MRCA News and Discussion

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 08 Jul 2010 11:03

EADS campaign gathers momentum.

We are entering into a security partnership with India: German envoy

‘We have decided that we wanted to enter into a real security partnership with India. It’s not a by-a-client relationship but security partners with four native countries with the cutting edge technology for the next 20-30 years to come. So, it goes way beyond a commercial relationship,’ he added.

Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company, said they had a successful meeting with the IAF and he is hopeful of encouraging response from the Indian Ministry of Defence within a few weeks.

We have official request from the Indian Air Force, from the Indian MoD (Ministry of Defence), in particular, for the so-called multi-role capabilities. So, on the one side, to have the air to air to capabilities and on the other side, to have the air to ground capabilities and that is what the Euro fighter is fulfilling. First topic is that India is asking as well for technology transfer and I believe that they are interested as well in the new technology in the fighter business,’ Gerwert added. If the IAF approves and the Defence Ministry decides to buy this highly modern and futuristic aircraft, then it would be the fifth production base for the Euro fighter along with Germany, Spain, Italy and Britain.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 09 Jul 2010 00:05

Thales develops 'cloud' concept for Rafale radar technologies

link
DATE:08/07/10
SOURCE:Flight International

Thales reveals 'cloud' concept for Rafale radar technologies
By Craig Hoyle

Thales has revealed the first details of its new technology roadmap for the Dassault Rafale's radar and electronic warfare systems, which it believes could create opportunities to equip several other aircraft types over the next 20 years.

The new concept allows for the insertion of future technologies, such as gallium nitride transmit/receive modules, by using a so-called "cloud" architecture, says Pierre-Yves Chaltiel, head of electronic combat systems for Thales Airborne Systems.

Likely to be available within the next several years, the new T/R modules would enable Thales to reduce the depth of the antenna on the Rafale's RBE2 active electronically scanned array radar. Within a period of 10-12 years, it could also allow additional sensors to be embedded elsewhere within an aircraft's structure to enhance its overall sensor coverage.

The advance would also deliver increases in processing power, bandwidth capability and electronic counter-countermeasures characteristics, Thales claims.

For the Rafale, Chaltiel says a key benefit of the "cloud" concept would be to allow technologies to be added without having to re-qualify all the software used in the fighter's radar and Spectra EW packages. "The key is the systems knowledge - the processing power coupled with the radar and overall aircraft integration," he says.


The same technology could also be adopted for use by maritime patrol aircraft and airborne early warning platforms, or even offered as part of future mid-life upgrades for the Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen under a possible co-operation agreement with other European radar manufacturers, Chaltiel believes. "Thales is ready and open for co-operation," he says.

French industry and the nation's DGA defence procurement agency have made combined investments worth over €1 billion ($1.2 billion) in sensor development for the Rafale over the last decade or so, and Chaltiel confirms that the nation is "already working on advanced technology demonstrators for the future".

Meanwhile, Thales will in August deliver the first of three production-standard AESA RBE2 arrays to the defence ministry to support test activities with the Rafale. The new sensor will enter squadron service in 2012 as part of France's December 2009 order for a fourth tranche of 60 Rafales.


"The system is far different, in range and capacity of intercept in a multi-threat environment," Chaltiel says.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby ManuJ » 09 Jul 2010 02:07

rohitvats wrote:Even my neighborhood dhobi knows that next war is going to be fought in mountains and remain confined to mountains - the fact that Himalayas run from Ladakh to Arunachal Pradesh is a small coincidence... :roll:

Your dhobhi must be one smart fella, because my dhobhi certainly doesn't know his geography that well! Btw, does he know about Jammu, Rajasthan and Gujarat?

We need to realize the implications, apart from the ones for the MRCA selection -

The fact that India has virtually ruled out a full-out conflict with Pakistan in the near future. Also, India believes that a major conflict with China is imminent (within the next decade). India's defense setup is slowly but surely gravitating towards building up anti-China capabilities, and the old obsession with Pakistan is ending. How many IA officers (or for that matter, our own BRFites) have dreamt of the next war being fought to bifurcate Pakistan?

The closeness of Indo-US strategic ties. Are they improving so dramatically and so suddenly because India has credible intelligence of a major Chinese aggression in the near future? The last time India and US were that close was around 1962.

Does the Army's reluctance to invest in a new armored platform (Arjun) along with infrastructure build-up in the plains and desert needed to support that platform stem from this realization and from the consequent urgent need to invest heavily in mountain troops, weaponry and infrastructure?

Etc. etc.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 09 Jul 2010 02:15

Any land that is gained across IB is usually exchanged after ceasefire, like the last two times. The land so gained is for bargaining during negotiations following the ceasefire. However, in "disputed" areas, like J&K and across the LAC with china, one holds on to their gains. Hence, gaining more in these areas, while offering a strong defence in the plains to negate any enemy advantage seems to be the strategy of our forces. If I remember right, Brig Ray had mentioned something along those lines too.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Luxtor » 09 Jul 2010 05:05

ManuJ wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Even my neighborhood dhobi knows that next war is going to be fought in mountains and remain confined to mountains - the fact that Himalayas run from Ladakh to Arunachal Pradesh is a small coincidence... :roll:

Your dhobhi must be one smart fella, because my dhobhi certainly doesn't know his geography that well! Btw, does he know about Jammu, Rajasthan and Gujarat?

We need to realize the implications, apart from the ones for the MRCA selection -

The fact that India has virtually ruled out a full-out conflict with Pakistan in the near future. Also, India believes that a major conflict with China is imminent (within the next decade). India's defense setup is slowly but surely gravitating towards building up anti-China capabilities, and the old obsession with Pakistan is ending. How many IA officers (or for that matter, our own BRFites) have dreamt of the next war being fought to bifurcate Pakistan?

The closeness of Indo-US strategic ties. Are they improving so dramatically and so suddenly because India has credible intelligence of a major Chinese aggression in the near future? The last time India and US were that close was around 1962.

Does the Army's reluctance to invest in a new armored platform (Arjun) along with infrastructure build-up in the plains and desert needed to support that platform stem from this realization and from the consequent urgent need to invest heavily in mountain troops, weaponry and infrastructure?

Etc. etc.


Even if there is a war between India and China in the next 10 to 20 years, you can't expect the Pakis to sit idly by and not do anything. The temptation for them to try and attack India while we have our hands full would be overwhelming. The Pukis will attack even if the Chinese ask them not to get involved. As you put it "the old obsession" with Pakistan was a valid one in the past, present and future. Anyone who says don't worry about the Pakistanis and just worry about the Chinese is being naive. The Army's past reluctance to accept Arjun MBT has nothing to do with them thinking that they are not going to fight Pakistan. The Army knows full well it is most likely to fight the Pukis in the future just as much as fighting the Chinese. The Army has ordered more than 1,500 (I think),T90 tanks from Russia, does this sound like that they don't think that they'll fight a tank war in the plains against the Pukis?

(Admins and all, sorry to keep this discussion going in the MRCA thread, maybe we should move this to the "Are We Ready for a Two-Front War" thread).

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 09 Jul 2010 05:16

It's so pleasing to see EADS's campaign gathering momentum, especially at this crucial juncture.. It's media campaign seems probably the best so far followed closely by boieng and LM. Their trump card has always been making India a part of the consortium and they've used it well. Opening up a hub in Bangalore for research in aerospace and defense, creating close to 20000 local jobs..demonstrates it's serious intentions in making India a 'partner' in true sense of the word. Their claims that the purpose of the Indian hub is partnership and search for cheap labour might be seemingly true but the timing of announcements seems to be meticulously planned rather than purely co-incidental. They won't fail to use this, as a tool, to brag about their seriousness in creating a true partnership.

In contrast, Dassault's campaign seems low key at best. They almost seem content at bagging the mirage upgrade contract. Almost seem satisfied with preventing India from going to look at other options for the upgrade. Sarkozy had stepped in at that point and ensured that price would be to india's liking. Nicholas Sarkozy is the man to watch. He did a stellar job to woo the Brazilians. His likely visit in July could prove the turning point in France's campaign.

The shortlist will be so keenly anticipate. It will be interesting to see if one of the shortlist doesn't make the shortlist and it's implications, the ones that do make the shortlist however, will be in a mad scramble....

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 09 Jul 2010 12:36

this thread has debated the technical merits to death, perhaps its time to move to the political ones? the EADS 'promise' above has a lot of possibilities, if played right, it works beneficially from an industrial and geopolitical sense

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Jul 2010 12:46

dassault systems, eads and airbus has small engg centers in blr. nowhere near 20k jobs though.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 09 Jul 2010 13:32

ManuJ wrote:
Your dhobhi must be one smart fella, because my dhobhi certainly doesn't know his geography that well! Btw, does he know about Jammu, Rajasthan and Gujarat?

We need to realize the implications, apart from the ones for the MRCA selection -

The fact that India has virtually ruled out a full-out conflict with Pakistan in the near future. Also, India believes that a major conflict with China is imminent (within the next decade). India's defense setup is slowly but surely gravitating towards building is up anti-China capabilities, and the old obsession with Pakistan is ending. How many IA officers (or for that matter, our own BRFites) have dreamt of the next war being fought to bifurcate Pakistan?

The closeness of Indo-US strategic ties. Are they improving so dramatically and so suddenly because India has credible intelligence of a major Chinese aggression in the near future? The last time India and US were that close was around 1962.

Does the Army's reluctance to invest in a new armored platform (Arjun) along with infrastructure build-up in the plains and desert needed to support that platform stem from this realization and from the consequent urgent need to invest heavily in mountain troops, weaponry and infrastructure?

Etc. etc.


1. The allusion to dhobi analogy was to highlight that everyone and his aunt knows about the threat from China - more so the Indian Armed Forces. It is only now that political establishment has started acting on the recommendations of the Armed Forces...so, one does not need that article to reach that conclusion.

2. The buil-up against China is not a commentary on the position of the Armed Forces vis-a-vis Pakistan - to do that would be really stupid. Also, the fact that we're not talking about splitting TSPA along the RYK-Hyderabad axis does not mean that we don't intend to inflict very heavy and debilitating losses on the PA - there are many ways to skin the cat. In cae you've been following the reports on the contours of next Indo-Pak shooting match, the discussion veers around degrading the fighting potential of PA.

3. as explained in the point 2 above, the build-up against China is in addition to the existing force structure - bulk of which remains committed to the TSPA front. Interestingly, the formations to be raised against China (like dedicated Mountain Strike Corps+divisions in Northern Sector), may well end up on Western front in case of Indo-Pak shooting match.

4. As for Arjun saga and relation to Mechanizatio plans of IA, well, sir, please go through the Armored Discussion Thread and you'll find the reason. But notwithstanding that, IA still wants ~4,000 MBT....and as and when the Cold Start Doctrine starts getting implemented..this number will go up further.

5. Leh trials - more informed maulanas can tell you that IAF has operated fighters off and on from Leh - MiG-23 were the first to be successfully deployed in the AFB. These trials in Leh are not an indication of increased threat from China - but a threat, which is "existent in being". After all, PAF operated fighters from Skardu. So, there is no genius in that.

Hope this helps in clearing the issue.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby arthuro » 09 Jul 2010 17:14

Interview :

Captain Romain: Rafale pilot in Afghanistan

Ring , july 5


Captain Romain, you have served in Afghanistan with the Rafale. In real operations, what are the qualities of the aircraft? What does it bring to you in situations of stress ?

In real operation, the Rafale pilot enjoys first the interoperability of its data connection (called Link 16), which allows him to easily find an eye contact [visual] on other planes and especially tankers. In an environment where the rule is “seing and avoiding”, it is very important ...
The autonomy of our new aircraft make undeniably a contribution: we can stay longer in support of the troops who seek our assistance.
For a infantryman in the heart of Afghanistan, it is not a detail if he knows he can count on us for a long time... This winter, we will be equipped with a laser designation pod [Damocles] which we will enable us to inform from the air the troops on the ground about their environment or to gain autonomy if we had to rescue them.


Do the preparation and the execution of a mission with Rafale differ from those with an aircraft like the Mirage 2000?

The preparation and the execution of a mission with a Rafale does not differ, though everything is easier and safer for the Rafale aircrew, thanks to the plane: to have two engines instead of one, it counts, in France and in operation, it is much safer.


In such a complex machine in terms of technology, what are the aids to maintenance? What is the availability rate of the aircraft in comparison with the Mirage 2000 also present in Afghanistan?

Maintenance is computerized and is done very quickly and very effectively:
In 12 months of presence in Afghanistan, the Rafale has canceled only one mission because of a technical problem, which is really very good in terms of availability...


You mention in your book the obsession about fratricide or fatal shooting on population. In a theater of operations like Afghanistan where the Taliban are closely mixed with the population, the firing of weapons seems to be impossible. What are the procedures to be observed by a pilot? And does he have the right to refuse to deliver his weapons if he judges that the situation requires it?

I can not reveal here the rules of engagement that we are required to follow in Afghanistan.
What is certain is on one side our rules of engagement prevent this kind of disaster and on the other side crews are very careful not to commit the irreparable.


Your squadron participated Red Flag in 2008, in order to prepare the French air forces in tactical interoperability. Were you present? What did you retain from this exercise?

Our allies were clearly amazed by our new GPS-powered bomb (called AASM for Armement Air-Sol Modulaire ), our autonomy and our total versatility.


In a video debriefing, Col. Terrence Fornof clearly stated that the Rafale did not really involve during this exercice but have especially scanned other aircraft emissions.
Any clarification on this?


http://canadadefencesovereignty.blog...-critique.html
Red Flag is the absolute dream for a French fighter pilot. To think only one second that a French pilot might have a chance to participate without a total commitment is just proof of ignorance of our frame of mind.


Before this exercise , a detachment went on the Luke airbase in Arizona. A SIRPA [French army information and public relations service] video shows some F-16 in bad shape. US pilots were very impressed by the aggressiveness of the Rafale in dogfight. An officer praised the men and the aircraft with an unambiguous term: "outstanding". Beyond political differences between governments, it seems there are very strong ties beween French and US pilots. What do you think ?

Our nations are linked by history: we are the first U.S. allies.
In the end, beyond nationalities, the same passion animates all fighter pilots. And as this job is our favorite talking point, bonds are always promptly formed .


After the Dubai Airshow in 2009, an exercise called Advanced Tactical Leadership Course (ATLC) opposed, for the first time, the most modern aircrafts at Al Dhafra. Informations have filtered about the results and they are very surprising about the capabilities of the Rafale. Surprising because the habit is rather to hear or read in the French press unflattering remarks about the French aircraft. How to interpret this phenomenon?

An exercise like ATLC is a litmus test for aircraft, crews and mechanics. Leaning on men who serve, the Rafale has shown in this exercise all its combat effectiveness.
France has a great aeronautical history, it is normal that we produce excellent aircraft and it is clearly the case with the Rafale.


Let’s talk now about the results of this exercise. Your squadron commander speaks of " to have put sheets" to the British participants equipped with Eurofighter with a ratio of 7 victories for 1 defeat, with degraded armament on the side of the Rafale. What is called degraded armament and which were the rules of engagement?

During an ATLC engagement, 2 Rafale engaged, using their whole system but simulating a weapon that requires taking more risk than normal, 4 Eurofighter. The 2 Rafale killed the 4 Typhoon which used all their normal capacities, without loss.
The rules of engagement were "beyond visual range".

(For the experts, the Rafale had then simulated the use of a semi-active missile while the missile normally used by the Rafale is an active missile, which allows to take cover more quickly after a shot.)


What are the differences between the two weapon systems, whether in terms of sensors and situation awareness for the pilot?

All have always dreamed of hundreds of Mirage F1 and Mirage 2000 pilots became reality in the Rafale. It is the result of a long common adventure between Dassault and the French Air Force. The Rafale is the culmination of decades of experience in military aviation.

Finally, the Rafale fighter is a very complete aircraft:

The rafale is extremely maneuvering and thus awesome in dogfight. For example, confronted with a Eurofighter, engaged in a within visual range combat with a neck to neck start, we know we need a few dozens of seconds to validate a 'gun kill'.

In BVR air combat (beyond visual range, ie at ranges of several dozens of kilometers), the Rafale system provides synthetic information coming from multiple sensors. This information is therefore more accurate. We can do without 1 or 2 sensors during a whole combat while remaining extremely dangerous for the enemy. This gives us access to new tactics of particular interest.

And with an greater extension than the previous generation aircraft, the Rafale carries twice more air-ground weapons.

The AASM, the new auto-powered GPS French bomb, gives a Rafale the ability to replace several Mirage while being more efficient and taking less risk.
The Eurofighter is a plane built for aerial combat and it fares worse than the Rafale, which is a versatile aircraft (air combat, bombing, reconnaissance).

And about the aerodynamic capabilities of French plane?

Dassault has a know-how which is at the forefront of what is done worldwide in matter of combat aircraft, thanks to its latest Mirage. This expertise can not be decreed, it is maintained.


The most impressive part of the ATLC is the confrontation between members of your squadron and the American F-22 Raptor, described by all observers as a kind of ultimate air weapon, largely in advance on all levels, without rival. Little information filtered about the Franco-American face to face. Why have Americans restricted the battle to “gun pass” only and what were the carrying configuration of the 2 aircrafts?

What is certain is that limiting a close-combat to a combat gun only, it does not really make sense today: even very close to another aircraft and face-to-face, our infrared Mica missiles are able to destroy their target.
So, during various combat gun against the Raptor, the Rafale has had many opportunities to shoot Mica IR, unannounced as not being a part of the framework agreed by the Americans for these engagements. Both planes were smooth.


What told you your colleagues about the US fighter? What represents such an advanced aircraft for you?

The Rafale is a very successful aircraft which does not need its radar to fight “beyond visual range”.It's a plane with which everything is easy, probably the masterpiece of Dassault.
The Raptor is a beautiful plane, but the Rafale is clearly an excellent choice for France.


An Emirati Mirage 2000-9 piloted by a French did a gun pass on an F-22. This would give reason to Eric Gerard [former Rafale solo display pilot] when he said that thrust vectoring is not useful in combat. You are talking about close air combat as a random exercise, subject to factors independant of the qualities of the aircraft. What do you mean?

In a close combat, one teaches that "sight is life." Indeed, if we see a little too late the other aircraft, the battle may be lost before it started.
To have the "tally" (i see another plane) in time is a random exercise even with the sight of a fighter pilot: aircraft approach each other at about 2000 km/h and the other aircraft may also come from the sun ... This is an example, there are other random factors.

Finally, i think that Eric Gerard is right to say that the thrust vectoring is useless: we noted it.


You have a unique instrument known as front sector optronics. What is this tool and which benefits can you use in air combat?

This is a camera equipped with a telemetry laser and located on the nose of our plane. So with good weather, we can do completely without the radar.
We can also visually identify an aircraft we have locked at distance ensuring our safety.


The Rafale is the first truly omnirôle aircraft. That is to say that he is able to perform all the functions previously assigned to aircraft specialized in a single type of missions in a single flight. Do you have a concrete illustration implementing the panoply of tools available on the Rafale, including electronic warfare?

Every day we train to exploit the versatility of the Rafale.
For example, few times ago, i worked with a young pilot in a scenario for which we had to move to within a territory defended by aircrafts to perform radar mapping, find 12 targets, simulate their bombardment with our AASM and leave. So, within a few minutes, my young team-mate and me have simulated the firing of 5 air-to-air missiles and 12 air-to-ground bombs using all the capabilities of our radar and while jamming.
We have not suffered losses and we have inflicted some kills to our adversaries.


Captain Cedric "Rut" Ruet [current Rafale solo display pilot] said sometimes he’s dealing with load factors up to 11 G depending on the configuration of the demonstration. How is a pilot undergoing such accelerations without losing consciousness? Have you been subjected to such strong acceleration during your mission?

The Rafale is the most comfortable aircraft i know. The angle of its seat enables us to deal with G more easily than in a Mirage 2000, for example.
We may need to deal with so many G in the beginning of a dogfight: the first turn often determines the outcome of the battle...
[…]

How is going your daily training in Saint-Dizier?

When we start our day, we organize our work according to the flight in which we are planned.
We are dedicated to it, at least two hours before takeoff. This minimum period allows us to be aware of weather conditions, to determine the teaching objectives of the flight, to choose the tactics we will use and to prepare the mission and the pre-flight briefing.
In a complex preparation, the time of preparation can quickly exceed an half-dozen hours.
The flight lasts about one hour. Frequently we train to refuel in flight, mechanically delaying our landing. Those who have read my book will understand that this training is not superfluous...
Sometimes we also train in long flights, exceeding 5 hours.
Once the flight completed, we unload the flight data for each aircraft involved in an analysis system that allows us to draw all the lessons of our mission for all crew members. This phase may take from 1 to 2 hours.
Thus a standard flight monopolizes us on average during 5 hours.
Our training is part of our daily activity. If we are programmed in flight once in a day on average, it is also certain that experienced fighter pilots spend most of their time to train younger.
This is true on all combat aircraft and this is particularly true for the Rafale: This aircraft is a real leap forward in technology and new possibilities that are open to us, lead us to rethink and rewrite our training programs and our tactics. It is a volume close to 2000 pages ,very technical, that have already been rewritten and we strive to ever refine it for more efficiency.
While some may write the other, younger, use their ‘free’ time to learn this documentation.
[…]

To finish, what’s up at 15,000 meters and Mach 1.6?

It is a moment of great calm and a rare experience.
At this altitude, it is not crowded and the air traffic controller did not need to multiply radio messages to coordinate our flight with other aircraft in the vicinity: all our natural environment becomes quieter.
The less dense air does not allow the aircraft to move with the same vivacity that at low-level: all its movements are slower.
At this height, flying at Mach 1.60 is not really seen, but is measured with pleasure. For example, i had the opportunity to fly over the city of Dijon, six minutes after leaving the city center of Lyon...
So while you move clearly faster, everything seems slow.
But what i like most at this altitude is that you can see, by looking 360 degrees at the horizon, it has a slightly round form ... Then of course, i would like to go a little higher.

'''''''''''''''''''''''

Captain Romain is the author of Rafale in Afghanistan, a war diary describing his experience in combat against the Taliban.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kanson » 09 Jul 2010 17:57

I started to like Rafale suddenly.... I dont know...what is happening to me...After drooling over on the Alienware...anything looks like an alien seems to be of my taste. :)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby JimmyJ » 10 Jul 2010 06:37

Germany mulls cuts in weapons programs

to retire as quickly as possible the remaining 100 Panavia Tornado combat jets and refuse to enter into service 37 Eurofighter jets the Bundeswehr had planned to procure


Would this mean a further reduced commitment towards the Eurofighter program and Tranche 3 development with austerity measure to kick in full from this year at least till 2013? [By 2013 Europe is planning to bring down its budget deficit by half]

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby ManuJ » 10 Jul 2010 07:50

rohitvats wrote:1. The allusion to dhobi analogy was to highlight that everyone and his aunt knows about the threat from China - more so the Indian Armed Forces. It is only now that political establishment has started acting on the recommendations of the Armed Forces...so, one does not need that article to reach that conclusion.

2. The buil-up against China is not a commentary on the position of the Armed Forces vis-a-vis Pakistan - to do that would be really stupid. Also, the fact that we're not talking about splitting TSPA along the RYK-Hyderabad axis does not mean that we don't intend to inflict very heavy and debilitating losses on the PA - there are many ways to skin the cat. In cae you've been following the reports on the contours of next Indo-Pak shooting match, the discussion veers around degrading the fighting potential of PA.

3. as explained in the point 2 above, the build-up against China is in addition to the existing force structure - bulk of which remains committed to the TSPA front. Interestingly, the formations to be raised against China (like dedicated Mountain Strike Corps+divisions in Northern Sector), may well end up on Western front in case of Indo-Pak shooting match.

4. As for Arjun saga and relation to Mechanizatio plans of IA, well, sir, please go through the Armored Discussion Thread and you'll find the reason. But notwithstanding that, IA still wants ~4,000 MBT....and as and when the Cold Start Doctrine starts getting implemented..this number will go up further.

5. Leh trials - more informed maulanas can tell you that IAF has operated fighters off and on from Leh - MiG-23 were the first to be successfully deployed in the AFB. These trials in Leh are not an indication of increased threat from China - but a threat, which is "existent in being". After all, PAF operated fighters from Skardu. So, there is no genius in that.

Hope this helps in clearing the issue.


rohitvats,

re: dhobhi, I'm sorry you missed the sarcasm.

I don't think I share your sense of absolutism, of needing to paint everything in black and white. I know just a little, and see everything in shades of gray. My comments about the sudden (over the last few years) shift in focus of the Indian security establishment (of which the Indian armed forces are but a part, and not even the primary decision makers, for better or worse) certainly were not meant to convey that India is letting it's guard down vis-a-vis Pakistan. Any such interpretation would be simplistic. And I do know about the history of operations from Leh - again, you've taken a very narrow view of my comments. And yes, I did follow the Arjun thread too, and largely agreed with your pov. What I was wondering aloud was whether there are more factors to IA's decision than we had accounted for. All I can say is that the article put some things in focus for me (and I can only speak for myself) and connected some dots for me. It may have happened for you earlier. Let's leave it at that.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 10 Jul 2010 09:51

Update on 'the' shortlist..

MMCRA contenders’ list likely to take a month

Despite speculations on contenders for the $ 11 billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal, it could be atleast four more weeks before such a list is finalised. The technical team of the Indian Air Force (IAF) is still in the process of finalising the trials reports, sources in the ministry of defence told FE.

“Technical evaluation report of the field trials, during which the six foreign contenders in the race were tested by IAF pilots both in India and abroad under different weather conditions.” “We still have a long way to go before short listing the fighters that have done well in the trials. There was actually no set date for the trial results to be out. Its all speculations and it will take IAF several weeks for submitting the exhaustive report,” said a source.

Recent changes in India’s requirements are changing the relative rankings of the contenders. Geopolitical considerations will also have a crucial role to play, as most of these choices have the potential to improve relations with an important potential ally

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 10 Jul 2010 09:59

Lalmohan wrote: the EADS 'promise' above has a lot of possibilities, if played right, it works beneficially from an industrial and geopolitical sense


The cancellation of the Airbus mid-air refueler tender has come as rude shock and a big wake up call.. EADS seems to have learned its lesson the hard way..its just about realised that it needs to do a lot more than just satisfy IAF requirements. It seems focused and its campaign seems to be gathering steam at just the right time.. Whether thats going to translate into results or not, is a completely different matter. But at least they seem to be giving it- a red hot go...

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby anirban_aim » 10 Jul 2010 18:03

Lalmohan wrote:this thread has debated the technical merits to death, perhaps its time to move to the political ones? the EADS 'promise' above has a lot of possibilities, if played right, it works beneficially from an industrial and geopolitical sense


When this thread was started, it began with a poll. I was then and I'm now of the view that the size of the deal will be expanded.

Secondly it will not be a winner takes all kind of contest, there will be more than one winner. In the given geo strategic environment, India will like spread its love and moolah across to win a few friends.

US economy being what it is, and about 1/3rd of the French economy threatened by the Greek default crisis and Germany trying austerity measures while keeping production going. All are going to push hard. What with a chance of a handome down payment and the assurance of a stream of payments spread over years also chances of winning upgrade contracts in future.

Now, to this let us bring in the very probable Indo - Chinese conflict situation, I'll bet my money that India will like to have a tactical ally (I write tactical, as I don't believe that there are any "all wheather friends" in geo politic)

Now who do you/we think is the best hedge against China today and in the forseeable future???

Secondly for the sake of arguement lets say that since America owes a lot of debt to China, so China will have a leverage against America helping India.

Now with every possible chance of US of A entering into a period of Stagflation of high inflation and moderate growth... what do you think could change the face of the US economy??

TO answer that to my small mind it surely stands to logic that a massive restructuring, where US washes its hands off a large amount of debt. ANd what could it do the china??? Its massive surplus could just vanish into thin air and asset prices collapse and collapse of China as a country as we know it.

How wil they do i smokescreens, rheoteric and military power.

But then what happens to the other debt that US is running with other countries,maorly in Gulf?? They toe the amerki line due to fear of AMeriki Military retribution in the form of Stuff like regime change.. Will Countries like France and Russia let this happen silently??? no not at all they will raise hue and cry and breast beat and mouth holier than thou rheotric but then thats that.

Where does it take Indo Ameriki collboration, For America: Make sure India appears weak, Provoke China, make it insecure. Don't try too hard but help from behind the curtain in precipitating an Indo CHina war. See if Russia will also pressurize China in such a situation

When will India be left holding the baby: If China agrees to a masssive bail out of US. Then the entrire situation will be rendered invalid.

But as of now my bet is that Indian POlicy makers feel that conflict with China is ineviable.So they wil like to have US on their side. And why I'm writing all this on the MMRCA thread??

Hornet will get a major share of the deal. Price will be revised downwards.

Now to my mind who will be the other beneficiaries.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Bihanga » 10 Jul 2010 18:28

There is no need of China and Pakistan to be considered as a our biggest enemies, as far as our policymakers chose to overlook pressing need of addressing our force depletion. They seems to be of the view that, current inventory is more then enough to perform intended role like our Mig-21s and Mig-27 as they cannot perform the role of Effect Based Operation. Any contender of this MRCA will do for me as far as they can immediately feel our depleting fleet and help in phasing out of this major oldies.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby steve » 10 Jul 2010 19:44

Now the technical evaluation for MRCA is over. Yes the commercial evaluation is yet to take place.

But Based on the results of technical evaluation, the IAF is going to rate all those 6 aircraft's and put out a list in 4 week's time.

Now based on my assumptions I believe the IAF would have rated the 6 aircraft's in the following way.

1. Eurofighter typhoon
2. Rafael
3. F 16
4. Griphen
5. F 18
6. Mig 35

Now I may be completely wrong . But as per my belief I have come up with the above list.

What do you people think the IAF list will look like? Why don't you post your own list which you think the IAF list would look like?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 10 Jul 2010 19:46

Why don't you tell us based on what did you make your assumptions on and go through the remaining 66 pages to see some of the lists already published by enthusiasts like yourself

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby steve » 10 Jul 2010 19:51

Craig Alpert wrote:Why don't you tell us based on what did you make your assumptions on and go through the remaining 66 pages to see some of the lists already published by enthusiasts like yourself



My list was based on the information and feed back which I got from various quarters . As for as people who have posted their list..............well why don't we recap.

May be their might be changes in their list for we heard so much on various aircraft's performance during the evaluation.

As we are on the verge of finding the IAF list, why not we come up with our ratings on last time :) .
Last edited by steve on 10 Jul 2010 20:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 10 Jul 2010 20:01

^^
Even so, there is little point in posting rankings if you do not give solid reasons for why each a/c is in that particular place. Just posting some baseless ranking does little to elevate the level of this thread (which has already gone to dump IMHO). Of course, if you would give some solid rationale behind the ranking, then no body should have any problem.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Surya » 10 Jul 2010 22:52

can we stop this silliness of lists etc

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby akshay » 12 Jul 2010 01:46

Surya wrote:can we stop this silliness of lists etc


WHY?

Many here like diff aircrafts and yet there is no authoritative answer in the forum. In fact a "list" is what is required of what BRfites agree on the most. A LIST is exactly what DAC will come out and sent to the GOI to start commercial bidding
I'll join you Steve. In fact with MRCA coming to an end ...this forum will close ..so place your bets gentlemen.

My list for the DAC would be

1. Eurofighter typhoon
2. F 18
3. Gripen
4. Rafale
5. Mig 35
6. F 16

I agree on Choice 1
I rate the F18 higher cuz of the APG radar with it, Growler et all, proven platform.
Gripen has won out against Rafale in Thailand. Mind you Gripen has TATA for the JV. Rafale has pissed off MOD earlier...big mistake :D
Mig 35 is too cheap to be of use, we already placated Ruskis with the KUB..no need for Mig 29 big brother.
I rate F 16 low cuz this is already in Paki hands and niether the USMC/USAF gonna use it further too long.

To me it looks like just one choice- TYPHOON JETS

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 12 Jul 2010 02:42

Surya wrote:can we stop this silliness of lists etc

I would rather propose a Ministry of Silly Lists with appropriate funding from the Consolidated fund of India. :P

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 12 Jul 2010 02:57

According to 8ak RUMORS HAVE BEEN DOING ROUND, OF ONLY 3 HEAVY LIFTERS MAKING IT TO THE NEXT ROUND!!!!

Have a field day figuring out who the three are!!!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nachiket » 12 Jul 2010 03:33

Craig Alpert wrote:According to 8ak RUMORS HAVE BEEN DOING ROUND, OF ONLY 3 HEAVY LIFTERS MAKING IT TO THE NEXT ROUND!!!!

Have a field day figuring out who the three are!!!


Even if the IAF comes up with the list in a month's time, they won't be releasing it to the media right now will they? We probably won't find out who had made it to the next round for another year. So as far as we are concerned all six made it to the next round.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 12 Jul 2010 03:46

Rahul M wrote:
Surya wrote:can we stop this silliness of lists etc

I would rather propose a Ministry of Silly Lists with appropriate funding from the Consolidated fund of India. :P


A somewhat representative list can be made in terms of some performance features and basic data. The problem is none here can account for the political aspect, and the overall value for money as elucidated in the overall deal cost and what comes along with it. These two are the most critical parameters, if aircraft performance in the original IAF RFP (as some reports suggest) was loosely framed around the capabilities of the Mirage 2000-V and as such, all the competitors will meet the specification.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 12 Jul 2010 03:53

karan ji there are so many unknown factors that any such effort is doomed from the beginning to a fanboy effort. we can do a somewhat reasonable tech eval although we don't know IAF requirements but on other things like politics, economics etc we have no idea where to begin.

for the factors you list as critical we are still in the realm of ifs and buts.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 12 Jul 2010 04:04

Rahul M wrote:karan ji there are so many unknown factors that any such effort is doomed from the beginning to a fanboy effort. we can do a somewhat reasonable tech eval although we don't know IAF requirements but on other things like politics, economics etc we have no idea where to begin.

for the factors you list as critical we are still in the realm of ifs and buts.


Yeah, but it would have been fairly interesting to do a comprehensive effort to catalogue aircraft performance plus other data around overall deal value (e.g. EADS offering R&D center, xyz tech etc), sustainability (# of users, paper plane vs operational ones) to get an idea.

Then one gets an idea of how much politics mattered vis a vis the deal.

Otherwise, this may end up as one of the most non transparent of deals for the indian taxpayer. Given the amount of money we are spending on this, I do hope we have as much insight into the why & what as possible, even if the powers that be dont release all the details

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 12 Jul 2010 05:20

nachiket wrote:
Craig Alpert wrote:According to 8ak RUMORS HAVE BEEN DOING ROUND, OF ONLY 3 HEAVY LIFTERS MAKING IT TO THE NEXT ROUND!!!!

Have a field day figuring out who the three are!!!


Even if the IAF comes up with the list in a month's time, they won't be releasing it to the media right now will they? We probably won't find out who had made it to the next round for another year. So as far as we are concerned all six made it to the next round.


Your probably right but it won't be long, before the ones that do not make the cut start crying foul, alleging corruption, favoritism, etc etc. I don't think they'd be able to keep that info would be under wraps for too long...

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Samay » 12 Jul 2010 06:00

Since the final countdown is near, be ready for big rumours and PR wars.
Seems like EADS had initiated it .
BTW when it comes to Rafael vs EF its like
French art vs German engineering
both are extremes of their kind

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 12 Jul 2010 07:42

Samay wrote:Since the final countdown is near, be ready for big rumours and PR wars.
Seems like EADS had initiated it.


Are you implying that EADS initiated the rumors? :roll:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby karan_mc » 12 Jul 2010 07:49

I think some defence site or blog should hire the services of the octopus paul and predict the winner ,it might save around 100gb bandwidth of BR site :) :) :)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 12 Jul 2010 07:57

karan_mc wrote:I think some defence site or blog should hire the services of the octopus paul and predict the winner ,it might save around 100gb bandwidth of BR site :) :) :)

:rotfl:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby steve » 12 Jul 2010 08:05

akshay wrote:
Surya wrote:can we stop this silliness of lists etc


WHY?

Many here like diff aircrafts and yet there is no authoritative answer in the forum. In fact a "list" is what is required of what BRfites agree on the most. A LIST is exactly what DAC will come out and sent to the GOI to start commercial bidding
I'll join you Steve. In fact with MRCA coming to an end ...this forum will close ..so place your bets gentlemen.

My list for the DAC would be

1. Eurofighter typhoon
2. F 18
3. Gripen
4. Rafale
5. Mig 35
6. F 16

I agree on Choice 1
I rate the F18 higher cuz of the APG radar with it, Growler et all, proven platform.
Gripen has won out against Rafale in Thailand. Mind you Gripen has TATA for the JV. Rafale has pissed off MOD earlier...big mistake :D
Mig 35 is too cheap to be of use, we already placated Ruskis with the KUB..no need for Mig 29 big brother.
I rate F 16 low cuz this is already in Paki hands and niether the USMC/USAF gonna use it further too long.

To me it looks like just one choice- TYPHOON JETS



Hi akshay…………. thank you very much for your positive reply. Extremely grateful in deed . Finally I found someone subscribing to my idea.
I was just curious to know as to how members in the forum thought about different aircraft in the fray. As we know the technical evaluation is over and the list is about to be published in less than a month. The commercial evaluation has nothing to do with aircraft ability. It deals with cost, transfer of technology and lots of political influence.

So at the end of the day, for a true aviation enthusiast what really matters is the technical evaluation. Yes as we know it is going to be a land mark event in the history of IAF.
But I understand that nobody had any intention to offend me .
Any way thank you very much for your response.
Last edited by steve on 12 Jul 2010 09:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 12 Jul 2010 08:30

steve wrote:ANY WAY THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR RESPONSE.[/b]


steve, Can you please not post in bold and in capitals ? It is very jarring. And in BBB speak, that is equivalent to shouting.

Please post in normal fonts. No one reads posts just because it is in bold or in capitals. It is the content that counts, not the fonts.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby steve » 12 Jul 2010 09:35

putnanja wrote:
steve wrote:ANY WAY THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR RESPONSE.[/b]


steve, Can you please not post in bold and in capitals ? It is very jarring. And in BBB speak, that is equivalent to shouting.

Please post in normal fonts. No one reads posts just because it is in bold or in capitals. It is the content that counts, not the fonts.



Sorry! my mistake. Edited

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby akshay » 12 Jul 2010 12:16

karan_mc wrote:I think some defence site or blog should hire the services of the octopus paul and predict the winner ,it might save around 100gb bandwidth of BR site :) :) :)


believe me Karanji , we are all octopuses here..but seriously Brfite folks needs to select atleast 2 planes we think IAF will go for ... we are already wasting a lot of HDD space.
we can't be bureaucaratic like the bureaucracy right?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 12 Jul 2010 12:35

akshay wrote:
karan_mc wrote:I think some defence site or blog should hire the services of the octopus paul and predict the winner ,it might save around 100gb bandwidth of BR site :) :) :)


believe me Karanji , we are all octopuses here..but seriously Brfite folks needs to select atleast 2 planes we think IAF will go for ... we are already wasting a lot of HDD space.
we can't be bureaucaratic like the bureaucracy right?


Mate, until the shortlist is announced the '2 plane that we think IAF will go for' discussions are futile.. The shortlist will be the only way discussions will end up being more streamlined..until then each of the 6 and everyones individual favorite is an equal contender..

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby akshay » 12 Jul 2010 12:50

shukla wrote:Mate, until the shortlist is announced the '2 plane that we think IAF will go for' discussions are futile.. The shortlist will be the only way discussions will end up being more streamlined..until then each of the 6 and everyones individual favorite is an equal contender..


Shuklaji, that means you agree with me?
there is no shorlist, you will have all 6 contenders gaping while Honoroble Defence Minister unveils the winner.


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