MRCA News and Discussion

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nachiket » 12 Aug 2010 21:00

Singha wrote:well one thing is sure - F16 and F18 will never be permitted to be used on pakistan. a smackdown on pak using stockpiled parts and weapons would still be possible , but later sanctions will convert $10b worth of inventory and 126 jets into paper tigers and Tejas mk1 engine will also suffer.

if we ever want MRCA to be used on pakistan also , it cannot be a american plane.


Well GD saar, then what about the P-8s and M777s (if we buy them)?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby yantra » 12 Aug 2010 21:11

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ and when you look at that, would you rather go with Unkil, or with Germany, Italy, UK and Spain, with a bit of France on the side? what's going to be better in the long run?

(incidentally, CASA in Spain have become quite competent over the last few decades in case anyone is wondering)


Hmm.. if we go with Unkil, we have to use the crutches provided onlee, even if we can run a marathon on our own.. It will effectively kill our R&D and defense establishments for good. It has a chance to run on its own, if we go with Europeans.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Aug 2010 22:15

$10b will buy us a lot of roads and power plants - things desperately needed by all.

>> Well GD saar, then what about the P-8s and M777s (if we buy them)?
same rule applies but fortunately these are not that crucial vs the paks.

lets face it - there are still overt and covert US sanctions on indian entities and no hint of removing them. it is utterly shameless if we allow
them to take more of our money and still keep sanctions on us. we are already paying gucci prices for c17/c130j/m777/p8. we should have
rejected the US presidents visit unless all sanctions removed before.

unkil is never happy with india and doesnt need our money (he can simply run the press and print more $$). unkil wants to curry influence in our
political class (done) and in our armed forces (an ongoing process held back by a few isolated patriots).

we can influence unkil by making his life difficult in the region. not through cash handouts in $$.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Carl_T » 12 Aug 2010 22:27

If the report is correct it is good though to see that cost is being given a big priority in decision. We shouldn't fall into the trap of trying to get the best plane possible.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SanjibGhosh » 12 Aug 2010 23:04

Decision on multi-billion fighter plane deal may be political
http://www.zeenews.com/news647903.html

This seems to be most balanced report .... Also one important point ....

They also refused to comment on the aircraft's suitability for the IAF, but said, "all platforms are top of the line aircraft."

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 12 Aug 2010 23:45

SanjibGhosh wrote:Decision on multi-billion fighter plane deal may be political
http://www.zeenews.com/news647903.html

This seems to be most balanced report .... Also one important point ....

They also refused to comment on the aircraft's suitability for the IAF, but said, "all platforms are top of the line aircraft."


its actually getting tiring now with all the re-hashed stuff..ACM Naik mentioned all the points that were mentioned in this report, except that all the contenders did not comply with some or the other ASQR. They apparently don't do any proof reading with these reports either, since they quoted the deal value at Rs 4700 crores instead of Rs 47000 crores.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 13 Aug 2010 01:42

Indian Fighter Downselect Coming
Aviation Week
Image
French President Sarkozy’s visit to India this year is expected to be followed by a Host of Inducements, including a Large Transfer of Technology, on behalf of the Rafale.

India has yet to sign the Communications and Information Security Memorandum of Agreement with the U.S. that sets limits on what sensitive technology the U.S. will export. It may be signed during President Barack Obama’s scheduled visit to India in November.

Beyond informal briefings said to already have taken place, the six manufacturers are to receive a 250-page technical evaluation of how they did.

Problems during the Trials included the Failures of Engines and Large Electromechanical Actuation Systems.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby venkat_r » 13 Aug 2010 01:48

If MRCA goes Euro then there are vey high chances that LCA-2 and MCA would have many components also sourced from the same place, especially to keep commonality. This is a great foot in the door for anyone.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby hiteshrai » 13 Aug 2010 02:52

Lets wait and see what happens. Only 2 months left till Obama's visit. We have been waiting 6 odd years for this, so i guess 2 more months won't hurt! :)

David Siegel wrote:A Big Fat MMRCA Update
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/08/big-fat-mmrca-update.html

Sick of hearsay and rumours? Well, here's some stuff that's confirmed true, new, and potentially explosive for contenders in the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition. Let me just start by saying that the ball is squarely with the MoD now -- the field evaluation trial report has been submitted, but has not yet been approved by the MoD. There is likely to be a measure of back and forth between South Block and Vayu Bhawan before it is approved and passed on for the next stage. In the meanwhile, chew on this. No rumours here.

Point One, The Indian Air Force won't choose a twin-engine aircraft in the MMRCA, if a single-engine aircraft can "do the job", i.e, is satisfactorily compliant on all 643 test points that each of the six airplanes were tested for during the field evaluation trials (FETs). The IAF is of the view that both single and twin engine platforms have their own advantages, but that it will not discriminate between the two. If all six aircraft are compliant, the cheapest will be selected whether its twin or single-engined.

Point Two, and this is a biggie -- The model being used to gauge cost is not the lifecycle cost (LCC) model as was previously thought. That model has been dumped since the IAF perceives it to be indeterminable (read, ambiguous), and not measured in precisely the same way across the six aircraft being offered. In other words, the MMRCA purchase model will be based on unit flyaway cost of aircraft and financing options -- i.e, not overall cost of ownership. The IAF decided that it would only work with what is "determinable". In other words, no complex formulae on future savings on maintenance and overhaul. Do you see why I used the word bombshell in the post title? :)

Point Three, cost is going to be a big determinant. Out of the six aircraft that are judged compliant, the cheapest will be identified as L1, and will logically be the chosen aircraft.

Point Three-and-a-half, it emerges now that each vendor was extensively briefed on their performance once the trials were over, so they have a comprehensive sense of how they performed -- their function of compliance, if you will -- but they have nothing to compare it with. So unless you account for industrial espionage, none of the vendors know how the others have performed, but know exactly how well or badly their own platform performed during trials.

Point Four, the air force's trial report has been submitted to the MoD, but the latter hasn't approved it yet. The trial report strictly contains a tabulated representation of each contending platform's compliance or otherwise for each of 643 test points. Significantly, the trial report does not quantify the level of compliance of each airplane, but rather leaves this for the MoD to understand. In other words, the trial report has all the data and results, but no recommendations, no merit list, no explicit downselect, no stated eliminations, nothing. Yet, by virtue of the data it presents, everything is implicit. It provides the data. It provides the benchmarks for compliance. The MoD figures out who's in, who's not quite in, who's definitely out. The IAF hasn't put that down. The IAF has submitted a "factual report" -- the rest is upto the MoD. Again, there's been no ranking at any stage.

Point Five, there have been frequent attempts by various players to suggest that some of the non-US contenders will have trouble getting export licenses for subsystems that may be of American origin (like the Gripen's engines, weapons on some of the others etc). Let's lay that to rest for now -- the IAF extracted government-endorsed guarantees from each such contending vendor that there would be no problems in the supply of such equipment, and it was based on this guarantee certificate that the contender was allowed to participate in trials.

Finally, the option exists for the IAF to go for more than 126 aircraft, but a decision has not yet been taken on whether to club that option with the principal purchase.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Guddu » 13 Aug 2010 04:41

So Ombaba is coming in nov, anyone know when sarkozy is coming (this year)..and who is representing the tiffy ?. Since the swedish pm is not coming, I think they can be considered excluded. I would not expect the govt to decide until after the salesmen have come and gone.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby ManuT » 13 Aug 2010 04:53



This is a needless case of 'PD' by the spokesman.

Great to know Pakis are not flying UAE planes F-16. But did they guarantee it?

This was mentioned it in 2 front war thread in the context of resources available to TSPAF. I was speaking from memory and though I cannot produce the pact between PAF UAE, this is from wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UAE_Air_Force

In the 70s the UAEAF were instructed and trained by Pakistan Air Force pilots on Mirage IIIs, the backbone of the UAEAF in those days. Even today numerous amount of personnel in the UAE Air Force, are ex-Pakistani Air Force officers and techinicians. Most of the flying instructors at Al Ain are from Pakistan, instructing on the PC-7 and the Hawk 63. A few officers at No.12 Squadron (Hawk 102) at Minhad AB, are from Pakistan Air Force. Most of these officers are either on deputation(active service) or on civilian contracts with the Air Force Headquarters (AHQ) in Abu Dhabi.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Thomas Kolarek » 13 Aug 2010 04:56

Those money hungry monsters in LM :twisted:
ManuT wrote:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby hiteshrai » 13 Aug 2010 05:24

Don't know about UAE, but I have a friend from Pakistan whose dad is a retired air force personnel. He told me that there is an agreement between Saudis and Pakistanis, in case of a war, they would support each other including air force.

PS: I live outside India.

ManuT wrote:


This is a needless case of 'PD' by the spokesman.

Great to know Pakis are not flying UAE planes F-16. But did they guarantee it?

This was mentioned it in 2 front war thread in the context of resources available to TSPAF. I was speaking from memory and though I cannot produce the pact between PAF UAE, this is from wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UAE_Air_Force

In the 70s the UAEAF were instructed and trained by Pakistan Air Force pilots on Mirage IIIs, the backbone of the UAEAF in those days. Even today numerous amount of personnel in the UAE Air Force, are ex-Pakistani Air Force officers and techinicians. Most of the flying instructors at Al Ain are from Pakistan, instructing on the PC-7 and the Hawk 63. A few officers at No.12 Squadron (Hawk 102) at Minhad AB, are from Pakistan Air Force. Most of these officers are either on deputation(active service) or on civilian contracts with the Air Force Headquarters (AHQ) in Abu Dhabi.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby hiteshrai » 13 Aug 2010 05:32

Can't remember the news source, but Sarkozy is coming at the end of this year or beginning of next year. If next year, I suspect he'll be the guest of honour on Republic Day. India would do this to repay the honour the French gave our Jawans during their National day parade earlier this year. As for EADS, the English Prime Minister indirectly did EADS a favour by firing a salvo against Pakistan (This happened during his recent visit to India). The key thing to keep in mind is that British are the highest stake holders in the Tiffy program.

BTW.... That was great to watch! Finally another super power other than Russia clearly spoke in our favour. We do have to thank British for that.

Guddu wrote:So Ombaba is coming in nov, anyone know when sarkozy is coming (this year)..and who is representing the tiffy ?. Since the swedish pm is not coming, I think they can be considered excluded. I would not expect the govt to decide until after the salesmen have come and gone.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Ambar » 13 Aug 2010 06:36

hiteshrai wrote:Don't know about UAE, but I have a friend from Pakistan whose dad is a retired air force personnel. He told me that there is an agreement between Saudis and Pakistanis, in case of a war, they would support each other including air force.

PS: I live outside India.




Rubbish! Those bakshish cans outside mosques in UAE might go brimming with alms for Pakis in case of an all our war with India, but UAE is not dumb enough to send their airforce to fight IAF. Did Abu Dhabi/Dubai fight the Israelis during Yom-Kippur war? If they did not back their arab brothers fight their arch nemesis, what makes it plausible that they'll pledge their airforce to fight the Indians? That Paki friend of yours was yanking your chain and was pulling stuff out of his musharraf like they always do..

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Thomas Kolarek » 13 Aug 2010 06:44

Ambar wrote:Rubbish! Those bakshish cans outside mosques in UAE might go brimming with alms for Pakis in case of an all our war with India, but UAE is not dumb enough to send their airforce to fight IAF. Did Abu Dhabi/Dubai fight the Israelis during Yom-Kippur war? If they did not back their arab brothers fight their arch nemesis, what makes it plausible that they'll pledge their airforce to fight the Indians? That Paki friend of yours was yanking your chain and was pulling stuff out of his musharraf like they always do..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_%E2%80%93_Saudi_Arabia_relations
Military cooperation

Pakistan maintains close military ties with Saudi Arabia, providing extensive support, arms and training for the Military of Saudi Arabia.[2] Pilots of the Pakistan Air Force flew aircraft of the Royal Saudi Air Force to repel an incursion from South Yemen in 1969. In the 1970s and 1980s, approximately 15,000 Pakistani soldiers were stationed in the kingdom.[2] Saudi Arabia has negotiated the purchase of Pakistani ballistic missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads.[2] It is also speculated that Saudi Arabia secretly funded Pakistan's nuclear programme and seeks to purchase atomic weapons from Pakistan to enable it to counteract possible threats from arsenals of the weapons of mass destruction possessed by Iran, Iraq and Israel.[5][6][7] Both nations have received high-level delegations of scientists, government and military experts seeking to study the development of a nuclear programme.[5][8][2]

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Ambar » 13 Aug 2010 07:11

Thomas Kolarek wrote:
Ambar wrote:Rubbish! Those bakshish cans outside mosques in UAE might go brimming with alms for Pakis in case of an all our war with India, but UAE is not dumb enough to send their airforce to fight IAF. Did Abu Dhabi/Dubai fight the Israelis during Yom-Kippur war? If they did not back their arab brothers fight their arch nemesis, what makes it plausible that they'll pledge their airforce to fight the Indians? That Paki friend of yours was yanking your chain and was pulling stuff out of his musharraf like they always do..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_%E2%80%93_Saudi_Arabia_relations
Military cooperation

Pakistan maintains close military ties with Saudi Arabia, providing extensive support, arms and training for the Military of Saudi Arabia.[2] Pilots of the Pakistan Air Force flew aircraft of the Royal Saudi Air Force to repel an incursion from South Yemen in 1969. In the 1970s and 1980s, approximately 15,000 Pakistani soldiers were stationed in the kingdom.[2] Saudi Arabia has negotiated the purchase of Pakistani ballistic missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads.[2] It is also speculated that Saudi Arabia secretly funded Pakistan's nuclear programme and seeks to purchase atomic weapons from Pakistan to enable it to counteract possible threats from arsenals of the weapons of mass destruction possessed by Iran, Iraq and Israel.[5][6][7] Both nations have received high-level delegations of scientists, government and military experts seeking to study the development of a nuclear programme.[5][8][2]


That is a well known fact.Pakis serving as instructors and consultants to UAE af is purely for monetary purposes and not a strategic design.UAE has nothing to gain by fighting for Pakis in a war against India, but Pakis have everything to lose by not helping UAE quell its enemies.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby ManuT » 13 Aug 2010 07:15

My last post on this LM topic, because it is OT in this thread.

Ambar wrote:Rubbish! ...

In 1971
PAF in the West was reinforced by:
1. F-104s from Jordan (6).
2. Mirages F5 from unidentified (Libya)
3. F-86s from KSA.

These helped PAF rig its numbers about its losses. TSP failed to return the planes after the war.
Last edited by ManuT on 13 Aug 2010 11:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby rajsunder » 13 Aug 2010 07:36

nachiket wrote:
:lol: So the "news" about Rafale and EF being at the top was all hogwash as expected. With above three points Gripen, Mig-35 and F-solah go back to the top again. As I said before, the government won't buy a $100 million aircraft especially when cheaper ones are available. And now it seems that the IAF agrees with this. Chances of Rafale/EF/superbug being chosen seem remote now.


As of now we do not know how many marks are being awarded for each of the test points. IAF sure needs some technology infusion from MRCA to build MCA. Personally I believe that the plane with high technology and moderate maintenance costs would make the cut.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Neshant » 13 Aug 2010 08:52

Juggi G wrote:French President Sarkozy’s visit to India this year is expected to be followed by a Host of Inducements, including a Large Transfer of Technology, on behalf of the Rafale.


Transfer of Technology is a bunch of bunk.

The only thing transferred is hard earned money from India to subsidise the R&D base of a foreign country.

Nobody is going to teach Indian scientists and engineers how to do R&D.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 13 Aug 2010 09:41

indonesia also sent a few planes in 1971 I think.

but the situation has changed in last 40 yrs. nobody in ummah is going to come to their aid this time except maybe the saudi E3's flying out of dhahran on 'exercises' and to 'monitor the situation' could pickup indian air movements near makran coast and tip the pakis off if they can...

ofcourse after any war, they will contribute money and free oil. this they do anyway.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby prastor » 13 Aug 2010 09:58

I still feel whoever offers full AESA and Engine tech transfer will win this deal. It is very obvious this is not about replacement fighters. More Indian-made MKI's would easily counter the massive Chinese flanker fleets. All this tamasha is obviously to get what an MKI can't give us: AESA and reliable western engine technology. It will be either the EF or the F-18 depending on the outcome of Obama's visit.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 13 Aug 2010 12:45

Shiv Aroor reports..

Boeing Offers India "Super Hornet International Roadmap"

Boeing has said it is offering India the "International Super Hornet Roadmap", which it describes as the next evolution of the Block II Super Hornet -- "which increases survivability, situational awareness, and performance for customers". The company says it has been investing in the International Roadmap for the last two years along with the US Navy. Under the programme, says Boeing, if India chooses the Super Hornet as part of the MMRCA, the Indian Air Force will have the option of adding evolutionary technologies to the platform within this decade on an incremental basis starting 2015.

Funded by the US Navy and developed by Boeing, the roadmap on offer allows for the planned insertion of maturing technologies over time. Boeing says this would give the IAF flexibility over the years if they want to insert/ integrate the following new technologies:-

-Enhanced Performance Engines
-Next-generation cockpit
-Spherical missile laser warning
-Internal Infra-Red Search & Track (IRST)
-Conformal fuel tanks (see aircraft in slide)
-Enclosed weapons pod (see aircraft in slide)
-Designed-in stealth


Future survivability technology that will "make the Block II Super Hornet harder to detect, harder to hit, and harder to kill"
According to a note that Boeing sent over, "While India is getting Block II of the Super Hornet, the International Super Hornet roadmap gives India the choice of considerable growth potential. India will be able to participate as an International Super Hornet Roadmap customer, if desired, and could potentially enhance future Indian Super Hornets. The design and growth of the Super Hornet has been done keeping a 40 year life span during which the aircraft remains combat proven."

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby tejas » 13 Aug 2010 12:58

^^^^^ Boeing will allow India to pay thru the nose for future purchases on its F-18 AoA!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Arya Sumantra » 13 Aug 2010 13:38

First they offer an underpowered sea-plane for rarified atmosphere operations the job it must be able to do, second make us pay subsequently for a TWR others are offering today and have the gall to say "let's see how much india can cough out" for something the plane with 3rd class twr should already have incorporated.

They know that if they provide all those absolutely necessary things now, their bid will go higher which is an acceptance that if rendered capable, the plane could be as costly as eurobirds.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 13 Aug 2010 14:12

thoo. it will end up twice as costly as the rest, and the rest like gripenNG already are going to have at FCS or have it.

imo the airframe should be lean, fast,capacious and powerful ....all the best sensors and radars on a weak airframe doesnt make it a world beater. F-solah's claim to fame was a great airframe and so too m2k...the rest of bells and whistles came later.

that way F18 of any vintage doesnt make the mark as a a2a killer app. all the others to some extent do, though the F-solah-60 is clearly labouring after all those bumps and humps bolted on to it.

rafale, gripen-NG and typhoon are the true options for me.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby P Chitkara » 13 Aug 2010 14:47

One thing is for sure - no certificates (as mentioned on livefist) matter if unkil decides not to disallow use of the equipment supplied by it. It will be very naive if we take those certificates seriously and get the teens.

Tiffy and Rafale, though expensive will be immune from it to a very large extent. True TOT is a hogwash, why will anyone give away the trumpcard in lieu of $$$? Had it been what it is meant to be, many other countries would have been manufacturing aircrafts of their own.

It may provide some insight to those technologies and that is just what it is. Nothing more.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 13 Aug 2010 15:42

^^Enqyoob gave the best example, "would you buy an ambassador either Mark 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5?" whatever bells and whistles its a 60s plane which huffs puffs and pants even with powerful engines.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Willy » 13 Aug 2010 15:58

Me thinks the order should go to the one who is willing to help us build an indigenous AESA and an engine for both the LCA and the MCA and here I dont mean just supplying us with key compoments but helping us build from scratch.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 13 Aug 2010 18:28

singha-ji, no doubt saudi awacs will think about their maintenance schedules should Viraat or Vikramaditya be rumoured to be somewhere off the gulf of aden and Mig29ks are spotted and consider it an appropriate time to go to the hanger

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 13 Aug 2010 20:24

stop it! you'll get the paklurks (animal husbandry dept.) all excited!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 13 Aug 2010 20:31

The Power Of U.S. Arms Sales

Current U.S. efforts to provide India with either F-16 or F/A-18 fighters is a good example of how emerging political relationships can be backed up by judicious foreign military sales. Hopefully, the Obama Administration will recognize the strategic significance of the current competition for fighter sales to India and decide to match the involvement of other governments in the pending sale.


If the eventual decision ends up carrying more political weight-age then its going to be hard for others to match unkil..

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby JimmyJ » 13 Aug 2010 21:13

London to reduce fighter jets numbers
Moreover, the number of Eurofighter Typhoons could be cut by 53 to 107 planes.


Hmm...So to what extend is the future of Typhoon going to be affected, I guess EADS will have to swim the strait alone.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 13 Aug 2010 21:22

dont worry, US will cut too
they need to fund the war, not have shiny toys
budgets are limited

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 13 Aug 2010 22:56

just watched back to back f18 and ef displays in farnborough recorded by a guy named airboyd in youtube. ef was flying with aams, 3 tanks, 4 lgb and f18 with 8 aams. even then the f18 roll rate and climb rate looked quite sluggish compared to ef. f18 did show off its famed slow speed control and easy handling not that a python5 wouldnt like that.

I would say the compromises needed for carrier aviation and its base template being the f18c have crippled this airframe for the fast moving a2a killer app work. it can ofcourse play the bvr game and bomb truck role, but a a2a in the ef class its probably not.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 13 Aug 2010 23:26

Singha wrote:it can ofcourse play the bvr game and bomb truck role, but a a2a in the ef class its probably not.


You're still thinking in the 'get on their 6 and pump them full of lead' mode.

Aerial combat is no longer fought like that.

The SH has better radar, better countermeasures and lower RCS.

And more importantly, it has the backing of the USN to KEEP it better for the next 30 years.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Surya » 14 Aug 2010 00:08

Aerial combat is no longer fought like that.


only when it is between unequals

unfortunately in our case we will never have that overwhelming advantage till the US and China stop bankrolling the beggars across the border

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 14 Aug 2010 00:14

Surya wrote:
Aerial combat is no longer fought like that.


only when it is between unequals

unfortunately in our case we will never have that overwhelming advantage till the US and China stop bankrolling the beggars across the border



?

No, it has nothing to do about equals or unequals, no one is stupid enough to do it that way anymore.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 Aug 2010 00:17

and the best version of radar and countermeasures will be denied on f18.

raw old-school a2a ability still has its place - acceleration , climb rate, sustained turn rate...else the f22 or pakfa would not be needed.
in these the f18 *cough cough* is not the best around.

GeorgeWelch
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 14 Aug 2010 01:12

Singha wrote:and the best version of radar and countermeasures will be denied on f18.


Not true.


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