MRCA News and Discussion

[Srivastav]

^^ is there a vayushakti/redflag type of excercise on the cards that i havent heard about ?

[sunilpatel]

^^ is there a vayushakti/redflag type of excercise on the cards that i havent heard about ?

^^^^
Might be going to singpore...refuelling...

[shukla]

MP to support BAE radar bid

New MP in UK in gov in favour of developing EF radar to boost chances of sale to India..

Conservative Mark Menzies, who was elected to replace the retiring Michael Jack at the general election, said that developing an E-scan radar to replace the existing M-scan model for the Eurofighter Typhoon would provide a major boost to defence giant BAE Systems’ bid to land lucrative export deals.

“Whereas at the moment there is not a great deal of difference between the E-scan and M-scan at the moment, there is far more potential to develop the E-scan type. “Some critics say that a customer such as Saudi Arabia does not need such a sophisticated radar because the M-scan fulfils its requirement, but if you are spending the kind of money this kind of order costs you want to be sure you are buying the best.

“If this technology gives you the edge over the likes of the US, France or the Russians, it is a worthwhile investment.” He said there was “huge potential” for BAE to benefit from export sales with India and Japan already looking at Typhoon as a possible replacement for their existing fleets. In an interview with the Evening Post earlier this year, Kevin Taylor, managing director of BAE’s Military Air Solutions (MAS) division, said exports were a major focus of its push for sales

[shiv]

What appeared to be half a squadron of f-16s just landed here in Bangalore- first thought these were jags...

edit :a 707 tanker too

Weird stuff - I saw 2 KC 135 tankers and a C-130

[Aditya_V]

Wishful thinking here, have any F-16' Block 52, C-130J's and KC135's , B-707 been Bangalored for free. .

hmm intersting things in the City of IT Vity, nothing though 350KM east of Bangaluru, not fair.

[VishalJ]

Checkout these Beautiful Shots of the Gripen

[chiru]

^^^Vishal Jolapara please post the links posting ful images on BR is haram (BARRED)

[Dmurphy]

It might be Singapore Air Force birds on way to France. There is a small note in livefist about Singapore participating in Garuda.

It should also be noted that the Republic of Singapore Air Force would also be participating in Ex-Garuda with their F-16 Block 52 Aircraft.

So are our birds and SGP's going together in some mammoth formation?

[VishalJ]

^^^Vishal Jolapara please post the links posting ful images on BR is haram (BARRED)

It aint a Full image, its a medium-size photo, Click on it for the Larger Image !

Great Photos deserve a slightly larger forum real-estate than teenie-weenie thumbnails, larger obviously doesnt mean spamming Full-Sized Images.

[Shatack]

______________________________________________


______________________________________________

[Singha]

I hate the relatively big canards on the gripen.

[Gaur]

Shatack,
Your attempts at flamebaiting are getting too obvious.

[shukla]

Shatack,
Your attempts at flamebaiting are getting too obvious.

^^^ couldn't agree more.. Mods please do the needful.

[Ponen]

people, if you are responding to trolls, you are trolling yourself. I'm going to ignore this round of exchange but that's it. next time please report the post and DO NOT respond.
Rahul.

As Rahul wrote earlier, don't bother replying to this kind of trolling.

This is just a reminder to admin that this fella has already been warned amongst others and I'm merely suggesting that it's time to actually do something about it.

[shiv]

I hate the relatively big canards on the gripen.

You mean you have a "gripe" about them don't you?

[naird]

Cross posting from Newbie section.

Folks,


Long time back i had read an article from a USAF pilot on a blog about training between F16 and Mig 29. How the pilot observed and compared Mig 29 characteristics..It was a great read. I believe it was a excercise between Luftwaffe and USAF ...

Can somebody please provide me the link for the article ?

Thanks

[Wickberg]

Cross posting from Newbie section.

Folks,


Long time back i had read an article from a USAF pilot on a blog about training between F16 and Mig 29. How the pilot observed and compared Mig 29 characteristics..It was a great read. I believe it was a excercise between Luftwaffe and USAF ...

Can somebody please provide me the link for the article ?

Thanks

How is this relevant in a MRCA thread? A training taking part some 15 years ago with two aircrafts that is´nt even in the MRCA-race? If you want to I can post some quotes from the Finnish air force about exercises between Draken and MiG-21, that is equally relevant I suppose...

[arthuro]

>> According to many various sources in swiss most renowed news papers now, the rafale is ahead of the technical evaluation is switzerland and is favored by the pilot over the gripen and the typhoon...

Switzerland slips slowly towards the Rafale
Aeroplans , June 8


According to the Swiss press, the head of the Federal Department of Defence should finally propose the purchase of a first tranche of a dozen fighter planes instead of the 22 originally envisaged. In this country confront the Eurofighter, the Gripen and of course the Rafale. For several months, the maneuvers are increasing and the EADS fighter visibly loses ground against the two other planes.

http://www.aeroplans.fr/Aviation-mil...he-rafale.html

Quote:
Tiger replacement issue soon in the Parliament
Neue Zurcher Zeitung , May 29


[...]Dassault has repeatedly said to be the “aeronautical winner” of the evaluation and referred to the offered cooperation opportunities. The French air space is open to the Swiss Air Force for training. The same applies to airfields and Rafale Simulators. And the Swiss side wanted to participate as a project team on the further development of the jet. It is known that the French product enjoys much sympathy in the Air force.
[...]

http://www.nzz.ch/nachrichten/schwei...1.5822193.html

Ueli Maurer wants to stagger the purchase of fighter
Le Temps , June 6


In a new report submitted in June the Federal Council, the Head of the Department of Defense propose the purchase of a first tranche of a dozen aircraft
[...]

This purchase by tranches could be decisive as regards of the choice of the aircraft. The supplier should be able to secure new supplies and steady development over several decades. By opting for a phased acquisition beyond 2020 "it's no longer the replacement of the Tiger that is anticipated but well and truly the F/A-18 , it will take place around 2025, one said in parliament.


The gradual renewal of the Swiss fleet would automatically exclude a new assessment, so a U.S. offer.

But other models could not meet the collateral requirements beyond fifteen years. "With this installment purchase program, the Swedish Gripen is the one which offers the lowest long-term guarantees," said one aviation expert by emphasizing its less advanced technology. What strongly deny the Swedes. They ensure that their country has opted for the Gripen as the main component of its air force, so the future is assured. Furthermore, Switzerland would have access to technologies of the new generation that had not been submitted in April 2009

In any case, the final answer will come off only after the political return in September or October. But Ueli Maurer can already count on the support of the President of the Confederation and Minister of Economy, Doris Leuthard. In February, she had already proposed a purchase by tranche. Manufacturers of machinery and equipment, Swissmem, had exercised upon her a powerful lobby, making it sparkle 2.2 billion in business compensatory and technological spillovers.

Leuthard even spoke, last winter, about "an economic recovery plan" with this acquisition. Ueli Maurer, who met with the Defence Ministers of the three countries in line to provide future aircraft, was impressed by the possibilities of acquiring new technologies. We know that the Swiss Air Force, at least the pilots, bend to the Dassault Rafale, which, besides the possibility to use French airspace, promises to associate the Swiss to future developments.


But is buying new jets justified to only give a boost to the economy? The transaction remains expensive despite the salami considered by Ueli Maurer. The bill of 2.2 billion francs for 22 jets, long discussed, consisted in reality that the acquisition of "naked" aircraft , without armament, missile-related devices, pilot training, the cost of maintenance, etc..
[...]
Finance Minister Hans-Rudolf Merz, had put the replacement of Tiger on the list of abandoned projects as part of its savings program. We must ensure that the replacement F-5E will not be on the back of the troops, still poorly equipped. The parliament, but the army officers, are far from convinced that the 33 F/A-18 are not sufficient to provide air policing tasks. "we don't need more planes , but we need more collaborative arrangements with neighboring Austria, and German or French" said National Assembly member Eric Voruz (PS / VD), a member of the Policy Commission security. In fact, the shift from Ueli Maurer today betrays its weakness against his party, the UDC, and the rest of the Federal Council, the National Councillor J. Green Josef Lang

http://letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/e58dc49a...ions_de_combat


Hervé morin interview (french mindef) ...For the record.

You never miss an opportunity to be the "sales representative" of the French armament industry for export. What about the record of the purchase of the Rafale by Brazil and negotiations with the UAE and Switzerland?

We are confident. The Brazilians have announced a decision around May 15. The discussions are progressing constructively with the UAE. Switzerland, meanwhile, has completed its trials, and I do not doubt that the results are extremely favorable to the Rafale. I suggested to our Swiss friends to benefit from our air space , because theirs is limited , and offered them facilities on the Luxeuil airbase. We might even have a common maintenance on the aircrafts.
[...]

An older post from secret defense blog by J.D. Merchet went in the same direction. funny that those kind of competitions are so long as you could replace 2009 by 2010 or perhaps 2011 in this article !

2009 should be a year of the rafale

2009 should be the year of first export contract for the Rafale. The UAE should confirm their orders this year, announced in April 2008, 60 combat aircraft Dassault-Aviation. Deliveries would take place from 2012-14. In return, the Emirates will ask France to take the 60 Mirage 2000-9, that Paris is ready to accept but the exact formula is not yet known. However, it seems inconceivable that the french Air Force would get it back.These aircrafts will be offered on the international market opportunity, but it is a very good aircraft, the most modern of all the Mirage 2000, better equipped than the french 2000-5 for example. So much so that he might be a serious competitor ... for the Rafale.

For other export markets, the situation is more blurred. Libya has promised to buy 14 Rafale, but the process of decision in Tripoli does not obey very rational rules . Brazil is in line for about forty rafales, with fairly good prospects. Things are more complicated in India because the country is close from the United States and could, therefore, favor the F-18. In Europe, both countries are concerned: Switzerland, where the Rafale is far ahead of its two competitors (Eurofighter and Gripen) in the eyes of the military at least, and Greece. But the country is experiencing a financial crisis and social change that would delay deadlines.

[Kartik]

Cross posting from Newbie section.

Folks,


Long time back i had read an article from a USAF pilot on a blog about training between F16 and Mig 29. How the pilot observed and compared Mig 29 characteristics..It was a great read. I believe it was a excercise between Luftwaffe and USAF ...

Can somebody please provide me the link for the article ?

Thanks

I have a word document to an article that a US pilot who flew against the MiG-29 of the Bulgarian AF wrote. MiG-29 fans will love that article, and what it does make clear is that with new generation avionics, radar, weapons and more internal fuel, a MiG-29 UPG (like that of the IAF) and the MiG-35 will be a devil in air-to-air combat. I could post the text to the full article if mods don't have any issue.

[Indranil]

Self deleted: Purpose served!

[naird]

Kartik, If you could post that in the NEWB section also it would be great !!!! It dont want to side track MRCA thread !!! Thanks Much !!

Mods pllllllleeeeeeeeaaaasssseeeee let Kartik post the article.

[Manish_Sharma]

^^^^ Kartik, I would love to read the article. Can you please forward it to me at ixnxdxrxaxnxixlxrx@xgxmxaxixl (remove the x-s). Thanks in advance!

Indranil, could you forward Kartik's email to me also? I have alread sent you my email.

[Devesh Rawal]

From ILA 2010, Fligtglobal update on EADS offering on the Typhoon to India:

Diehl BGT Defence and EADS are offering Germany's Hope and Hosbo glide weapons to potential buyers, including as part of a proposed Eurofighter Typhoon package for the Indian air force.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... paign.html

This is the wikipedia page on HOPE:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOPE/HOSBO

This is the first time I heard of this munition. Is it similar to a US JDAM? Reading on Diehl, it looks like they are already a major player in India, having supplied subsystems for Arjun MBT. Diehl also makes the IRIS-T, which would be in any Typhoon package, I guess. Any opinions on IRIS-T vs AA-11?

[NRao]

So much for "ToT".

Moksha in sight?

New MoD policy to boost Indian arms industry

The new Defence Production Policy is rooted in the MoD's realisation that its longstanding acquisition model of building weaponry in India, through Transfer of Technology (ToT), has failed to generate indigenisation. Real indigenisation, the MoD now believes, comes from designing weaponry, not just manufacturing foreign designs.

[vcsekhar]

Here you go. It was an arcticle on the code one magazine site.
http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives ... 2a_95.html

Cross posting from Newbie section.

Folks,


Long time back i had read an article from a USAF pilot on a blog about training between F16 and Mig 29. How the pilot observed and compared Mig 29 characteristics..It was a great read. I believe it was a excercise between Luftwaffe and USAF ...

Can somebody please provide me the link for the article ?

Thanks

[Philip]

One must remember that the Swiss enjoyed operating the Mirage-3 aeons ago and Franco-Swiss relations are pretty good.It would be a boost for the Rafale in the Brazilian contest if the Swiss give the Rafale the nod,especially as the French offer of N-sub tech to Brazil might be part of the whole package.

Unless we start afresh with engine development across the board for the three services,we are going to be plagued with this gaping weakness in our defence industry.India is great when it comes to brainpower-software,but for raw tech,for the better part,we are decades behind the most advanced nations.The GTRE has been an absolute failure despited ecades of work and money spent,let's acknowledge the fact and trying to salvage some part of the Kaveri fiasco by developing a naval gas turbine variant is tangential to the main objective,developing aero-engines fo the IAF.We cannot even develop an engine for our basic trainer or IJT! This is a massive gaping hole in our tech capabilities,which makes us always beholden to foreign manufacturers.A focussed drive towards engine tech self-sufficiency should be initiated which has massibve employment opportunities for our youth given the large number of aircraft to be produced,both fixed wing and helos,not to mention micro-engines for UCAVs.

[Singha]

ET:-

Berlin: European aerospace consortium Eurofighter GmbH will submit its bid price this month for hard-selling 126 of its advanced fourth generation fighters to the Indian Air Force (IAF), a top consortium official said Wednesday.

Eurofighter completed the field evaluation trials of its medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) Typhoon in April.

"We are submitting our bid to the Indian government for the IAF order later this month. The flight trials of the supersonic strike fighter have been successfully completed in two phases, which began in February," Eurofighter chief executive Enzo Casolini told IANS here.

[shukla]

^^^ add on to above..

EADS going full throttle..

EADS Defence and Security plans Centre of Competence in India

The fate of its campaign to bag the multi-billion dollar contract for Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft notwithstanding, European consortium EADS Defence and Security (DS) wants to develop a competence centre in India for its global market. EADS DS fielded the Eurofighter Typhoon to compete with five other manufacturers for the 126 fighter aircraft Indian Air Force wants. Last month, IAF completed flight evaluation trials. The five other aircraft in the race include F-16 and F/A-18 (USA) Rafale (France), Grippen (Sweden) and MiG35 (Russian).

“We want to develop a centre of competence and develop a product that can cater even for our global and European market,” EADS DS Chief Executive Officer Stefan Zoller told a group of correspondents from India at the Berlin Air Show, which marks its centenary year. As part of expanding its footprint in India, it created EADS DS India Private Limited as a primary contact point of all its customers there. The R&D Centre at Bangalore began by recruiting eight engineers to work on electronic scan for radar and another set of five engineers for Eurofighter.

The EADS DS officials said the target is to have 250-odd engineers and initially use the Airbus facility available in India. EADS has existing partnerships with Defence Research and Development Organisation and Defence Avionics Research Establishment and is supporting the Light Combat Aircraft programme. Last year, EADS came in for LCA flight test work and recently was asked if it could assist in LCA naval version programme.

Eurofighter displays cockpit demonstrator at Berlin air show

Leading European aerospace consortium Eurofighter GmbH showcased its Eurofighter cockpit demonstrator and a replica of its Typhoon medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) along with its powerful EJ200 engines at the Berlin international air show (ILA 2010) here.

[Juggi G]

Eurofighter to Quote Price for IAF Order

[parshuram]

Eurofighter to Quote Price for IAF Order

Juggi G .. Could this be the case that only those fighters whom IAF had asked to submit price tags, Euro fighter is submitting the cost or this goes for all contenders ... Just out of wild curiosity

[Austin]

ACM Tyag was quoted in an old interview to FORCE mag that Eurofighter would be an expensive plane to buy although it was a good aircraft.

[Juggi G]

parshuram ... I think this goes for all contenders, with Eurofighter being the first One to submit price tags.

[NRao]

One must remember that the Swiss enjoyed operating the Mirage-3 aeons ago and Franco-Swiss relations are pretty good.It would be a boost for the Rafale in the Brazilian contest if the Swiss give the Rafale the nod,especially as the French offer of N-sub tech to Brazil might be part of the whole package.

Unless we start afresh with engine development across the board for the three services,we are going to be plagued with this gaping weakness in our defence industry.India is great when it comes to brainpower-software,but for raw tech,for the better part,we are decades behind the most advanced nations.The GTRE has been an absolute failure despited ecades of work and money spent,let's acknowledge the fact and trying to salvage some part of the Kaveri fiasco by developing a naval gas turbine variant is tangential to the main objective,developing aero-engines fo the IAF.We cannot even develop an engine for our basic trainer or IJT! This is a massive gaping hole in our tech capabilities,which makes us always beholden to foreign manufacturers.A focussed drive towards engine tech self-sufficiency should be initiated which has massibve employment opportunities for our youth given the large number of aircraft to be produced,both fixed wing and helos,not to mention micro-engines for UCAVs.

Sponsor + cosign on this post.

Just one small observation though. A "focussed drive" will HAVE to involve building a humongous database based on research at a very granular level. One way is to "take your time" (as in decades - which is what the others have done) or "parallel compute" - have many Indian universities conduct research in parallel.

Either one will need FUNDS - which India today has plenty of (and IF Indian politicians can detox themselves and squirrel away less that much the better).

[Anthony Hines]

Looks like there is something in the works to change rules to accommodate Indian concerns on End use etc..

http://www.livemint.com/2010/06/0812475 ... s.html?h=B

[Jamal K. Malik]

EADS offers to create 20,000 jobs in India

[Craig Alpert]

^^

Sorry for being a bit OT, but when one clicks on the above link, it says "News By Industry Sponsored by BOEING" right in the HEADING in the Center of the top page.... Boeing pays for publishing EADS news

[Kartik]

Boeing is willing to let Japan develop a new variant of the Shornet. Not directly related to MRCA competition, but rather one of the competitors so posting it here. Also clearly indicates that ToT and licence building fees are not small figures..for a large order it may make sense but for a smallish 40-50 aircraft order, the cost will be quite high so its pretty sure that whoever will win Japan's F-X competition will end up winning the F-XX as well..
Japan's labour cost is quite high and it had a rather unhappy experience with the F-2 where it ended up being costlier than the F-15DJ.

Regarding KFX-1, the South Korean 4.5 generation fighter that they're studying right now, apparently Indonesia is interested in partnering..Sweden's Saab was interested and now Boeing says they're like to partner it as well..the key reason being export potential.

Unless DRDO/ADA/HAL tie up with a foreign OEM for the AMCA, we might as well forget any exports for that fighter because the Indian entities are almost solely focused on the Indian armed forces.

Also, a foreign OEM of international repute will be a huge benefit in keeping a lid on IAF's demands that may be too ambitious..the LCA project is a case in point. When ADA said something the IAF didn't listen but when BAe experts said the same, the IAF kept quiet and dropped its demand (for instance, the IAF's insistence on a totally separate back-up to the quad redundant flight computer that would've taken another 2 years to develop).

Boeing willing to let Japan develop new deriviative of F/A-18
By Leithen Francis

Boeing, which is proposing the F/A-18E/F for Japan's forthcoming FX fighter competition, would be willing to let the nation develop its manufacturing capability through the joint development of a new derivative of the Super Hornet.

If Japan wanted to further develop the Super Hornet, by coming up with a new derivative, then Boeing would respond positively, says Defense, Space and Security vice-president for international business development Mark Kronenberg.

"We would want to come up with a package that helps them with their aspirations," he adds.

Japan has yet to issue a request for proposals for the FX competition, but plans to buy 40-50 fighters to replace some of its McDonnell Douglas F-4s.

In the early 1990s, Lockheed Martin worked with Japanese industry to develop the Mitsubishi F-2, a derivative of its F-16, but US law-makers at the time blocked it from transferring some technology.

But Kronenberg says technology transfer, with regards to Japan, is less of an issue today.

In the 1980s and early 1990s, Japan seemed to be "20ft tall", because the country's corporations were buying so many businesses overseas, but times have changed and US law-makers are now less wary of it, he says.

When asked if it is feasible to manufacture 40-50 fighters in Japan under licence, Kronenberg says: "It depends on how much you want to pay to get that new manufacturing capability. I think Japan is willing to pay." He adds that Tokyo's long-term objective is to have the technological and manufacturing capability to develop its own fighter.

Some industry observers predict that whichever company wins the FX competition is also likely to win in a subsequent FXX requirement. This is likely to seek over 100 fighters to replace some of Japan's older Boeing F-15s.

In a separate development, Japan's nearest neighbour South Korea announced in January that it is studying whether to develop an indigenous fighter.

Its government says that if it decides to proceed, completion of the first aircraft would be in 2021.

Boeing would also be interested in assisting Seoul with its KFX indigenous fighter programme "if it was part of a long-term path", says Kronenberg.

"We would rather partner in significant markets like Korea rather than compete," he says.

Maybe longer-term some F-15SE technology could be applied, he adds. The South Korean already operates F-15Ks.

link

[ramana]

Won't the drop in Euro reduce the Eurofighter price?

[Indranil]

I have a word document to an article that a US pilot who flew against the MiG-29 of the Bulgarian AF wrote. MiG-29 fans will love that article, and what it does make clear is that with new generation avionics, radar, weapons and more internal fuel, a MiG-29 UPG (like that of the IAF) and the MiG-35 will be a devil in air-to-air combat. I could post the text to the full article if mods don't have any issue.

Thanks a lot Kartik for sharing such an interesting read. It is refreshingly different to hear from a pilot. Their perspective is so different, i.e. critically operational. Sometimes makes me feel like a fool discussing all the gizmos. It would need years behind the stick to say that the Block 30 is the F-16 to fly!

His observation was so astute. It is often so difficult to accept, but the difference between the Mig-29 and the F-16 block-30 was just the legs!

Coming back to the MRCA, with all the competitors so closely pitched against each other, I feel in the same hands, a 1-on-1 with any of these fighters will be quite neutral. It might very well come down to who has to break away first! However a 4-on-5 or 3-on-5 will be lopsided towards the team of 5 even if the plane they are flying would be slightly weaker on specs. That's why I favour the Gripen NG or the Mig-35.

Get the numbers. It is critical. And our adversary already has the numbers. Just my thoughts.

[Vipul]

European fighters become 25% cheaper.