MRCA News and Discussion

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paramyog
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby paramyog » 17 Aug 2010 19:26

Russians don't give arms to Pak....

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nrshah » 17 Aug 2010 19:32

paramyog wrote:Its not a bad idea to participate in the JSF program knowing that the PAK FGFA can meet the same fate as Gorshkov/विक्रमादित्य and the Sukhois have met.

Time we actively engaged EADS and Dassault for making EU our partner in the new world order. Even for the Chopper deal, lets not chase the Russian birds, we've seen how good Kamovs are when compared to Eurocopter or Apache. Unfortunately while the Chinese raise border tensions by deploying Missile batteries, there is little in terms of our ability to defend and intercepts threats in our air space that we can mitigate seeing the present state of affairs.


As i mentioned, We tend to forget others...How about recalling Scorpene deal??

paramyog wrote:knowing that MiGs stand no chance in actual air combat situation.

Dont know how Mig 21, two and half gen behind Mig 29 / 35, made F 15 of USAF dance to their tunes?

paramyog wrote:The last thing we want is, PLAF bombing the parliament while the Sukhois become too few in numbers to shield against the Chinese onslaught.


Why will Sukhois become scarce? Care to explain?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nrshah » 17 Aug 2010 19:33

paramyog wrote:Russians don't give arms to Pak....


Oh, Thank you for that.. But i was proactive to claims like engines for JF 17...

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 17 Aug 2010 19:39

and midas and mi17...

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nrshah » 17 Aug 2010 19:57

Sir, Midas were from Ukraine not Russia....
Again we are back to 1... russian sold Mi 17 Transport helicopter is very sternly mentioned without any reference to freebies from US...

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby yantra » 17 Aug 2010 19:58

nrshah wrote:
There is some mis reporting... For eg... F 35 priced at 100 Mn USD... I mean is it even available... The writer has quoted as if it is available over phone.. Besides, F 35 dont supercruise??

What made Suman think that 42 planes will come without AESA and all? Especially when report itself mentions deep upgrade with AESA radar, Does not it sound logical to her that new 42 will also come with AESA and all... Also, no official report has come out with mentioning specs for newly contracted 42 aircrafts...

This cannot be compared to Vikramaditya... There cost was raised after agreement... This is not the case here... We have a quote... Depends upon us whether to buy... No body is pushing in our throat....

Not to justify the escalation, but why our reporters dont raise hue and cry when other nations escalate cost? Why they never complained about cost of of M2k upgradation being more than twice of Mig 29 even though it is not as comprehensive? Why dont they raise the issue of price of Helicopters for VVIP, C 10 (582MN USD) when 50 Mns USD plannes are available and Ruslon re start of assembly in pipeline while we dont have as much emergency in logistic planes?

Besides, cost escalation has to be viewed in different prospective...

Till now, we were purchasing all the equipments from SU/RU and the rates where very competitive (sorry low). Now we buys goods from all over the world at the rates that are mind boggling... Now if we are ok to buy tiffy or SH which dont offer any advantage over MKi, why should RU still sell at 50 Mn usd? We are thinking from our angle only...

If you have a friend whom you lend some money in times of need, free of interest.. (U r Money lender) It is ok... but when he consistently takes loans from others also and pay Interest say 24 - 36%, what will you do? Will you continue to give him loan free when he is paying interest to whole world? This is not friendship to me.....

We are free to do whatever, but russians they should be always be good to us... Don't give arms to pak and China, offer us 40 Mn USD plane (when we are ready to pay 100 mn for western plane offering same or even substandard capability)...

.....


Could it be that a lot of tech transfer (ex, small nuke reactor for Arihant) and consulting is being pushed under this head( and price increases on Gorshkov) with the tacit approval of GoI?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nrshah » 17 Aug 2010 20:06

yantra wrote:
Could it be that a lot of tech transfer (ex, small nuke reactor for Arihant) and consulting is being pushed under this head( and price increases on Gorshkov) with the tacit approval of GoI?


Ya, A lot of reports (even from Ex CNS overlooking for Arihant) mentioned of money paid for Russian Consultancy... But so far we have not had a single report of any amount paid to Russians for the same... Even the CAG has not reported any thing....I dont know who the amount is paid?? Any guesses???

For Vik, we can argue we dont have any option but to approve the escalation, but for MKI, why CCS and MOD is approving them with the cost escalation (if it actually is) especially when we have lot of options.. EU / US are in fray to sell us their best planes....If squadron number is the reason and we feel MKi is very costly at these price considering capabilities it offer, we can resort to french offer of 40 rafale......

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Christopher Sidor » 17 Aug 2010 20:42

paramyog wrote:Gripen NG is LCA itself. It does not fulfill the role of an MMRCA to be really frank.


That is the beauty of it. Let us say that we have decided to spend Rs x on a fighter, after acquisition for its maintenance and upkeep. For this limited amount we can either service 125 typhoon or rafael fighters. But for the same amount we would be able to service 125+ Gripen NG fighters. In other words, we will be able to save a substantial amount, in maintenance, upkeep and infrastructure costs. This saved money can be used to buy more fighters or better missiles or enhancing our indigenous aircraft weapon systems. Where as Rafael and Typhoon, we will have to spend a substantial amount for creating the infrastructure. Do not forget that these are brand new fighters, which do not have any commonality with any existing fighter in IAF fleet. Grippen NG has one ability, which is there only with FA-18. Ability to take off and land from short runways. This is crucial in time of war, when runways get damaged and in our northeast and north western frontiers.

And if milked properly, this fighter Grippen NG will enable us to get more goodies.

I have not considered FA-18/F-16/Mig-35 due to obvious reasons.

I am at a loss to say why does not Grippen NG meet MMRCA role ? Do you have the IAF technical evaluation report? Or have you seen it ?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 17 Aug 2010 22:03

Singha wrote:I dont think it was a MKI -vs- M2k contest ever. after IAF purchased MKI they still wanted a non-tender purchase of MRCA around kargil (i.e. 10 yrs ago). M2K option to make 150 more was given up in favour of Mig29A and Mig29S - maybe
you confused with that and a period of low uptime of the Mig29 holdings.


Singha, the original deal for the MKI was basically a competition between the Mirage-2000-5 and the Su-30 and the main reason stated for the Su-30 being chosen was stated as being the cost difference. Read that in some Parliamentary report that dates back to the late 1990s.


> One of the alleged issues which has been reported for SU-30MKI, is that if the engine develops a fault
> or has to be repaired,

where did you pick this up? no doubt some components are sourced from saturn and some from hal koraput, but
this isnt the a low volume Mi26 or bear to be shipped all the way back. I am sure its a false rumour.
likewise some comps of the bars radar will never be made here and NIIP will supply spares as needed.


USAF Col. Fornhoff’s misinformation swallowed hook line and sinker..simple.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Avid » 17 Aug 2010 22:47

Lot of misinformation and misinterpretation --

a) The recent 40+2 deal is priced for delivery at "end" (2012 to 2015) of current order and not subject to price-escalation.

b) The 40+2 deal is for specs with upgrades to carry BrahMos and Nirbhay (i.e. airborne nuclear missile strike role).

Not all SU-30 MKI orders are to the same specs:
1996 order of 50
2000 order of 140
2002 decision to accelerate production and complete delivery of 190 by 2014 (instead of 2017)
2004 additional order of 40 with completion of 230 delivery by 2015
2010 additional order of 42 with completion of 270 delivery by 2018 (some indicate 2016)

There has been a very strong assumption made by many that the 2004 and 2010 orders have been speced at first 190. Even the first 190 are not speced the same as the first set of MKI.

Key changes from MKI have been -- delivery of BrahMos (it is no minor upgrade/change), delivery of Nirbhay, and according to some delivery of guided nuclear munition. Besides, no information about the 2004 and 2007 orders have been released regarding their tech specs. So, you can with equal ease claim AESA or PESA. However, considering IAF has experienced the AESA on the Mig for MRCA, and is insisting on AESA -- difficult to see why it would not insist on the same for the 2010 order of MKI. What about the engine? By all accounts the FGFA would be in final stages. According to 2009 news, India was discussing upgrades to the MKI already delivered - i.e. engine and radar upgrades. What's to say that these are not included in the 2010 order.

By the way, besides being a paper tiger for now F-35 is not in range/load/strike class as SU-30MKI. Also, moot point since you will not get delivery of F-35 before 2018. Closest in market would be latest F-15 variants which will cost you upwards of $110-120 million.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Avid » 17 Aug 2010 23:57

paramyog wrote:Avid
...take a look...

Now comes the costing part:
F/A-18 already sources a few composite material from HAL. Come to think of it when we start to manufacture Tiffs for not just IAF but also RAF, Luftwaffe, Italy & Hispania, the cost of production will reduce.
The present valuation of $ 100 million per piece is already come down 25 % post Euro devaluation.
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... er/397737/

As the volume of production increases, the cost per unit will decline. We already have labour costs much lesser compared to EU. Boeing sees that and taken a lead, even though its a marginally smaller component.

:lol: :lol:


May want to consider choosing the spin doctor profession. Throw little bit of facts that seemingly compare, but in reality do not.

Let me try a bulleted response (since you like the bullet)

* Sourcing composites from HAL does not equal no cost reduction by production in India

* Labor cost savings -- what percentage of aircraft cost is labor? Cost savings through assembly of SKD vs. TKD is not same. Also, we are manufacturing core components or assembling them?

* My point was about cost of production line (not merely an assembly line of SKD aircraft). The depreciation of specialized assets acquired merely for production of 126 MRCA may not be economically viable. Typically, assets acquired for "production" are later utilized for maintenance. However, not all production assets can be translated into utilization for maintenance. So, you go figure how much production and what depth of production vs. assembly is truly economically viable when we are purchasing only 126.

* The decline in Euro of 25% -- make it sound like we will be purchasing in fixed conversion rates that will be determined by the lowest. A little more on international trade would go to show you that the risk posed by negotiating price in EUR will actually make the deal far more financially risky than USD.

Here's basic numbers for you (EUR and USD min/max for year) --
2001 [40.1/43.7] [46.6/48]
2002 [42.4/49.1] [48.1/49]
2003 [50.9/56.0] [47.8/45.4]
2004 [52.6/58.8] [43.9/46.3]
2005 [52.3/57.5] [43.4/45.6]
2006 [52.8/59.5] [44.2/46.4]
2007 [54.5/58.0] [39.4/44.2]
2008 [57.8/67.3] [39.3/48.6]
2009 [62.9/70.4] [46.6/51.2]
2010 [56.9/65.5] (current 60.6) [44.5/46.8] (current 46.4)

Anything purchased with pricing in Euros in 2001@ min annual conversion rate -- you would be paying 42% higher even when considering the minimum thus far this year.

At avg exchange rates (EUR to RS) for the year, you would be paying roughly 50% higher

This is not accounting for cost escalation due to inflation (typically about 3-4% per year, and compounded this would add another 40-50% escalation).

Typically, cost escalation clause in something as complex as aircraft are a formula index that is weighted and tied to inflation for baskets of raw materials to which the cost might be most influenced by, and economic inflation.

Compare that to USD -- you would have been paying less if you negotiated minimum of the year as the payment term, and even at average of the year you would have paid 7% less and for economic inflation somewhat lower than EU.

translated simply, you could have bought 50% more aircraft for rates negotiated in USD vs. 0% more for rates negotiated in EUR. Also, the cost would ripple through in maintenance, munitions, etc.

If you want to compute your financial exposure beyond just now vs. then -- feel free to do so year on year, and within the year. Quoting 25% reduction in EUR since MRCA started is not only an economically insufficient argument, it is misleading completely.

How do you come to the conclusion that Germany will let you produce the a/c for their AF? Please read the complexity of negotiations within the EF countries on how much they want the production to be within their own countries. Germany is by far the most protectionist economy (it is how they were the single largest exporter in the world and now the second largest). Lip service is not to be believed when it comes to EF.

Including India into the consortium, that is a pipedream designed to stroke your ego :-)
Last edited by Avid on 18 Aug 2010 00:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby JTull » 17 Aug 2010 23:58

Interesting headline news in Monday's FT in UK
US warns Turkey on Iran and Israel
President Barack Obama has personally warned Turkey’s prime minister that unless Ankara shifts its position on Israel and Iran it stands little chance of obtaining the US weapons it wants to buy.

Mr Obama’s warning to Recep Tayyip Erdogan is particularly significant as Ankara wants to buy American drone aircraft – such as the missile-bearing Reaper – to attack the Kurdish separatist PKK after the US military pulls out of Iraq at the end of 2011.

The PKK has traditionally maintained bases in the remote mountains in the north of Iraq, near the Turkish border.

One senior administration official said: “The president has said to Erdogan that some of the actions that Turkey has taken have caused questions to be raised on the Hill [Congress] . . . about whether we can have confidence in Turkey as an ally. That means that some of the requests Turkey has made of us, for example in providing some of the weaponry that it would like to fight the PKK, will be harder for us to move through Congress.”

Washington was deeply frustrated when Turkey voted against United Nations sanctions on Iran in June.

When the leaders met later that month at the G20 summit in Toronto, Mr Obama told Mr Erdogan that the Turks had failed to act as an ally in the UN vote. He also called on Ankara to cool its rhetoric about an Israeli raid that killed nine Turks on a flotilla bearing aid for Gaza.

While the two men have subsequently sought to co-operate over Iraq’s efforts to patch together a coalition government, the US makes clear its warning still stands.

“They need to show that they take seriously American national security interests,” said the administration official, adding that Washington was looking at Turkish conduct and would then assess if there were “sufficient efforts that we can go forward with their request”.

US law requires the administration to notify Congress 15 days ahead of big arms sales to Nato allies such as Turkey. Although technically such sales can proceed – unless Congress passes legislation to stop them – resistance on Capitol Hill can push administrations to abandon politically unpopular sales.

Turkey has sought drones for several years. But its drive has taken on greater urgency both because of the continuing US withdrawal from Iraq and the tensions with Israel, which has provided Ankara with pilotless Heron aircraft.

Turkish officials characterise the military relationship with the US as very good but declined to comment on specific procurement requests. The administration has not notified Congress of any big arms sale to Turkey to date this year.


Tells you what is in store for India if they keep flirting with the F-teens!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Avid » 18 Aug 2010 00:48

Ajatshatru wrote:nrshah wrote:
(ii) Is this also then a tacit admission that Russia is no more a 'special friend' of India and India's dealing with Russia now should be like India's commercial dealing with any other country?


For quite some time I have been pointing steadily to a bad contract design for the original MKI. Russia had historically negotiated contracts in bilateral currency without inflation etc. The contract in 1996 and in 2000 followed a similar trend.

Data For Russian Economy
Year Inflation rate (%)
2000 86
2001 20.6
2002 16.2
2003 15
2004 13.7
2005 11.5
2006 12.7
2007 9.8
2008 9
2009 14.1

The average inflation rate:
* 2000-2009 is 20.86% per year vs. 2.72% for USA vs. 5.51% for India

(excluding the hyperinflation in 2000)
* 2001-2009 is 13.62% per year vs. 2.78% for USA vs. 5.38% for India

Applying standard formula what cost $1 at beginning of 2001, takes:
- $3.14 today in Russia, $1.28 in USA, $1.60 in India

From beginning of 2000, then it would be
$5.84 in Russia vs. $1.31 in USA vs. $1.71 in India


Any reasonable experienced negotiator would not have left themselves so wide open to inflation risk. I concur we should not be fleeced, and we should not allow them to walk all over us. However, reasonable business practice (and long term partnership) demands that we renegotiate in good faith.

In 2009, are we paying 314% the cost we agreed to in 2000? No!
People are whining about 275% for significantly upgraded specs that require additional R&D and delivery in 2015!

We are not even paying 170% of what we agreed to in 2000 (is how much it would go up if we made it all within India).

In fact, the contract was negotiated in USD, and so we are paying 7% less today in Rs. than we did in 2001. Not to mention that in 2007/2008 it was costing us 15% less in Rs. than in 2001, whereas priced in Euros it would have cost us 35% more then.

If it had been negotiated in Euro, today it would have cost us 50% more in Rs. and 35% more in Rs. in 2008 when the contract was renegotiated.

For Vikramaditya -- negotiated in 2004 for upgrade and refit, a typical contract would include cost escalation tied to inflation (labor and materials) and renegotiations clause because of uncertainty in the job itself. Even if we consider only labor cost and inflation adjustment it would bring it up by 100% (not to mention the cost increase because of project uncertainties).

Are we really being fleeced? or Being unnecessarily sensitive to idea of being fleeced?

If we had contracted with pricing in Euros, and agreed to a reasonable inflation adjustment of even 3% (though India has seen twice as much on average), the cost today would have been 200% of that in 2001, and at the peak of Euro we would have paid 230%.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Deepak_D » 18 Aug 2010 01:31

Uttara Computers in Bangalore Gives training to lot of people in Unix and System Programming. Some people score more ideas some people dont.

Infosys can ask Uttara Computers to train their 126 employee at cheaper cost say 10k and ask their employees to get most out of this training activity.
At the same time Infosys CANNOT ask Uttara Computers not to give the same training to employees of Wipro or Mphasis ?
Wipro/MPhasis if it decides can also get trained in Uttara why not ??? Its left to employees of Infosys/Wipro/MPhasis to acquire what they desire and whats best for them. isn't ??

In the same anology I don't understand why are people in this thread fighting over the what US gave to FAK or what RUSSIA gave to CHINX or what FRANCE GAVE TO FAK, why FAK pilots get to use UAE teens ? US might not give parts later etc etc.

Isin't wise idea to be smart employee and employer; grasp as much as needed and much more during your training in Uttara Computers and forget what Wipro employees are going to learn from Uttara Computers. Incase Infosys Employees need something important while Wipro employees are getting trained in Uttara Computers and Uttara Computers will not allow any transaction or information exchange while training other organisations, I will open my pendora box of knowledge that I stored earlier (during my training) rather than beg or ask Uttara Computers again. That saves my money :)

When there was no MMRCA Indian folks made Tejas, I believe atleast they will build cheaper F22/F35 when they get MMRCA.
Well that was analogy, I know many would differ but thats my perspective of this barter.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 18 Aug 2010 03:41

Shiv Aroor reports..

Mig-35 OUT of competition.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/08/bi ... umour.html

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 18 Aug 2010 04:10

:(( another RUMOR!!!! unless there is an official press release suggesting otherwise, this is just a ONE BIG CIRCUS!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 18 Aug 2010 04:46

Wasn't it Aroor himself who posted it on his blog that IAF had given no ranking, recommendation or downselect in the report?
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/08/big-fat-mmrca-update.html
Well, here's some stuff that's confirmed true, authoritative, new, and potentially explosive for contenders in the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition.

In other words, the trial report has all the data and results, but no recommendations, no merit list, no explicit downselect, no stated eliminations, nothing.

Well, Aroor does know how to bring more visitors to his blog. :roll: I at least hope that he possesses some imagination and writes that the downselect is from MOD and not from IAF. Aroor sure seems to have taken special black ops spy training from our dear mohterma. Only that could explain how both of them can get their hands on highly classified info which will greatly influence our National Security.
I am not a MIG-35 fanboy( I am more of a Rafale/Gripen man) but I sure do not appreciate endless stream of "rumours". Report when you have something credible to say, else shut up! Aroor seems to have taken more than a leaf from mohterma's book. Like her, he too posts a sensationalizing headline and promises more details afterwords. Then, like her, he laughs at the numerous idiots who wait breathlessly for the update and all they get is some crap he dishes out from his musharraf.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 18 Aug 2010 05:09

Good post Gaur..he contradicts himself and his own "confirmed" reports. if the MoD has actually gone ahead and removed MiG-35 from the competition then well and good, but otherwise this whole rumour mongering is getting a little tiring frankly. It sparks off 3 pages of rants and raves and 2 days later we'll hear another rumour that the MiG-35 is in and the Gripen is out and the discussions start off again completely oblivious to the source of the rumours.

But he sure does love his sensationalist and breathless style of posting. As far as the mohterma is concerned, she is symptomatic of what ails Indian defence journalism- lack of subject knowledge. She once had a caption for a Surya Kiran "afterburner on" pointing to the colourful gas emerging from its derrierre..I had to point out to her that the Kiran doesn't even have an after burner. The same level of knowledge permeates all her posts and Shiv Aroor is only slightly better.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Surya » 18 Aug 2010 05:14

Well, Aroor does know how to bring more visitors to his blog. I at least hope that he possesses some imagination and writes that the downselect is from MOD and not from IAF. Aroor sure seems to have taken special black ops spy training from our dear mohterma. Only that could explain how both of them can get their hands on highly classified info which will greatly influence our National Security.
I am not a MIG-35 fanboy( I am more of a Rafale/Gripen man) but I sure do not appreciate endless stream of "rumours". Report when you have something credible to say, else shut up! Aroor seems to have taken more than a leaf from mohterma's book. Like her, he too posts a sensationalizing headline and promises more details afterwords. Then, like her, he laughs at the numerous idiots who wait breathlessly for the update and all they get is some crap he dishes out from his musharraf
.

well said

Its no wonder the motorhama and aroor hate each other since they are the same :)

deperate attempts to create an issue where non exists - witness his latest rubbish about Dutt's letter.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Katare » 18 Aug 2010 05:41

Guys first look and then complain......

This is what he has reported

"MMRCA RUMOUR: MiG-35 Out, Details Tomorrow"

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Surya » 18 Aug 2010 05:51

oh what a surprise - another rumour

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby sumshyam » 18 Aug 2010 06:13

Out of curiosity, can all/some of the 643 test points used to evaluate MMRCA be listed..?

please try to be precise don't beat around the bush..!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby prastor » 18 Aug 2010 08:11

To Aroor's benefit, he did point it out that it is just a rumour. Don't be so hard on him. It is a free blog. It is not like you are paying to read the junk.

I was reading about the MMRCA on a Swedish Gripen forum and most of the posters were very optimistic about Gripen IN winning the deal on the basis of common platform with Tejas for engine/Radar/avionics/EWC/weapons. Some arguments were pretty convincing.

We have resorted to this competition only because Tejas got delayed right? So, why not fill the gaps with Gripen IN (which is pretty much a Tejas) while Tejas Mk2 is developed? Why get carried away from our original requirements and spend so much on other planes? Needing is different from Wanting.

Personally, I WANT to see EF Typhoon in IAF colours. But, I feel we actually only NEED a Gripen IN in those colours to work as a stop gap before Tejas Mk2 starts rolling out.

But again, some times our wants overtake our needs, for better or for worse.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Suresh S » 18 Aug 2010 08:24

[

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Suresh S » 18 Aug 2010 08:30

[quote="prastor
Post subject: Re: MRCA News and Discussion



Personally, I WANT to see EF Typhoon in IAF colours. But, I feel we actually only NEED a Gripen IN in those colours to work as a stop gap before Tejas Mk2 starts rolling out.

But again, some times our wants overtake our needs, for better or for worse.
[/quote]


I lke that comment prastor

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 18 Aug 2010 08:35

prastor wrote:We have resorted to this competition only because Tejas got delayed right? So, why not fill the gaps with Gripen IN (which is pretty much a Tejas) while Tejas Mk2 is developed?
Prastor, Tejas is delayed, not dead!

Well, the day the report came out that India would buy extra Sukhois if the MiG-35 didn't make the cut - the writing was on the wall for the MiG. MiG-35's ouster was the most expected ouster I'd say. Gripen's next.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 18 Aug 2010 09:56

I killed a chicken yesterday and looked at its entrails....

the visions predict it will be EF + GripenNG - both from EU stable - in a 40:60 split. this will be a move to reduce cost, get more airframes than a pure ef/f18 deal and get the best benefits in terms of technology (incl for the tejas and crucial radar, smart weapon and engine programs) while minimizing threats of sanctions. and the beauty is both run with a common set of qualified bideshi weapons and are based on open stds, making integration of stuff like astra, sudarshan, nirbhay-A possible. the swedish TIDLS datalink / EF link16? can be replaced with our own fleet wide datalink module.

I look forward to the first Gripen-NG squadron to be based out of Borjhar-AFB and 2nd squadron in bagdogra-AFB, replacing the Bisons.

with the combined talents of BAE and EADS and their ecosystem to draw upon, all our domestic progs will get a boost if cards are dealt right
and skilled negotiators run the contract talks.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Christopher Sidor » 18 Aug 2010 10:06

prastor wrote:To Aroor's benefit, he did point it out that it is just a rumour. Don't be so hard on him. It is a free blog. It is not like you are paying to read the junk.

I was reading about the MMRCA on a Swedish Gripen forum and most of the posters were very optimistic about Gripen IN winning the deal on the basis of common platform with Tejas for engine/Radar/avionics/EWC/weapons. Some arguments were pretty convincing.

We have resorted to this competition only because Tejas got delayed right? So, why not fill the gaps with Gripen IN (which is pretty much a Tejas) while Tejas Mk2 is developed? Why get carried away from our original requirements and spend so much on other planes? Needing is different from Wanting.

Personally, I WANT to see EF Typhoon in IAF colours. But, I feel we actually only NEED a Gripen IN in those colours to work as a stop gap before Tejas Mk2 starts rolling out.

But again, some times our wants overtake our needs, for better or for worse.

The commonality is one of the most prominent advantages of Grippen. Its running cost is going to be the lowest among all the fighters in the competition. Further its unique advantage being, it has been designed from day one with the ability to take off and land from short runways or runways which have been damaged. Also, we can prevail upon Sweden to sign a pact, which will bar Grippen from Pakistan or China or Pakistan's allies in Middle East. This way we will have a fighter which our enemy cannot lay our hands on. Finally, if and when Kaveri generates the required amount of thrust, we can replace the engine of Grippen with Kaveri.

With Typhoon, there is one ace up its sleeve. EJ2000. The engine which propels the fighter. This is another gas turbine based engine. Grippen is powered by an American Engine. Knowing the history of Indo-US relationships, this is one thing we should be extremely wary of. EJ2000 is a variant of a gas turbine engine which Rolls Royce built. With UK eagerly to have a "special relationship" with us, we can work out something to our benefit. Typhoon will be an expensive proposition. Comparable to Rafael. But Typhoon is already in service with Saudi Arabian Airforce. This means that Pakis and eventually the chinese will be able to lay hands on this fighter. Similarly UAE has ordered some pretty advanced Rafael fighters. This also will be accessible by the Pakis and the chinks.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby prastor » 18 Aug 2010 10:23

Dmurphy wrote:
prastor wrote:We have resorted to this competition only because Tejas got delayed right? So, why not fill the gaps with Gripen IN (which is pretty much a Tejas) while Tejas Mk2 is developed?
Prastor, Tejas is delayed, not dead!

Well, the day the report came out that India would buy extra Sukhois if the MiG-35 didn't make the cut - the writing was on the wall for the MiG. MiG-35's ouster was the most expected ouster I'd say. Gripen's next.


:) Dmurphy, I know Tejas is not dead. I never claimed that. I just said the whole need for MMRCA was due to the delay in it's IOC. MMRCA was meant to be a stop-gap measure to avoid a major depletion in IAF squadrons. We are already at a critical level. That is why, I said we just need nothing more than the Gripen IN (as our cheapest and most practical option) to fill-in for Tejas while the Mk2 is developed (all because IAF is adamant about accepting more Mk1s, which again makes sense too from their POV).

Gripen is next? Well, that is what the whole point of my post was! Will our WANTS overshadow our NEEDS? If yes, then I guess you will be right in saying Gripen is next in line for the axe. :-?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 18 Aug 2010 10:35

prastor wrote:Gripen is next? Well, that is what the whole point of my post was! Will our WANTS overshadow our NEEDS? If yes, then I guess you will be right in saying Gripen is next in line for the axe.
Huh. Don't try to pass off your opinions as facts please.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 18 Aug 2010 10:47

Singha wrote:I killed a chicken yesterday and looked at its entrails....


Was it a Broiler or Desi? :D

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 18 Aug 2010 10:52

Christopher Sidor wrote:But Typhoon is already in service with Saudi Arabian Airforce. This means that Pakis and eventually the chinese will be able to lay hands on this fighter. Similarly UAE has ordered some pretty advanced Rafael fighters. This also will be accessible by the Pakis and the chinks.


Mirages are also there with arabs, still we went for the upgrade with RDY2 Radar for which arabs get money as they paid for its development. I don't think India will care about it, same way as indonesians got su 30s and still india keeps on adding more.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 18 Aug 2010 10:55

other than f22 & tejas , nothing is 'safe' from the sinopak combo knowing its performance details because in a few yrs uae/qatar/saudis would likely order jsf :)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Christopher Sidor » 18 Aug 2010 11:03

Singha wrote:other than f22 & tejas , nothing is 'safe' from the sinopak combo knowing its performance details because in a few yrs uae/qatar/saudis would likely order jsf :)

IMHO Grippen can be denied to both Chinks and Pakis. It is not in service anywhere in middle east or countries which might give the chinks and pakis access to it. That is provided we play our cards right.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 18 Aug 2010 11:11

but what exactly does gripen have thats so precious? the key things like radar , datalinks, ew would be similar to ef/rafale which are with arabs. its not a one-off b2 type design which the panda could 'learn' from.

I think this issue is overrated and we should buy what we need rather than base it on 'denying' things to others.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby prastor » 18 Aug 2010 11:35

Dmurphy wrote:
prastor wrote:Gripen is next? Well, that is what the whole point of my post was! Will our WANTS overshadow our NEEDS? If yes, then I guess you will be right in saying Gripen is next in line for the axe.
Huh. Don't try to pass off your opinions as facts please.


Dmurphy,

I'm confused by your accusation. :eek:

You were the one to claim Gripen is next (after MiG35) to get the axe in the deal. Did you not say that?

I merely agreed with your claim, under the condition that we let our wants overshadow our needs. I do not see how I claimed anything to be a "fact" here. It was all my "humble observation." :)

My opinions and observations aside, I would like to know why you feel that Gripen is next.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 18 Aug 2010 13:11

prastor wrote:My opinions and observations aside, I would like to know why you feel that Gripen is next.
...because the chankian strategy of having Gripen as a stop gap arrangement to fill in for delayed Tejas is analogous to "the Arab and his camel" story - Gripen will ultimately jeopardise the Tejas program itself.

IMHO, the only way Gripen can make the final cut is if GOI feels too pressurised from all the Western biggies and decides to go with an option where all feel convinced that their main rivals weren't chosen over them.

Oh, and thanks for wanting to know my opinion.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Henrik » 18 Aug 2010 15:38

Consider this: If you want the price for the plane you finally chose to be as low as possible, why axe the cheapest one? You'll need something to bring down the price of the expensive ones.
Also, I think one of the american planes will be axed next. Why? There are two american planes in the competition and you only need one, plus axing one of them puts additional pressure on the americans to deliver more and be more negotiable. I really don't think Indian politicians are willing to spend billions of dollars on a plane that the pakis also have. Sounds like a political suicide to me.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nrshah » 18 Aug 2010 16:29

Ajatshatru wrote:nrshah wrote:
We are thinking from our angle only...


Do I conclude then what you are, in effect, saying is that as Indians we should not think from India's angle (i.e. what is primarily best for India) but should rather think, first and foremost, as to what is in the best interest for Russia? :-?


Indians should look from Indian Angle... But expecting Russians to look from India spectacles is just too much... isn't it?

Ajatshatru wrote:Added later:
nrshah further wrote:
Will you continue to give him loan free when he is paying interest to whole world?


(i) So, according to you, if some other country(s) may be fleecing us, you see no harm if Russia also does the same?
(ii) Is this also then a tacit admission that Russia is no more a 'special friend' of India and India's dealing with Russia now should be like India's commercial dealing with any other country?


I never knew this is definition of special friendship...I always thought special friends are the one who are dependable, reliable, available when required, help you where you face the problem? I always thought i has nothing to do with monetary benefits...

If monetary benefits are the measurement of true / special friendship, than you may be right... Russian may not be our special friend... But than how our special friends are?

Special freindship does not mean selling you at lower price? It means helping you grow.. It means giving you preference over others (might not be at low price)... Russians cannot be written off from special freinds because they give what no body is interested? Ask unkil for its first gen SLBM and dawn will prevail upon you....

And you know what, All this hue and cry is because we have habbit of getting things at lower rate from SU... Su always gave the things free / near free as we are giving to Maldives and all... Now with out economy roaring and we comfortable paying 5 times more to unkil and EU, If russians ask for the correct value, we are not comfortable....

Vik... Even CNS has said we cannot have ship of its caliber for less than 4 bn USD? We want the ship for at 974 mn USD, but we forget that Shivalik class with literally 1/8th displacement costs around 500 Mn USD??? Now that expectation is too much... It is not Indian angle or Russian Angle...

MKI -Today another report in India Strategic, i have posted still continues to say it costs 50 Mns usd? i dont know whom to believe? Even if 100 Mns usd is the rate, why dont we question the inclusion of tiffy, super bug or rafale which thought costing similiar dont have the capabliities of MKI? We are talking of making MKI, brahmos and Nirbhay capable... Can you tell me what cost you will have to pay for getting it done on Super bug? JSF codes are not shared with Uk (all time ally) even after paying 3 bn uSD for R & D? This is something that defines what special freindship is all about... Not stupid figures which are not authenticated and are diputed over many reports...

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Christopher Sidor » 18 Aug 2010 16:37

Henrik wrote:Consider this: If you want the price for the plane you finally chose to be as low as possible, why axe the cheapest one? You'll need something to bring down the price of the expensive ones.
Also, I think one of the american planes will be axed next. Why? There are two american planes in the competition and you only need one, plus axing one of them puts additional pressure on the americans to deliver more and be more negotiable. I really don't think Indian politicians are willing to spend billions of dollars on a plane that the pakis also have. Sounds like a political suicide to me.


Like what you are saying. We should play one against the other and bring down the per unit cost. Every rupee saved can be used for another weapon or one more fighter.


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