MRCA News and Discussion

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 17 Jul 2010 23:07

Manuji,
To the best of my knowledge,there is an E.U arms embargo on China ! IMHO,they can't even do away with the embargo as the U.S would pressure the E.U no end to deny such tech to China! With E.U in trouble, it would look upto the U.S more than evere;since the end of Cold War! lets remember that the U.S is the richest country and its clout is not only military based but also economic in nature!

But there are three European contenders! Atleast one dissatisfied or rejected manufacturer will be approached by Pak and chances are high that they will buy a European aircraft! (They already have SAAB AWACS and hence Gripen will be a fore-runner)! Let's see if India can prevent that from happening!

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 17 Jul 2010 23:26

naird wrote: 12 Billion ??????

Craig - As per reports the current Brazilian deal for 36 Rafale aircraft is going to cost in the range of 8 - 10 Billion dollars. This includes Spares , infrastructure set up , possibly ToT , etc. What makes you think, it will only be 12 Billion dollars. Similarly Saudi EF for 36 aircrafts was costing i believe 7-8 Billion euro's - Saudis has a option to go for 36 more making it 72 aircrafts.

If we have 279 B doesnt mean that we should spend left and right --- We have Navy and Army besides Airforce. Further we also have developmental activities going on. I suggest you to read the article 'The defence deals that bankrupted Greece' -- a good read.

Let me know if i am missing anything.

You didn't catch the "HUMOR ME" part of my post... You stated that Europeans and French planes are "too expensive" to that my response of "TONGUE IN CHEEK, Sarcasm" that the whole world is out to get India, as India has over $279 Billion in Cash Reserves... The rest is history as they say!!!

I'm well aware of Greece and their problems. $10 - $12 Billion, is a figure that is listed by MOD, not out of my Musharraf! The french were able to bring their prices down, as this was a political decision by Sarkozy! I could care less if they deal goes through for $10 Billion or $30 Billion, as long as The CORRECT plane is chosen for the needs of IAF, and with CORRECT political showdown setting the stage for India in its quest to be a "world power," and the rest is HISTORY as they say!

naird · Post by **naird** » 18 Jul 2010 02:00

Craig Alpert wrote:
naird wrote: 12 Billion ??????

Craig - As per reports the current Brazilian deal for 36 Rafale aircraft is going to cost in the range of 8 - 10 Billion dollars. This includes Spares , infrastructure set up , possibly ToT , etc. What makes you think, it will only be 12 Billion dollars. Similarly Saudi EF for 36 aircrafts was costing i believe 7-8 Billion euro's - Saudis has a option to go for 36 more making it 72 aircrafts.

If we have 279 B doesnt mean that we should spend left and right --- We have Navy and Army besides Airforce. Further we also have developmental activities going on. I suggest you to read the article 'The defence deals that bankrupted Greece' -- a good read.

Let me know if i am missing anything.
You didn't catch the "HUMOR ME" part of my post... You stated that Europeans and French planes are "too expensive" to that my response of "TONGUE IN CHEEK, Sarcasm" that the whole world is out to get India, as India has over $279 Billion in Cash Reserves... The rest is history as they say!!!

I'm well aware of Greece and their problems. $10 - $12 Billion, is a figure that is listed by MOD, not out of my Musharraf! The french were able to bring their prices down, as this was a political decision by Sarkozy! I could care less if they deal goes through for $10 Billion or $30 Billion, as long as The CORRECT plane is chosen for the needs of IAF, and with CORRECT political showdown setting the stage for India in its quest to be a "world power," and the rest is HISTORY as they say!

According to defence analysts and news reports , it is estimated that India will be spending about 100 Billion dollars on defence deals. Keeping that in mind - if we are spending 30 B dollars on just aircraft acquisition, then what will we do about other defence deals !! IMO MoD will not go for the deal if its overtly expensive as is the case with EF or Rafale !! and hence my point.

I didnt get your point about Sarkozy -- where and when did the french reduce prices ?? Are you refering about the Mirage upgrade deal ?

And i wasnt refering to the economic problems of greece -- i was refering to a article that appeared in wall street journal. The name of the article was 'Submarine deal that bankrupted greece' or something like that !!

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 18 Jul 2010 02:09

According to defence analysts and news reports , it is estimated that India will be spending about 100 Billion dollars on defence deals

I hope this is not testament to the failure of DRDO to develop products for the military.

If you think of the amount of grain and raw materials India has to export to earn 100 billion, it feels like a total waste of money.

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 18 Jul 2010 02:37

According to defence analysts and news reports , it is estimated that India will be spending about 100 Billion dollars on defence deals. Keeping that in mind - if we are spending 30 B dollars on just aircraft acquisition, then what will we do about other defence deals !! IMO MoD will not go for the deal if its overtly expensive as is the case with EF or Rafale !! and hence my point.

I didnt get your point about Sarkozy -- where and when did the french reduce prices ?? Are you refering about the Mirage upgrade deal ?

And i wasnt refering to the economic problems of greece -- i was refering to a article that appeared in wall street journal. The name of the article was 'Submarine deal that bankrupted greece' or something like that !!

Hmmm...Nairji, Craig is right! The French did reduce the price tag for the Brazilian fighter deal! According to one report,it was 7.2-8.2 billion for 36 fighters plus support, basic ToT, training e.t.c! But Sarkozy reduced it by 2-3 billion dollars! Exact figures are not available in the open!

IMHO,100 billion dollars is not OMG, how large!!! Given the circumstances its kinda O.K/adequate! And I think most of the money will go for fighters, UCAVs and UAVs as they are the most potent weapons!

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 18 Jul 2010 02:47

naird wrote:
Craig Alpert wrote:^^ I guess you didn't get the memo... India has a $279 Billion dollar in CASH RESERVES!!! I think $12 Billion should suffice to Bail out Europeans or France!!!!
12 Billion ??????

Craig - As per reports the current Brazilian deal for 36 Rafale aircraft is going to cost in the range of 8 - 10 Billion dollars. This includes Spares , infrastructure set up , possibly ToT , etc. What makes you think, it will only be 12 Billion dollars. Similarly Saudi EF for 36 aircrafts was costing i believe 7-8 Billion euro's - Saudis has a option to go for 36 more making it 72 aircrafts.

If we have 279 B doesnt mean that we should spend left and right --- We have Navy and Army besides Airforce. Further we also have developmental activities going on. I suggest you to read the article 'The defence deals that bankrupted Greece' -- a good read.

Let me know if i am missing anything.

I believe you are wrong about the Eurofighter deal (Saudi)! It was not 36+36 but 72 +72!

Saudi ordered 72 tyhoons for some 4.5 billion pounds!

naird · Post by **naird** » 18 Jul 2010 03:24

^^Apologies yes you are right. I am little behind. The initial deal was thought to be for 48 aircrafts which was supposed to be raised to 72 air crafts. But i see that now the deal was signed for 72 aircrafts for 8.9 B dollars.
http://www.bi-me.com/main.php?id=13178&t=1

But i doubt if it includes ToT costs , etc.

naird · Post by **naird** » 18 Jul 2010 03:35

Kanan wrote: Hmmm...Nairji, Craig is right! The French did reduce the price tag for the Brazilian fighter deal! According to one report,it was 7.2-8.2 billion for 36 fighters plus support, basic ToT, training e.t.c! But Sarkozy reduced it by 2-3 billion dollars! Exact figures are not available in the open!

IMHO,100 billion dollars is not OMG, how large!!! Given the circumstances its kinda O.K/adequate! And I think most of the money will go for fighters, UCAVs and UAVs as they are the most potent weapons!

Kanan - Can you provide a source where it says Frenchies reduced the price ? The french are notoriously pricey , i doubt that they have reduced so much !

With regards to your point about its ok/adequate -- well defence is not the only thing that is going on in India -- there are other things and maybe more important things going on in India. So lets leave it at that.

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 18 Jul 2010 03:43

Hmm ...... Agreed, they demanded2.2 billion to upgrade 51 Mirages! but seems they did reduce the price for Rafale! Here are a few links! I also remeber reading it on some print media!

http://www.brazzilmag.com/component/con ... count.html

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/bra ... ram-04179/

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 18 Jul 2010 17:05

This link says Rafale can lift 140% weight in addition to its own weight. More than much bigger F-15. Wonder if we buy it with tot can it weight reducing techs would be useful in reducing the weight of AMCA, Then in 10 years time Kaveri would also be much more developed to power AMCA:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... afale.html

The Rafale is designed for day or night covert low-level penetration, and can carry a maximum of 9.5t of external ordinance, equal to the much larger F-15E. With a basic empty weight of 10.3t, an internal fuel capacity of 4.7t and a maximum take-off weight of 24.5t, the Rafale can lift 140% of additional load, above its own empty weight, into combat.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 18 Jul 2010 18:50

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novi_Avion Single engine Rafale

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 18 Jul 2010 18:54

O.T

Defence Minister Peter MacKay made it official, publicly committing Canadian taxpayers to a $16 billion deal for the purchase and maintenance of 65 F-35s.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editoria ... ong-planes

wow.. $16 billion for 65!

Thats whopping.. And I thought the mmrca deal was the 'mother of all defense deals'... There are some mega deals flying all around the place..makes the mmrca deal sound almost strangely reasonable .

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 18 Jul 2010 19:02

Manish_Sharma wrote:This link says Rafale can lift 140% weight in addition to its own weight. More than much bigger F-15. Wonder if we buy it with tot can it weight reducing techs would be useful in reducing the weight of AMCA, Then in 10 years time Kaveri would also be much more developed to power AMCA:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... afale.html

Rafale software upgrades are scheduled to take place every two years, a complete set of new-generation sensors is set for 2012 and a full mid-life upgrade is planned for 2020.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 18 Jul 2010 19:12

rafale aesa news :

New horizons for AESA radars

Air&Cosmos 2226, page 26, july 9

Thales prepares the future in thinking over future radar technologies

Thales intends to maintain its position as a European pioneer in Aesa radar technology. This place, gained thanks to the development of AESA version of the Rafale front tip radar , will materialize in August, with deliveries of the first RBE2-AESA in standard production.
[...]

Program:

If its RBE2-AESA enters in industrial phase, Thales intends to maintain its lead in providing some technological bricks considered crucial to broaden the scope of active antennas. This new roadmap is built around two key technologies: gallium nitride (GaN), a broadband semiconductor called to prevail for future emission-reception modules of radars with active antenna, and silicon-germanium (SiGe), a low power semiconductor, whose use in the control floors of the beam of active antennas will significantly reduce their size.

Compared to the current gallium arsenide (GaAs), GaN offers much more power and works with very large bandwidth. This power, coupled with a sharp reduction in heat loss, lets consider very compact antennas since it will be possible to obtain the same power with smaller modules. The SiGe, itself, allows to regroup on a same low-power component several functions of phase control and amplitude control, reducing the overall size of the antenna.

Potential applications are diverse: In the medium term, it is expected that Rafale’s RBE2 and SPECTRA share the same antennas. In the longer term, one considers the application of conform antennas to the fuselage and their use as a single “entity” which would act as radar and electronic warfare, 360 degrees around the aircraft.

A boost from DGA (French MoD)

Air&Cosmos 2226, page 26, july 9

Some bricks are or have already been the subject of preliminary studies funded by DGA.

It is the case of SiGe chips, whose feasibility has been explored for applications in electronic warfare under the PEA (upstream syllabus) Mistral. The work Matrice about electronic collection (Air & Cosmos 2213) continue to evaluate the potential of SiGe to consolidate on a single chip all the commands needed to control and analyze radar beams.

As for gallium nitride, the PEA Incas (integration of new capacities in Spectra) examine its integration in Spectra for 5th tranche Rafale.

On the other hand, under the European research program Korrigan, the UMS foundry (which produces the current GaAs modules for the RBE2-AESA) has already produced its first GaN component. A certification campaign for military aviation standards is underway and should be completed in 2011.

[/quote]

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 19 Jul 2010 10:36

MiG-29K sales might tip scales for Mig-35

In India, the adoption of the MiG-29K by the navy may influence the air force in the selection of its land-based medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) fighter, for which the related MiG-35 is one of six competitors.

Sure makes sense in the IN & IAF 'commonality' factor..

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 19 Jul 2010 11:50

This could be a bargaining package purchase by india in case of Mig 35 not selected by India (most likely), i see another order su30 in same category for same factor.

Look at the RFP is out in recent time.

1 Submarines
2 Ground Airborne Radars
3 Missiles(SAM)
4 Artillery
5 MiG 29k & Su 30
6 Talwar 3 add on to already 6 (not sure)
7 P-8i
8 C 130J

This all compensate looser of mmrca

In my view Rafale Or Eurofighter bit of thinking of Gripen may be mmrca winner

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Jul 2010 12:01

I have also been advocating cost effectiveness and logistics unification for MMRCA and Mig-35 fits the bill quite well.
If it makes it in MMRCA it would be good for the IAF in its long term streamlining of logistics beyond the usual lip service.

prabhug · Post by **prabhug** » 19 Jul 2010 14:10

I always fantasized of getting Rafale with EF-2000(At least tranche 2)engines. This would someway reduce our logistics and get super cruise .I understand this can never happen but just wanted to know how realistic is this.

Cheers

Prabhu.G

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 19 Jul 2010 15:47

Austin wrote:I have also been advocating cost effectiveness and logistics unification for MMRCA and Mig-35 fits the bill quite well.
If it makes it in MMRCA it would be good for the IAF in its long term streamlining of logistics beyond the usual lip service.

Why put in everything in one basket India already overdose with Russian hardware

for now other aircraft i mention above earlier is strong contenders

Think differently

sunnyv · Post by **sunnyv** » 19 Jul 2010 17:02

Kartik ,
Few months back you posted article from Air-Cosmos covering "Weapon trials of so called Mig35" same that Igor covered later .
Want to know did that article mention about
- Addition of Fibre optic serial buses which IAF did spell out once as its preference .
- Did Phaztron gave a word about , addition of extra radar mode (Weather mode possibly) which IAF asked .

And last question is regarding MICA missile - You mentioned at Col Shiv's Blog in Mirage upgrade news that

also reputedly, the MICA EM is very hard to jam, and reputedly has a higher Probability of kill than even the AMRAAM

Can you explain briefly - better in terms of AMRAAM ????

Not to derail the thread , you can write a PM to me .

Thanks

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 19 Jul 2010 18:24

LM-HAL partnership on F-16 on display at Farnborough airshow..

A specialist defence news website, globalnews.net, has said that American giant Lockheed Martin is likely to display an aerial refueling device at the airshow, which was co-developed with HAL for the F-16 fighter aircraft. 'This makes it the first time an Indian company was involved in a high-technology sub-system development of the F-16 fighter aircraft,' it said in a recent report.

Lockheed Martin's intention to display the device at Farnborough 'was to show the high tech capabilities of its Indian partner and expose the world market for F-16 aircraft to the possibility of buying F-16 sub-systems from India', the website said. 'With over 500 F-16 fighters in service with 22 countries, the Indian probe-and-drogue refueling system could find a wide market provided it was tested and certified by the military aviation authorities in the buyer countries.' The F-16 is one of the six jets in contention for an Indian Air Force order for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft in a deal valued at $10 billion.

http://sify.com/news/india-pakistan-sho ... ihich.html

vina · Post by **vina** » 19 Jul 2010 19:59

Mig-35 fits the bill quite well

Problem is that it breaks down more often than Sienna Miller and is more high maintenance than her as well!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Jul 2010 21:46

vina wrote:Problem is that it breaks down more often than Sienna Miller and is more high maintenance than her as well!

Ofcourse all claims needs to be backed up by some statistics , else its just what they say

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 19 Jul 2010 21:50

Another factor to consider is India's domestic political scene. Would Congress be comfortable inking a $10+ billion dollar deal with US? There will be strong opposition and allegations of a sell-out from not only the Left, but also from large parts of India's strategic community, many of whom are still very wary of the US, strategic partnership non-withstanding. The deal may provide the fodder that the opposition needs for the next general election.

A deal with Europe or Russia is much safer politically. Just one more factor to think about...

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 20 Jul 2010 02:19

Austin wrote:I have also been advocating cost effectiveness and logistics unification for MMRCA and Mig-35 fits the bill quite well.
If it makes it in MMRCA it would be good for the IAF in its long term streamlining of logistics beyond the usual lip service.

One key problem with MiG-35 comes in the form of BVRAAMs! I recall that the IAF got a bashing from CAG in his assessment that IAF got substandard stuff in the form of R-77s! IAF, as far as I recall had ordered 1600 R-77s and mostly uses them on Su-30 MKI and MiG-29! Hence I feel IAF would go for a western aircraft as that gives us a chance to use AMRAAM, Sidewinder and later may be Meteor! As you yourself said in a post before, diversification seems to be the keyword rather than standardisation!

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 20 Jul 2010 03:11

vina wrote:
Mig-35 fits the bill quite well
Problem is that it breaks down more often than Sienna Miller and is more high maintenance than her as well!

That is highly unlikely after new engine(smokeless) , avionics and airframe

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 20 Jul 2010 03:16

There seems to be a disconnect between what IAF wants out of this deal and what the GoI wants.

IAF wants an aircraft that it can acquire in numbers to not only keep squadron strength from falling, but to help increase that to 42. It probably envisages many more numbers than the initial 126. IAF also wants something easy and cheap to operate and maintain. It wants high tech (AESA) to come in as part of the deal. And it would want to incorporate its existing arsenal of AAMs and other desi tech into that plane (to customize the plane).

This points to a single-engine fighter, similar to IAF's initial choice of M2K. The planes closest to that spec are the Gripen and the F-16. Choosing Gripen wouldn't buy India any geopolitical goodwill, and it comes with the baggage of a US engine. Buying F-16 would make US happy, but then the Pakis operate a not too dissimilar version in the block 52, and getting it to work with Russian and Astra AAMs and incorporating other desi tech into it could be tricky. Not to mention the displeasure of having to deal with all the end-user agreements etc.

Mig-35 is the cheapest of the two-engined fighters, and Russians would give almost anything that the Indians asked them to in order to win this deal. But IAF is wary of the Russians, since Russian equipment has always given them service and maintenance headaches. IAF already has access to Russian tech via Su30MKI, Mig-29K and FFGA. What new tech would this deal provide? Probably not much.

The Typhoon and Rafale, while great fighters, would be very costly to buy initially, and to operate. They do offer great geopolitical and military advantages, especially the Typhoon. 12 billion dollars would probably buy only half as many as IAF would want. The F/A-18, while somewhat cheaper than the above two, is a much older airframe. If one is splurging and buying a two-engine plane, better to splurge a little more and buy the latest tech. F/A-18 also has all the disadvantages of buying from US.

The only way out then, to make both IAF happy and for GoI to fulfill its aim of leveraging this deal for geopolitical advantages, is to escalate the total price of this deal to close to $18-20 billion. That would get IAF the number of airframes it wants, and would allow GoI complete freedom to choose the deal that is most geo-politically advantageous.

Will the Indian govt. be willing to spend that much on this deal? We should ask that if it didn't intend to, then why include the two-engined planes in the fray in the first place? GoI must have been looking ahead and asking itself - can we afford this deal considering that the time-frame is 2014-2020, with 8% average minimum GDP growth? The answer it came up with must have been a Yes.

The only other explanation is that GoI always intended for a single-engined fighter to win the deal, but took the others along for a ride. Just doesn't make sense, and the manufacturers spending hundreds of millions on trials are not exactly fools. They must have received an assurance that their products would be considered if they pass technical trials.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 20 Jul 2010 03:44

^^More than Geopolitical it should be new tech benefits to be derived from the deal especially the engine & GaN chips tech. Both will be crucial for AMCA success too.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 20 Jul 2010 04:33

FWIW (one can never say on the internet who is fibbing and who isn’t), this poster on Keypub had this to say about the MRCA trials at Leh

First of all, now I work at the Brazilian Congress, exactly at Senate's Foreign Affairs and National Defence Committee, and I have a lot of inside info about Brazilian affairs. At that time, Gripen C/D hadn't arrived at India and all pro-Gripen forums said that it was amongst the better performance planes... Only four twin engined planes flew from Leh at that time.

To be truthful, the Indian Air Force Commander visited Brazil a few days ago and a lot of new info about Leh affair leaked. The first point is that IAF is still discussing Gripen participation. The RFI and RFP established that all tests must be conducted with the real bidders. The tests at Leh were conducted with Gripen C/D and Demo and both of them are not representative of NG. The Raven radar still is not completely operational.

According Indian officers, two planes failed: MiG35 and F/A-18E/F. Gripen Demo takes off with the required load (only two tanks, four air-to-air missiles and a cargo of 1900kg bombs). Typhoon and Rafale takes off with full cargo but EADS bidder failed at some attack missions

He is true in that even the Gripen Demo is not the final NG, structurally speaking. The latest Flightglobal article (very well written) gave some details on this aspect, stating that the wing surface area will be increased on the NG, as well as some more modifications to the wing-fuselage where the landing gear now transfers loads to the wing and fuselage, in the NG it will only transfer loads to the wings.

But he is also wrong about the 1900 kg of bombs. The Gripen D and the Gripen Demo both only were said to have operated with the IRIS-T and drop tanks, which is what the Tejas did at Leh as well.

BTW, over the weekend I got to witness a C-17, Super Hornet and Viper demo (both clean). This is the second time I’m seeing them in action and again, the SHornet’s high alpha passes and controllability at extremely low speeds was the hallmark, whereas the Viper was all about extremely fast low passes, followed by very quick climb right into the vertical and plenty of very high, almost 9g- turns and only one short high alpha low speed pass. Clearly exhibited their strong points. Both were very noisy, very imposing, especially the Viper. Made it quite clear that at least kinematically speaking, the F-16 Block 60 will be a very strong contender.

When seen from up close the size difference is quite apparent..The Shornet being much larger and imposing than the F-16 (saw 3, one in Aggressor camo), which is surprisingly small for such a mythic fighter. And one more thing- the Super Hornet twin seater actually looks very good from up close, something that fails to come through in pictures. Excellent build quality on both, and the SHornet is sturdy as a truck with the landing gear really looking very beefy and strong as compared to the F-16 and F-15 nearby with their spindly girly leg like landing gear. There is even a slip-preventive rough textured pad on the LERX right next to the cockpit for the pilot to stand on. I fully expected a “NO STEP” sign there, but then realized that for the second pilot, after the ladder, he’ll need to walk on that LERX to be able to get inside the cockpit.

And Indranil (if you’re reading this) I saw the channel leading from under the wing to over the wing which you said was for the high alpha rudder controllability.

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 20 Jul 2010 05:17

BTW, over the weekend I got to witness a C-17, Super Hornet and Viper demo (both clean). This is the second time I’m seeing them in action and again, the SHornet’s high alpha passes and controllability at extremely low speeds was the hallmark

Was Super Hornet's high alpha manouveres better than Rambha? Just Curious...................

As per Mig-35, well one reason we opted for an MMRCA Race was actually to diversify our defence assets and to build strong partnerships with countries other than Russia, and get access to the latest tech! So, IMHO, MiG-35 would be an also ran by most counts.............

rajeshks · Post by **rajeshks** » 20 Jul 2010 10:41

ManuJ wrote: The only way out then, to make both IAF happy and for GoI to fulfill its aim of leveraging this deal for geopolitical advantages, is to escalate the total price of this deal to close to $18-20 billion. That would get IAF the number of airframes it wants, and would allow GoI complete freedom to choose the deal that is most geo-politically advantageous.

Will the Indian govt. be willing to spend that much on this deal? We should ask that if it didn't intend to, then why include the two-engined planes in the fray in the first place? GoI must have been looking ahead and asking itself - can we afford this deal considering that the time-frame is 2014-2020, with 8% average minimum GDP growth? The answer it came up with must have been a Yes.

The only other explanation is that GoI always intended for a single-engined fighter to win the deal, but took the others along for a ride. Just doesn't make sense, and the manufacturers spending hundreds of millions on trials are not exactly fools. They must have received an assurance that their products would be considered if they pass technical trials.

>> is to escalate the total price of this deal to close to $18-20 billion.
An increase of 8-10 billion $s. Its easy to say.. Do you know how much it comes in terms of Indian rupees? 35,000 crore to 50,000 crore.. Now do you know what was the estimate when AB Vajpayee announced the golden quadrilateral project? it was around 25,000 crores. Do you know the impact of golden quadrilateral project in the infrastructure scene of India? Do you know the number of jobs it created in urban & rural India?

Now the question is, if we spend additional 50,000 crore rupees just to satisfy some other country what benefit does it give to India? Few additional squadrons of planes sitting in the hanger and flies < 100 hours a year for next 30-40 years is not going to change the face of India. For numbers we have LCA coming.

Indian defense procurement philosophy is based on Threats & Capabilities. Its not about fanciness or the number of such toys we have. So if the ACM is confident of the handling the current threats with the capabilities he has now and the future threats with the capabilities he is going to have, why should GoI spend a huge amount of money just to satisfy bina kaam people like us?

About evaluating the planes, what is wrong in utilizing an opportunity to know about the latest technologies available in the market. Single or double engine, AESA or PESA everything is fine for evaluation. If it fits our pocket we will buy it, otherwise we dont. Thats known to all companies that came to show their fancy stuffs to us.

About Geo politics and UN Security Council seat etc etc.. I dont think UN & UN SC is going to have the same credibility in the future. Iran, NK, Libiya, Pakistan.. all these silly countries are examples of uselessness of UN. UN is fast losing its power so investing too much in a UN SC seat may not bring major advantages for us. With changes in power equations, international politics is also going to change automatically. This is just my humble opinion and everyone else is free to differ.

I am sure when MMS and AKA sit together to decide the winner of MRCA contest they are going to consider all these questions.

>> ManuJ, not to offend you in anyway.. My comments are only to raise some points and not to offend.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 20 Jul 2010 11:27

X-post

India shops for combat aircraft at Farnborough

Indian defence authorities, led by Minister of State for Defence M.M. Pallam Raju, are looking to see the international response to some of the latest multi-role combat aircraft on display at the Farnborough Air Show here which are being evaluated by India for upgrading its air force.
Pallam Raju is leading the Indian delegation, which includes Defence Production Secretary Raj Kumar Singh and the chief of the Southern Air Command, Air Marshal S. Mukerji.

Actual or close versions of four of the six latest combat aircraft that have completed trials in India and in the country of manufacture are on display at the air show. They are the naval version of the JAS 39 Gripen NG/IN of SAAB, the Swedish aerospace company; the Eurofighter Typhoon made by a European consortium; the F/A-18IN Super Hornet of Boeing and the F-16IN Super Viper of American giant Lockheed Martin.

Of the four fighter jets on display at the air show, the Gripen IN, a version of the Gripen NG (Next Generation), has increased fuel capacity, higher payload, increased combat range and endurance and super-cruise capability. SAAB International has proposed to India the transfer of technology if Gripen wins the MRCA and make India “an independent manufacturer” of its own fighter jets.

Boeing’s offer is the Super Hornet variant named F/A-18IN. It will include Raytheon’s Apg-79 AESA radar which sharply increases the pilot’s “situational awareness”. In August 2008, Boeing submitted an industrial participation proposal to India describing partnerships with companies in India.

The Eurofighter Typhoon is a twin-engine canard-delta wing – the wing platform designed as a triangle – multi-role aircraft designed and built by a consortium of three companies: Alena Aeronautica of Italy, BAE Systems of Britain and European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS), formed after the merger of three aeronautics corporations of France, Germany and Spain.

The F-16IN Super Viper, a variant of the F-16 Fighting Falcon, is a multi-role jet fighter developed by Lockheed Martin. It is a dogfighter with numerous innovations including a frameless bubble canopy for better visibility, a side-mounted control stick to ease control while under high gravitational forces, and a reclined seat to reduce the effect of g-forces on the pilot. Its manufacturer has described the Indian variant as “the most advanced and capable F-16 ever”.

nits · Post by **nits** » 20 Jul 2010 14:13

Eurofighter gets good vibes on MMRCA - Everyone makes there own judgment

nits · Post by **nits** » 20 Jul 2010 14:16

And with above reply i complete my Training and become BRFite from a Trainee...

took just 4 years to complete this training but still much more to learn and gain on this forum...

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Jul 2010 14:52

Rajesh has a very valid point about costs,which I've constantly been reminding members because of the vast masses of poor in the country especially in rural and tribal areas,who require a better lifestyle and preservation of their way of life.The latest Frontline has the rape of India's forests to the mining lobby as main feature.Pl.read it,it is a must.The pics themselves are shocking.The greatest looting of the country in its entire "civilised" history is taking place due to illegal mining,all across the country at the behest and pressure of corporate and capitalist greed.
We are NOT a rich country despite our so-called development and growth,where vast millions in some regions are even worse off than in sub-Saharan Africa according to some reports.This inequality breeds desperation and the willingness to join extremist outfits like the Naxals,endangering the country from within.If you add this "internal security" bill to the annual budget,one can see just how much the absence of taking care of this sector of the population has a negative cascading effect upon the nation's health.

The MMRCA contest therefore must focus upon core requirements which are fundamentally increasing the inventory whch has fallen dangerously low,with affordable multi-role aircraft that can remain in service for at least two decades.The future stealth advantage is being taken care of by the 5th-gen fighter which is already flying and within 5-6 years time should also be entering into IAF service.The LCA programme is where we can toy to an extent with foreign tech in developing our own fighter.We cannot afford gold-plated aircraft that cost the earth for the illusionary sake of acquiring "superior tech",or pleasing some nations to recommend us for a UNSC seat-which in any case is going to be very devalued in the future with many new incumbents and the poss. that we will not have a veto as right.

The manner in which the Hawk AJT local production has taken place is a stark reminder that even western OEM suppliers "welsh" on the deal (unacceptable quailty of components supplied),drastically afffecting local production,only 12 built in two years.In spending $10billion+ on such a deal,we must take the maximum care to see that our money is well spent and that the risk element is reduced to the minimum,when it comes to possible sanctions,ease of induction of aircraft,weaponry and technology into service and the logistic and after-sales support.From my observations thus far,three fit the bill better.However,from current tends,there appears to be a momentum to take a decision before the "Messiah" arrives in town!

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 20 Jul 2010 15:15

Juro Phiter ij making a AESA based on Captor

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Jul 2010 15:21

Oh well when the Messiah Obama is in town in November and meets the man the whole world listens to when he talks , this is a good chance that he may just twist the mans arm to sign on the dotted line for MMRCA , that would end most of Jingos dream for Eurofighter and Rafale

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 20 Jul 2010 16:04

The release further said

Euroradar has delivered over 250 Captor mechanically scanned radars into the Typhoon programme to date and this experience will ensure a timely and smooth transition to AESA

.

So its captor.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 20 Jul 2010 23:06

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... -figh.html

FARN10: Boeing does strike fighters

There's a slide for 'Super Hornet International Road Map'
- Conformal Fuel Tanks
- Enhanced Performance Engines
- Spherical Missile/Laser Warning
- Enclosed Weapons Pod
- Next Generation Cockpit
- Internal IRST (So not the IRST/fuel tank combo?)

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 20 Jul 2010 23:16

And Italy is announcing that for financial reasons, they will be cutting their final Eurofighter order by 25 units..that is what happens when the unit price is so high, despite the huge numbers of Eurofighters being produced for the customer nations. The same happened to the RAF, where they had to cut Tranche 3 orders to make sure that the Tranche 1 and 2 jets can be upgraded to make their truly multi-role. Luftwaffe too is using its Typhoons for only air policing type duties. For all the noise and marketing gimmicks, the Typhoon is still not fully ready or multi-role and developing it to the full extent is a very costly affair.

By Agence France-Presse, Updated: 7/20/2010
Italy cuts Eurofighter order by 25 units, citing finances
Italy will slash an order for Eurofighter warplanes by 25 from a planned 121 for savings of about two billion euros (2.6 billion dollars), the defence ministry said on Tuesday.

The reduced order is part of "savings that the ministry must make under the austerity plan" adopted by the centre-right government in May, a press officer told AFP, confirming remarks by Defence Minister Ignazio La Russa at the Farnborough Airshow in Britain.

The two-year austerity package totalling 24.9 billion euros is aimed at cleaning up Italy's finances and reassuring financial markets.

The Eurofighter, a multi-purpose twin-engine fighter jet introduced in 2003, is built by a consortium made up of the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS), Britain's BAE Systems and Alenia/Finmeccanica of Italy.

EADS' share is 46 percent, followed by BAE's 33 percent and Alenia/Finmeccanica's 21 percent.

The Eurofighter programme has been dogged by criticism over costs, notably from Italy and Britain.

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