MRCA News and Discussion

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 08 Aug 2010 12:04

No wonder chuk humor wants 200% increase in Visa fee, he is Hillary chamcha.

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 08 Aug 2010 12:07

Singha wrote:sometimes if you want a girl to accept your proposal, you ignore her and make out with another equally pretty girl for a while to keep the first girl on a hook and eventually relent and come chasing after you with better 'benefits' and reduced ego....

tsk tsk what happened to Guruji's eloquence!!!

The post could be eloquent if only he quoted this'

"If you want win the daughter begin with the mother"

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Aug 2010 12:09

nachiket wrote:Can't believe all this hoo haa over a Times Now report. BRFites should be more discerning.

I do agree but discernment also leads one to a conclusion that the report may become a reality. What do you think is the reason for arming 'Pakistan'? for starters

And in the unlikely event that the news is true, we should keep in mind that regardless of the IAF's recommendation, no Indian government is going to buy an aircraft that costs close to $100 million a pop. Like someone said above, remember the A330 deal (or rather what became of it).

Cost is no consideration keeping in mind that we have a China(with an on and off G-2 and rent boy pukes policy) breathing down our neck(in all respects) and if we want to ally ourselves with the Europeans. Anyway the world has moved on since the A330 saga.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 08 Aug 2010 12:22

Guess all those rumours of 4 fighters failing to clear the Leh trials weren't all that wrong and now we know which ones

(Of course, heavily relying on the Times Now report)

Added later: link

Mihir.D · Post by **Mihir.D** » 08 Aug 2010 12:24

nachiket wrote:, no Indian government is going to buy an aircraft that costs close to $100 million a pop. Like someone said above, remember the A330 deal (or rather what became of it).

100 million a pop depends on what India is getting in return.
It would be better to analyze what DRDO projects are in the pipeline and what EADS and DASS can help with and to what extent.
Probably the 2 short listed candidates where leaked out just to ensure that the gorilla doesn't come stomping.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 08 Aug 2010 12:26

Manishw wrote:Chacko ji Pls correct me if I am wrong the bird also told me this is the deal on everybody's radar but we get our work done by flying under the radar.

Every day there is a flip flop. This is the first time guys are in china shop (like bull in the china shop). They are actually crunching numbers, tabulating specs, thinking geo political etc. Then there is push and pull at all levels. We got to cross fingers and wait.

Can't believe all this hoo haa over a Times Now report. BRFites should be more discerning.

Lets wait for the big denial to come through.

paramyog · Post by **paramyog** » 08 Aug 2010 12:29

By the way. the Eurofighter and the Rafael, both carry the same ACX DNA. Except that size and cost being on the higher side when it comes to EF, Rafael is a ligher and much more agile/maneuverable machine due to its proven Air Carrier Landing capability.

However, EF has room to add more. It depends eventually what India brings on the table. If only India could ask EADS to do something that make EF, F22/F-35 की टक्कर का हवाबाज़... we have filled the gap.

In their present versions, EF & Rafael are low on stealth capability. This is something which may be worrying if, as mentioned previously, India were to engage in war on two fronts. AESA is also a matter of concern for EFs. India needs to pump in its finances and brains to customise EF into a deadly flying beast that can send tremors even to the F-35s Aces at Nellis Air Base..!!

We need to beef up this monster like a flying पिशाच or a प्रेत to suit our immense security situation which neither the EU nor the US face, which is having SUPER HOSTILE neighbours like PRC & PAK.

Anything short of such a powerful weapon isnt worth the money.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 08 Aug 2010 12:35

Times now are known for their over-zealous reporting- they were screaming all over the place about Chinese forces firing at 2 ITBP guards but that was completly false, then there was their 26/11 coverage and the less said about it the better.

I would certainly even attach even an iota of credibility to their report.

NDTV, Headlines Today and CNN IBN are much better in defence reporting.

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 08 Aug 2010 12:57

Well this has been leaked before uncle comes stomping... by leaking in advance puts India in a better position to resist pressure. But what is worrying is leaving the door open for the superhornet to still come in.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Aug 2010 13:07

If the Superbug does come in we can kiss goodbye to all our ambitions and look forward to our future as Pakistan-2.Not gonna happen says my 2 cents.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Aug 2010 13:28

Nihat wrote:Times now are known for their over-zealous reporting- they were screaming all over the place about Chinese forces firing at 2 ITBP guards but that was completly false, then there was their 26/11 coverage and the less said about it the better.

I would certainly even attach even an iota of credibility to their report.

NDTV, Headlines Today and CNN IBN are much better in defence reporting.

All three channels are no doubt more credible in their reporting but do you think they are going to report on an anti-unkil issue.If you do so kindly ignore this post.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 08 Aug 2010 14:40

Lets wait for a while, let others confirm it. Times group is known for its horrible defense commentary and reporting. I am asking a few guys of my own, will put it on my blog.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Aug 2010 14:58

smpratik wrote:Lets wait for a while, let others confirm it. Times group is known for its horrible defense commentary and reporting. I am asking a few guys of my own, will put it on my blog.

Please read the report in Times now along with article on rediff posted a page back on this very thread.Connect some dots and ask whether this is officially sanctioned leak or shoddy reporting and after doing so please consider that should 'Aam Aadmi' like me should wait for you to post on your blog so that I can comment on Bharat-rakshak.

Danell · Post by **Danell** » 08 Aug 2010 15:33

Tanveer wrote:The term GEO-POLITICAL needs to be explained here.
What GEO-POLITICAL benefit one is expecting if typhoon wins?
And what happens if Rafale wins?
I am not a fan of Rafale. It is underpowered and Dassault is smaller than EADS......

'm confused!!

The Rafale has a very good T/W ratio and is powered by one of the the most compact and fuel efficient engine.
Rafale = Rafale International = Dassault+Thales+Safran= 30 Billions euros turnover

btw from a strategical/political point of view, it's useless to oppose the Rafale to the Typhoon, Rafale International to EADS/BAE , France to Europe.
Everything is linked in the European aerospace industry: EADS owns 49% of Dassault , EADS is controlled by German and French shareholders (the french state).
So , for example, don't expect anything coming from EADS (to help Eurofighter Gmbh) which could hurt French interests ...

Singha wrote:france has been kept well fed with huge airbus orders, potential A330 deal, scorpene deal, potential NH90 deal, turbomeca engines for Dhruv, M2k upgrade, milan missiles, thales sonars, ATR-72 orders and thermal imagers.....one can always argue for that last round of rice and payasam at the table, discounting the 10 courses that preceded it ofcourse.

It makes no sense:
Airbus , A330 , NH 90, Milan, ATR (50%) -> EADS firms
Turbomeca, Thales Sonars,M2K upgrade -> Rafale International firms

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Aug 2010 15:44

Very well put danell ji, the point is- is India going to align itself with Europe? This is a huge geopolitical shift taking place if it were to be so.
Just for the records I don't see a big difference in the two European birds as regards capability.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Aug 2010 16:14

Ajatshatru wrote:A $12 billion dollar question is whether French can give a written guarantee to India that if Rafale is chosen (126 + 74 more as, perhaps, a follow up order later), they would not sell the plane to China or Pakistan in the future.... Considering the sheer size of the order, shouldn't the French at least give such a guarantee?

If an alignment is taking place no guarantees will be required and my two cents says it wont be the Rafale since the Frenchies are not bigtime into H & D and are more interested in the moolah.In any case it is not a 12 billion dollar deal but giving some country a elephant size foot print into the lucrative Indian arms(and other) bazaar.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Aug 2010 16:47

^^^ Please refer to the 'If' in italics.Does it seem naive?

As regards moolah again If they get what they want in India why spoil a good thing by aligning with Pakistan and china.In any case written or not , these guarantees always work on different factors.

You are correct.My mistake for not adding 'just'.

Danell · Post by **Danell** » 08 Aug 2010 16:54

Manishw wrote:Very well put danell ji, the point is- is India going to align itself with Europe? This is a huge geopolitical shift taking place if it were to be so.
Just for the records I don't see a big difference in the two European birds as regards capability.

There are differences between the 2 aircrafts:

Typhoon:
- More powerful engines
- Better radar range (if non Aesa)
- AIM-120 AMRAAM range
- More customers.
- Agressive marketing

RaFale :
-AESA radar available (planned 2015 for the Typhoon)
-Better sensor fusion (according to the french pilots)
-Better RCS
-FSO allowing long range identification and passive targeting
-Really onmirole, A2A+A2G
-More agile, superior FBW
-Mica versatility
-Less expensive
-Discret marketing

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Aug 2010 16:58

Makes me wonder what should we pay more then $100 million for Euro Rafale or Typhoon when MKI offers the same capability with substantial range then these on internal fuel and cost not more then $60 million will all bells and whistles

Ofcourse there is the all new Su-35 which has capability improvement over MKI and probably half gen ahead with claims of supercruise capability.

Why buy an aircraft that over laps MKI capability and costs substantial more ?

I think any aircraft that we buy for MMRCA , MKI should be the benchmark ( minus the range ) if these aircraft offers substantial more capability that justifies substantial more money per aircraft ( > $100 million ) then its worth every penny , else a 10 % improvement over 50 % more cost is really not worth

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Aug 2010 17:01

@ Danell Ji I really don't want to get into the nitty-gritties of the two aircraft and argue like fan-boys.From my p.o.v both do a good job. Please Ignore my statement if You don't agree.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Aug 2010 17:06

Austin wrote:Makes me wonder what should we pay more then $100 million for Euro Rafale or Typhoon when MKI offers the same capability with substantial range then these on internal fuel and cost not more then $60 million will all bells and whistles

Ofcourse there is the all new Su-35 which has capability improvement over MKI and probably half gen ahead with claims of supercruise capability.

Why buy an aircraft that over laps MKI capability and costs substantial more ?

I think any aircraft that we buy for MMRCA , MKI should be the benchmark ( minus the range ) if these aircraft offers substantial more capability that justifies substantial more money per aircraft ( > $100 million ) then its worth every penny , else a 10 % improvement over 50 % more cost is really not worth

Yes the European birds have to match the Mig-35 in some way or another(ie costs, armaments, ToT etc.)

Danell · Post by **Danell** » 08 Aug 2010 17:15

Manishw wrote:@ Danell Ji I really don't want to get into the nitty-gritties of the two aircraft and argue like fan-boys.From my p.o.v both do a good job. Please Ignore my statement if You don't agree.

As you want , it's your problem ... It is possible to discuss about the aircrafts without acting like fan-boys

ranjithnath · Post by **ranjithnath** » 08 Aug 2010 17:33

if the french -UAE deal to upgrade the rafale with a 90kn engine,RBE2 GaN AESA(already underdevelopment), upgraded SPECTRA etc does goes ahead,will india get the same version??if not in the initial 18, but atleast the ones being manufactured in india???(considering 'IF' rafale is chosen)

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Aug 2010 17:36

Manishw wrote:Yes the European birds have to match the Su35 in some way or another(ie costs, armaments, ToT etc.)

The Su-35 with the bells and whistles that they have adverstised cost $60 million , from what I have read both the Typhoon and Rafale cost atleast above $100 million per aircraft ( correct me if I am wrong )

Can the Typhoon or Rafale carry Brahmos ?

I think to be fair to our Tax payers , if any aircraft cost 50 % more costly over MKI then it should atleast offer 50 % more in capability over MKI.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 08 Aug 2010 17:45

industrial integration with EADS as a full member might be attractive to both sides, for a lot more than just the single deal
not sure dassault can or wants to offer the same level of participation... french guard their crown jewels closely

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 08 Aug 2010 18:08

Manishw wrote:Please read the report in Times now along with article on rediff posted a page back on this very thread.Connect some dots and ask whether this is officially sanctioned leak or shoddy reporting and after doing so please consider that should 'Aam Aadmi' like me should wait for you to post on your blog so that I can comment on Bharat-rakshak.

Well if you love to come to a conclusion using a unconfirmed news than be my guest, no one is stopping you and no one is asking anybody to read my blog. AFA commenting on BR goes, anybody can do that without knowing a any damn thing !! jeez!

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 08 Aug 2010 18:14

Lalmohan wrote:industrial integration with EADS as a full member might be attractive to both sides, for a lot more than just the single deal
not sure dassault can or wants to offer the same level of participation... french guard their crown jewels closely

Exactly, with IAF having a sizable numbers of Tiffy's (200) than it can really bring the program around itself when other participating countries are busy looking at the JSF. This could also mean that HAL's Tejas Mk-2 would probably have Tiffy's stuff in it particularly the engine.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Aug 2010 18:16

smpratik wrote:
Manishw wrote:Please read the report in Times now along with article on rediff posted a page back on this very thread.Connect some dots and ask whether this is officially sanctioned leak or shoddy reporting and after doing so please consider that should 'Aam Aadmi' like me should wait for you to post on your blog so that I can comment on Bharat-rakshak.
Well if you love to come to a conclusion using a unconfirmed news than be my guest, no one is stopping you and no one is asking anybody to read my blog. AFA commenting on BR goes, anybody can do that without knowing a any damn thing !! jeez!

Sir, I would most respectfully and humbly like to bow out of any further debate with a magnificent specimen of 'Mr Know it all'.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 08 Aug 2010 18:31

Manishw wrote:Sir, I would most respectfully and humbly like to bow out of any further debate with a magnificent specimen of 'Mr Know it all'.

Sure ! After this "comment" of your, I have nothing remaining to say.

Seems like I am not a "know all" after all !!

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 08 Aug 2010 22:08

Does China have any aircraft, which are in the same leagues as the Rafael or the Euro-fighter? Will one of the aircraft give air superiority to IAF over PLAF?

Knowing the logistics situation on the Indian side and lack of true artillery to blunt the Chinese army, air domination to blunt the Chinese thrust become imperative.

To stop / hold Chinese army India needs aircraft that are better then the Chinese front-line fighters and needs them in large numbers. To dominate the northern, central and eastern skies India needs at least 15 squadrons (16 per squadron) of the selected aircraft. With a superior aircraft and numbers IAF will be able to withstand and take the fight to China.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 08 Aug 2010 22:12

Imagine the amount of fighter projects under threat.

1) EF
2) Rafale
3) F-35 (sort off)
4) Gripen NG

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 08 Aug 2010 23:06

Since China has Su-30MKK, Su-27 and Su-33 it cannot be directly assumed that Rafale, Eurofighter and Gripen NG will prevail over them. The most potent aircraft currently in the market which can take on su-30mkk and su-33 are f-35 and f-22. F-22 can beat both of these sukhio figthers hands down. Baring the future PAK-FA/FPGA fighter, currently, none of the fighters, su-30, su-33, grippen, eurofighter, rafale, etc have or will have the capability to take on F-22 or F-35 or F-22 and F-35 working in tandem.

Let us assume that there are 18 fighters in a squadron. Given the sanctioned strength of IAF is 39 squadrons, the total number of aircraft available to IAF is 702. Assume that the IAF sanctioned squadron strength goes up to 42-45 then also the strength of IAF is 756-810 respectively. This will include the MRCA fighters. If India has the money and the capability then we need to buy not 125 but atleast 250 fighter aircrafts under MRCA. Better would be to split the MRCA order to two vendors Gripen and Mig-35 equally. This way Mig-35 and LCA can be deployed predominantly against Pakistan, while Gripen/LCA and the entire su-30MKI fleet can focus on Tibet and southern/central China.

prastor · Post by **prastor** » 08 Aug 2010 23:37

Many here have pointed out the Carrier compatibility of the Rafale as an advantage over the Eurofighter Typhoon in this competition. I want to remind them that this deal is strictly for the IAF and does not involve the Navy in any way.

The Navy has their own little competition in the pipeline which already received MoD approval. Here's the link for more details:

http://www.domain-b.com/defence/sea/ind ... craft.html

By the way, the Eurofighter Typhoon has the upper hand right now due to EADS' generous offers.

1. EF consortium is offering India a partnership status in the project if they are selected.
2. The avionics development and manufacturing (along with some other components) for the whole program will be shifted to India.
3. EJ200 is going to be uprated to a "78kN dry thrust and 120kN afterburner" rating and is expected to be installed in the Tranche 3 versions which are probably what India will manufacture.
4. I do not think IAF is desperate to get AESA right away. The aircrafts starts rolling out with the IAF colours only from the end of 2013. So, for the EF, within a year and a half you will have the AESA radars fully inducted and implemented. This is not a huge delay compared to the Rafale's already existing AESA.
5. England and Germany are more desperate for the money than France is right now. What Cameroon said and did in India is a clear indication of that.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 08 Aug 2010 23:41

I am repeating myself here, but I hope whatever machine we decide to go for is turned into an absolute beast post-MKIsation, and that we don't resort to naming it as Suresh or Mahesh but rather on the lines of Bakasur, Tarakasur or Hidimba.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 08 Aug 2010 23:47

Checkout the mohotarma's blog for a new post on MMRCA FWIW

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 08 Aug 2010 23:48

Dmurphy saar, which Motorhamam?

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 08 Aug 2010 23:57

Prasant wrote:Dmurphy saar, which Motorhamam?

There are more than one? Here's one: link

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 09 Aug 2010 00:03

Yes, a couple of bearded ones as well.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 09 Aug 2010 00:39

Another gem from our favorite motorham:

The single-engine F-16IN Super Viper's GE F110-GE-132A engine, produces up to 144 KN thrust and can pull 9 G and -3 vertical G, while engaging in combat manouvers. The aircraft has a thrust to weight ratio of 6.36:1

This is taking Madrassa math to a whole new level.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 09 Aug 2010 00:41

nachiket wrote:Another gem from our favorite motorham:

The aircraft has a thrust to weight ratio of 6.36:1
This is taking Madrassa math to a whole new level.