupid at first glance, but very true)

4. Any stop-gap measure will be done by follow-up order of Su-30 MKI (may be with some upgrade) in some 30-40 odd numbers (as recently done or speculated during Putin's visit) to keep IAF's concern at bay

5. Because of huge delay we may see some of the contender pulling out of the contest, e.g- F16, I dont think the Assembly line will be open for long. I doubt the same for F-18 too if by 2012 MoD does not ink the deal.

The deal may be inked around 2012 end or 2013 mid at the earliest considering no big scam surfaces at that time. Else it will be Dennel like black lisiting (as done for IA's big guns purchanse) and CBI Probe. So this is where we are. I would be happy if I am wrong. But the silver lining is LCA-Tejas may exploit this delay in MRCA import if it can boost up its production line and also churn out a good LCA MK-II. Lets wait and watch.



And if the government changes in the next election, we start the cycle again. In the main time we get a couple of sqdns of Tejas and another 50 - 100 SU 30, upgrade and up-engine the Jaguars and upgrade teh Mirage 2000 and then the PAK FA is appearing. So we now have new specs for MMRCA. By this time F 16 and F 18 prodcution line has closed down so US offers F 35.

Cheers

K

Shatack
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shatack » 21 Apr 2010 15:55

Kersi D wrote:
By 'Paper' do you mean currency notes ?

K


it mean that Gripen NG stracture hasn't been even produced, doesn't exist!

this is real!



you can see here the aerodyn of LERX, close coupled canards and wing sweep angle effect on lift, eurofighter "single seat demo" hasn't, you'll see her in demo, what she does slowly and draggy in the space of the living room, even rafale "biplace" heavier version does it quicker with more G "11" into the bathromm space! :wink:

dorai
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby dorai » 21 Apr 2010 16:12

SELEX Galileo’s RAVEN AESA radar supporting Gripen NG weapon system

Image

07:00 GMT, April 21, 2010 Edinburgh | SELEX Galileo’s prototype of its Raven ES-05 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, the Raven 1000P, is playing a key role in the Saab Gripen Next Generation flight proving and demonstration programme.

The programme has been very successful, demonstrating radar modes in flight as well as showing the effectiveness of the SELEX Galileo and Saab team in integrating the radar into the weapon system and proving real capability in very short timescales.

Both air-to-air and air-to-ground modes have been integrated with great success and the expected performance has been achieved. Particular focus was placed on the air-to-ground capability and Raven 1000P produced excellent medium and high resolution SAR imagery at long ranges.

Trials will continue and capability insertion will take place at the appropriate points in the development schedule.

SELEX Galileo, a Finmeccanica Company, is a key provider of leading edge sensors for the most advanced fighters. In recent months, SELEX Galileo has been selected by Saab to supply two key sensors: the Raven ES-05 and the Infrared Search & Track (IRST) system SKYWARD-G.

Raven ES-05 is a high performance, premium class fire control radar. Building on over 50 years of fire control radar experience, Raven ES-05 delivers greater performance and higher reliability than comparable mechanically scanned radars.

With the Raven ES-05 and with the IRST, the Company will be guaranteeing the full mission effectiveness of the next generation aircraft Gripen NG.

http://www.defpro.com/news/details/14657/

I guess it's only on paper... :roll:

Above comment "stracture " I interpret that as structure... There's a Gripen NG demonstrator flying since 2 years. If India is interested in 2010+ technology in both aircraft design and avionics then they shouldnt look at Rafale which is locked in a 1970s design. To take lessons from reduced signature work you need to update major sections of the aircraft ever so often with new designs and materials, this is what Saab is doing to NG together with adding more power.

Shatack
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shatack » 21 Apr 2010 16:30

dorai wrote:SELEX Galileo’s RAVEN AESA radar supporting Gripen NG weapon system

Image

07:00 GMT, April 21, 2010 Edinburgh | SELEX Galileo’s prototype of its Raven ES-05 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, the Raven 1000P, is playing a key role in the Saab Gripen Next Generation flight proving and demonstration programme.

The programme has been very successful, demonstrating radar modes in flight as well as showing the effectiveness of the SELEX Galileo and Saab team in integrating the radar into the weapon system and proving real capability in very short timescales.

Both air-to-air and air-to-ground modes have been integrated with great success and the expected performance has been achieved. Particular focus was placed on the air-to-ground capability and Raven 1000P produced excellent medium and high resolution SAR imagery at long ranges.

Trials will continue and capability insertion will take place at the appropriate points in the development schedule.

SELEX Galileo, a Finmeccanica Company, is a key provider of leading edge sensors for the most advanced fighters. In recent months, SELEX Galileo has been selected by Saab to supply two key sensors: the Raven ES-05 and the Infrared Search & Track (IRST) system SKYWARD-G.

Raven ES-05 is a high performance, premium class fire control radar. Building on over 50 years of fire control radar experience, Raven ES-05 delivers greater performance and higher reliability than comparable mechanically scanned radars.

With the Raven ES-05 and with the IRST, the Company will be guaranteeing the full mission effectiveness of the next generation aircraft Gripen NG.

http://www.defpro.com/news/details/14657/

I guess it's only on paper... :roll:



showing a mock up or fitting mmics on a plate doesn't makes a AESA radar system, most of the work comes on processors capacities and the millions codes lines to scan, form, interleave and moding each mmcis independently, this takes more money and years than comercials talks! especially when Gripen and Tyhpoon will keep their mech back end processing unit and software!
selex makes cheap simple aesa, they doesn't have the knowledges , feedback and skill ingeneering force of northrop or thales to excell in this! :wink:

Shatack
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shatack » 21 Apr 2010 16:43

dorai wrote:
Above comment "stracture " I interpret that as structure... There's a Gripen NG demonstrator flying since 2 years. If India is interested in 2010+ technology in both aircraft design and avionics then they shouldnt look at Rafale which is locked in a 1970s design. To take lessons from reduced signature work you need to update major sections of the aircraft ever so often with new designs and materials, this is what Saab is doing to NG together with adding more power.


all 21th centuries fighters started studies in the 80's, NG demonstrator is a C/D with a new engine and a new antenna, what a deal really!

Saab will have to change most of the cellule structure to acheive this,

"Compared to the Gripen D, the Gripen NG's max takeoff weight has increased from 14,000 to 16,000 kg (30,900–35,300 lb) with an increase in empty weight of 200 kg (440 lb). Due to relocated main landing gear, the internal fuel capacity has increased by 40%, which will increase ferry range to 4,070 km (2,200 nmi). The new undercarriage configuration also allows for the addition of two heavy stores pylons to the fuselage. Its PS-05/A radar adds a new AESA antenna for flight testing beginning in mid-2009"

and only dreamers will beleive that changing all the balance into a so tiny plane adding 40% more fuel in wings will add only 200kg to the plane without reseizing cellule, structure and wings , reshaping all aerodynamic , as increasing the overall seize! its like making a brand new plane, :wink:

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16548
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Location: Illini Nation

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 21 Apr 2010 16:44

Shatack,

Two items of interest:
1) Some of your posts contain stuff that was discussed years ago - like the Grip youtube stuff. (We have pretty mush discussed anything and everything - these posts are more like take-15.)
2) Please avoid quoting the entire post - a BR standard.

Thx.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16548
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 21 Apr 2010 16:48

and only dreamers will beleive that changing all the balance into a so tiny plane adding 40% more fuel in wings will add only 200kg to the plane without reseizing cellule, structure and wings , reshaping all aerodynamic , as increasing the overall seize! its like making a brand new plane


Trying to learn. Why is that an issue? With the CAD/CAM, modeling software, etc, why would a mature company like SAAB not be able to do that. Why would they feel a need to mislead very mature and extremely experienced people (in India)?

Even India produced the HJT-36 in a very short period of time.

Shatack
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 55
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shatack » 21 Apr 2010 20:07

Cad/Dam is nice to design, but production process is another matter!

everyone can draw a plane on a computer screen, my lil nefew do that!

why saab would launch another complet process production on a new plane when even the swedish mindef doen't buy the plane?
will any contries buys a plane that doesn't exist and need totally new airframe? hope F35 clients could tell alot about "cheap " F35 revolution they bough on computer screens!

:wink:

Carl_T
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Carl_T » 21 Apr 2010 20:11

Brahmananda wrote:Gripen is supersonic at all altitudes
and can cruise supersonically
with an external load including fuel
tank, four AMRAAM and two sidewinder
missiles without the need to
engage the afterburner.



In that case it's probably a huge plus for the Gripen.

Manish_Sharma
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 21 Apr 2010 20:15

kit wrote:I wouldnt like to pay my dollar to the chap who is busy gifting weapons and money to my worst enemy.Would rather have the eurojet engine on my LCA s and MRCA s.

Exactly Kit here:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=859934#p859934
This is the list of US stuff giver to porkis from Sridhar in Paki thread: 250 Armour piercing TOW 2A Anti-tank missiles, six AN-TPS77 surveillance radar, 5600 military radio sets, 500 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, 200 AIM-9M Sidewinder missiles, 36 F-16 Block 52s, mid-life upgrade to 34 existing F-16 A/Bs to C/D block 50/52, 8 P-3C maritime reconnaissance aircraft, mid-life upgrade to existing P-3 fleet, 26 Bell 412 helicopters, 39 T-37 military trainer jets, 12 Shadow drones, 150 submarine/surface/air launched Harpoon Block II missiles, six Phalanx Close In Weapon Systems (CIWS) for the Navy, five refurbished SH-2I Super Seasprite maritime helicopters and transfer of 8 Perry-class guided missile Frigates upgraded with anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capability. The US is also to provide Pakistan with three additional P-3 aircraft that will be configured with the E-2C HAWKEYE airborne early warning electronics suite. Since the start of Afghan operations in c. 2002, the US had supplied other arms like 115 155mm Self-propelled M109A5 howitzers, 20 AH-1 Cobra Attack helicopters, upgrades to existing older versions of AH-1 Cobras, 6 C-130Hs, five fast patrol boats, 450 vehicles for Frontier Corps, hundreds of NVGs, thousands of protective vests, Harris high frequency communication sets, and undisclosed special weapons.

Imagine buying stuff from same country. :evil:

Wickberg
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Wickberg » 21 Apr 2010 20:16

Shatack wrote:
Saab will have to change most of the cellule structure to acheive this,

"Compared to the Gripen D, the Gripen NG's max takeoff weight has increased from 14,000 to 16,000 kg (30,900–35,300 lb) with an increase in empty weight of 200 kg (440 lb). Due to relocated main landing gear, the internal fuel capacity has increased by 40%, which will increase ferry range to 4,070 km (2,200 nmi). The new undercarriage configuration also allows for the addition of two heavy stores pylons to the fuselage. Its PS-05/A radar adds a new AESA antenna for flight testing beginning in mid-2009"

and only dreamers will beleive that changing all the balance into a so tiny plane adding 40% more fuel in wings will add only 200kg to the plane without reseizing cellule, structure and wings , reshaping all aerodynamic , as increasing the overall seize! its like making a brand new plane, :wink:


FYI the Gripen NG Demo that has been flying for a couple of years actually has a redesigned fuselage that carries 40% fuel, it has moved the landing gear and strengthened the fuselage to be able to carry more pylons and munition. It has a operational AESA radar onboard, new engine etc etc. It´s not some fantasy project on paper, it is flying and has done so for a long time...

dorai
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby dorai » 21 Apr 2010 20:42

Dassault and Thales in conflict

Dassault wants to sell second hand mirages to India, while Thales is pitching to retrofit India’s existing fleet.

The Abu Dhabi Air Force and the Qatari Air Force earlier this month officially proposed selling their respective fleet of Mirage 2000 to the Indian Air Force. The Emirates own 68 aircraft, most of which are the more advanced 2000-9 version, while Qatar has some 12 Mirage 2000-5.

The proposal was carefully co-ordinated with Dassault Aviation, which is hoping to replace the Qatari and Emirati Mirages with brand new Rafales.

However Dassault is up against a serious obstacle in its India plans, in the shape of the French defense electronics group Thales. For several years, Thales has been negotiating a contract to retrofit the Indian Air Force’s fleet of Mirage 2000 (IOL 550,564). India will opt for either one or other of the two deals on offer, but not both.

Top brass at Thales are proceeding delicately with their negotiations: Dassault has held a 26% stake in Thales since 2008, while the French government also owns a 27% stake. Thales sales teams, however, are still very much in hot pursuit of the contract (IOL 612), worth an estimated €1.4 billion.


http://www.intelligenceonline.com/corpo ... 91-ART-REC

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They can't even work together nationally so imagine with foreign partners.


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