MRCA News and Discussion

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Henrik
BRFite
Posts: 211
Joined: 10 Apr 2010 15:55
Location: Southern Sweden

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Henrik » 14 May 2010 18:06

manjgu wrote:Henrik.. what you say is correct.. but you gotta admit that frenchie stuff is very good/ top notch ( maybe not cost effective for a importer). plus the article also admits to the fact that the opposing pilots were rookies, whereas the French pilots were old horses.

The Rafale is good yes, but I fail to see how it would be "best", or "superiour". Especially when you take stuff like weapons and sensors into the equation.

Danell
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 44
Joined: 26 Sep 2009 15:14

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Danell » 14 May 2010 23:23

Henrik wrote:
manjgu wrote:Henrik.. what you say is correct.. but you gotta admit that frenchie stuff is very good/ top notch ( maybe not cost effective for a importer). plus the article also admits to the fact that the opposing pilots were rookies, whereas the French pilots were old horses.

The Rafale is good yes, but I fail to see how it would be "best", or "superiour". Especially when you take stuff like weapons and sensors into the equation.


Hehe, that's just because you're a biased Swedish only interested to hear wonders about your favorite plane :wink:
It's easy ,learn from the french , send your Gripen to the next ATLC , kill everyone there and then when he'll be back, ask the squadron leader :" Woooow how did you do that ? :eek: :eek: :eek:

Im kidding
"kill everyone there": you can't !

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16888
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 14 May 2010 23:44

Image

Devesh Rawal
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 35
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 09:01
Location: USA

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Devesh Rawal » 15 May 2010 03:07

Breaking news about the SH:
US DoD agrees to buy 124 F/A-18E/Fs and EA-18Gs over 4 years

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/05/14/342005/us-dod-agrees-to-buy-124-fa-18efs-and-ea-18gs-over-4.html

This article claims "for an undisclosed sum". Note the large % of growlers (58 of 124).

The deal means that Boeing will continue producing the F/A-18E/F and EA-18G through at least calendar year 2015.


This is a good thing for the SH chances, when compared to the other top contenders that are in production runs.

Question: does this mean that if selected, all 126 for the IAF could also potentially be delivered in 4 years?

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5382
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 15 May 2010 03:39

Devesh Rawal wrote:
This is a good thing for the SH chances, when compared to the other top contenders that are in production runs.

Question: does this mean that if selected, all 126 for the IAF could also potentially be delivered in 4 years?


I don't think that the USN's rate of induction or Boeing's rate of production of Shornets are a good indicator for the MRCA. The USN has established training/simulation/infrastructure for the Shornet. They will face a lot less issues inducting them in large numbers for that reason.

OTOH, the IAF will have its own rate at which it can absorb the MRCA. They are continuing to induct Su-30MKIs and soon shall start inducting LCAs as well and these inductions will be on-going at the time that the MRCA will start coming in..so there will be limits on how many pilots and instructors can convert to the MRCA. Plus all the logistics, training, etc. that will be on-going at that time for ground technicians, mechanics, etc..

That apart, Boeing will need to transfer tools, jigs, drawings, manuals, etc. to HAL during the period when it will be building the first 18 direct-supply Shornets at it's St. Louis plant. After that, there will be a ramp-up period during which HAL will need to master the production of the Shornet. And while HAL has been licence building other fighters, with every new fighter comes its own production methods, and its own learning curve and in this case the fact that it will be a US fighter with US manufacturing techniques that will need to be mastered. And the curve will be steep no doubt, for HAL to be able to meet a target of fully inducing 126 MRCA's by 2022- i.e in 8 years at an average rate of 15 per year- will be slower at first and then ramp up to 18-20 per year as the production line stabilises.

I'd expect teething troubles during the first 2-3 years, similar to what we saw for the Hawk. So basically, comparing Boeing's capability to build and deliver Shornets on time to HAL which hasn't built any as yet, is not right IMO. Boeing are the baaps in this business and their Lean practices are actually being used at HAL now. If it was a question of Boeing delivering 126 MRCAs direct to the IAF (if the IAF was able to absorb so many per year- impossible for a new user) then I'd say yes, that Boeing could meet that goal.

All this applies mostly to Boeing and LM only- other contenders will bring their own sets of troubles and possible benefits as well. But of all the OEMs, IMO, Boeing (and LM too, but Boeing has a much better relationship with HAL) is the most capable of delivering on time and without escalations of the kind that we've seen with Russia and even France (Scorpene).

Henrik
BRFite
Posts: 211
Joined: 10 Apr 2010 15:55
Location: Southern Sweden

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Henrik » 15 May 2010 05:24

Danell wrote:Hehe, that's just because you're a biased Swedish only interested to hear wonders about your favorite plane :wink:
It's easy ,learn from the french , send your Gripen to the next ATLC , kill everyone there and then when he'll be back, ask the squadron leader :" Woooow how did you do that ? :eek: :eek: :eek:

Im kidding
"kill everyone there": you can't !

No it's more like frenchmen can't take critic on their beloved Rafale. And sorry, there's not much to learn from the french, exept how to make cheese. :wink: :P

Swedish Air force pilots have explicit orders not to brag and downgrade other nations' planes on international exercises, so now you know that. And why you might wonder? Well, Sweden is not a NATO country eventhough it has a close cooperation with them. Therefore Sweden is not automatically invited to all the exercises, and that's why it's important to keep a low profile and not to i.e be rude towards your host. But that is just common sense really.

Devesh Rawal
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 35
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 09:01
Location: USA

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Devesh Rawal » 15 May 2010 09:10

Kartik wrote:I'd expect teething troubles during the first 2-3 years, similar to what we saw for the Hawk. So basically, comparing Boeing's capability to build and deliver Shornets on time to HAL which hasn't built any as yet, is not right IMO. Boeing are the baaps in this business and their Lean practices are actually being used at HAL now. If it was a question of Boeing delivering 126 MRCAs direct to the IAF (if the IAF was able to absorb so many per year- impossible for a new user) then I'd say yes, that Boeing could meet that goal.


Thank you Kartik, for a very informed and balanced post. I learned something - IMO you are right on all counts. I wonder if anyone from HAL is on the selection committee - or at least evaluating some report on what issues each OEM might bring to the table.

:)

Shatack
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 55
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 22:06

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shatack » 15 May 2010 13:12

Henrik wrote:
Asking a french pilot about his plane is like asking the Pope to describe Catholisism, if the story about Adam and Eve is true and compare it to other religions. To ask the National Gun Association if everybode should be allowed to carry a gun, or ask a frenchman what he thinks about his National Anthem.

It's baised, that's what I'm trying to say. It's just propagating on "superiour the Rafale is" and downgrading other. All french bragging should be divided by at least 3.



Your propaganda smears will not remove the facts, DSI is an international defence media talking about world geopolitics and defense, it is as objective as AFm or aviationweek, so getting clues from a rafale leader sqd with this sharpness is very interesting to know how the fighter works, but if DSI is catholicism pope mag, you still can read Air force Monthly , the same interview is released!

get a look at the new GRIPEN NG "stealth" just Saab released it,

Image

Shatack
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 55
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 22:06

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shatack » 15 May 2010 13:21

Henrik wrote:
manjgu wrote:Henrik.. what you say is correct.. but you gotta admit that frenchie stuff is very good/ top notch ( maybe not cost effective for a importer). plus the article also admits to the fact that the opposing pilots were rookies, whereas the French pilots were old horses.

The Rafale is good yes, but I fail to see how it would be "best", or "superiour". Especially when you take stuff like weapons and sensors into the equation.



:rotfl: :rotfl:

Paths for a future F4 standard
DSI May 2010


In 2019 or 2020 should start deliveries for tranche 5 Rafale, to be ordered late 2015. Already, the various stakeholders of the program are working to trace the contours of the standard - F4 - of these weapons systems. The PEA for exploring paths for capacitive improvements have started last fall. The aim is to commission a review of all areas, to examine every major system or equipment and try to evaluate which technology advances are expected to be at the rendez vous and those which couldn't be. Or those for whom it will be be possible to justify and obtain budgetary credits and those for whom it will not be possible! This explains the contents of this future F4 standard is still no freezed. However, the operationals are almost already expressing the considerable importance to dispose of a viewfinder-HMD. In A2A, it would allow one rafale to launch its MICA on a hostile aircraft without having to roll up in a close dogfight, which requires to be rid of its load of bombs. So to be able to continue its A2G original mission.

Essential viewfinder-HMD.

Beyond, the airmen consider that the viewfinder-HMD would provide an added value in the field of air-ground support, allowing to design to the weapon system, with the cross of the HMD, a ground target which would be in lateral or rear area and not necessarily, as it is the case today, in the front line sector of the aircraft. Or to design, via the Link-16, the ground target to a team member taking over. Thales evoked the possibility of an efficient equipment for the Rafale coming from the current Tiger HMD . And it seems quite clear that such equipment is much anticipated by potential export customers of the Rafale.

In the A2G field , operationals intend to have a laser designation pods even more efficient than the Damocles just arrived today in the qualification phase. They want the capacity to determine from a 6000 m altitude if the individual located on the ground is armed or not. As for weapons, they evoke missille with double capacity air-ground and air-air. And for the AASM bombs, they emphasize the development, for the 250 kg bomb, of laser guidance in addition to the current route by GPS and inertial hybridized IR sensor, but also on the achievement for the 250 kg body , of modular charges adapted to various types of employment and target, for example to focus on the effects of detonation and reduce collateral damage. The operationals do not want the AASM 125 kg proposed by Sagem. However an AASM 1000 kg with the ability to penetrate bunkers and reinforced buildings is favorably mentioned.

The air-ground sensors of the weapon system should also provide very high definition modes to improve the tracking of ground target (GMTI GMTT modes for the radar) with more complex interweaving of air-ground and air- air modes (monitoring of aerial threats in various areas while providing a ground tracking function). In the A2A field, one will have to start thinking about the studies for a MICA successor and to improve a little more the capabilities for identification of non-cooperative target (NCTR). In the matter of data links, including the Link-16, one will have to make greater use of satellite links. And the sea serpent of steering nozzle for the M88 is discussed again. It is also question of developing a stealth kit. Work will be launched to reduce the RCS by modifying the coating of the cans under the Rafale.

INCAS [Insert New Additional Capacity for SPECTRA] for SPECTRA 5T.

Already, the authorities and industrials are preparing evolutions for SPECTRA , to allow it to remain very effective when will start coming the tranche 5 Rafale. The PEA INCAS (Insert New Additional Capacity for SPECTRA), notified last September by the DGA to Thales Airborne Systems and MBDA, is indeed preparing SPECTRA 5T. The real challenge, according to Thales engineers, is to think, not only about the original equipment on board the new tranche 5 Rafale, but also about the retrofit in the framework of a prospective site to put this future new standard for the rest of the fleet including the first Rafale delivered.

An ambition much more delicate than it seems at first glance, because it need to evolve SPECTRA within acceptable limits - volume, mass, energy, cable, Interactions - by the first Rafale series, although their architecture has been conceived in the late 1980s. This requires, according to Thales officials, treasures of cunning and ingenuity. We must keep reaching an extreme interchangeability. Because the great longevity planned for the Rafale actually complicates the task. One need to design systems, allowing them the opportunity to integrate with minimal impact new technologies able to cope with post-2020 or even 2030 threats, still not easily discernible. As now formulated, the fundamental objective of SPECTRA 5T is therefore to be able to detect, even further, more discreet and even furtive threats.
How? by integrating, at the air entrances more efficient EM broadband receptors. Unlike current SPECTRA, with receivers still mixing analog and digital, those of SPECTRA 5T will be entirely digital. Which, incidentally, will facilitate transport and data management. More, added to future new processing algorithms, this increased "digitization" of equipement should provide a significant improvement in terms of sensitivity and angular measurement, with the added advantage of greater receptor compactness . This will allow, with equal volume, to much more! It is certainly delicate, given the sensitivity of the topic,to enter further into the details of improvements in matter of performance and functionality. But it must be very clear: according to Thales engineers, it is a revolution for technology and capability at the same level as it is for the RBE2 Radar evolving from a passive PESA antenna to the active AESA.

The GaN revolution.

This "revolution" also relates to jamming equipment for the future SPECTRA 5T. These transmitters, integrated at the top of the drift and the forward fuselage, near the apices and before the canard, will benefit from the integration of a new technology the gallium nitride (GaN) to replace the arsenide gallium currently used. The use of this broadband semiconductor, still unique within the European Union, very hard and with a very high thermal capacity, is expected to reduce significantly the electrical consumer and heating for a given power. The solid state antennas will provide a much greater lens precision with a very narrow emission beam. Note that to avoid any risk of external pressure on eventual Rafale export sales, the GaN components, like the gallium arsenide modules already used for the new RBE2 active antenna ,will be produced in France by a factory of the Franco-German company ( EADS / Thales joint-venture) UMS. The Thales engineers are also working to modify the current distribution between reception and jamming functions in SPECTRA. With, for example, the idea to integrate, for SPECTRA 5T, a multisignal RF receiver within the jammers. Viewing similarities between jammers and receivers components, such an approach would be technologically feasible and, potentially, would provide interesting synergies. Nevertheless, the collocation of such equipment would introduce real technical difficulties - EM compatibility -, though perfectly manageable. This pass, to avoid to perturb the receiver with collocated jamming emission, by appealing different waveforms for each equipment, with a wider range of frequence than currently employed on Spectra and with the implementation of active filters. In contrast, the locations and volumes vested to such equipment would remain unchanged from today. No way to modify anything in the aerodynamics of the aircraft or to impact the structure of the cell. Similarly, these changes would occur at energy isoconsumption [same energy consumption]. Asked whether the integration of tracted active EM decoys - in use with F/A-18E/F, B-1 and Typhoon - could be an interesting track for SPECTRA 5T, Thales engineers , as also the operationals, replied by expressing doubts about the broad effectiveness of the formula. It is difficult to re-roll the lure in flight and it must be dropped before landing. Hooked from a certain distance behind the carrier, it could allow a foreign fire control to recognize it as a decoy and, paradoxically, to facilitate the detection of the real target. Certainly, the tracted active EM jammer provides good angular jamming. But the SPECTRA ability to use jamming in cooperative mode - mode still insufficiently cleared by the operationals - is expected to balance the absence of tracted decoys on the Rafale.What is almost certain, however, is that SPECTRA 5T will implement dropped active EM lures . They should be able to simulate the RCS of a Rafale and to track, thanks to the deployment of a small wing, a trajectory similar to the simulation of an airplane. This had already been the subject of studies and demonstration trials during the 1990s. It seems that the expected performance of these "dropped" lures are higher than those tracted. Nevertheless, studies will be launched to assess the interest of the latter. The carriage of additional IR cartridges on some external payload points is also expected. Although the PEA INCAS has been notified in November 2009, the study of the SPECTRA 5T architecture system have already made good progress. Suitable demonstrators for various equipment should begin to work next year. J.-L ®

GeorgeWelch
BRFite
Posts: 1393
Joined: 12 Jun 2009 09:31

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 15 May 2010 19:12

The Rafale is the clear #1 at making standard functions sound impressive with technical gobbedly-gook and fancy names.

Henrik
BRFite
Posts: 211
Joined: 10 Apr 2010 15:55
Location: Southern Sweden

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Henrik » 15 May 2010 19:24

Shatack wrote:
Henrik wrote:
Asking a french pilot about his plane is like asking the Pope to describe Catholisism, if the story about Adam and Eve is true and compare it to other religions. To ask the National Gun Association if everybode should be allowed to carry a gun, or ask a frenchman what he thinks about his National Anthem.

It's baised, that's what I'm trying to say. It's just propagating on "superiour the Rafale is" and downgrading other. All french bragging should be divided by at least 3.



Your propaganda smears will not remove the facts, DSI is an international defence media talking about world geopolitics and defense, it is as objective as AFm or aviationweek, so getting clues from a rafale leader sqd with this sharpness is very interesting to know how the fighter works, but if DSI is catholicism pope mag, you still can read Air force Monthly , the same interview is released!

get a look at the new GRIPEN NG "stealth" just Saab released it,
Image

You just said it yourself! Same interview! Just because you have it printed in different magazines doesn't make it more true.

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Henrik
BRFite
Posts: 211
Joined: 10 Apr 2010 15:55
Location: Southern Sweden

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Henrik » 15 May 2010 19:24

GeorgeWelch wrote:The Rafale is the clear #1 at making standard functions sound impressive with technical gobbedly-gook and fancy names.

I couldn't agree more. 8)

arthuro
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 06 Sep 2008 13:35

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby arthuro » 15 May 2010 23:09

It is true that some french poster boasts a little bit too much usually. That being said the article provide accurate datas and with quoted source for the ATLC part.

DSI is a serious defense magazine with high profile academic (university teachers) contributions or top military interviews from all part of the world. I can remember interviews from a general from the marine corps about COIN or the USAF chief of staff about air power doctrine to give some examples.

The fact that the french side is happy with the result does not mean they are lying. It is their very own right to be happy with the good results. I see that for some giving good news for the rafale automatically means propaganda and bad news = very good informations.
So if you are able to go beyhond the pissing and posturing contest it is a mine of informations. DSI is the magazine which has revealed most of the capabilities of manny military systems compared to other journos.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4676
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 16 May 2010 03:44

Fact is that a representative of the Adla - Grandclaudon went public about the Rafale vs. Tiffy debate - that says a LOT imho. Anyone countering that (and they have not managed it so far) would be dissing not only the man but to some extent the professonalism of the force as well. Since, nobody has come out dissing Grandclaudon, his words hold a lot of water imho. This is not PR speak from the company that manufactures the Rafale, nor is it a load of **** from an uninformed individual ala the good Col. Fornoff; Grandclaudon in many ways represents the Adla, and if he is BSing, it reflects poorly on the force. There has been no retraction, nor any thing remotely apologetic from the French officials reg. Gclaudon's comments. IIRC, the USAF was quick to disassociate itself with Fornoff.

Not to say that the Tiffy is breakfast for the Rafale, but @ the ATLC exercise the Rafale came out on top - not too unsimilar to what the Su-30s did @ Cope India 04.

Despite the hyperbole surrounding most of these MRCA candidates, let us not diss the Rafale for the sake of it - it certainly has certain features that put it ahead of the others in certain aspects. Like the M2k, it seems the French have produced a damn good fighter.

CM

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4702
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 16 May 2010 08:28

^^From the time I had started reading BR 3 years ago till the last year Rafale used to be the favourite of most here. Suddenly it went out of radar. I remember I was upset at the high cost of M2k upgrade and said some nasty things about Rafale. But don't know what happened to others, why have they dropped Rafale.

In a way only Tiffy and Raffy qualify as ideal MRCA 'cause of there medium weight. Let's see what happens!

Buying a/c like SH or Gripen which are either su 30 weight or Tejas makes no sense.

Shatack
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 55
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 22:06

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shatack » 16 May 2010 15:05

Henrik wrote:You just said it yourself! Same interview! Just because you have it printed in different magazines doesn't make it more true.

:rotfl: :rotfl:


Yes , of course datas from a highly respectable ranked active air force Pilot is nothing against a swedish fanboyo troll spewing saab comercials throught the net, nah? :rotfl:

Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2491
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 17 May 2010 09:33

Read this very interesting post on DACT.. cautioning about keeping things in proper perspective

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=1521142&postcount=609

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8263
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 17 May 2010 12:30

Manish_P wrote:Read this very interesting post on DACT.. cautioning about keeping things in proper perspective

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=1521142&postcount=609


Thanks Manish. Awesome read!

Shatack
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 55
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 22:06

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shatack » 17 May 2010 12:56

Manish_P wrote:Read this very interesting post on DACT.. cautioning about keeping things in proper perspective

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=1521142&postcount=609



Rules of engagement are the same for everyone in air combat, kill the Foe, red , blue, yellow, this blah blah is a peice of sore looser explanation, no sens!

Henrik
BRFite
Posts: 211
Joined: 10 Apr 2010 15:55
Location: Southern Sweden

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Henrik » 17 May 2010 14:19

Shatack wrote:
Henrik wrote:You just said it yourself! Same interview! Just because you have it printed in different magazines doesn't make it more true.

:rotfl: :rotfl:


Yes , of course datas from a highly respectable ranked active air force Pilot is nothing against a swedish fanboyo troll spewing saab comercials throught the net, nah? :rotfl:

Well little french fanboy, there is a reason why the brits have the saying "never trust the french"
:lol:
Last edited by Rahul M on 18 May 2010 02:33, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: irrespective of the provocation this kind of comments are not acceptable. if you have a problem with a postor, report him.

vcsekhar
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 100
Joined: 01 Aug 2009 13:27
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby vcsekhar » 17 May 2010 14:47

Wow... what an awesome response :rotfl:
Maybe you should talk to a real fighter pilot sometime to get a better idea of combat training exercises.


Shatack wrote:
Manish_P wrote:Read this very interesting post on DACT.. cautioning about keeping things in proper perspective

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=1521142&postcount=609



Rules of engagement are the same for everyone in air combat, kill the Foe, red , blue, yellow, this blah blah is a peice of sore looser explanation, no sens!

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8164
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nachiket » 17 May 2010 19:59

Manish_Sharma wrote:^^From the time I had started reading BR 3 years ago till the last year Rafale used to be the favourite of most here. Suddenly it went out of radar. I remember I was upset at the high cost of M2k upgrade and said some nasty things about Rafale. But don't know what happened to others, why have they dropped Rafale.

In a way only Tiffy and Raffy qualify as ideal MRCA 'cause of there medium weight. Let's see what happens!

Buying a/c like SH or Gripen which are either su 30 weight or Tejas makes no sense.


I think the members figured out after the prices for the Brazilian deal came out that we could not afford 126 Rafales and it made little sense to spend so much anyway. Dassault seems to have come to the same conclusion and lost interest as well.

Wickberg
BRFite
Posts: 271
Joined: 01 Jul 2008 18:45

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Wickberg » 18 May 2010 02:16

Gripen NG is now in India...

Edit: NG Demo to be precise (in case some troll would complain)

Shatack
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 55
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 22:06

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shatack » 18 May 2010 14:31

nachiket wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:^^From the time I had started reading BR 3 years ago till the last year Rafale used to be the favourite of most here. Suddenly it went out of radar. I remember I was upset at the high cost of M2k upgrade and said some nasty things about Rafale. But don't know what happened to others, why have they dropped Rafale.

In a way only Tiffy and Raffy qualify as ideal MRCA 'cause of there medium weight. Let's see what happens!

Buying a/c like SH or Gripen which are either su 30 weight or Tejas makes no sense.


I think the members figured out after the prices for the Brazilian deal came out that we could not afford 126 Rafales and it made little sense to spend so much anyway. Dassault seems to have come to the same conclusion and lost interest as well.


and they can't afford a paper plane with juicy datas not prouved neither!

Shatack
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 55
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 22:06

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shatack » 18 May 2010 14:39

Henrik wrote:[
Well little french fanboy, there is a reason why the brits have the saying "never trust the french"
:lol:


never argue with faboyos, they drags you down to thier level and beat you with experience, as about trust, nato still watch the afghan airspace to see gripens or typhoon in other place than commercial publications, each days rafales and M2k are 98% operational at acheiving thier missions, should ask to plattoons troops about where their trust goes, dude! :wink:

Image

Henrik
BRFite
Posts: 211
Joined: 10 Apr 2010 15:55
Location: Southern Sweden

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Henrik » 18 May 2010 15:06

Shatack wrote:
Henrik wrote:[
Well little french fanboy, there is a reason why the brits have the saying "never trust the french"
:lol:


never argue with faboyos, they drags you down to thier level and beat you with experience, as about trust, nato still watch the afghan airspace to see gripens or typhoon in other place than commercial publications, each days rafales and M2k are 98% operational at acheiving thier missions, should ask to plattoons troops about where their trust goes, dude! :wink

Yeah, sure, doing stuff that can be done with a Super Tucano...

shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 18 May 2010 19:49

France frets over Rafale sale to Brazil

France is mounting a last-ditch bid to prevent another fighter sale slipping from its grasp as upcoming Brazilian presidential elections threaten to spoil its hopes of winning a first foreign sale of its Rafale combat jet.


With Lula prevented from standing for re-election, some experts believe the country's next president could order a pause in negotiations or restart the lengthy process from scratch.


Brazil says it will pick one of the three by end-July as the basis for exclusive negotiations on the renewal of its fighter fleet which includes Dassault-built Mirages. However industry sources note such deadlines have been delayed in the past. "Even if the Rafale gets picked and a negotiation starts in a few days, it won't end before the handover of power," a French industry source said.


The winner is also likely to get better access to South American defence contracts and would gain a symbolic victory ahead of a much bigger contest for 126 combat planes in India, one of the most sought-after contracts in the global arms trade.


Seems like Sarkozy will have to do a lil more than just stay in Lulas good books to win this one..

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4702
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 18 May 2010 20:33

Shatack wrote:....

Shatack I would be grateful if you can provide the cost of Rafale per plane with following:
1. Upgraded M88 with 60KN drythurst.[I guess buyer has to pay royality to UAE as they are funding the upgradation]
2. RBE2 AESA [Please let me know what %age of TOT French would be willing to impart and at what price]
3. Can we have our own RWR Tarang instead of Spectra? and what would be tentative price for Spectra 5T upgradation for Rafale fleet?
4. Would it be possible for India to make last 70 Rafales out of 126 indigineously let's say 80%. With GaN Chips + AESA Software and the engines 100% here? Add the additional cost of TOT here too...

Please understand Rafale was never my favourite, but just for my education I would like to know, how much TOT and for what price we can expect it.

Carl_T
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2533
Joined: 24 Dec 2009 02:37
Location: anandasya sagare

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Carl_T » 18 May 2010 20:37

I've heard a lot about what the different missiles that this deal will give us access to like the meteor and some other names I can't remember. Question is what will happen to our SDRE Astra missile and the other missiles we use if we buy these ones.

sathyaC
BRFite
Posts: 124
Joined: 23 Mar 2010 19:34

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby sathyaC » 18 May 2010 21:29

the price for 36 Rafael is said to be 6.3$ billion is it just the fly away cost
or
is it with spears if yes, for how many years ?
does the contract include any tot ?
Is all the aircraft manufactured in France or in Brazil ?

can some of our gurus BR ans this ? pliz

shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 19 May 2010 15:23

MMRCA: A difficult choice for the IAF

it seems that the political factor is likely to influence the choice of the MMRCA more heavily than just the performance parameters. As an old fighter pilot, however, I would always pitch for a light, easily manoeuvrable, agile and relatively inexpensive fighter that delivers every time, generates high sortie rates and is easy to maintain and train on a day to day peace time schedule. What counts in war is the number of fighters one can launch every hour, every day, day after day, with full confidence and ease of operation.


Gripens the way to go..if that would be the thought process..

Pratik_S
BRFite
Posts: 325
Joined: 11 Feb 2010 21:19
Location: In the Lion's Den
Contact:

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Pratik_S » 19 May 2010 17:14

shukla wrote:MMRCA: A difficult choice for the IAF

it seems that the political factor is likely to influence the choice of the MMRCA more heavily than just the performance parameters. As an old fighter pilot, however, I would always pitch for a light, easily manoeuvrable, agile and relatively inexpensive fighter that delivers every time, generates high sortie rates and is easy to maintain and train on a day to day peace time schedule. What counts in war is the number of fighters one can launch every hour, every day, day after day, with full confidence and ease of operation.


Gripens the way to go..if that would be the thought process..


Gripen is definitely a big hit amongst pilots. IAF pilots were dying to get their hands on its simulator when SAAB brought it to Aero India in (2007 IIRC).

Another important thing mentioned in the article by the author is that all countries won't transfer key technologies without strings attached. But I don't think its applicable for the Russians considering past deals. The general idea which I get from the article is that pilots are preferring Gripen were as the govt wants the deal to go to the americans mostly for the SH.

Vishnu
BRFite
Posts: 272
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31
Location: New Delhi

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Vishnu » 19 May 2010 17:26

Gripen Demo REPORTEDLY clears Leh trials beautifully ... doing ALL routines required.
Gripen Demo REPORTEDLY clears heat trials in Adampur (I would stand corrected on location) beautifully.

Will bring in more details on this later.

Vishnu Som
Associate Editor
NDTV

Brando
BRFite
Posts: 675
Joined: 26 Feb 2008 06:18

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Brando » 19 May 2010 17:32

shukla wrote:MMRCA: A difficult choice for the IAF

it seems that the political factor is likely to influence the choice of the MMRCA more heavily than just the performance parameters. As an old fighter pilot, however, I would always pitch for a light, easily manoeuvrable, agile and relatively inexpensive fighter that delivers every time, generates high sortie rates and is easy to maintain and train on a day to day peace time schedule. What counts in war is the number of fighters one can launch every hour, every day, day after day, with full confidence and ease of operation.


Gripens the way to go..if that would be the thought process..


I think in that article the case is actually being made for the F-16. Considering that it is a proven airframe, offered with all the upgraded avionics and LM likely to get in one last big deal. Also, as he states that sortie rate, ease of training, ease of maintenance etc as being the key factors for war time, the F16 would indeed drastically help India meet all those requirements. Besides, the Israelis already have a large stable of highly customized F16s, keeping them flying even without American "approvals" won't be too hard.

Pratik_S
BRFite
Posts: 325
Joined: 11 Feb 2010 21:19
Location: In the Lion's Den
Contact:

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Pratik_S » 19 May 2010 17:36

Gripen Demo cleared Leh trials
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/05/fl ... rials.html

It would be interesting to know who else has cleared these trials.

shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 19 May 2010 17:59

Vishnu wrote:Gripen Demo REPORTEDLY clears Leh trials beautifully ... doing ALL routines required.
Gripen Demo REPORTEDLY clears heat trials in Adampur (I would stand corrected on location) beautifully.

Will bring in more details on this later.

Vishnu Som
Associate Editor
NDTV


Thanks for the update!

Nihat
BRFite
Posts: 1276
Joined: 10 Dec 2008 13:35

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Nihat » 19 May 2010 18:05

Any clue on the combat radius of the Gripen NG, if I recall correctly it was 800 Km for Gripen D.

Wickberg
BRFite
Posts: 271
Joined: 01 Jul 2008 18:45

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Wickberg » 19 May 2010 18:17

Nihat wrote:Any clue on the combat radius of the Gripen NG, if I recall correctly it was 800 Km for Gripen D.


A few numbers;

Combat radius: 1,300 Km + 30 minutes on station with A2A weapons.
Range (one-way): 2,500 Km on internal fuel
Ferry range (one-way): 4,075 Km with external fuel
Combat Radius estimate: 1,800 km with A2A weapons

http://i41.tinypic.com/29pvtd4.jpg

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4702
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 19 May 2010 18:35

It would prove MRCA farce if Gripen is chosen as it is in same class as Tejas, just a repeat of T90 - Arjun story. Criminal sabotage of indigenous product. As for F16 - how low this govt. will stoop even after US refusal to help with Naval Tejas they are buying C17s to help keep highly paid US jobs while poor farmers in this country are committing suicides. Still if MMS govt. choses to even keep SH or F16 in MRCA then...........

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 19 May 2010 18:41

Buy the Gripen and kill the paki AWACS by squeezing the Swedes on this...The US gets a big engine order to boot. It won't kill LCA IMO


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests