MRCA News and Discussion

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Surya
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Surya » 14 Aug 2010 02:00

No, it has nothing to do about equals or unequals, no one is stupid enough to do it that way anymore.


when did the US last fight an equal with all the systems (AWACS, jammers etc. ) that the US has that allows the F 18 to knock down from far without having to get on the 6 - ??

Eyeraq?? :)

Yes no one is stupid to do so BUT most others do not have a choice.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 14 Aug 2010 02:04

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Singha wrote:and the best version of radar and countermeasures will be denied on f18.


Not true.


if India signs the CISMOA agreement

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Arya Sumantra » 14 Aug 2010 05:51

I still don't understand how planes coming with agreements can be allowed to be treated on par with other planes. That's comparing Apples and Wood ! Only among planes without agreements/treaties can using L1 be explained. Otherwise for control that they seek, one can even throw the baits(f-solah, attharah) for a loss. And where are the strategic-risk costs that should be added to unkil’s flyaway costs ? MMRCA should have had “No Agreements of euma, eula type” as a pre-requisite clause before even getting to the prices.

Put together all the treaties, agreements and military alliance business is nothing else but modern formats of Lord Wellesley's Subsidiary Alliance System. Our forefathers fought hard to deliver us from the consequences of that “alliance”. Today’s imperialism is virtual and indirect. There is a good reason why Charles deGaulle did not let France become the full member of NATO. The main consequence of any alliance is subjugation and neutering of allies by the leader of the alliance.

And all these logistics support treaties are nothing but a first step towards forming a permanent base in the subcontinent. Once a base is formed, removing it by force is tantamount to fighting with unkil. The Japs have held protest after protest in okie-nav-aa but to no avail. Looking at Logistics support treaties, one is just reminded of the story of Arab-in-a-tent and the Camel on a winter night. The Camel asks the arab to be allowed one leg inside the tent to escape the cold. With one body part after another, inside the tent, with subsequent requests, eventually the Camel is fully inside the tent and Arab moved out.

Repayment for 123 deal means we agree to let them make money out of us with lucrative deals but we had not offered to sign sovereignity surrendering treaties. If they have nothing to sell without treaties(euma, cismoa, eula, lsa……..) then how can we repay them? Not our fault.


And how can a nation that mentored simi founder, is a fighter for secessionist’s rights in garb of human rights, gives arms to barkistan for free to keep us in check, still has active sanctions on our institutions ever want to see us strong by strategically partnering us?. What sort of naivete is this? And in the event of any military crackdown on Maoists, not an impossibility given that it’s getting worse, which nation will be at forefront of applying sanctions again in the pretext of human-rights(terrorists’ rights). Who wants to ground fleets again?

The nation is still paying for Nehru’s self-image boosting “peace lover” policies in Kashmir. For generations to come Indians will raise finger at MMS for signing away our sovereignty and national interests.

To the sell-outs in power backing unkil planes, you are as mistaken about this being “regular corruption” just like fishermen of the vessel Kuber mistook the co-operation with 26/11 terrorists as “regular smuggling”. This is big part of neutering us. Do you think they care about $10billion?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Thomas Kolarek » 14 Aug 2010 06:07

Very well said. The ego centric puppet will sell every one of us out. God Bless India !

Arya Sumantra wrote:I still don't understand how planes coming with agreements can be allowed to be treated on par with other planes. That's comparing Apples and Wood ! Only among planes without agreements/treaties can using L1 be explained. Otherwise for control that they seek, one can even throw the baits(f-solah, attharah) for a loss. And where are the strategic-risk costs that should be added to unkil’s flyaway costs ? MMRCA should have had “No Agreements of euma, eula type” as a pre-requisite clause before even getting to the prices.

Put together all the treaties, agreements and military alliance business is nothing else but modern formats of Lord Wellesley's Subsidiary Alliance System. Our forefathers fought hard to deliver us from the consequences of that “alliance”. Today’s imperialism is virtual and indirect. There is a good reason why Charles deGaulle did not let France become the full member of NATO. The main consequence of any alliance is subjugation and neutering of allies by the leader of the alliance.

And all these logistics support treaties are nothing but a first step towards forming a permanent base in the subcontinent. Once a base is formed, removing it by force is tantamount to fighting with unkil. The Japs have held protest after protest in okie-nav-aa but to no avail. Looking at Logistics support treaties, one is just reminded of the story of Arab-in-a-tent and the Camel on a winter night. The Camel asks the arab to be allowed one leg inside the tent to escape the cold. With one body part after another, inside the tent, with subsequent requests, eventually the Camel is fully inside the tent and Arab moved out.

Repayment for 123 deal means we agree to let them make money out of us with lucrative deals but we had not offered to sign sovereignity surrendering treaties. If they have nothing to sell without treaties(euma, cismoa, eula, lsa……..) then how can we repay them? Not our fault.


And how can a nation that mentored simi founder, is a fighter for secessionist’s rights in garb of human rights, gives arms to barkistan for free to keep us in check, still has active sanctions on our institutions ever want to see us strong by strategically partnering us?. What sort of naivete is this? And in the event of any military crackdown on Maoists, not an impossibility given that it’s getting worse, which nation will be at forefront of applying sanctions again in the pretext of human-rights(terrorists’ rights). Who wants to ground fleets again?

The nation is still paying for Nehru’s self-image boosting “peace lover” policies in Kashmir. For generations to come Indians will raise finger at MMS for signing away our sovereignty and national interests.

To the sell-outs in power backing unkil planes, you are as mistaken about this being “regular corruption” just like fishermen of the vessel Kuber mistook the co-operation with 26/11 terrorists as “regular smuggling”. This is big part of neutering us. Do you think they care about $10billion?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 14 Aug 2010 06:17

Arya Sumantra ^^^: I still don't understand how planes coming with agreements can be allowed to be treated on par with other planes.

I don't either but hey! the Pakis used F-86s, F-104s against us and they had a lot of restrictions on them. Why do we feel we need to observe the letter of the agreement?

Granted the F/A could (repeat could) come with a dumbed-down version of everything but (and I don't know this) even that would have more than a few years on what the Europeans are going to offer in their dumbed down versions.

Also, the thought that there is a backdoor in the event of war with Pakistan needs to be put aside. We are not going to bomb Pakistan. We did not after Kargil, after 2001 or 26/11.

The real issue is the Panda. There's troubling brewing beyond the S. Vietnam sea. The Chinese drove the Yuan down all of a sudden against the Dollar...

In any drawn out scrap with the Panda, no one will churn out/replenish attrition replacements like unkil. The French and the Germans go on vacation (a lot) and besides they have union rules and we would just have to wait for the parts. None of the Europeans are planning to increase defense spending and this bodes ill for unit costs.

If we think Pakistan is our strategic enemy go with anything non-American. If it's China, beware the Europeans.

Don't even bother about the Russians and the 'MiG-35' . We'd be better off just ordering more MKIs

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 14 Aug 2010 07:26

Gripen's 32-Page Supplement
With Latest Edition of INDIA TODAY Magazine

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Arya Sumantra » 14 Aug 2010 07:35

Cosmo_R wrote:Why do we feel we need to observe the letter of the agreement?

If it is so trivial why don't they remove it.

Cosmo_R wrote:I don't either but hey! the Pakis used F-86s, F-104s against us and they had a lot of restrictions on them.

Pakis have only one enemy and to take a hit at whom they will accept subservience, overlordship and interference of anyone. They themselves are not an (industrial & economic) threat to any major power but the rival nation is. So restrictions or none everything gifted to them will always work when used against India.

Cosmo_R wrote:Granted the F/A could (repeat could) come with a dumbed-down version of everything but (and I don't know this) even that would have more than a few years on what the Europeans are going to offer in their dumbed down versions.

dumbed down or not, a plane without strings is always better than a marginally superior plane with strings. People vote for dependability more than unpredictable/inconsistent superiority.

Cosmo_R wrote:The real issue is the Panda.

Exactly how one princely state worried about other was played upon and fell in the lap of Lord Wellesley.

Cosmo_R wrote:In any drawn out scrap with the Panda, no one will churn out/replenish attrition replacements like unkil.

India does not need unkil to take on panda. In today's times virtually everything can be done with missiles. Only thing is, a fighter plane (if it survives enemy defences) can be more efficient and situation-specific at lobbing targets whereas missiles are good for pre-decided targets. But still in this age of satellite based intel missiles can do the same impromptu target selection as fighter hovering in enemy skies does. You think $12billion worth of Brahmos+Shaurya+Agni+AAD/PAD can't do as much deterence as unkil's fighters? All india needs to do is mass produce already tested missiles in droves.
India may be attracted to yank mil tech but since it is not available for purchase but only for lease we can afford (due to strategic deterence) to kiss yank stuff good bye until yanks "reform & liberalise" sales policy.

OT but how did you get away without a human sounding name for so many posts?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Luxtor » 14 Aug 2010 08:28

Lalmohan wrote:stop it! you'll get the paklurks (animal husbandry dept.) all excited!


^ ^ ^

Oh my God! :lol: :lol: :lol: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 Aug 2010 09:56

did other countries who purchased US reactors sign a nuclear liability bill?
does areva and rosatom require similar let-off-hook treaties?

US can get by with good(but not best of breed) fighters because of their network centric system and 'offboard support'. since India cannot
acquire such a network for few decades we need excellent fighters who are multirole and can fight on their own if need be.

remember IAF is a force that to this day doesnt have a fleet wide MIDS type datalink, only 2 awacs with few squadrons trained for it using
verbal radio commands, do dedicated SEAD a/c, no dedicated growlers, very few refuelers.....we cannot even dream of usaf levels of
'logging into the network' at this point.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Patrick Cusack » 14 Aug 2010 10:10

Pakistani pilots are already being trained by UAE on Rafael it will not be long before KSA helps out with Euro fighter. If a war ever breaks out -God forbid - all bets are off.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Neshant » 14 Aug 2010 10:28

Singha wrote:did other countries who purchased US reactors sign a nuclear liability bill?
does areva and rosatom require similar let-off-hook treaties?



even with 75 million liability cap in their own country, they managed to squeeze 20 billion out of BP.

But we are OT here.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby JimmyJ » 14 Aug 2010 11:07

Singha wrote:did other countries who purchased US reactors sign a nuclear liability bill?
does areva and rosatom require similar let-off-hook treaties?

US can get by with good(but not best of breed) fighters because of their network centric system and 'offboard support'. since India cannot
acquire such a network for few decades we need excellent fighters who are multirole and can fight on their own if need be.

remember IAF is a force that to this day doesnt have a fleet wide MIDS type datalink, only 2 awacs with few squadrons trained for it using
verbal radio commands, do dedicated SEAD a/c, no dedicated growlers, very few refuelers.....we cannot even dream of usaf levels of
'logging into the network' at this point.

The Civil Nuclear Liability Bill:IDSA

Not sure if that pdf is still available, but it was a good read.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby svinayak » 14 Aug 2010 12:54

Arya Sumantra wrote: Do you think they care about $10billion?

Not many people understand this

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 14 Aug 2010 14:10

Hint Hint:

Once Paki made an entire armoured unit out of amriki pattons and amriki says that were cheated into it. : 1965

The f-86 and other planes came from Iran and friendly countries.: 1971

f-16's were still flying after restrictions for almost 1 decade and half (read Turkey):

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nrshah » 14 Aug 2010 14:13

Arya Sumantra wrote:I still don't understand how planes coming with agreements can be allowed to be treated on par with other planes. That's comparing Apples and Wood ! Only among planes without agreements/treaties can using L1 be explained. Otherwise for control that they seek, one can even throw the baits(f-solah, attharah) for a loss. And where are the strategic-risk costs that should be added to unkil’s flyaway costs ? MMRCA should have had “No Agreements of euma, eula type” as....................................................


Great Post bro...Dont think, things can be put in better way.....

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Tanaji » 14 Aug 2010 14:43

Patrick Cusack wrote:Pakistani pilots are already being trained by UAE on Rafael it will not be long before KSA helps out with Euro fighter. If a war ever breaks out -God forbid - all bets are off.


Rafale and Euro Fighter are close to $75M each (depending on how you look at it). Add to that armament costs. If even 8 aircraft are sent , thats around $600M. Ummah ka chumma is all very fine and good, but when push comes to shove, do you really think KSA/UAE are going to risk more than half a billion to support their ummah ka chumma buddies? There is a recession on , you know.

Pakis like to paint the picture that they will get all the latest aircraft from their buddies, but like, djinn technology these are their wet dreams. At best what they will get is AWACS cover from the AWACS flying in UAE airspace.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 Aug 2010 14:48

the deputed paf pilots will have a tough time flying back on PIA and having to ride the bander into battle immediately.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 14 Aug 2010 15:24

[quote="Arya Sumantra"][quote="Cosmo_R"]

No objections to your POV. If you think Pakistan is the strategic enemy so be it you are entitled. I think China is a far greater threat in the longer term. Their intimidation of SE Asian countries is a case in point bu then I'm entitled.

"OT but how did you get away without a human sounding name for so many posts?"

Off topic indeed. My handle is no less human than yours and you have been quite prolific. Let's focus on the topic.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Srivastav » 14 Aug 2010 15:34

Cosmo_R wrote:
Arya Sumantra wrote:
"OT but how did you get away without a human sounding name for so many posts?"

Off topic indeed. My handle is no less human than yours and you have been quite prolific. Let's focus on the topic.


OT ALERT

In Seinfeld, Jerry Seinfeld's neighbors name was Cosmo Kramer

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 14 Aug 2010 16:44

Shiv Aroor reports..

Not be left behind in media wars. LM pushes for F-16..

F-16IN Has Great Growth Prospects

"While the Super Viper is a new design just for India, it is also the starting point for future growth. The F-16 has a well documented history of continuous evolution in capability. This is very important since the F-16IN is inherently designed for a long service life (in excess of 6500 flight hours). During this service life the desire will likely arise for significant upgradation to add capability for expanded mission roles, improved combat capability, and reduced operating costs. There are two primary enablers to this evolution: technology advancements and a proactive upgradation strategy.

Technology Advancements.

The Super Viper is on the cutting edge of fighter aircraft technology with its 5th gen-based AESA radar, fiber optics data network, large flat panel color displays and the latest precision weapons. Starting now the Super Viper has inherent growth capacity due to ample unused space and large processing reserves. Nevertheless, emerging technologies will enable even greater capability. The history of technology advancement, especially for digital systems, shows that this added capability comes in increasingly smaller packages with lower power requirements. (Today’s mobile phone includes web browsing, games, and video in a smaller size than yesterday’s voice-only device.) The F-16 has demonstrated this many times across seven major block changes. This includes five generations of core avionics, five radar versions, ten different EW suites, and dozens of new weapons without changing the aircraft structure or size. To take advantage of these new technologies the Super Viper has a growth-oriented architecture for adding new systems and capabilities. Maximum use has been made of commercial standards and technology such as processing, software and networking.

Upgradation Strategy.

The U.S. Air Force along with the European operators of the F-16 have been jointly executing a long term continuous upgradation strategy since the beginning of the F-16 program. As part of the overall sustainment philosophy, this strategy recognizes the need for continuous improvement and it defines a step-wise approach to keeping the F-16 on the forefront of war fighting capability. There are F-16s flying today in the U.S. and in Europe that are 30 years old but they have the same systems and capabilities as a new Block 50 F-16. At the heart of the strategy is a long term capability improvement roadmap which is synchronized with technology-driven improvements in weapons, sensors, displays, and computing. These key technology areas have their own improvement roadmaps which dovetail with the aircraft capability improvement roadmap. The roadmap is implemented through a series of software releases and hardware updates. For the U.S. and European Air Forces there is typically a major software release each 18 months. This allows for balance between rapid fielding of new capability and time required to assimilate the new capabilities into operational use. Major hardware updates are likewise spaced out to optimize fleet management while aircraft are being inducted into the modification program.

In summary, the growth potential for the Super Viper is much more than just the currently available spare capacity. Combining the latest technologies with a long term continuous upgradation strategy will keep the F-16IN relevant from the day it is first inducted until it is finally retired from service."

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Anthony Hines » 14 Aug 2010 17:02

Singha wrote:just watched back to back f18 and ef displays in farnborough recorded by a guy named airboyd in youtube. ef was flying with aams, 3 tanks, 4 lgb and f18 with 8 aams. even then the f18 roll rate and climb rate looked quite sluggish compared to ef. f18 did show off its famed slow speed control and easy handling not that a python5 wouldnt like that.

I would say the compromises needed for carrier aviation and its base template being the f18c have crippled this airframe for the fast moving a2a killer app work. it can ofcourse play the bvr game and bomb truck role, but a a2a in the ef class its probably not.


Singhaji,

I saw the EF engaging afterburn several times.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby JimmyJ » 14 Aug 2010 17:13

Unfortunately they missed out one point, that these upgrades will also be available for the Pakistani operated F-16 and so 20 years down the time both IAF and PAF will have F-16s with same capability.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Brando » 14 Aug 2010 17:35

Cosmo_R wrote:The real issue is the Panda. There's troubling brewing beyond the S. Vietnam sea. The Chinese drove the Yuan down all of a sudden against the Dollar...

In any drawn out scrap with the Panda, no one will churn out/replenish attrition replacements like unkil. The French and the Germans go on vacation (a lot) and besides they have union rules and we would just have to wait for the parts. None of the Europeans are planning to increase defense spending and this bodes ill for unit costs.

If we think Pakistan is our strategic enemy go with anything non-American. If it's China, beware the Europeans.


Your points make sense, IF and this is a big IF, the USA decides to side with India over China. They haven't demonstrated the willingness to do so yet! In fact, when ever the Democrats/liberals come to power, the Chinese only seem to get stronger and steal more American military secrets than ever before! Clinton did the same thing with China and let them have a free run. Now the amateur Obama is bending over backwards to accommodate the Chinese so that they will rob America blind technologically and economically.

Unlike the Cold War where the US has great presidents like Regan, Bush 1 etc, the current crop of US Presidents are either maniacs or pansies. Further, unlike Western Europe, the American citizenry by and large have NO real ties with India. In fact, India is seen more negatively than positively due to its outsourcing industry and is hardly considered a "Western Democracy" that they would feel obliged to support like they did with Western Europe or Israel. Also, unlike the Cold War, the Chinese have the American over the barrel debt wise and the American Federal Reserve is not in any mood to unshackle themselves from the Chinese and roll the dice on the American economy. America is sure as hell not going to do an 1967 Israeli supply drop thing for India in case of a conflict and we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking that we mean more to America than we actually do.

India just cannot afford to leverage its security on the fancy of the American voter or the philosophies of its future Presidents. The Russians at least have demonstrated that they are reliable allies and share our concerns on China's secret military build-up. The Europeans may be on their government mandated holiday but at least they won't make India toe their ideological line as and when it suits them. In reality, it would be hard for India to chose any foreign supplier because at the end of the day, only a nation that builds its own aircraft will be able to rapidly replenish losses in a total war scenario.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby manum » 14 Aug 2010 18:31

In fact, when ever the Democrats/liberals come to power, the Chinese only seem to get stronger and steal more American military secrets than ever before! ....to accommodate the Chinese so that they will rob America blind technologically and economically....

I don't get it...I just don't get the whole logic...you think they are dumb, you have just generalised them as blind, who don't know what is good for them? and they could have stopped progress of huge nation like China in this free world...so they can stop us too as per some chinese...every time Republicans come to power...India gains more power...what is this?

In fact, India is seen more negatively than positively due to its outsourcing industry and is hardly considered a "Western Democracy" that they would feel obliged to support like they did with Western Europe or Israel.

so which country is seen more positively than India...which was not involved with them in world war time...in whatever way? I am not telling we are loved? I am questioning your generalisation of all is here...right here, where you stand...

America is sure as hell not going to do an 1967 Israeli supply drop thing for India in case of a conflict and we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking that we mean more to America than we actually do.

why we need to delude ourselves after wars wid chichi and pukes...which Indian doesn't understand this in era of Indigenous trials...we are not family of USA or Europe...like Israel or maybe Japan is...as they share some realtime history together...
In reality, it would be hard for India to chose any foreign supplier because at the end of the day, only a nation that builds its own aircraft will be able to rapidly replenish losses in a total war scenario.

well for this great conclusion...you did put whole world in Indian court...me lord...I think we all understand this without blaming much to others now...we are not family to anyone...we just need to seek the best deal for us...even if it involves eula...if it is so...

my 3 cents...

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby prabir » 14 Aug 2010 19:49

US is not going to get this deal. MMS is not the only one who decides things. There is Pranab Mukerjee, AK Antony, Sonia Miano etc.
It is going to be a European deal whether with France or EADS. Technology package is what will count. We should not live in a fools paradise about US siding with us in a conflict with China. We are preparing ourselves to deal with a 2 front war and all that we need is technology that allows us to build MCA and LCA.

In case of a war with China, we can get real-time intelligence from Russians as well as Americans. That itself will be sufficient.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby manum » 14 Aug 2010 19:56

yup I am also hoping the same... Europeans should get the deal...except common sense...everything seems to be going against it, till now...

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 14 Aug 2010 20:06

prabir wrote:
In case of a war with China, we can get real-time intelligence from Russians as well as Americans. That itself will be sufficient.

:eek: :eek: is it like the way we received intelligence during 62 war?
US intelligence told not to resort to Air war,because China has got much more fighters than India and it will escalate the war.But the russian intelligence told that more than half of the chinese fleet was grounded due to lack of spares :P

Coocoo might have taken the russian advice into consideration instead of yankees,we should have avoided the humiliation.

Whatever the reasons are,yankees are not at all trustworthy.Better leave their equipment to landing ships and cargo fleet instead of going to high-end stuff that will change the face of the war.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Thomas Kolarek » 14 Aug 2010 20:53

Indian policy makers should plan to use MRCA ToT to build LCA and MCA capabilities. EF & Rafale seems to be the only best investment in such scenario.
As things stand now, for India to fight long war, indigenisation is the only way, that way we can keep our troops better supplied almost indefinitely. If India's weapons and munitions are being imported forever we can never fight longer war with PLA due to smaller inventories of imported , We have a high risk of running out of key munitions if foreign suppliers hesitate to send in replacements. When you prepare to fight a bigger enemy like PLA you should have a bigger stomach. Politics should be kept away from such deals, politicians lasts only for few years, IAF and IA has the responsibility of defending the country forever.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 Aug 2010 21:36

well said. only 100s of Tejas and AMCA will provide us the stick to beat anyone with on a independent basis.
for that radar, missile and engine tech is essential.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 14 Aug 2010 21:51

This just a Google of news stories on the South China Sea situation where Beijing has militarily asserted itself against Vietnam, Philippines, Japan and intimidated Singapore and even Malaysia. Sorry, I don't know how to embed the link.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&clie ... a&gs_rfai=

The MRCA motivation for unkil is not money (though that is of course welcome). Even at 200 a/c (unlikely), it is not a game changer. The USN is likely to order twice that number (paging GeorgeWelch for confirmation) of Super Hornets

The real motivation appears to be to have a strategic relationship with our armed forces. One can argue whether that's a good thing from the Indian POV but that's what seems to drive US SD/Pentagon push to sell arms. They want to rope us in to do a Lakshman Rekha on the PRC.

It would be a no-brainer to say 'no thanks' except for two things: First, India's nightmare scenario is the G2--anyone recall how nervous the PMO/South Block got when the Chinese mentioned it? Second, if you read the news articles, you will get the impression that the PRC want to divide and conquer--negotiating with each small state individually. The PLAN really want to peg India back a notch to demoralize the Vietnamese, Koreans and Japanese and others and take over Taiwan.

Until is not always sleeping. After the market crisis, the PRC upped the ante thinking the US to be weak and reluctant to take on a rising China. Hillary ambushed the Chinese at the ASEAN and CBG and the Ohio Class SSGNs (Tomahawks x 154) suddenly appeared in the hood.

To the extent that US is engaged in containing PRC in the Pacific, its interests converge with India's. The MRCA is probably seen as a gauge of India's acceptance of that convergence. That said CISMOA/LSA make no sense for India.

The ToT stuff is unrealistic. We cannot make everything for any of those a/c. Even with the Europeans, all the US has to do to stop the flow is to make it plain to BAE, MBDA, EADS that they should sell something to country XYZ and they will fall in line. The EU wants to sell arms to China but the US forbids it so they don't. Why could they not scuttle a Rafale/EFT if they were really serious?

I have learned a tremendous amount from the contributors in this forum: Singha, Austin, Kartik, George Welch to mention a few. However, I could not make even a rudimentary case for any one a/c. All I know is that they all cost a bundle and the most valuable component in any of the packages is the insurance policy that makes a war with the PR unlikely.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby jai » 14 Aug 2010 21:54

we are not family to anyone


And its best for us to stay that way. My fear is that MMS and Madam seem hell bent on changing this.

The reality is, Khan does not care for us, it does not care for any of the allies...not anymore now that the Cold war is over. Earlier, the whole purpose of NATO was to stop Soviets from Marching into Europe / other parts of the world where they could have become strong militarily and target US.

In the changed realities, NATO is pretty much a captive market for the Khan Arms industry. In the name of interoperability, you sign agreements, acquire one system after the other from Khan and before long its the camel in the tent story. Then you are under pressure to even commit troops in places like Iraq and Afganistan even if you do not want to - the whole world now knows how many weapons of mass destruction were ever found and why Iraq was attacked.

The changed reality is that who ever has the highest budget defecits with Khan and investments in the US economy and can pay most number of senators in the garb of " Lobbying - through Lobbying firms" controls the Khan's Balls - see the trade defecits of the Chinks and the Saukhans and you will get the picture - these are folks against whom the khan will never move - come what may. The whole notion of Countries partnering on idealogies is long dead, and the sooner we get the idea that "Khan would come to our aid if the chinks attacked us" the better it is for India.

The ball is finally in the court of MMS/Madam and company, and it remains to be seen if they choose to be smarter than Nehru and others in "Kangrass" or will history repeat itself and the same mistakes would be made again.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Henrik » 14 Aug 2010 21:58

Cosmo_R wrote:This just a Google of news stories on the South China Sea situation where Beijing has militarily asserted itself against Vietnam, Philippines, Japan and intimidated Singapore and even Malaysia. Sorry, I don't know how to embed the link.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&clie ... a&gs_rfai=

The MRCA motivation for unkil is not money (though that is of course welcome). Even at 200 a/c (unlikely), it is not a game changer. The USN is likely to order twice that number (paging GeorgeWelch for confirmation) of Super Hornets

The real motivation appears to be to have a strategic relationship with our armed forces. One can argue whether that's a good thing from the Indian POV but that's what seems to drive US SD/Pentagon push to sell arms. They want to rope us in to do a Lakshman Rekha on the PRC.

It would be a no-brainer to say 'no thanks' except for two things: First, India's nightmare scenario is the G2--anyone recall how nervous the PMO/South Block got when the Chinese mentioned it? Second, if you read the news articles, you will get the impression that the PRC want to divide and conquer--negotiating with each small state individually. The PLAN really want to peg India back a notch to demoralize the Vietnamese, Koreans and Japanese and others and take over Taiwan.

Until is not always sleeping. After the market crisis, the PRC upped the ante thinking the US to be weak and reluctant to take on a rising China. Hillary ambushed the Chinese at the ASEAN and CBG and the Ohio Class SSGNs (Tomahawks x 154) suddenly appeared in the hood.

To the extent that US is engaged in containing PRC in the Pacific, its interests converge with India's. The MRCA is probably seen as a gauge of India's acceptance of that convergence. That said CISMOA/LSA make no sense for India.

The ToT stuff is unrealistic. We cannot make everything for any of those a/c. Even with the Europeans, all the US has to do to stop the flow is to make it plain to BAE, MBDA, EADS that they should sell something to country XYZ and they will fall in line. The EU wants to sell arms to China but the US forbids it so they don't. Why could they not scuttle a Rafale/EFT if they were really serious?

I have learned a tremendous amount from the contributors in this forum: Singha, Austin, Kartik, George Welch to mention a few. However, I could not make even a rudimentary case for any one a/c. All I know is that they all cost a bundle and the most valuable component in any of the packages is the insurance policy that makes a war with the PR unlikely.

It's not the EU that wants to sell military technology to China, it's France.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Thomas Kolarek » 14 Aug 2010 22:34

Henrik wrote:It's not the EU that wants to sell military technology to China, it's France.


Then claim an insurance from France before signing Rafale for MRCA to not supply to India's rivals. France should be able to sign it, when they think about future businesses they will get from other countries once MRCA choses Rafale.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 14 Aug 2010 22:50

Henrik:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/c ... 419780.htm

The Chinese are pressing the EU very hard on arms sales.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Brando » 14 Aug 2010 23:04

manum wrote:I don't get it...I just don't get the whole logic...you think they are dumb, you have just generalised them as blind, who don't know what is good for them? and they could have stopped progress of huge nation like China in this free world...so they can stop us too as per some chinese...every time Republicans come to power...India gains more power...what is this?

This is nonsense.
You don't get the logic because you can't understand my language. Everybody in America knows that the Chinese are artificially keeping their currency down to exploit the price difference, thereby making American products costly and Chinese products cheaper! This realization hasn't made them do anything but talk to the Chinese and issue a few sermons about the currency markets. It's not about stopping the progress of anybody, its about maintaining a level playing field. They are two different things. A prosperous China is not a bad thing necessarily, while a China that is prospering at the expense of somebody else is!
manum wrote:so which country is seen more positively than India...which was not involved with them in world war time...in whatever way? I am not telling we are loved? I am questioning your generalisation of all is here...right here, where you stand...

Israel ? South Korea ? Brazil ?
I am NOT generalizing, I am being quite specific. The common delusion that America is desperately trying to woo India is at best ignorant. There are many other nations that are closer to the United States that they would consider true "allies".
manum wrote:why we need to delude ourselves after wars wid chichi and pukes...which Indian doesn't understand this in era of Indigenous trials...we are not family of USA or Europe...like Israel or maybe Japan is...as they share some realtime history together...

Are you sure this is English ? Because I sure can't understand a word of the above statement enough to respond.
manum wrote:well for this great conclusion...you did put whole world in Indian court...me lord...I think we all understand this without blaming much to others now...we are not family to anyone...we just need to seek the best deal for us...even if it involves eula...if it is so...

Again, you haven't understood anything that I've said in my response to another poster.
Whole world in India's court ?? Where did I ever say that! ?
My point being that, if China is the main rival long term, as the other poster contended, then the choice of aircraft in the MRCA hardly provides the strategic depth required to counter the Chinese airforce. Only a domestically produced aircraft could do that for India.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Suresh S » 14 Aug 2010 23:30

agree with brando
Last edited by Suresh S on 14 Aug 2010 23:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Suresh S » 14 Aug 2010 23:30

Unlike the Cold War where the US has great presidents like Regan, Bush 1 etc, the current crop of US Presidents are either maniacs or pansies. Further, unlike Western Europe, the American citizenry by and large have NO real ties with India. In fact, India is seen more negatively than positively due to its outsourcing industry and is hardly considered a "Western Democracy" that they would feel obliged to support like they did with Western Europe or Israel. Also, unlike the Cold War, the Chinese have the American over the barrel debt wise and the American Federal Reserve is not in any mood to unshackle themselves from the Chinese and roll the dice on the American economy. America is sure as hell not going to do an 1967 Israeli supply drop thing for India in case of a conflict and we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking that we mean more to America than we actually do.

India just cannot afford to leverage its security on the fancy of the American voter or the philosophies of its future Presidents. The Russians at least have demonstrated that they are reliable allies and share our concerns on China's secret military build-up. The Europeans may be on their government mandated holiday but at least they won't make India toe their ideological line as and when it suits them. In reality, it would be hard for India to chose any foreign supplier because at the end of the day, only a nation that builds its own aircraft will be able to rapidly replenish losses in a total war scenario.



I agree with brando on this statement

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby manum » 14 Aug 2010 23:56

This is nonsense.
You don't get the logic because you can't understand my language. ...... A prosperous China is not a bad thing necessarily, while a China that is prospering at the expense of somebody else is!


all i can see you are putting your hands in unknown waters, Whether or not Chichi currency practices hurt the USA is a subject of another debate among us...Even if you are convinced that the undervalued chichi currency has been harmful....I will contend that neither U.S. actions nor any ensuing Chichi reforms are likely to reduce U.S. unemployment significantly....The potential short-term benefits to the USA of quicker Chichi action are distinctly limited... I can take this farward, as per my common sense, but I still think, its useless to discuss complex economics...and conclude...

so all the tempering was done by china when democrats were in power...did you try to say that in above post....or I misunderstood that...and rest added in your second was (silent) etching...

Israel are you sure was not involved in world in form of jews??? south correa, brazil???so you want India to be declared most favoured nation in USA list...why, what did we do so great??? didnt i say we are not family to anyone...we cannot be true allies to a world power, when we are being project as probable candidate of the same...can we?

I had been speaking English, for a while, you need more brain cells...most of your content required second coming...(its English isn't it)

you don't need to say "we are hearing pleas of whole world in Indian great courts, why we are not their best allies"

I just said we don't need to be best of allies, bit businesslike attitude would do....

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Henrik » 15 Aug 2010 00:05

Cosmo_R wrote:Henrik:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/c ... 419780.htm

The Chinese are pressing the EU very hard on arms sales.

I don't think you understand. China is pressing the EU yes, but the ones pushing for sales to China within the EU are the French, though they haven't raised the issue for some time now since it wasn't favoured well with the rest of us.

France will hardly sell to China by themselves because it would cause an uproar within the EU and NATO. China knows this and therefore they also know they'll get nowhere just pushing the French. Remember the Mistral sales to Russia? The EU and NATO are far from happy about it, and Russia is even a next-door neighbour who shares a lot of history and have other close ties with Europe. China doesn't.

Imagine the reaction if they sold Mistrals to China... The US would go ape because of Taiwan and other power-balance issues, it wouldn't go down well with Japan either. The EU would go nuts as well and the US would put tremendous pressure on Europe to put a stop to it.

So China and France needs the backing of the whole of EU for it to be possible. And then I haven't factored in issues like reverse-engineering..

Brando
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Brando » 15 Aug 2010 00:20

manum wrote:all i can see you are putting your hands in unknown waters, Whether or not Chichi currency practices hurt the USA is a subject of another debate among us...Even if you are convinced that the undervalued chichi currency has been harmful....I will contend that neither U.S. actions nor any ensuing Chichi reforms are likely to reduce U.S. unemployment significantly....The potential short-term benefits to the USA of quicker Chichi action are distinctly limited... I can take this farward, as per my common sense, but I still think, its useless to discuss complex economics...and conclude...

Again, you are going off on a tangent. My point was about whether the US would support India in a confrontation with China given the Chinese influence on the US economy. The fact is, the Chinese have maneuvered themselves into an economic advantage and an obscene trade advantage. You apparently don't understand that a resemblance of the trade balance between China and the US would significantly boost domestic US manufacturing and in the long run revitalize the US economy completely. How can you say that it won't reduce US unemployment, when neither China nor the US have taken any concrete steps to bringing just the currency issue anywhere close to normal.
manum wrote:so all the tempering was done by china when democrats were in power...did you try to say that in above post....or I misunderstood that...and rest added in your second was (silent) etching...

You misunderstood. I was saying that Democratic administrations have shown that they are willing to maintain much more warmer relations with china. During Clintons time, the Chinese stole a LOT of US classified information that his administration was lax to respond to. Even Obama is showing the same tendency to placate Beijing by not calling them out openly for their massive espionage activities in America.

manum wrote:Israel are you sure was not involved in world in form of jews??? south correa, brazil???so you want India to be declared most favoured nation in USA list...why, what did we do so great??? didnt i say we are not family to anyone...we cannot be true allies to a world power, when we are being project as probable candidate of the same...can we?

Again you have missed the mark by MILES!
As for Israel and Jews, do you want me to show you aliens from other planets then ? Even India took part in the world war? Your statement is ridiculous!
No, I don't want India to be the most favored nation to the US. If you actually take the time to read my original post, anybody with even a cursory understanding of the English language would quickly discern that I was making a hypothetical case where if the US fighters were chosen in the MRCA and India were at war, the US would not necessarily expedite spares and replacements with the same urgency as it did with Israel in its wars.
I understood what you meant about "family to anyone" but you haven't understood my point or my original post.

manum wrote:I had been speaking English, for a while, you need more brain cells...most of your content required second coming...(its English isn't it)

If that was English to you, then we definitely are using two different languages!
manum wrote:you don't need to say "we are hearing pleas of whole world in Indian great courts, why we are not their best allies"

I just said we don't need to be best of allies, bit businesslike attitude would do....

Again, where did you read that imaginary statement that you quoted ? I certainly have never said anything of the sort!


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