MRCA News and Discussion

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paramyog
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby paramyog » 07 Aug 2010 16:13

If you asked me personally, we are yet to operate a US designed aircraft.

But given a choice, knowing that F-22 Raptor is still inaccessible, there is hope in F-35.

We need to understand that India faces CLEAR & PRESENT DANGER on both the EASTERN and WESTERN Frontiers.

An Aircraft which is less than Gen 4.5 is simply not viable.

Its not merely the PAK-AF or the PLA-AF that we'll encounter but their massive missile arsenal that target New Delhi, Kolkata, Mumbai and alike. Engaging multiple targets in A2A & A2G combat to achieve air superiority can be decisive in a counter attack situation.

F-35 has already been selected by various countries, 10 is the current count. Adding India can make the program accelerate and production becoming more cost-effective. Not even the US Congress would refuse that deal.
An F-35 lightning II program is nearing completion and by the time the first few are delivered in Fly away condition, India will be ready to induct them into both the Air as well as Naval Inventory.

If the US Govt. is intelligent enough and Indians are wise enough, this is an out of the box thought which can lead to a win-win situation for both the nations. It will send a resonating message to both China and Pak, who are desperate for a war sitting on our doorsteps.

Must check this out.
http://www.jsf.mil/

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Guddu » 07 Aug 2010 16:49

I suspect that we will not buy F-18, and the contract will go for the tiffy/gripen. The USA will be rewarded instead with the F-35 contract. This will prove to everyone, how India is no pushover :mrgreen: . Just makes little sense to buy F-18 with mature technology, inspite of the ground breaking radar. If the expected life is 40 years....it has to be a new plane. The F-35 will also keep the pakis H&D in check wrt block 52 bragging rights.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby jamwal » 07 Aug 2010 17:36

What about the issues with FCS of Gripen ? Two Gripen planes crashed (one during a test flight and another during an aero-show) due to glitches in software. Incidentally same pilot was involved in both crashes.


Christopher Sidor

Same size is no criteria for any commonality with Tejas and resulting ease of maintenance.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby AdityaM » 07 Aug 2010 17:57

As per TimesNow report, Eurofighter and Rafale are the front runners

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby paramyog » 07 Aug 2010 18:19

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-8995.html

My bet is still F-35. Funding from India can accelerate the production and subsequent delivery.

By the time PAK-FGFA is ready, we'll already have some muscle in air. Come to think of it, UK contributed only $ 2 billion. India can afford much more than that. Besides, 50% of it can be manufactured in India thus lowering the overall cost for each unit not just for India but even for the other partner countries.

I wonder if the Yanks are looking at that option.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 07 Aug 2010 19:34

Paramyog ... you are not making sense.

When will we start getting the F-35s? How do you see them fulfilling the MMRCA role?

DO you have any idea of the program cost of the F-35s? you think 10 billion will get a 50% production in India!!!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nishu » 07 Aug 2010 19:47

GUYS I DONT KNOW IF THIS TRUE BUT IF IT IS EUROFIGHTER HAS WON

http://www.timesnow.tv/New-fighters-for ... 351234.cms
Last edited by nishu on 07 Aug 2010 19:49, edited 2 times in total.

Kronop
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kronop » 07 Aug 2010 19:48

jamwal wrote:What about the issues with FCS of Gripen ? Two Gripen planes crashed (one during a test flight and another during an aero-show) due to glitches in software. Incidentally same pilot was involved in both crashes.


True, sort of...

These crashes involved very early releases of the FCS (in pre production test aircrafts), the main contributor was the human factor in combinatuion with FCS sensitivity resulting in PIO. However Saab took this lesson and evolved the FCS into what is now something completely diffrent than at the time of the crashes.

In reality Gripen in service accident statistics is on par with the best and when it comes to test aircraft statistics I would vager that they have the lowest accident rate of any fighter manufacturer.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Carl_T » 07 Aug 2010 19:48

When is judgement day?

paramyog
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby paramyog » 07 Aug 2010 19:50

ITs Rafael n the Eurofighter it this report is to be believed.

http://www.timesnow.tv/New-fighters-for ... 351233.cms

Producing components in India can vastly reduce costs, as with Boeing and dassault systems, who outsource much from India.
F-35 consortium can benefit as well.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nishu » 07 Aug 2010 19:52

YA but my favorite is euro fighter

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 07 Aug 2010 19:55

hopefully germany and italy will have the need for developing full a2g of typhoon. germany isnt going the jsf route and italy I think will take jsf only for its carrier(s). both operate tornado a2g model which will be retired at some point.

for the kind of wars the EU partners in NATO will get involved in , a2g has far more relevance than knocking off some decrepit mig21FL and JF17s parked on the tarmac in the H-Hour+0.30 which again is a2g :wink:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nishu » 07 Aug 2010 19:56

so can we say now europe is in our basket now

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 07 Aug 2010 19:59

if the report is true, its upto EADS to seal the deal with various carrots and inputs like help on Kaveri, Tejas mk2 EJ210 engine, AMCA, airbus 330 refueler, A330 JSTARS-I , GMTI radar , U-boat techs for P75I ...... it needs to be signed at highest level between lets say german chanceller and PM to signify the seriousness - when its signed.

Ombaba can take a tour of the Taj and go home. :roll:

there's a s***load of money the EU can make off Indian growth in the next few decades spanning all sectors like machine tools, construction, design,
energy sector, telecom, financial services :oops: , automobile industry, ship building, defence, luxury goods and so on.

its their deal to lose. unlike yamrika they dont have luxury of a single and cohesive domestic economy and fiat currency.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 07 Aug 2010 20:05

I would hesitate before launching into festivities based on one report. Also, we're buying fighters, not Europe. If the Eurofighter is selected, I would be proclaiming that the success of the LCA is brighter - thanks to engine commonality.

Added later: Not directed at you, Singha

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 07 Aug 2010 20:41

sure,,,but since MRCA is the thread to write 20 post sequences based on green-flag-on-lal-quilla type feelings, I put my word in beforehand.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 07 Aug 2010 21:12

paramyog wrote:http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-8995.html

My bet is still F-35. Funding from India can accelerate the production and subsequent delivery.

By the time PAK-FGFA is ready, we'll already have some muscle in air. Come to think of it, UK contributed only $ 2 billion. India can afford much more than that. Besides, 50% of it can be manufactured in India thus lowering the overall cost for each unit not just for India but even for the other partner countries.

I wonder if the Yanks are looking at that option.



The most amazing thing about the F 35 is the two bombs it carries. Two whole bombs. Go in supremely stealthily 1500 km into China, drop 2 bombs in the mountains and get back stealthily.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Carl_T » 07 Aug 2010 21:17

Wasn't the idea behind the F-35 that it would be stealthy, heavily armed and cheap? But it doesnt carry as much internally as the F-22 making it neither that stealthy nor very heavily armed, and still costs about 150M USD, so not cheap either. I don't get it.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 07 Aug 2010 21:26

Carl_T wrote: I don't get it.



You are not meant to get it.

The F 35 is a way of recouping the costs to America of developing the sort of tech that it uses. The US will "get it" once large numbers are sold. I pains me and makes me laugh simultaneously to see Indians slobbering after the F-35. The F 22 is much better. If I sound as though I am against the F 22 its not sour grapes, but a deep worry that its tech will be thrown against India at some future date - not necessarily by the US. I am a bigger F 35 critic than an F 22 critic.

Sorry to off topic

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Brando » 07 Aug 2010 22:11

Another consideration about India getting the F35 would be how the Pakis would react. They would immediately ask the Americans to sell them a few F35s also and the Americans most likely would donate a few to them as well- just to keep the "balance" or so they will claim. This is one reason New Delhi would never ask the Americans to sell them the F35 because it will give the Pakis an excuse to demand the planes from America also. Instead PAK-FA which is cheaper and more capable would be an India only deal if we were to buy them from Russia. Also, with the CISMOA being a big problem right now, I don't see how any American aircraft would stand a chance, if they are going to come an avionics lite package.

The idea of Pakistan having a stealth aircraft like the F35 is something that India has to consider going forward. At the very least the Chinese will be coming out with a Fifth generation knockoff and the Pakis may very well get that. Either way, FGFA is the only way for India to go, apart from the AMCA.

The MMRCA should be ideally suited to complement our future Fifth generation air fleet in some capacity keeping in mind how things are evolving technologically in the world.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby koti » 07 Aug 2010 22:26

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/08/blog-post.html
Good to hear that.
And finally it seems there is some genuineness in the decision as the mighty Russian and US lobbies had been sidelined. :-o

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kanson » 07 Aug 2010 22:33

Hey! my favourite Rafale made it in the list. :P

No one comparing the Rafale IR signature to that of Eurofighter and F-22. :cry: One must see to believe that.

So it is going to be a competition btw Kaveri-Snecma and Eurojet for the Mk2-Tejas. Of course GE-414 will have its own pull.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 07 Aug 2010 22:42

One more MMRCA speculation this time from TimesNow never mind ;)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby yantra » 07 Aug 2010 22:56

if indeed this report is true, it will give tremendous flexibility and scalability to the Indian defense Industry. The GoI indeed would have shown some spine in towing an independent line in the true long-term interest of the country.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Luxtor » 07 Aug 2010 22:57

^^^

Yes, I agree this is just a speculation. In the TimeNow report there was no mention of where they came by this information; in another words: No References. So this can be tossed into the speculation files.

... But on the other hand if the report is true then I hope to Eurofighter Consortium works extra hard to get the A2G, AESA radar and other sensors fully developed in time for the MMRCA delivery schedule; otherwise, the Rafale will fly away with the contract since they have a very capable aircraft with fully developed systems. Beside, I just like the way the Rafale looks. :D

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby parshuram » 07 Aug 2010 23:03

Or probably IAF indeed has given it's heart out that this what they want and this is what they fear that political dirty linens may wash off there wishes ..... American lobby is too difficult for MMS to wack off
Last edited by parshuram on 07 Aug 2010 23:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby yantra » 07 Aug 2010 23:05

if you notice that the NLCA consulting contract, Snecma-Kaveri, Tejas Mk2 compatibility with EJ 210, etc, the tilt is certainly in favor of EADS

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Luxtor » 07 Aug 2010 23:17

^^^
Don't you think that Sonia being an Italian-Indian would push MMS to get the Typhoon since Italy is a partner in the Eurofighter consortium? :D

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby tejas » 07 Aug 2010 23:23

Tough to choose between the Typhoon and the Rafale. The Rafale is likely a better A2G weapon and at least equal to the Eurofighter in A2A combat. It is cheaper though both cost an arm and a leg. If either choice comes with sweeteners that gives India fighter engine independence-- a big if-- then the deal will be worth every penny.

One last thought, although looks shouldn't count, the Rafale has to be one of the most exquisite looking fighters ever built. It has always been my favorite horse in this race with the Eurofighter second. I will be happy with either choice.
Last edited by tejas on 07 Aug 2010 23:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Willy » 07 Aug 2010 23:33

They have left a backdoor for the F-18 havent they? Let's see if the Indian govt can resist US pressure. My personal opinion is that the F-18 would be a big mistake. Anyway why go for a dated design when you have two modern designs to choose from.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby KrishG » 07 Aug 2010 23:37

EADS has a very strong marketing strategy, something lacking in the French effort.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Willy » 07 Aug 2010 23:40

Well if just the Eurofighter and Rafale are going to be considered and if its going to be a political decision the Eurofighter will win hands down as they have a larger number of countries backing it.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Asit P » 08 Aug 2010 00:13

Talking exclusively in terms of capabilities and future growth potential, Rafale and Eurofighter are indeed the best birds in the MRCA competition. So if this report is true, then it will be fun to see one of them in the IAF colour, doing a Tango in the sky along with SU 30 MKI :wink: .
Last edited by Asit P on 08 Aug 2010 00:15, edited 1 time in total.

Carl_T
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Carl_T » 08 Aug 2010 00:14

Go for the Rafale, the EF looks ugly in two seater configuration. Granted neither of them are as beautiful as the JF-17.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby saurav.jha » 08 Aug 2010 00:20

again a classic example of yellow journalism from the very same people who had announced about RAFALE getting kicked out of the race...TNN is one of the most unreliable news network in india...Plus they are quoting some insider from EADS..

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby MarcH » 08 Aug 2010 02:12

Even if this report is true, it doesn't mean jack. Remember the A-330 tanker deal ?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 08 Aug 2010 02:21

The flowing article has a detailed writeup about the Typhoon; Thought it might be an interesting read for people who have not read this information before.

Eurofighter Typhoon - Demon or Lemon?


Conclusion
What conclusions can we draw about the Typhoon? The notion that the aircraft is “almost as good as an F-22” is not supportable, indeed upgrading the F-15 with engines and a radar/IRS&T/AAM package of the same generation as that of the Typhoon would equalise almost all advantages held by the Typhoon over older F-15C/E variants. By the same token, no upgrades performed on the F/A-18A/C would equalise the performance advantages of the Typhoon over these aircraft.

The strength of the Typhoon is its very modern and comprehensive avionic package, especially that in the RAF variant, and its excellent agility when operated around its optimum combat radius of about 300 NMI (a figure to be found in older Eurofighter literature, which has since disappeared with the export drive to compete against the bigger F-15 and F-22).

The Typhoon's weaknesses are its F/A-18C class weight and thrust and the implications of this in combat at extended operational radii, and the longer term sensitivity of its BVR weapons advantage to equivalent technological developments in opposing fighters.

In terms of where to position the Typhoon in the current menagerie of fighter aircraft, it can be best described as an F/A-18C sized fighter with BVR systems and agility performance better than older F-15 models, similar to growth F-15 models with same generation systems and engines, but inferior to the F-15 in useful operating radius. The Typhoon is not a stealth aircraft, despite various assertions to this effect, nor is it a genuine supercruiser like the F-22. Its design incorporates none of the features seen in very low observable types, nor does the EJ200 incorporate the unique design features of the F119 and F120 powerplants.

The Typhoon is certainly not a lemon, although the wisdom of mass producing a high performance conventional fighter of its ilk in a period where stealth is about to hit mass production in the F-22 and JSF programs could be seriously questioned. It represents what is likely to be the last major evolutionary step in the teen series design philosophy.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Arya Sumantra » 08 Aug 2010 04:29

VinodTK wrote: From the article:
although the wisdom of mass producing a high performance conventional fighter of its ilk in a period where stealth is about to hit mass production in the F-22 and JSF programs could be seriously questioned. It represents what is likely to be the last major evolutionary step in the teen series design philosophy.
[/quote]

No one other than Unkil will be sporting an all 5th gen fighter force. For other nations, anyways the rest of non-5th gen inventory is going to be mass-produced conventional fighters only. And doesn't he know that F22 mass production stopped long time ago? By the time all 5th gen issues get ironed out and its present high maintenance costs and LRIP prices decrease to the level of a workhorse fighter it should take 10 years. Who will wait till then? So it is the author whose wisdom that needs to be questioned.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 08 Aug 2010 04:39

^^ You guys are jumping the GUN HERE!!! Don't forget Baba O Bummer is heading to Hindustan, and according to the video from Times Now it is stated that the IAF is UNDECIDED of F/A 18 E/F unless it were offered EPE Engines (which might be on the cards) barring the CISMOA and LSA agreements!!! But nonetheless, hopefully better sense prevails and IAF goes for an aircraft that will let it gain much technology for LCA!!!!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby prastor » 08 Aug 2010 06:11

Craig Alpert wrote:^^ You guys are jumping the GUN HERE!!! Don't forget Baba O Bummer is heading to Hindustan, and according to the video from Times Now it is stated that the IAF is UNDECIDED of F/A 18 E/F unless it were offered EPE Engines (which might be on the cards) barring the CISMOA and LSA agreements!!! But nonetheless, hopefully better sense prevails and IAF goes for an aircraft that will let it gain much technology for LCA!!!!


Unkil will never compromise the end user monitoring agreements for any fighter model he exports. So, forget it. Our govt is going to have some very serious political backlash if any such agreements are signed for such a huge defense deal.

My bet has always been on the Eurofighter Typhoon. It will make it.

By the way, Cameroon took a big political and diplomatic risk coming out against Pakistan the way he did recently in India. I am sure that earned him some brownie points too.


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