MRCA News and Discussion

shanksinha · Post by **shanksinha** » 12 Jul 2010 13:16

MiG-35 (bort No.967) carrying air to ground ordnance:
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/681/023709.jpg

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 12 Jul 2010 13:32

akshay wrote:
shukla wrote:Mate, until the shortlist is announced the '2 plane that we think IAF will go for' discussions are futile.. The shortlist will be the only way discussions will end up being more streamlined..until then each of the 6 and everyones individual favorite is an equal contender..
Shuklaji, that means you agree with me?
there is no shorlist, you will have all 6 contenders gaping while Honoroble Defence Minister unveils the winner.

Ehh.. In fact I couldn't disagree any more mate.. Your suggestion of choosing and discussing only 2 contenders does not make any sense to me. How do you propose to choose the 2 and get everyone on the forum to believe that there is no point in discussing the others. The only way we are going to narrow the discussion on the contenders is the shortlist or official word from IAF's evaluations.

We have no choice but to discuss all 6 of 'em while we wait for the shortlist to be announced. Even if there is no shortlist declared (which I believe is highly unlikely) we will have to discuss every craft in the race, as until then each and every one has a fair chance. We can't pick and choose to discuss only 2 of 'em, as the 2 you might propose for discussion could be the ones that others think have no chance even to make the shortlist and vice versa.

but seriously Brfite folks needs to select atleast 2 planes we think IAF will go for

If you have been here long enough you'd know Brfites preferences from a poll almost a year ago..

akshay · Post by **akshay** » 12 Jul 2010 14:15

shukla wrote: We have no choice but to discuss all 6 of 'em while we wait for the shortlist to be announced
If you have been here long enough you'd know Brfites preferences from a poll almost a year ago..

Your talking semantics ..what i just mean while you can talk of everything in the MRCA ultimately you need to choose one.
As for the poll, you said its almost year old...
is that the one "Poll ended at 29 Aug 2009 09:38 pm" in the Archive with 250 odd votes with Rafale as winner?
i suggest one more in case things have changed since.

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 12 Jul 2010 15:37

The Rafale is a very successful aircraft which does not need its radar to fight “beyond visual range”

Hmm.......Is the Captain implying the use of passive sensors to detect a enemy fighter's RADAR at stand-off distances?

If yes , it would not work if the enemy has AWACS support because fighters normally would not turn on thier RADARS in AWACS supported environment!

And thermal sesors are hardly reliable over 10-20 miles!

Can anyone say if there is another way to engage in BVR fights without using a RADAR?

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 12 Jul 2010 18:52

Steve and Akshay:

I share your point. In my humble opinion, i believe that IAF would rate the following 6 in order of selection:

1. F/18
2. Eurofighter Typhoon
3. Gripen
4. Rafael
5. Mig 35
6. F16

This deal is more about political relationships and buying allies than to build up the Indian Airforce. Building IAF is also a goal but not as important as buying allies. This is also a reason of failure of indian foreign policy that they need to buy weapons to keep allies. Security of nation should be totally separate than our foreign policy.

F18 can be easily procured off the shelf than any other aircraft as of today.

I will need to verify F18 w.r.t to other aircrafts...

Thanks

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 12 Jul 2010 19:06

it's rafale not rafael which is a missile manufacturer

akshay · Post by **akshay** » 12 Jul 2010 22:56

aditya.agd wrote:Steve and Akshay: I share your point.

U have a point there, Aditya

Can we have a poll once again?? ...fresh one.

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 12 Jul 2010 23:03

IMHO, MiG-35 will DEFINETELY make the short list! It will force others to:

1) Lower the prices

2) Better Technology Transfer deals

3)Better their bid with stronger pitch! If the U.S really wants our partnership, they will definitely come a long way to accept most of our terms.............................

Added: It will be tough for others to match the Russians!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Jul 2010 23:11

U have a point there, Aditya

Can we have a poll once again?? ...fresh one.

Can you please keep that poll in the newbie thread.

I don't mean to be sarcastic, but I don't know how you guys are going to finalize the list. The best airforces in the world take 2-3 years to evaluate. None of their evaluations are public. So I don't know what (technical) parameters you will base your selection on! And let me be very frank here, I dont think any of us are qualified enough to grade these awesome planes. Trust me, we are all scratching the skin of planes. Given that, we can only state favourites.

Also to pass that list as BRF-endorsed list ... hmmmm ... I don't agree! But again it is only what I feel!

Moderators, please feel free to delete this post if you find it irrelevant.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Jul 2010 23:27

I can allow a new poll but first you guys have to come up with separate rankings for the following factors

>capability (60:40 in favour of strike against A2A)
>cost, both up front and lifetime
>TOT and technical assistance beyond the MRCA buy
>ease of operability with existing IAF practices
>reliability of supplier
>political weight of supplier country

I know we aren't aware of half these factors but since you people are insisting on a poll we would better do as rigorous a job as we can.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 12 Jul 2010 23:41

nothing new to add on this subject....Today I happened to meet a wing commander who served for IAF till last year at Ambala..and now is working for private industry....I wasn't sure if he has right feeds from his connections..but he said..too many rumors are running...one cannot solidly assume until the word comes from Defense Secretary/ Min of Defense/Fin Min....even ACM's comment on this matter can be technical but commercially his opinions cannot be taken seriously....in the end he said...USA's economy is running wounded..and it needs orders to clean up such wounds with a smirk in his face..

Varun D · Post by **Varun D** » 13 Jul 2010 00:21

hey guys
id like to introduce myself ,im v , im a designer who designs stuff, plannig to start a new defence design co,in 100 km radius from delhi in d next 5 yrs, belong to ambala so have grown under the vibrations n noise of mig 21, jaguars and mirage, and the retired mig 23 and canberra bomber ,

i have friends who's parent are actively involved in the mmrca, as pilots an ex super trainer from the 1st sqdn to run the su 30 mk ( hawks) at yelanka .

now on mmrca updates

there are 2 point of views
airforce
political

the airforce has been asked to give its preffered choice for the 126 aircraft and the politicians will take the decison
as per my discussion

airforce is not interested in obsolete models of american aircrafts due to hindsight and sanctions( f35 is having loads of issues thus f 15 silent eagle is being presented and it has some f22 incorporated techs)

russian stuff is out , lately (3-5 yrs back) when 100% tot for su 30mki wasn't complete they asked for tyres and parachutes what they got was torn para's and slashed tyres

rafale is too expensive in over all cost

gripen has the engine issues but if they resolve it IAF may order gripen ng with ej230 and order ej200 for lca, as gripen is the most adaptable aircraft for russie/euro/american tech n weapons

eurofighter is new product and the 2nd choice ,now th diplomacy is kicking here 4 countries involved if they order these they order ej200 engines for lca which will come with new 3d tvc which they are working on

my pick" euro fighter"

username changed to 'Varun D'. you can ask for a human sounding username of your choice if you want. I would also request you NOT to use sms speak and similar abbreviations here.
welcome to BRF.
Rahul.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Jul 2010 00:38

venkarl, exactly why I don't think it's an useful idea.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 13 Jul 2010 06:58

>>>>USA's economy is running wounded..and it needs orders to clean up such wounds with a smirk in his face..<<<

Do keep in mind the Euro countries are even worst off than the Americans..but ofcourse the Euros are less relevant to India geo-politically speaking.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 13 Jul 2010 07:55

LM & TATA tie up.

Economic times reports...

Lockheed Martin Corp. /quotes/comstock/13*!lmt/quotes/nls/lmt (LMT 74.44, -0.31, -0.41%) and Tata Advanced System Ltd., a part of India's Tata Group, have signed a joint venture pact to make defense equipment and aircraft parts in India, The Economic Times reported Wednesday, citing a request for approval submitted to the Indian authorities.

Lockheed Martin Corp. Aeroframe, a unit of Lockheed Martin--which makes the F16 fighter jet--will invest INR428 million in the proposed joint venture, the report said, citing a proposal submitted to India's Foreign Investment Promotion Board. The Tata group will invest around INR1.22 billion in the joint venture, the report said, without elaborating.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/lockhe ... 2010-07-08

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 13 Jul 2010 07:56

Also, worth reading LM's india pans. (ET)

Lockheed Martin’s chief technology officer Ray Johnson talks to ET on how he views innovation in India, Lockheed’s innovation game-plan and some of the game-changing innovations at the company.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 13 Jul 2010 08:07

Boeing not to be left far behind..

Boeing expands presence in India with Narus Networks

US aerospace major Boeing Thursday announced an agreement to acquire Narus Networks Private Limited, a leading provider of real-time network traffic and analytics software used to protect against cyber attacks and persistent threats aimed at large Internet Protocol networks. The acquisition follows a successful partnership between the two companies and advances Boeing’s strategy to offer world-class, scalable, state-of-the-art cyber security solutions, a Boeing statement said.

Narus is headquartered in Sunnyvale, California, and has a strong presence in Bangalore. ‘This acquisition is another step forward in our strategy to develop integrated solutions for better network visibility, threat detection, and cybersecurity,’ said Roger Krone, president of Boeing Network & Space Systems, a business within the Boeing Defense, Space & Security (BDS) operating unit.

‘Narus’ India team and their unique capabilities to secure complex networks will be a significant benefit to Boeing and our customers,’ Krone added. In addition to supporting cyber activities within Boeing Network & Space Systems, Narus’ network-centric technology also will be applied to Boeing’s smart grid energy work, the secure networking of Boeing’s ground, air and space products, and the defense of the Boeing network, the company said.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 13 Jul 2010 08:07

US hoping to clinch MMRCA deal

“The U.S administration has sought a bigger share for hi-tech American products in a bid to boost bilateral defence, commercial and trade relations with India”. Anand Sharma Minister of commerce and industry had a meeting with US commerce secretary Mr. Gary Locke on the issue of sidelines of Indo-US CEO Forum. Mr. Gary requested India to favorably consider the bids of the two contenders that are Boeing and Lockheed for the Indian Air force supervised deal of MMRCA.

“The Indian government’s aircraft deal is very important to the US with vital implications for our bilateral defence, commercial and trade relations,” the US commerce department said. “This acquisition is another step forward in our strategy to develop integrated solutions for better network visibility, threat detection, and cyber security,” said Roger Krone, president Space Systems(of Boeing Network &). “Narus’ India team and its unique capabilities to secure complex networks will be a significant benefit to Boeing and our customers,” he said

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Jul 2010 09:56

Varun D wrote: <SNIP>i have friends who's parent are actively involved in the mmrca, as pilots an ex super trainer from the 1st sqdn to run the su 30 mk ( hawks) at yelanka .<SNIP>

A sincere piece of advice - please be very circumspect and cautious in revealing information which might be potentialy sensitive in nature and not available in public domain; same is the case with qouting links in armed forces or R&D/PSU establishments. We don't want to jeoperdize opsec or someone career for fulfilling our jingoistic urges.

Welcome to the forum.
Thanx.

akshay · Post by **akshay** » 13 Jul 2010 10:53

indranilroy wrote: Can you please keep that poll in the newbie thread.
Also to pass that list as BRF-endorsed list ... hmmmm ... I don't agree! But again it is only what I feel!
Moderators, please feel free to delete this post if you find it irrelevant.

My friend, we are collating responses. If you think an BRfite MRCA poll is to go to Newbie site, fine

. The poll has taken place once. In Aug 2009 Rafale was the favorite. Is it still the plane that Brfite members would choose?
But first why don't you tell us why You don't agree with the BRF-endorsed list ? (rhetorical Q)
If you can understand your reason, obviously you should understand mine.

@RahulM working on your info , but all members need to agree for a re-appraisal of ideas...
When you say ranking for 6 factors ..does this mean 6 polls on each factor?
u could lead/write with an example since you spend most time here methinks

kit · Post by **kit** » 13 Jul 2010 11:18

Rahul M wrote:I can allow a new poll but first you guys have to come up with separate rankings for the following factors

>capability (60:40 in favor of strike against A2A)
>cost, both up front and lifetime
>TOT and technical assistance beyond the MRCA buy
>ease of operability with existing IAF practices
>reliability of supplier
>political weight of supplier country

I know we aren't aware of half these factors but since you people are insisting on a poll we would better do as rigorous a job as we can.

Maybe we can have another poll on how much weightage should be given to each factor in an overall rank

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 13 Jul 2010 11:35

Rahul M wrote:venkarl, exactly why I don't think it's an useful idea.

Well, the power rests in your hands Rahulji....Its a good idea to discuss on the criterion you have listed out..atleast gurus here can come close to IAF's choice technically which will educate non-technical folks like me about any aircraft's capabilities as per Indian requirement...rather than simply logging in and saying some fighter plane name <nothing personal>..and commercial considerations involves too much guessing without any knowledge of political aims of GoI{unless some insider spills all the beans and spoil the MRCA fest}

rkhanna saab..you are very much correct that euro is in more trouble than dollar..but for India..all that matters is dollaraan dollaraan...

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Jul 2010 13:11

akshay wrote:
indranilroy wrote: Can you please keep that poll in the newbie thread.
Also to pass that list as BRF-endorsed list ... hmmmm ... I don't agree! But again it is only what I feel!
Moderators, please feel free to delete this post if you find it irrelevant.
My friend, we are collating responses. If you think an BRfite MRCA poll is to go to Newbie site, fine . The poll has taken place once. In Aug 2009 Rafale was the favorite. Is it still the plane that Brfite members would choose?
But first why don't you tell us why You don't agree with the BRF-endorsed list ? (rhetorical Q)
If you can understand your reason, obviously you should understand mine.

@RahulM working on your info , but all members need to agree for a re-appraisal of ideas...
When you say ranking for 6 factors ..does this mean 6 polls on each factor?
u could lead/write with an example since you spend most time here methinks

My reasoning is very simple my friend. I don't know what amongst the multirole function has the highest priority. Given that MMRCA is a stop gap for the LCA, it could have been primarily point defence fighters. Given that Mirages were the first choice, it should have sufficient ground attack capabilities. But what is the split? I don't know. I don't think it is in public domain.

Besides, how do you say one plane is better than the others? Even if you split each component. for each component, (say radar), how do you say one is better than the other? Every radar seems to be good at somethings and okay at others. Which parameter do you think is more important? With all the technology so fluid and yet to see any wartime application, I don't know how to evaluate them. Then comes the part of putting each of these components together and seeing the plane as a whole. I simply can't find enough information in the public domain. in spite of spending a good 2-3 hours everyday reading about fighters.

So then should we go by DACT exercises? How do we read the results of DACT exercises. The objectives are never in public domain. Every airforce reveals only what it wants to reveal. Then there is the issue of which pilot flew what.

So sir, I feel highly unqualified to judge these complex machines. Thousands of designers and researchers come up with a plane after 2 decades banking on a century of know how. Airforces need years to evaluate these even when they know their clear objectives and with all their experience. I, on the other hand have neither of the 2. How should I evaluate? I don't know anybody here who has that knowledge either. And the people who know won't/shouldn't speak. So I would be left only with my guesstimates based on absolutely no ground knowledge. I personally would like to refrain from it.

Besides do you know any person who knows aerodynamics as well as engines as well as avionics bla bla bla. If yes please point me to him. If not, how are we supposed to evaluate a complete plane.

You can go ahead with a poll in whichever thread you and wherever the mods agree. I am nobody to stop you. My previous post was s suggestion. I take it back. I believe in the saying, "Little knowledge is dangerous". So I would not be part of the list building except for the occasional doubts. I hope you get the list at the end and I learn something on the way!

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 13 Jul 2010 15:31

^^
Could not agree more. All these rankings provide us with nothing other than baseless individual opinion. No member knows enough either about the a/cs nor about the AF requirements to make such rankings.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 13 Jul 2010 16:04

Well said @ Indranilroy.. I couldn't agree more. Rankings will serve no purpose whatsoever.. Complete waste of time..

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 13 Jul 2010 17:56

Link

Earlier this year an in-country evaluation of the Gripen NG was successfully completed, with the deployment representing the demonstrator aircraft's first international commitment.

The aircraft left Linköping on 17 May and the following day completed its ferry flight to Jamnagar via refuelling stops in Kecskemet (Hungary), Athens (Greece), Hurgada (Egypt), Riyadh (Saudi Arabia) and Muscat (Oman).

Trials were made in the harsh environmental conditions at Leh air base, 10,800ft above sea level in the Himalayas. During the day, the temperature was as high as 49°C (120°F).

"The aircraft was loaded with full fuel tanks and IRIS-T missiles. Eight sorties were made in India, both by Swedish and Indian air force pilots," de la Motte says.

The evaluations included in-flight refuelling with an Ilyushin Il-78MKI tanker, and engine ground runs and restarts were also performed, with to problems were reported. The Gripen NG returned to Sweden on 22-23 May.

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 14 Jul 2010 03:54

If the U.S. offers the technology of t/r modules on APG-79(highly unlikely though) and theGrowler, then Super Hornet is the way to go! Proven and has service atleast till 2030! also has a block III upgrade in the offing!

But all depends on what extent the U.S. will go to to win India's trust!

Rafale is a strong contender as France will extend transfer of technology and cooperation to almost any level and any sphere! (read SSNs/SSBNs)

Seriously by 2025, stealth will be the key word and hence aircraft performance is not the prime criterion for selection!

And the EADS said it all a few days back: It will be a political decision.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Jul 2010 05:02

Kanan wrote: Seriously by 2025, stealth will be the key word and hence aircraft performance is not the prime criterion for selection!

Stealth is certainly going to be a player. But to say air performance is not going to be a prime criterion might be very untrue.

Atleast, the PAK-FA designers believe so. So do the f-35 manufacturers (it is another issue that f-35 is not performance-wise where they would have liked it to be). And the world of aviators seems to agree.

Even in the EU, many feel that it is better to have the Rafale and the Eurofighter than the F-35, though the F-35 has VLO while the others don't. Surely all these planes are going to be around by 2025! whats more neither of them would be old-fashioned

.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 14 Jul 2010 17:06

Kanan wrote:If the U.S. offers the technology of t/r modules on APG-79(highly unlikely though) and theGrowler, then Super Hornet is the way to go! Proven and has service atleast till 2030! also has a block III upgrade in the offing!

But all depends on what extent the U.S. will go to to win India's trust!

.

eads and elta are in competition for tejas aes.While US companies did not participate in the tender — apparently after they could not gain permission from the government to share the high end technology — Russia’s largest radar company Phazotron and France’s defence giant Thales were dropped due to technical reasons. Italian Selex did not make it to the next round after failing to deposit the earnest money specified in the tender.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Israe ... jas/646059

these americans they are not willing to share AESA technology FOR lca tejas, THEN WHAT TO SAY OF APG-79,,,its highly unlikely that USA will give the technology,,, they will offer tech tranfer only if u have the tech ,,,now the americans are offering PAC-3 PATRIOT,, U KNOW WHY?? BECAUSE WE HAVE PAD and AAD.. its always better to go for european or russian bird than any us bird

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Jul 2010 17:29

I was going through an earlier post in the LCA thread about the race for developing an AESA radar for the LCA,where the govt. has called only two manufacturers for their offers (Israeli or EADS only for the LCA MK-2),might offer a clue to the IAF's preference which could have ramifications on the MMRCA contest. US manufacturers reportedly couldn't get their govt's. clearance.That should scuttle both US birds,plus the French,Russian (technical) and Italian (financial) didn't make the grade for differing reasons.If these radars were rejected for the above reasons,it stands to reason that they will impact upon the evaluation by the IAF for the MMRCA,where an AESA radar is a key requirement.If true,then it is kaput for the Super Horny,as frankly the Falcon is fatally handicapped being flown by the Pakis.The fact that the Eyeties couldn't come up with the moolah for developing the SELEX radar casts a shadow on the Gripen.Only a sudden about turn by Ombaba when he visits India might alllow the F-18SH to survive to the next round.This decision on the LCA is an important one and shouldn't be ignored as a key factor in the MMRCA race.If the EJ is also chosen as the engine for the LCA MK-2,then the chances of the Typhoon will improve dramatically,especially if both radar and engine are selected for the LCA,it would make enormous common and commercial sense to standardise upon the same for both LCA and MMRCA.

The only fly in the ointment is if the Israeli radar is picked and the Russians offer it on the MIG-35,while the EJ wins the engine contract,which looks likely especially as EADS is involved as a consultant to the LCA project.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 Jul 2010 18:17

Kanan wrote: Seriously by 2025, stealth will be the key word and hence aircraft performance is not the prime criterion for selection!

aerodynamic performance would be an even bigger factor than it is today if every aircraft becomes stealthy tomorrow .

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 14 Jul 2010 19:32

Philip wrote:I was going through an earlier post in the LCA thread about the race for developing an AESA radar for the LCA,where the govt. has called only two manufacturers for their offers (Israeli or EADS only for the LCA MK-2),might offer a clue to the IAF's preference which could have ramifications on the MMRCA contest. US manufacturers reportedly couldn't get their govt's. clearance.That should scuttle both US birds,plus the French,Russian (technical) and Italian (financial) didn't make the grade for differing reasons.If these radars were rejected for the above reasons,it stands to reason that they will impact upon the evaluation by the IAF for the MMRCA,where an AESA radar is a key requirement.If true,then it is kaput for the Super Horny,as frankly the Falcon is fatally handicapped being flown by the Pakis.The fact that the Eyeties couldn't come up with the moolah for developing the SELEX radar casts a shadow on the Gripen.Only a sudden about turn by Ombaba when he visits India might alllow the F-18SH to survive to the next round.This decision on the LCA is an important one and shouldn't be ignored as a key factor in the MMRCA race.If the EJ is also chosen as the engine for the LCA MK-2,then the chances of the Typhoon will improve dramatically,especially if both radar and engine are selected for the LCA,it would make enormous common and commercial sense to standardise upon the same for both LCA and MMRCA.

The only fly in the ointment is if the Israeli radar is picked and the Russians offer it on the MIG-35,while the EJ wins the engine contract,which looks likely especially as EADS is involved as a consultant to the LCA project.

Very Good observation!

U.S might not want to share tech unless assured of the big pie; but you are right! U.S pitch needs a "dramatic turnaround"! We Indians have never accepted second class treatment (which the U.S gives most of its allies:like PAK) and I m sure we all would like to keep it that way!

Most observers think that Elta will get the RADAR for LCA because they have been involved in the LCA for a long time!

I would personally like to see a diffrent RADAR on every fighter because what one kind of RADAR say (EL/M-2052)might miss;another RADAR (say APG-79) has better chance of detecting!

Hence I would prefer a different RADAR on LCA and MMRCA!

What do you guys think?

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 14 Jul 2010 19:41

aerodynamic performance would be an even bigger factor than it is today if every aircraft becomes stealthy tomorrow .

this is quite true for fifth gen vs fifth gen like PAK-Fa vs. F-35!

But what about 4th gen vs. 5th gen! I am sure the pilot of say an F-35 would not want a dogfight withRafale/Eurofighter! He sees them first and fires at them and keeps the distance!

So, I think, as many have said before in this thread, ToT and geopolitik will be more of a decider than aircraft performance in MMRCA race!

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 14 Jul 2010 20:23

IAF fighter deal shortlist unlikely before December

The ministry may draw up a shortlist of three or four by December or January, industry sources indicated. Ministry officials declined to comment on this. "Whichever player meets the technical requirements will remain in the fray," said an official requesting anonymity. "We cannot put a definite number to it."

The first batch of fully built 18 aircraft are expected to enter service between 2014 and 2017. Subsequently, semi-knocked down versions are likely to be inducted in batches of 18 each year till 2024. These dates could change depending on when the actual deal is signed.

"Usually, it takes about four-six months after the shortlist, but at the end of the day it is a political decision, so the deal could face delays and in the worst-case scenario, might even drag on till the end of 2012," a defence analyst told Mint.

The fourth largest air force in the world is targeting a combat aircraft squadron strength of 42 by 2022. It has only 30-32 such operational squadrons at any given time, against an officially mandated 39.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Jul 2010 21:49

And when did standardisation was a mantra for defence service beyond lip service on the contrary the wide rage of diversity in weapon , sensors and aircraft that Indian Defence Service operate it seems the operative word is the more diversified the better.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 14 Jul 2010 22:18

shukla wrote:IAF fighter deal shortlist unlikely before December

Jeez, our media always complains about LCA being late but they never complain when we take a decade to buy an already ready to fly fighter.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 14 Jul 2010 22:56

By Amy Wilson, City Reporter, Aerospace
Published: 5:16PM BST 13 Jul 2010
Seeking to reassure investor anxiety about cuts to BAE's UK business after the strategic defence review in the autumn, Mr King said the final tranche of Eurofighter Typhoons, which BAE builds in Lancashire, is not included in the company's financial planning assumptions. The order could be delayed if it is not dropped entirely.
However, manufacturing work could last as long or longer with exports, Mr King said. An export agreement between the UK and Oman is expected to be signed within a year, and the Eurofighter consortium, which includes EADS and Finmeccanica, is also competing for orders from India and Japan.
There are 48 jets outstanding in the final set of Typhoons, under the original terms of Britain's agreement.
Mr King also said he expects both the aircraft carriers BAE is constructing for the Royal Navy to be built, but said there is a possibility that the MoD could cut costs by only using one in active service, and using the second for a logistical role, allowing it to be deployed when the active carrier was being serviced.
BAE has already cut jobs in the UK, to keep the size of the business in line with the work available from the MoD. Another 260 jobs losses were announced this month, at BAE's design centre in Leicester.
"We haven't been sitting on our hands," Mr King said. "We've profiled fast jets coming out of service early, we've profiled 3B [Typhoon] not being signed up on time."
Mr King said a new defence industrial strategy will follow the strategic defence review, and called on the government to set out exactly what defence manufacturing capability it wants to keep in the UK.
The company expects growth in the next few years to come from fighter jets and more support work in its home markets, including maintenance work for the US Navy.

If one was to use the logic of some posters (I won't mention names but a cursory glance at the C-17 thread will make it obvious) who continuously crib about the C-17 purchase as being a bail-out for Boeing and a sell out by politicians or whatever, then possibly the same cribbing should now start relating to the Typhoon as well and continue every time the Typhoon is mentioned in any news report relating to India..that the RAF is not interested in purchasing any more Typhoons whereas they’re only hoping to secure some export orders to save jobs in the UK. And that there is no advantage to having the Typhoon when cheaper US, European or Russian alternatives are available.

negi · Post by **negi** » 15 Jul 2010 00:23

Austin wrote:And when did standardisation was a mantra for defence service beyond lip service on the contrary the wide rage of diversity in weapon , sensors and aircraft that Indian Defence Service operate it seems the operative word is the more diversified the better.

Kaptan saab imho 'standardization' is only a Jingo pipe dream , defense procurement is by and large influenced by political factors hence as long as we continue to import standardization will not be achieved , Amrika bahadur or great Bear manage to achieve that as their weapons procurement road map is drafted by the military well in advance.

We have it going to some extent with Tejas and N-LCA same is possible with Arjun (that chasis can be used by bridge layers, Akash/Nag platforms, SPH or even mobile radars).

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 15 Jul 2010 01:09

Austin wrote:And when did standardisation was a mantra for defence service beyond lip service on the contrary the wide rage of diversity in weapon , sensors and aircraft that Indian Defence Service operate it seems the operative word is the more diversified the better.

I would agree with you! Diversification keeps you on the safer side! At least as far as RADARS are concerned! Say if one RADAR fails to detect J-xx effectively,then another RADAR kind would have a better chance....................

Su-30MKI-Irbis-E/Advanced AESA?

LCA Tejas-EL/M-2052/Indigenous AESA (to be aded later)

MMRCA- European/American/Russian

PAK/FA-ZhuK-ASE?

What say?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Jul 2010 01:32

Kanan wrote:
aerodynamic performance would be an even bigger factor than it is today if every aircraft becomes stealthy tomorrow .
this is quite true for fifth gen vs fifth gen like PAK-Fa vs. F-35!

But what about 4th gen vs. 5th gen! I am sure the pilot of say an F-35 would not want a dogfight withRafale/Eurofighter! He sees them first and fires at them and keeps the distance!

Kanan, I would suggest that you read how BVR engagements are carried out. You would not have written this, if you knew about them.

There are lots of configurations, modes of search, missile carried, guidance used etc etc. Also, even if the F-35 detects the Euro-canards first, the euro-canards would not just see missiles falling out of the sky! They would see the F-35 within seconds of the missile launch. Needless to say that the F-35 would be in a advantage here, having fired the missiles first. But there are so many ways that the engagement can pan out from there, and there aerodynamic ability is going to be of supreme importance.1

One shouldn't be in that misconception that in WVR you detect an enemy fighter and shoot a fire-and -forget missile(s), and go home without being detected, whereas your enemy gets shot down by your fire and forget missiles.

Especially between a F-35 and the euro-canards, more often than not, they would end up in WVR engagement. And that is not my analysis, you will find that on many articles written by very respected aviators. I would leave it at that.