MRCA News and Discussion

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Aug 2010 13:23

UK is going to cut its typhoon purchase by half from 200 to 100, so slots on production line will not be a problem. rafale line also has no issue since france is the only customer so far and a small lot for brazil probably.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby D Roy » 09 Aug 2010 13:36

Look despite BRCA's endless discussions, EF was the only thing worth buying in that sad list.

And all of us know the reason - endless discussions on two front war is the hint - the heightened profile of the PLAAF.


We simply need to achieve air superiority on both sides if we really care about fighting a two front war. And the PLAAF with shiny new flankers + possible thrust vectoring J-10 Bs + refueling + KJ-2000 may put up a challenge on the tibetan plateau.

This means that for whatever its worth - and even at the risk of affordability - we need to put up a Hi-Hi combination to scare the PAF and PLAAF off, till such time our fifth generation programs become mature atleast.

And in that sad MRCA list - EF + meteor is just what the doctor ordered for Chicom,.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 09 Aug 2010 13:42

Advantage with Rafale would be readiness of RBE2 + upcoming version of GaN chips, if we can get tot for GaN that could a big leap.

While Typhoon's advantage would be commonality of engine with LCA.

Though Rafale is soon getting more powerful engines too.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Aug 2010 13:50

thinking that way...the focus of MRCA shifts away from strike to more A2A role, wherein the typhoon allegedly has the drop on the rest.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby prastor » 09 Aug 2010 13:53

Manish_Sharma wrote:Advantage with Rafale would be readiness of RBE2 + upcoming version of GaN chips, if we can get tot for GaN that could a big leap.

While Typhoon's advantage would be commonality of engine with LCA.

Though Rafale is soon getting more powerful engines too.


The French are notorious for their stingy attitude when it comes to ToT. They will manipulate that clause to keep all the critical stuff to themselves and throw the nuts and screw drivers at HAL and DRDO.

The first set of deliveries are expected only in 2013 or so. There is no hurry for an AESA right away. So, if EF can get an AESA by 2013 or 2014 somehow, Rafale won't really have an edge in this as well.

As far as the Rafale engines go, they are grossly underpowered IMHO. 50kN class for dry thrust? Really? How much can they improve from there? 10kN more maybe? On the other hand, the Tranche 3 of Typhoon is expected to have the uprated EJ2x0 engine with a 72kN - 78kN dry thrust (up to 120kN w/ afterburner) along with thrust vectoring. This upgrade will leave the Rafale in the dust.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Aug 2010 13:56

and weak engines and stubby airframe means it cannot add fat like the f-solah did in its lifetime starting from a trim block10 to madam jalebi now.

whatever we decide has to with upgrades defeat whatever the chinese can produce / steal / buy even 40 yrs laters. so the entire platform and upgrades possible should be considered.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby prastor » 09 Aug 2010 14:11

For people who keep on pushing lies about the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet's performance by claiming it as a 9G (some here even claimed it is above 9G and limited to 9G by software), please read Boeing's own manual to clarify this once and for all.

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/mil ... erview.pdf

F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Block II is a 7.6G aircraft BY DESIGN. All this 9G and software limit BS is just that, a bunch of BS.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 09 Aug 2010 14:12

parshuram wrote:With Due respect Austin, These type of statements would be expected from all the five whomw would be left out that why you wasted our time when we were not to be selected !!!


Sorry but IAF knew already that it needs a "Modern Western Aircraft" hence my statement.

This is no brainy now that IAF thinks Rafale and Eurofighter is their top choice ,Does it surprise any one ?

They are the only design from scratch 4 half gen fighter and performance wise they are bound to exceed the rest in some or most paramaters ofcourse at a BIG cost.

Thats like saying oh the Su-35 is better than MKI in flight performance and most paramaters ,most certainly it is bound to be that way by design.

So if the IAF need Modern Western Fighter and it knew F-16 is oldie , Mig-35 is out and Gripen is too close to Tejas then why did it invite them in the first place , they could have had the performance testing done between Eurofighter , Rafale and F-18 and then made a choice.

They want both single engine and twin engine to fight for the same deal and then claim the modern twin engine design is better ?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby prastor » 09 Aug 2010 14:31

Austin wrote:
parshuram wrote:With Due respect Austin, These type of statements would be expected from all the five whomw would be left out that why you wasted our time when we were not to be selected !!!


Sorry but IAF knew already that it needs a "Modern Western Aircraft" hence my statement.

This is no brainy now that IAF thinks Rafale and Eurofighter is their top choice ,Does it surprise any one ?

They are the only design from scratch 4 half gen fighter and performance wise they are bound to exceed the rest in some or most paramaters ofcourse at a BIG cost.

Thats like saying oh the Su-35 is better than MKI in flight performance and most paramaters ,most certainly it is bound to be that way by design.

So if the IAF need Modern Western Fighter and it knew F-16 is oldie , Mig-35 is out and Gripen is too close to Tejas then why did it invite them in the first place , they could have had the performance testing done between Eurofighter , Rafale and F-18 and then made a choice.

They want both single engine and twin engine to fight for the same deal and then claim the modern twin engine design is better ?


Austin Ji,

You are looking at it from the wrong perspective. Firstly, remember that this competition started almost a decade ago and went through a lot of changes on its way to this stage.

IAF merely stated a requirement to retire its old Mirage and Mig fleets with new fighters since LCA's IOC might be delayed even beyond 2010-11 (which fortunately will not happen).

The 6 contestants chose to participate. They were not expressly hand picked for invitation by India. The planes they fielded in the competition were also their own picks after they read the ASQR. The IAF did not demand any company to field only a particular fighter or with particular number of engines.

Holding IAF responsible for what companies chose to field in the competition is silly. It was only right on IAF's part to allow everyone to participate and have an equal shot at it.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby JimmyJ » 09 Aug 2010 14:35

Austin, and what about the cost that the three alone would have quoted? I think the single engined aircrafts were present to put pressure on pricing. Remember many a times it was mentioned by the MoD that builder who qualifies and has the lowest bid will win the match. We need to wait and see whether this tactics actually worked.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby prabhug » 09 Aug 2010 15:01

how abt F-sollah with 40% more engine power ??

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby parshuram » 09 Aug 2010 15:11

Austin wrote:
parshuram wrote:With Due respect Austin, These type of statements would be expected from all the five whomw would be left out that why you wasted our time when we were not to be selected !!!


Sorry but IAF knew already that it needs a "Modern Western Aircraft" hence my statement.

This is no brainy now that IAF thinks Rafale and Eurofighter is their top choice ,Does it surprise any one ?

They are the only design from scratch 4 half gen fighter and performance wise they are bound to exceed the rest in some or most paramaters ofcourse at a BIG cost.

Thats like saying oh the Su-35 is better than MKI in flight performance and most paramaters ,most certainly it is bound to be that way by design.

So if the IAF need Modern Western Fighter and it knew F-16 is oldie , Mig-35 is out and Gripen is too close to Tejas then why did it invite them in the first place , they could have had the performance testing done between Eurofighter , Rafale and F-18 and then made a choice.

They want both single engine and twin engine to fight for the same deal and then claim the modern twin engine design is better ?


I would have agreed to what you have said if the things were only limited to flight performance and all, but there were various other factors that were part of this deal, Weapons and goodies along with aircraft, Radar, Logistic support , re circulation of money in india and ofcourse the TOT .

I would not be surprised for Fighters like F-16, Mig 35 if some body tell me that IAF was not intrested in them from start , but looking at the composure and texture of deal there was every chance that when RFI was issued some vendors might not have replied . Remeber Rafale was replaced by Mirage courtsey Dassult, just imagine i don't think if that would have not done IAF would have bothered to give Dassault a chance, Moreoevr what would have IAF choice if EADS had pitched with JSF or LM with F-22 {There is no tax on day dreaming... :mrgreen: } would you have expected that IAF still going for Rafale or EF.

IAF in every right should choose what is best is for them and right now rafale / Ef do stand tall overall
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 09 Aug 2010 15:13

Prastor , Ok so in that case why was Sukhoi explicitly debarred from participating ?

How is then the IAF ASQR is so broad and encompasses any thing and every thing that any thing from the lightest Gripen to the heaviest F-18 can participate for the same piece of cake , its quite unfair to say the least ?

JimmyJ just because some one is willing to sell single engine F-16IN for say $ 50 million does not mean that Rafale and Eurofighter prices will go down to nearly the same amount , so the idea of having single engine participate just to reduce cost is a non starter. That probably like saying of a Honda City Sedan sells for 10L the competing BMW will reduce the cost drastically to match the Honda , cant be right ?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Aug 2010 15:31

when a swayamvar is held, ALL the princes of neighbouring kingdoms are invited no matter if someone cannot lift the gandiva bow above the knees - lest any powerful ally take offense...they are then respectfully wined and dined and invited to try their luck. you also get to study their food habits, strength, ambitions and plans from close quarters in a non-threatening way.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 09 Aug 2010 15:39

Singha this was not a sponsored trip by IAF but vendor would pay for trial and risk was that of vendors considering the fact that IAF knew it needs only "Western Fighter" and that too "Modern Western Fighter"

I am sure if you tell the contestant now that we need modern western fighter some would complain that you should have told this before and Mig would end up with a red face

I am certain and some would agree the MMRCA trial is in a way unfair competition reflects more of IAF indecisiveness on what it needs then vendors fault.

Added Later: Ofcourse this is all assuming that what TimesNow says is Truth and nothing but the Truth and I am certain from now till the date GOI makes an official announcement of the winner many such Truth and information will keep coming :wink:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby geeth » 09 Aug 2010 15:46

Obviously, more a/c were invited for competition to have a better grip while negotiating the price. What if only these two were invited from beginning? it would have cost us their weight in gold. IMO, even now, two are selected to bring the price down..whoever gives a better deal should get it, as long as it meets most of the specs/requirements. ToT should be the prime concern - once the Engine & Radar tech is within the Indian boundaries, then we can HOPEFULLY put a lid on this mad chase after phoren maal...or else the security guards at Parliaments would have to deal with the home grown Naxals, instead of phoren jihadis..

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 09 Aug 2010 15:52

Geeth more aircraft would not necessarily mean better grip while negotiating price considering that both single and dual engine aircraft were competing for the same deal and both old upgrades and newer design were competing.

A Rafale or Eurofighter will not drop its price just because a Gripen or F-16 is in the race , much like a BMW wont drop it just because City Sedan is competing with it.

A fair trail would be between Eurofighter , F-18 and Rafale if IAF needs a Modern Western Fighter with the winner deciding on who bids the lowest L1 , the rest could have been conveniently and rightly kept out .

It is more of faulty RFP which was based on outdated M2K-5 baseline configuration hence all qualified for it.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby JimmyJ » 09 Aug 2010 15:59

Austin wrote:Prastor , Ok so in that case why was Sukhoi explicitly debarred from participating ?

How is then the IAF ASQR is so broad and encompasses any thing and every thing that any thing from the lightest Gripen to the heaviest F-18 can participate for the same piece of cake , its quite unfair to say the least ?

JimmyJ just because some one is willing to sell single engine F-16IN for say $ 50 million does not mean that Rafale and Eurofighter prices will go down to nearly the same amount , so the idea of having single engine participate just to reduce cost is a non starter. That probably like saying of a Honda City Sedan sells for 10L the competing BMW will reduce the cost drastically to match the Honda , cant be right ?


I have not stated that prices will come down to a single engined figter level but that there will be pressure to reduce the price. But the question is what if there is no other market at this moment and both are targeting the same person? Wouldn't economics suggest that there would be price pressure in such intense competition?

If there was new market available at this moment to sell Rafale and Typhoon in huge numbers, the prices would never have come down. But as the current economic situation prevails there doesn't seems to be one. Europe itself is trying to reduce the number of Typhoons they want to purchase. But since there is a penalty involved and that the penalty itself is huge they are trying to find an export market to reduce their commitment. So they not only reduce the defense cost but they also gain business. That is a double advantage, reducing the loss and making a profit too. Even if the profit may be less at the end they stand to gain better.


As I mentioned earlier we may need to wait whether this has translated into an actual price reduction is here.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 09 Aug 2010 16:10

Well even if Rafale and Typhoon competed for this deal there would be severe competition and pressure to reduce prices to the best they can since no one wants to loose a sweet 200 aircraft deal , now add F-16 and Gripen to the table do you think they would reduce the prices to F-16/Gripen level because of the stiff competition they offer ?

We are comparing Apples and Oranges here.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby geeth » 09 Aug 2010 16:16

>>>Geeth more aircraft would not necessarily mean better grip while negotiating price considering that both single and dual engine aircraft were competing for the same deal and both old upgrades and newer design were competing.

We don't know the details yet..but looking at it, I feel GoI should kill the disputes/ToT on Scorpene, Kaveri, AESA and host of other issues with this mega deal. If the French play hard ball, we should select the EF. I would prefer the EF, because there are more cooks involved in cooking this broth than the Rafale - hence if one of them are rigid, we can hope and pray that other three (or more) would hit him on the head with a sledge hammer, seeing the colour of the moolah. But in the case of EF, we will have less leverage with the French - hence we will have to squeeze the balls of Areva to straighten the Scorpene assembly line.

Russians have become pathetic suppliers of late with most of their equipments. I personally feel they are blackmailing India in many ways, by linking each deal with the next / previous ones. Philip in one of his posts had mentioned that we have signed a deal for the fifth Gen fighter? Are we sure? There may be letters of intent, but I don't think Russians will do anything worthwhile with Indians in this project. Same with the MTA. If we had invested the money then and there in India, atleast a mockup could have been produced by now.

Deals with Russians are becoming bitter as the time passes..May be GoI has also realised that. I am happy the deal didn't go to MIG. It would have ended up with another round of acrimony. All said and done, Indian still does considerable Defence deals with Russians, but It is time to move on and spread the eggs in different baskets.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby geeth » 09 Aug 2010 16:19

>>>We are comparing Apples and Oranges here.

Not exactly.. what we if we tell them that you are too costly and Mig-35 is good enough for our requirements. But if you reduce the price in your bid, there is a chance that your papers will be looked at. If you substantially reduce the price, we might even shortlist you...to give you enough confidence to strike a deal with us.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby JimmyJ » 09 Aug 2010 16:21

Austin wrote:Well even if Rafale and Typhoon competed for this deal there would be severe competition and pressure to reduce prices to the best they can since no one wants to loose a sweet 200 aircraft deal , now add F-16 and Gripen to the table do you think they would reduce the prices to F-16/Gripen level because of the stiff competition they offer ?



No I don't. I hope you read the first line I wrote in the last post if this post was addressed to me.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby krisna » 09 Aug 2010 16:22

Singha wrote:when a swayamvar is held, ALL the princes of neighbouring kingdoms are invited no matter if someone cannot lift the gandiva bow above the knees - lest any powerful ally take offense...they are then respectfully wined and dined and invited to try their luck. you also get to study their food habits, strength, ambitions and plans from close quarters in a non-threatening way.

:rotfl: Thank you- lord of the beasts for forcing me to crawl out into open to post here.

I am certain and some would agree the MMRCA trial is in a way unfair competition reflects more of IAF indecisiveness on what it needs then vendors fault.

I dont know whether to :(( :(( or :roll: :roll: or :twisted: :evil: or :rotfl:
talk about self flagellation for some one's behalf.'sigh"
Why should IAF be held responsible?? It gives out specifics based on what it thinks is necessary for India's requirements. vendors come and display their wares to us. In the end we pay big bucks.
The term 'modern western fighter' may seem different things to different people.
All the vendors are to the west of India. All of the a/cs’ are modern in contemporary sense; some are more so than the others.
It may also be a DDM/paid news for the benefits for certain vendors. why is it not blamed. :roll:
It has been suggested in many quarters that it is a combination of both IAF requirements and political decision regarding the deal. All the vendors knew it. They would have / could have asked for it(if not done). This has gone for a decade.All wanted a pie in it despite their slim chances. If they cry foul it is sour grapes. All were angling for big bucks (both for present and future recognising the SDRE appetite for more).

JMHO(running back to my comfy zone)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Manishw » 09 Aug 2010 16:32

^^^ At the risk of repeating myself all the participants are not duffers, they know full well the potential of the Indian arms bazaar and the Indian Govt. will also not disappoint anybody.All who loose will be compensated in various ways.India's appetite for arms is huge. For eg Does anybody really think that if Mig-35 doesn't make it then the russian's have lost out.No way. They will get something else.
Only a country like amrika will loose if the teens are not selected and that too on H & D only.Even they will be compensated in some way or the other.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby sunnyv » 09 Aug 2010 16:43

prastor wrote:For people who keep on pushing lies about the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet's performance by claiming it as a 9G (some here even claimed it is above 9G and limited to 9G by software), please read Boeing's own manual to clarify this once and for all.

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/mil ... erview.pdf

F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Block II is a 7.6G aircraft BY DESIGN. All this 9G and software limit BS is just that, a bunch of BS.


Hi , don't know how much we can trust AWST , but they did manage to cover Field trials in detail .And had this article about F18-Stupid Hornet 9G potential

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/3518/trial1.png

I have marked the concerned part with green arrow

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Vishnu » 09 Aug 2010 16:47

Hi ... Can I just say that no media report on the MRCA deal can be accurate without access to contents of Top Secret files ... which, more often than not, tends to be difficult to do ... particularly in the case of a high stakes multinational battle which will secure (hopefully) not just India's national security but also the future of some of the competing firms.

Can I assure folks here that the Air Force's present mindset can be paraphrased in the following way ... "Let them write what they want. We have had a job to do (evaluate the jets) and we have done that."

Finally ... can I also say ... without having seen the files myself ... that the report on Times Now was INCOMPLETE if not inaccurate. In other words, some of the firms who may have felt that they had been hacked from the competition can breathe easy, for now.

Best
Vishnu Som
Associate Editor and Senior Anchor
NDTV

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby paramyog » 09 Aug 2010 16:54

Ok frens...

Some inside news. From sm1 in IAF.

EFT will win the bid for IAF.

Rafale however will not be the loser. It will find its place for the Navy bid since its already doin well as a carrier based fighter. Although it inherits its current design features from the Mirage family, its still a fighter to recon with.

However, PLAAF isnt scared. They have way too many Sukhois to take on the Indian Blitzkrieg on the Tibetan Plateaus. So this calls for some stealth capability and an AESA that can put the USAF best to shame.

Which means current capability has to be beefed up to the extent of engaging multiple Chinese Sukhois and Pak-F-16s at the same time...( & defeating them subsequently..)
Not only that, threats from SAMs, Anti-aircraft Arty and destroying ballistic as well as ballistic/cruise missiles has to be done in a full scale A2A & A2G scenario. A stealth capability is all that is missing in EFT.
Lets make a $ 100 million per bird worth every dollar...(ooops Euro...)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Manishw » 09 Aug 2010 17:07

^^^ Any thoughts on where unkil fits in?

From Vishnu's post I infer that EF has been given the green light and now the order is to be split either paramyog style or something else.

JMT
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 09 Aug 2010 17:25

Reg. as far as the 5th-gen fighter collaboration goes,pl. remember the words of a Russian diplomat on the subject,that it was upto us as to which areas of the project we wanted to involve ourselves in.An agreement has been signed between both countries and the aircraft is under development and now flying.The Indian variant,expected to be two-seat will arrive a little later than the single seat version.

My only Q about choosing either the Rafale or the Typhoon is that both are more expensive than the SU-30MKIs,which are supposedly superior to both and which aircraft will the IAF in future use as "bomb trucks" for close-support/ground support? For the moment our upgraded MIG-27s,Jaguar UGs (planned) will give us 200+ aircraft.MIG-29UGs and Mirage-2000UGs will give us another 120+. Bisons and LCAs perhaps another 160+.The IAF ideally requires a combination of heavy,medium and light aircraft.But most of these these UGs will all be ending their lifespan around 2020,which means that either the LCA MK-2 fills the gap (difficult for a single-engined aircraft with a limited payload),or a significant number of MMRCAs will have to be built.If the Typhoon wins,then we will have two "heavyweights" in service,which results in an expensive fleet to maintain in the future.Where our UCAVs come into the picture is another big Q mark,as the future strategic doctrine of the IAF (an "aero-space power",as some in the IAF have been demanding) needs to be spelt out more clearly.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 09 Aug 2010 17:31

unkil has been winning lots of other orders, which is an indicator that this one will not come their way. i think rather than airframe, we will buy 'jstars' from france

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Manishw » 09 Aug 2010 17:34

@Lalmohan Ji if true this will give a kick to unkils unmentionables.Where is the lungi dance button?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 09 Aug 2010 17:43

my view is that we'll go with eads with full industrial integration as the quid pro quo, we'll give lots of other deals to the french - possibly in collaboration with israelis, look out for more airbus orders, possibly subs, but the ever hidden radar and electronics fields is where its all at i think - awacs, jstars, sigint, nav/attack, network data management (french should have close to unkil capability by now - and maybe even software collaboration in the near future)
rusi-bhai will get more tanks and subs and then there is PAK-FA for next round

think long term china hedge, forget the irrelevant pakistani short position

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Manishw » 09 Aug 2010 17:52

Lalmohan wrote:Think long term china hedge, forget the irrelevant pakistani short position


Great one liner Lalmohan Ji :D

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Aug 2010 18:01

well Rafale2 is certainly better than Mig29K which is end of line for that branch of Mig29 family. 60 of these pups on two large carriers, +60 Tejas-N would be a nice strike force to raid the east china sea with.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby paramyog » 09 Aug 2010 18:25

Guys...

We need some serious Stealth here..!!

Thats how we'll get our much needed air-superiority..

When Navy has been getting one stealth frigate after another, why has the Air Force been left behind..

Are we going to fly these planes to Sichuan and Schezwan showing off their butts with heat signatures or quietly make a killing and come back home with the pilots n planes intact.

Thats the reason why I had some respect for F-35.

So if we buy either, not without stealth please..!!!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby ManuT » 09 Aug 2010 18:30

Purely in the realm of speculation 1& 2 positions were leaked to knock out 5 & 6 for GOI.

Can I place a ticker on Behalf of BR at this point and say that in 730 days from now, even with option no 6 as a solution, the first of the birds will flying  on 8 aug 2012. (please feel free to correct the timeline at this point)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Manishw » 09 Aug 2010 18:38

paramyog wrote:Guys...
We need some serious Stealth here..!!


Agreed

paramyog wrote:Are we going to fly these planes to Sichuan and Schezwan make a killing and come back home with the pilots n planes intact.

Sorry sir, don't agree , ain't gonna happen.By the time we get so called 'stealth'(a vague term at best) the Chinese will have 'anti-stealth'.
It is a cat and mouse game and I don't see us coming ahead just by this deal.We need stealth, the ding dongs on the a/c and large nos. + support from various other quarters like sats and missiles etc.for air superiority.
JMT Pls feel free to disagree.

Vivek K
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 09 Aug 2010 19:14

Manish, why this desire to kick a potential strategic ally? We must never stop trying to persuade Unkil to cast off ties to Pukistan and also to invest and transfer techs in key areas to India. Foreign policy cannot be held hostage to emotional baggage. Learn from the Pukis in this respect - how they went from Armitage's threat to MUNNA.

Manishw
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Manishw » 09 Aug 2010 19:23

Vivek Ji I am forty yrs and have seen the Americans for a long time.They have a dirty short sighted policy and aligning with them is a kiss of death.
Having said that they are past masters at trading and we should and have to engage them so in a sense you are right but equally we must remember what that country stands for especially strengthening radical Islam and its anti democratic policies whose fruits we have to bear.
We should also not forget its dirty alliances with the PRC and Pukes to our detriment.
I am a fan of a multipolar world and america is an obstacle to it.

Vivek K
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 09 Aug 2010 19:32

I am of a similar age as you Manish. IMHO, what you really feel should not show in your dealings with other nations. We must use constructive engagement to try an convince all about Pakistan's reality (which is probably not hidden from Unkil). Even unkil "uses" Pukis for his own ends and then discards them once the job is done. So every one is looking to use the other in relations between nations.
We tend to look for friendships with "like minded nations". If you look at the past, except for a bond between Unkil and the poodle, there is no such evidence of the existence of such a relation.


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