MRCA News and Discussion

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Carl_T
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Carl_T » 27 Apr 2010 11:12

I hope we just buy a cheap plane like the Mig or the Gripen. I think the fact that the Gripen is similar to the Tejas can be a benefit too. We can probably take some of the tech from a mature fighter like the datalink and use it to upgrade Tejas.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby khukri » 27 Apr 2010 11:26

Carl_T wrote:I hope we just buy a cheap plane like the Mig or the Gripen. I think the fact that the Gripen is similar to the Tejas can be a benefit too. We can probably take some of the tech from a mature fighter like the datalink and use it to upgrade Tejas.


Agree wholeheartedly with Gripen and consequent datalink TOT- in an ideal situation, 2 seater Gripen lead with three LCA's in silent mode and datalink - hugely multiplies LCA's capabilities.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby avinash.rd » 27 Apr 2010 11:28

Jean_M wrote:Thank you, I'm coming here at least once a week but there hasn't been much news on Rafale to post these days (only rumors, once good, once bad, nothing credible).

Some small news anyway:
- Talks with UAE are reaching their final phase: price negociations. We still don't know who wil buy back the 2000-9. As you have already been told, a rumor states that India could buy them instead of updating its own exemplaries. No news either on the technical options (9T M88) and weapon package UAE asked.

- equipments/weapons to be declared operational on Rafale this year:
damocles LDP (10 pods ordered in 2008)
GBU-24 (central point and underwing)
exocet antiship missile
AREOS (reco NG) observation pod

- Brazil still unclear, last news were that we should have more news by the 5th of May...

- Last time I heard of it, Indian Mirage update was said to be a done deal minus this last rumor on UAE's 2000-9... Anyway, It was said Indians asked for a block very similar to -9 for their upgrade.


Jean_M,

I found this below link when I was looking for news on the 9T M88. Currently the Rafale is priced between 60- 95 million Euros. Can you please let me know if Rafale wins the competition, the expected price range (after the renewal of the bid in April) of 108 fighters which will be manufactured in India? Also, any articles on RBE2 AA AESA capabilities (RANGE, detection capabilities). Is it as good as its American counterparts (APG-79, etc)?

http://www.safran-group.com/IMG/pdf/SAF ... rafale.pdf

Thanks,
Avinash

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Viv S » 27 Apr 2010 12:14

Brahmananda wrote: LCA mk-2 will have some major changes including larger wings, more hardpoints, so with changes the GE actually is better placed to win the engine contest as well because it has more thrust and cater better to LCA weight increase.


I haven't heard of any major changes being made to the Tejas' airframe. There was some talk of adding canards to the aircraft but the general consensus was the increase in thrust with the new engine made them unnecessary. Also, EADS has been far more forthcoming on assistance required to reconfigure the aircraft as well as Indian participation in Eurojet.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 27 Apr 2010 13:06

Brahmananda wrote:LCA mk-2 will have some major changes including larger wings, more hardpoints....

Source?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 27 Apr 2010 13:25

Boeing, Lockheed Wait as India Delays Fighter Deal

Lockheed-Martin “plans to update our commercial bid to ensure the best possible value to India,” company spokesman John Giese said in an e-mail. Boeing is “working to provide a compliant response” to India’s request that it extend its bid, spokesman Brian Nelson wrote in an e-mail.

Sweden’s Saab AB will make no change in its bid to sell the Gripen fighter, said Eddy de la Motte, who heads the company’s campaign in India. The other contenders -- Paris-based Dassault Aviation SA, Moscow-based United Aircraft Corp., and the European Aeronautic, Defense & Space Co., which has headquarters in Paris and Munich -- did not comment on their plans.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nrshah » 27 Apr 2010 14:02

Shouldnt GOI also ask for detailed working on TOT and necessary approval from the respective government along with revised bids?? This may save a lot of time during negotiation phase...

just my views... not aware of it being practical...Gurus can throw some light

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shatack » 27 Apr 2010 15:15

Viv S wrote:
Shatack wrote:
I can uderstand your poor knowledges if you are sourcing on fan boys blogs!

wild speculations from senior air force debreif mindef room reported into Air Force Monthly? :rotfl:


Bollocks! Most of this originated from a French journos blog. Tanguy or something I think, who said it came from a French pilot..


had a bad googling experience? try AFM april, :wink:

According to Dominique Pons, the III-V Lab should produce its first X-band or wide-band GaN MMICs this year. Following validation and industrialisation by UMS, series production should get under way by 2009.

http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejourna ... 91651.html

GaN Rbe2 in 2014

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Viv S » 27 Apr 2010 16:03

Shatack wrote:had a bad googling experience? try AFM april,


By all means, go through AFM and tell me, has an AFM journalist covered the incident or do they quote a Rafale pilot?

According to Dominique Pons, the III-V Lab should produce its first X-band or wide-band GaN MMICs this year. Following validation and industrialisation by UMS, series production should get under way by 2009.

http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejourna ... 91651.html

GaN Rbe2 in 2014


I'm obviously not getting through to you. Dassault in all its wisdom, has NOT offered the hypothetical GaN AESA on its Rafale proposal. For the purposes of this debate on Rafale as an option for the MRCA(refer to thread's title), its immaterial.
Last edited by Viv S on 27 Apr 2010 17:03, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Jean_M » 27 Apr 2010 16:37

NRao wrote:Jean_M,

Two questions for you.

1) Does France feel that there is a REAL need (from the French PoV) to invest as a nation in such newer technologies? If yes, why? (just curious)
2) Any news related to the Kaveri engine from France? Gossip or rumors are welcome.

TIA.



1) Are you speaking about 2000-9 upgrade for india or Rafale F3+ new features ? (AESA, METEOR etc...)

2) Last thing I heard was that there was an agreement between SAFRAN (M88 builder) and GTRE (seems it was imposed to DRDO or GTRE by your politics). M88 ECO core should be used for Kaveri, there should be synergies if a 9t thrust M88 upgrade is planned. This could be a good card to play for Rafale, furthermore when bids are to be redone and euro has lost 23 cents since the last offer. (1.56$ in apr 2008 - 1.33$ today)



avinash.rd wrote:
Jean_M wrote:Some small news anyway...


Jean_M,

I found this below link when I was looking for news on the 9T M88. Currently the Rafale is priced between 60- 95 million Euros. Can you please let me know if Rafale wins the competition, the expected price range (after the renewal of the bid in April) of 108 fighters which will be manufactured in India? Also, any articles on RBE2 AA AESA capabilities (RANGE, detection capabilities). Is it as good as its American counterparts (APG-79, etc)?

http://www.safran-group.com/IMG/pdf/SAF ... rafale.pdf

Thanks,
Avinash


Let's assume Rafale flyaway cost is 60M€ - 80M$ (should be a few millions less actually). Your tender is very similar to Brazil's: you need a fair deal of them, want as much TOT as possible and to assemble them on your ground. Looking at Brazil's prices (~6.2bn$ for a first batch of 36 - F18 was tagged 5.7bn$ and Gripen 4.5bn$), the aircraft will cost them (don't die yet) 170M$... I guess this includes TOT, planes, parts, weapons, formation and support for at least 10 years. In the end, the price will depend on what you ask with the plane but it will be between 100M$ (poor package) and 170M$.

Thales RBE2 is said to be on par with SH APG-79 (Thales officials). Both have ~1000 transmitter modules antennas, complex interleaving modes for air and ground simultaneous operations, ECM and LPI features etc. Range is classified as always but has been increased by 50% over PESA's previous range (PESA had a rumored range of 120 km against 1m² target so it should be at least 180km).

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Henrik » 27 Apr 2010 17:05

Jean_M wrote:Let's assume Rafale flyaway cost is 60M€ - 80M$ (should be a few millions less actually). Your tender is very similar to Brazil's: you need a fair deal of them, want as much TOT as possible and to assemble them on your ground. Looking at Brazil's prices (~6.2bn$ for a first batch of 36 - F18 was tagged 5.7bn$ and Gripen 4.5bn$), the aircraft will cost them (don't die yet) 170M$... I guess this includes TOT, planes, parts, weapons, formation and support for at least 10 years. In the end, the price will depend on what you ask with the plane but it will be between 100M$ (poor package) and 170M$


I'm not so sure that price includes everything, maybe for 10 years, but not the total costs.. I might be wrong but:

Feb 24/10: Agence France Presse says that Brazil’s government has officially denied a Folha de Sao Paulo report re: revised bids from the 3 competitors.

If that unsourced report is accurate, the Rafale’s price dropped from $8.2 billion to $6.2 billion, plus another $4 billion dollars in maintenance over the next 3 decades. The JAS-39NG Gripens were reportedly priced at $4.5 billion dollars plus $1.5 billion dollars in maintenance, while the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornets would reportedly cost $5.7 billion plus $1.9 billion in maintenance.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/bra ... ram-04179/


What I'm really trying to say is that the total price for the Rafale should be $10,2 - $12,2 billion, the SH $7,6 billion and the Gripen $6 billion.

My personal guess is that Dassault sells the Rafale at a discount (maybe even at loss) and takes it back in the form of more expensive maintenance (spare parts etc.)?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby avinash.rd » 27 Apr 2010 17:30

Jean_M wrote:
Let's assume Rafale flyaway cost is 60M€ - 80M$ (should be a few millions less actually). Your tender is very similar to Brazil's: you need a fair deal of them, want as much TOT as possible and to assemble them on your ground. Looking at Brazil's prices (~6.2bn$ for a first batch of 36 - F18 was tagged 5.7bn$ and Gripen 4.5bn$), the aircraft will cost them (don't die yet) 170M$... I guess this includes TOT, planes, parts, weapons, formation and support for at least 10 years. In the end, the price will depend on what you ask with the plane but it will be between 100M$ (poor package) and 170M$.

Thales RBE2 is said to be on par with SH APG-79 (Thales officials). Both have ~1000 transmitter modules antennas, complex interleaving modes for air and ground simultaneous operations, ECM and LPI features etc. Range is classified as always but has been increased by 50% over PESA's previous range (PESA had a rumored range of 120 km against 1m² target so it should be at least 180km).


I believe India is ready to spend $12 billion on planes+ToT. This doesn't include maintenance. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Also, I wonder to what extent IAF expects the TOT?? I believe they want a complete technology of AESA also. I mean the technologies of all the parts that come with the fighter.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby JimmyJ » 27 Apr 2010 17:31

Henrik wrote:My personal guess is that Dassault sells the Rafale at a discount (maybe even at loss) and takes it back in the form of more expensive maintenance (spare parts etc.)?


Wouldn't life time cost take a consideration at the parts pricing too?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Henrik » 27 Apr 2010 17:36

JimmyJ wrote:
Henrik wrote:My personal guess is that Dassault sells the Rafale at a discount (maybe even at loss) and takes it back in the form of more expensive maintenance (spare parts etc.)?


Wouldn't life time cost take a consideration at the parts pricing too?

You mean like Rafale uses more spare parts then it's competitors? Well it's known that Rafale has a much higher operational costs..

I was just guessing really..

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby sunilpatel » 27 Apr 2010 17:44

avinash.rd wrote:
Jean_M wrote:

Also, I wonder to what extent IAF expects the TOT?? I believe they want a complete technology of AESA also. I mean the technologies of all the parts that come with the fighter.


Though i haven't read teh RFI for MRCA.. :D but IMO, AESA is not part of the Must requirements...
cause before 2-3 months there wwere post that, india will not consider the future upgration path, it will consider the jets, which sent for fly testing in india... and if AESA is part of MUST requirement, then only f- tweens will qualify...
So, TOT is far away for AESA...
i think, it will be decided after finalizing the candidate..

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 27 Apr 2010 18:06

Jean_M wrote:1) Are you speaking about 2000-9 upgrade for india or Rafale F3+ new features ? (AESA, METEOR etc...)


I am talking of the entire, latest-and-greatest, effort within France. The point being unless there are internal reasonS no R&D can occur. (I suspect the foreign sales of the Rafale (as an example) are to recover some of the R&D cost of that air craft and therefore such sales really cannot sustain funding for more leading edge efforts.)

So France will need some political motivation to fund any new technologies, since there really are no military reasons.

So, are there any efforts within France to fund something new - not newer missiles, etc? A new air craft - say that will fly against the PAK-FA (as an example)?

Or is the will to fund such efforts drying out (for good reasons)?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Henrik » 27 Apr 2010 18:53

NRao wrote:
Jean_M wrote:1) Are you speaking about 2000-9 upgrade for india or Rafale F3+ new features ? (AESA, METEOR etc...)


I am talking of the entire, latest-and-greatest, effort within France. The point being unless there are internal reasonS no R&D can occur. (I suspect the foreign sales of the Rafale (as an example) are to recover some of the R&D cost of that air craft and therefore such sales really cannot sustain funding for more leading edge efforts.)

So France will need some political motivation to fund any new technologies, since there really are no military reasons.

So, are there any efforts within France to fund something new - not newer missiles, etc? A new air craft - say that will fly against the PAK-FA (as an example)?

Or is the will to fund such efforts drying out (for good reasons)?

In Europe, everything is more and more about pan-european cooperation, i.e EADS, Neuron, Meteor etc.. It's partly because more advanced tech requires more money, and today that's quite a lot of money which is the reason we see more and more consolidation (India and Russia on PAK-FA, F-35 etc.)

If we take the Neuron projekt as an example. The reason we spend money on projects like Neuron is perhaps not that we will be building a fifth-gen anytime soon, but more to keep our brains up to date for future use, and to keep our level of competitiveness on top. The tech from the Neuron will find it's way into the Rafale, Gripen and perhaps EF as well.
Just because Europe isn't facing any military threat at the moment doesn't mean it's an everlasting peace, and a future threat against any E.U nation is likely to affect the whole continent.
This is why I believe that the next big advanced fighter project will be a true pan-european project including more nations and companies. There just won't be a need for different E.U nations to develop their own fighter jets, instead shared costs and shared technologies makes perfect sense since we are all likely to be part of the same conflicts. The Neuron is just the tip of an iceberg in terms of future cooperative projects that will emerge. It's also the will of the politicians since it keeps the costs down.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Brahmananda » 27 Apr 2010 20:20

Gaur wrote:
Brahmananda wrote:LCA mk-2 will have some major changes including larger wings, more hardpoints....

Source?


http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... ark-2.html

"The LCA Mark 2 will have a bigger and more powerful engine, the fuselage will be changed, it will have bigger wings, and the aircraft will be more aerodynamic," says Hindustan Aeronautics chairman Ashok Baweja, whose company manufactures the fighter. "There are upgrades down the line in every global fighter programme and that is the case with the Tejas as well."

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Brahmananda » 27 Apr 2010 20:38

cost per flight hour
F-16 around $6000
EF around 14000 euros
Rafale: $16,000
F/A-18E: $10,000
Gripen: $4,500

Rafale is very expensive to operate , gripen NG the lowest in single engined fighters and SH in the twin engined fighters.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 27 Apr 2010 20:42

Brahmananda wrote:http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... ark-2.html

"The LCA Mark 2 will have a bigger and more powerful engine, the fuselage will be changed, it will have bigger wings, and the aircraft will be more aerodynamic," says Hindustan Aeronautics chairman Ashok Baweja, whose company manufactures the fighter. "There are upgrades down the line in every global fighter programme and that is the case with the Tejas as well."

Thanks. I did not know that. I was under the impression that the fuselage and wings would be basically left unchanged. I thought only intakes needed to be changed (because of change in engine). However considering that a higher thrust engine would result in more stress on the airframe and wing, perhaps HAL is using this opportunity to further refine the airframe.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Bharadwaj » 27 Apr 2010 21:25

Brahmananda wrote:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... ark-2.html

"The LCA Mark 2 will have a bigger and more powerful engine, the fuselage will be changed, it will have bigger wings, and the aircraft will be more aerodynamic," says Hindustan Aeronautics chairman Ashok Baweja, whose company manufactures the fighter. "There are upgrades down the line in every global fighter programme and that is the case with the Tejas as well."


There were stories countering this and indicating there would not be much of a change to the airframe-Not able to locate it now.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 27 Apr 2010 21:47

Cain Marko wrote:So what now? Is this a ploy to allow a further increase in budget? "Oh wot to do, everything is so slow - now prices have increased even more" = $ 15 billion budget wonlee. We thusly accommodate the otherwise impossible purchase of fancy toys such as the Shornet, EF, Rafale!

Or perhaps this is a chance for the IAF to grab the Gripen and for Saab to show just how considerate it is by not jacking up the price.

What a bloody circus!

CM.


Come now CM..how is this a ploy to jack up prices ? has the IAF finished its trials so that it could submit its report by April 28th ? Its not like the MoD forced the IAF to accomodate the Gripen NG by sending pilots to Sweden and then asking Saab to come to India for trials once again..

the only way that those commercial bids would've been valid would've been if the IAF had finished all its trials (summer trials being hte major concern) in summer 2009 and then taken its time to prepare its report through the end of 2009 and have it ready and submitted by early this year. That way, they'd have done a down-select based on IAF recommendations and then opened the commercial bids which would've still been valid.

As it stands, Saab isn't updating its bid, so the prices haven't gone up (and with the Euro's fall against the dollar, in real terms, their supplier costs would've gone down as well) and the other Euro contenders may be able to revise their bids downwards for similar reasons. the US and Russian fighters OTOH may see price revisions moving their costs up..

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby bhavik » 27 Apr 2010 23:15

AND what stopped IAF from completing trials earlier?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby aditya.agd » 28 Apr 2010 01:15

We do not know when will the actual order be placed. I hope that may be soon, but I do not see any order being placed before late 2011 or early 2012 on an optimistic note.

My preference will obviously be either rafale or Typhoon...... F16, F18, Saab are prone to sanctions. mig35 may be an economical choice but then we will be completely dependent on one source. I would prefer to induct Tejas in large numbers because that is indegenous.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby b_patel » 28 Apr 2010 02:44

My preference will obviously be either Rafale or Typhoon...... F16, F18, Saab are prone to sanctions. mig35 may be an economical choice but then we will be completely dependent on one source. I would prefer to induct Tejas in large numbers because that is indigenous.

I agree, its too bad that this will be a political decision though. Hopefully they choose the most capable aircraft regardless of the cost. Honestly, we can afford it might as well buy the best plane considering they will be our high end fighters.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 28 Apr 2010 03:55

b_patel wrote: Hopefully they choose the most capable aircraft regardless of the cost.


Cost is an important consideration too! Suppose the most expensive X plane (to buy and operate) is 1.5 times more expensive than cheapest Y plane. For the same price we can have 200 Y planes to 126 X planes. Given the contestants in MMRCA are not very far behind each other, 200 of the "inferior" kind might actually be a stronger force than 126 of the "superior" kinds!

Oh and by the look of things expensive plane X seems to be more than 1.5 times more expensive!

P.S. I am a big fan of the Rafale (plane X is this case)! I am waiting for somebody to show me the light that a single Rafale is a match for 2 Gripens (say!). I actually want to see the EF or Rafale in the Tippy grey, but can't convince myself how they are going to be a better buy! Don't forget PLAF has 2.5 times more fighters than us and no matter what, there are always strength in numbers. It has been proven over and over and over again, except in the case of Israelis who could ground every air force around them with preemptive strikes. We on the other hand wont be able to do that at the moment!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 28 Apr 2010 03:59

Brahmananda wrote:cost per flight hour
F-16 around $6000
EF around 14000 euros
Rafale: $16,000
F/A-18E: $10,000
Gripen: $4,500

Rafale is very expensive to operate , gripen NG the lowest in single engined fighters and SH in the twin engined fighters.

I can never understand if SH is part of MRCA then why not Su 35BM too? I mean its the nearabout same weight category as Su 30mki. I remember Enqyoob mentioning that its a 60s design. Even there were reports about IRST being put on fuel tank as their was no space available on it. Imagine 2022 when MRCA would have full bloomed having this fat panting lady with no scope of integration of new techs. Plus the constant fear of sanctions.

The same with Gripen as its same weight class as Tejas. Though I am happy Gripen NG is coming for trials. LSP3 will be waiting with its radar to see from how far away it can detect the saab product :twisted:
will give nice idea to IAF about "kaun kitne paani mein hai". 8)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 28 Apr 2010 04:48

Manish_Sharma wrote:I can never understand if SH is part of MRCA then why not Su 35BM too?

Very Good question!

Manish_Sharma wrote: Imagine 2022 when MRCA would have full bloomed having this fat panting lady with no scope of integration of new techs.


How do you say that?! Which of the airframes is not cramped up?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 28 Apr 2010 05:09

Perhaps with very, very few exceptions, all of these questions have been dealt with (unsatisfactorily?) in long lost M/MRCA threads.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 28 Apr 2010 06:55

Boeing, Lockheed Wait as India Delays Fighter Deal (Update1)
India’s Air Force is still conducting flight trials for competing jets from Boeing, Lockheed Martin Corp. and four European companies, two years after accepting price quotes for 126 warplanes that the government said should cost about $10 billion. The bids expire April 28 and the Defense Ministry has asked manufacturers to submit offers for an additional year, its spokesman, Sitanshu Kar, said in a phone interview in New Delhi. :cry:
“By the recent track record, the cost of these aircraft generally goes up by 7 percent to 10 percent each year,” Suman said in a phone interview :-? .

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Brahmananda » 28 Apr 2010 11:28

http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getA ... emID=16843

The block 2 super hornet will have IRST in its fuesalage and not on the drop tank, the drop tank was used during testing.
The SH is not a 60's design the f-17 cobra is, the SH first flew in 1995, a year later than the EF. The SH design phase began in the 80's just like the Rafale, EF.

SH is lighter than the su-35 bm. EF is just as prone to sanctions as the f-16, f-18 and NG because even EF has lots of critical US made parts and with out US tot approval we wont get full-tot on the EF as well. Rafale is very expensive and mig-35 well is lame. comes down to the NG vs SH because they are lowest cost aircraft in their engine classes.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Venu » 28 Apr 2010 11:54

Brahmananda wrote:Rafale is very expensive and mig-35 well is lame. comes down to the NG vs SH because they are lowest cost aircraft in their engine classes.


Don't want to flock the dead horse again but, can you please enlighten us on how MiG-35 is lame :eek: ?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby narayana » 28 Apr 2010 11:55

Brahmananda wrote:EF is just as prone to sanctions as the f-16, f-18 and NG because even EF has lots of critical US made parts and with out US tot approval we wont get full-tot on the EF as well.


Yep,don't forget the Sea King saga after our bum detonations.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Brahmananda » 28 Apr 2010 11:57

lame because its full scale production wont begin till late 2013 or early 2014, lame because it wont arrive in india before 2015/2016.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nrshah » 28 Apr 2010 12:04

Brahmananda wrote:lame because its full scale production wont begin till late 2013 or early 2014, lame because it wont arrive in india before 2015/2016.


Not to disagree with schedule of Mig 35, How confident are we of the MMCRA being awarded in the scheduled time frame and subsequently not canceled because one of the looser claims process were not transparent and unfair or some unnamed letter suggesting some fees being paid or something like it appears....

But even if it does, it wont be a problem... we will take FMS route with Unkil (current hot favorite)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Venu » 28 Apr 2010 12:08

Brahmananda wrote:lame because its full scale production wont begin till late 2013 or early 2014, lame because it wont arrive in india before 2015/2016.


Fair enough. And oh btw, didn't you say that it will finally boil down to NG and SH.

How many NG's are there flying now? And why isn't lame, as per your logic?

I read in shiv's blog that - some one in Saab said they are worrying about taking the Demo to India for trials because its after all a prototype and they have only one. Isn't Gripen Demo a test bed for testing the technologies that will go into NG when it finally comes?

I am great supporter of NG and really want to see NG in IAF colors. But I feel that people are always subjective when they complain about MiG. MiG has been a really good aircraft and is definitely not lame.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 28 Apr 2010 13:13

Great!Now the LCA Mk-2 will for all practical purposes be a new "enlarged" design,which going by the time frame it has been developed so far,will appear only around 2015,the same time when the 5th-gen PAK-FA is supposed to begin entering service with Russia.From earlier reports,i was said that the EJ-200 did not require a redesign of the fuselage,etc,but that the GE engine did.Now if the fuselage,wings etc., are going to be redesigned and "larger",it stands to reason that the aircraft's weight will also increase defeating the very purpose of the new engine-to provide more power within the same existing parameters of size,etc.! The logic of this is absurd.The LCA is going to break world records for the longest ever runing programme of any aircraft.

The implications upon the MMRCA contest is major.THis deal has to be wrapped up asap,but even here we now see another delay of a "year".Veterans in the gobal aerospace industry predicted just this,that it would take several years for the IAF/GOI to arrive at a final decision on the MMRCA.Therefore,as VAYU,Force and other journals have been noting,extra buys of SU-30MKIs are becoming commonplace in meeting the shortfall in the IAF's numbers.It also is why there is news indicating some apparent momentum on the purchase of second-hand M-2000s,not an issue if it is done being seen as "more of the same",and the major upgrades of the M-2000s in service and the second-hand ones.It may be that about 100+ aircraft will be purchased/upgraded,which will be the fastest way in which to beef up the IAF's strength and capabilities.With extra Flankers and upgraded M-2000s,"what me worry" if the MMRCA decision like "Proud Mary" keeps "rollin' on"!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Brahmananda » 28 Apr 2010 14:21

well looking at the time frame, today the old bids expire, new bids will be valid for one year as per Govt. request, looking at the shortages we face, the deal will be sealed before same time next year. SAAB claims deliveries can begin by 2013.

http://www.gripen.com/en/GripenFighter/ ... _india.htm

concerning foul cries after the deal has been awarded, that all depends on how transparent the shortlisting is. If there are more delays beyond mid next year, the IAF will want an aircraft to be delivered ASAP and only the SH can be delivered in respectable numbers in a short period. Boeing claims 18th aircraft will land in India 54 months after the deal is signed. Can the mig be produced at such rates considering they cant even begin production till 2013 or 2014, i certainly dont think IAF is gonna delay the contract for so many years and wait till the first mig lands in 2015 or 2016, the deal will be signed by
early 2011. If negotiations fail, they may cancel the MRCA and go FMS with the US. depends on how much bs all the contenders will throw at us. we just have to rise above it and order a good aircraft that can be delivered in good numbers at the earliest possible time, delays will only demotivate the IAF because why get a 4.5 gen aircraft when by 2015 5thgen f-35 is available, they might as well get the f-35 with FMS even if with limited TOT.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby avinash.rd » 28 Apr 2010 14:30

I believe we are under estimating the capabilities of F-16. Look at its service records with Israel Air Force and the technology f-16IN comes with. Also, we don't have any supporters for F-16 in this forum. :)

Can anybody tell me in what ways Gripen is better than F-16?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 28 Apr 2010 15:00

Lockheed Martin's V.P Business Development for India Mr. Orville Prins speaks about F-16IN and MMRCA.



F-16IN simulator debrief..

Part1
[youtube]zqz4TGPJkS4&feature=related[/youtube]

Part2
[youtube]Es9waOzuXvU&feature=related[/youtube]


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