Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

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Hari Seldon
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Hari Seldon »

Shalom and shubh prabhat, all.

^^^Just to keep, err, perspective, in the perspectives dhaga, a few statements of fact:

1. It doesn't matter (never did, actually) what people here think about the sustainability of defined-benefit pension plans. I might think they're oh-so-great or a horrid evil. Big deal either way. Reality will assert itself whether we like it or not. The smarter set among the boomers nearing retirement as calif employees ought not to take their retirements for granted - as a matter of practical prudence regardless of the morality or otherwise of the implications.

2. When preaching about how not to take extreme extrapolations of standard concepts and terms, kindly adhere to the same. Implying somebody is OK with pimping child p0rn as some 'productive' activity is sure to take the diss-cuss-ion (further) downhill only.

Just saying and all. :) Only. Take it easy and have a nice day. Only.

Jai old monk. Only. :)
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by arnab »

Hari Seldon wrote:Shalom and shubh prabhat, all.




2. When preaching about how not to take extreme extrapolations of standard concepts and terms, kindly adhere to the same. Implying somebody is OK with pimping child p0rn as some 'productive' activity is sure to take the diss-cuss-ion (further) downhill only.

Just saying and all. :) Only. Take it easy and have a nice day. Only.

Jai old monk. Only. :)
Well Hari bhai, as a forum elder shouldn't you have explained to people at the onset what the true measure of productivity is (real value of goods produced per hour worked) and that it has nothing to do with profitability - rather than allowing the average IQ of the forum to deteriorate even further? :)
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Hari Seldon »

Shouldn't you have explained to people at the onset what the true measure of productivity is (real value of goods produced per hour worked) and that it has nothing to do with profitability - rather than allowing the average IQ of the forum to deteriorate even further?
Precisely what I would've done not long ago, I guess. But, the more I learn about the way things are rather than the way I thought they were/learnt in school about them, the more wary I am about pontificating on such delicate matters only.

In any case, the confusion arises because the narrow economic definition of productivity (linked to efficiency in a technical sense) on the one hand is conflated with a more semantic usage of the 'productive economic activity' term - linked more with a more nebulous notion of 'effectiveness', sorta. Productive economic activity, one can legitimately claim, is one that fulfills an existing (if latent) need (and hence demand has already been seeded for the same). No point efficiently (and hence productively?) manufacturing hats or buggy whips in the post WWII era, types.

Anyway, coming back to the crisis, one can perhaps say that the big banks 'sold' toxic waste to large (and hence, adequately knowledgeable, one would think) investors -> there was demand for toxic waste -> productive economic activity happened, voila! Well, the investors - large institutions like pension funds, phoren central banks and sovereign wealth funds and the like as well as many retail investors - one can argue deserve to take a haircut on the stuff bought due to the caveat emptor precept. But what about the fraud, thievery and scammery of the big banks themselves? Think of what happened to Goldman in the egregious (but typical) abacus deal - they got away with an SEC 'settlement' for a 'fine' worth a small fraction of 1% of their quarterly turnover. That's it! Now think of the impunity this will engender going forward. Greed, fraud, power grab, unsustainability - ironically, terms the strat forum associates regularly with the pak elite - are all out at the fore in the US fin sector.

Anyway, all that's for another day, perhaps. Here's new scammery from more of the same GS:
Goldman in Bond Deal
Goldman Sachs Group Inc. is about to start selling municipal bonds directly to mom and pop.

The New York company plans to enter a partnership this week with Chicago securities firm Incapital LLC to sell bonds issued by U.S. states, cities and towns to individual investors, according to a person familiar with the situation.

The arrangement will make billions of dollars of municipal bonds underwritten by Goldman available for sale by at least 85,000 brokers in Incapital's distribution network of broker-dealer firms.

The move allows Goldman to branch out into a lucrative area of the fixed-income markets, a haven for retail investors scared off by volatility in the stock market and riskier corporate credit markets. While some municipalities are facing budget crises, it is rare for municipal bonds to default. Such securities yield more than certificates of deposit or other ultra-safe investments and are tax-free in most cases, making them a staple in retiree savings accounts.
Mish puts it best:
History shows that whatever Goldman is peddling in a big way to cities, counties, or retail investors, be it interest rate swaps or derivatives, or advice, those investors would be better off not taking it.
Yup, caveat emptor indeed.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by enqyoob »

Goldman Sachs fits very well with the Pakistan cricket team - they bet against their customers. Makes one wonder about the standards of the SEC vs. those of the ICC which we know, ain't got none. But then I guess Pakistan hasn't been kicked out of the ICC either.

Re: Defined Benefit pensions and other favorite targets-du-jour, my fear was (at this point I can say I don't care) that with a stroke of the pen/keyboard, the guvrmand can renege on those promises. All it takes is one Guvnor to be elected, who is really wacko, or even a weak one riding a Nationalizt Zocialist wave (Tea, anyone?) with a state budget heading for Chapter 11. Look at events in Arizona, as indicators of extreme positions that may arise in many fields. IMO, the easiest targets are retirees who are not citjens, but may be PR. (Why should the People of XXXX fund these fatcats who are not even citjens of this Great Nashun? Pah!) After all, PR don't vote.

Target #2 is all those citjens who choose to live abroad. A lot of those are likely to be of Latin American origin, so not "real" Americans per T-Party definitions. Also, desis.

Target #3.. the definition of AmirKhan will get narrower.. as in religious etc. As they say,
"When they came for the Jews...
When they came for the Communists..
When they came for the Gypsies..."
etc.

That's what is wrong with swallowing the propaganda from the Tea-partyers. Economic recession, unemployment, ignorance, bigotry, gun culture, and sliding competitiveness, make for the "right" explosive mix. Like Kampuchea, Uganda, Yugoslavia, Fiji, Somalia and Pakistan, and many others before those.

All this ranting about Tenured Teachers for instance is way off the mark - if you haven't seen a 70-year-old teacher gasping up the stairs to teach her 3rd or 4th class of the day, after sitting up all night grading papers, you may not appreciate the situation. Most old profs I know, worked full-time, as in really FULL TIME, even though they were seriously ill. They either died on the job or soon after retiring, so the Defined Benefit did not have to pay out a whole lot. I don't have as much energy at my tender age of 6, as these guys had at 84.

OTOH, in Dera JimmyCarterKhan, the state guvrmand used to have a thing called "Involuntary Separation" benefit - this said that if you were a State employee (sadly not in the University System) and got laid off / your job disappeared due to reorganization because that was the only way they could get you out, well.. you got a lifetime full salary and benefits, whatever you were making at the time. Babus/Babis tried their "best" to be such oiseules that they got Involutantarily Separated at age 35, so they could live in total leisure the rest of their lives.

Which is no worse than what the Wall Street honchos do.

The thing that really bothers me is that the extreme compensation packages of CEOs and bankers were supposed to be based on their extreme job insecurity, and their deep responsibility, etc. In aerospace companies of the 1950s etc. as I hear, executives were expected to take out Home Equity loans to the max, and buy company shares with the money. This was the company's way of ensuring that the execs had more than a casual interest in seeing that the company succeeded. I don't grudge such people a small Golden Parachute or whatever.

But today I don't see any of that. Company X lays off 60% of its workforce (like Carly Fiorina did), or drives the company to bankruptcy, and unless they go to jail, they continue to live as bega-millionaires. I don't see the point of paying such ppl any more than they pay the janitors, who at least have to do a good job regularly with no one to wipe their musharrafs for them.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by vina »

The time to whine about the outrageous nature of pensions plans, etc, is when the employee is hired, not 40 years later, in any system where ethics and honesty matter. But of course that would be a difficult concept....
True. True.. All very halaal and everything . But then the point is there is something called "politics" and "vote banks" and the "machine" in the US as well. For someone from Kerala, you should know this very well. The public sector salaries in many case are a case of shaking the tax payers and others for the privileged few all for the public "servants" onree,and because feeding them via your taxes is "good for you".

Problem is that it can reach a breaking point very soon. Case in point the US Auto industry. 1960s and 70s, the US industry was immensely profitable, no competitor in sight, UAW and other leeches got into the act and to buy peace, the management turned on the benefits full flow. Now if the avg per hour wage of an auto line worker gets to $70 an hour, with all benefits included, it becomes unsunstainable.

GM and others guaranteed healthcare and benefits for life. Each GM employee supported some 4 retirees!. All fine and dandy when it is 1960 or 70, the math is in your favor and you can sign away anything so that the sucker who will come after you in 30 years will handle the trouble and you buy peace now. So for every GM car you bought today some $2500 went towards folks who retired in 60s and 70s .. so less R&D money, lesser quality, lesser everything and you get killed in the marketplace by Japanese and Germans where healthcare and retirement tab is picked up by the state!.

So with the GM and others, the companies were like the "govt" ,run as mai-baap and govt. So no wonder the end state was that it ended up as "Government Motors" :lol: :lol: .

Point is, you can throw the pension and other retirement tab on to the future generations. But what is the guarantee that they will honor it ?. In GM and Chrysler, the obligations were shed in bankruptcy court . For the public sector pensions, it will be shed by voter and tax payer revolt!.

Basically, if you do something that is fundamentally unsustainable (like our glorious Bombay textile mill unions did with Datta Samant in the 1980s) , you end up killing the goose that lays the golden eggs and you end up with nothing (the Bombay mill owners did fine in the end thank you, all those mill lands are now high rises and shopping malls, while the kids of the erstwhile workers will at best become some service providers and delivery boys to the malls and apts!).
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by ramana »

A youtube video on Cultural Capitalism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpAMbpQ8J7g

Also many others on the sidebar.
ArmenT
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by ArmenT »

Hari Seldon wrote:Interesting take on the sham-scam-damn large sporting events (CWG anyone?) have become...

Vancouver taxpayers on hook for $1-billion as most Olympic Village units unsold
jai ho and all that.
Nothing new here. The Olympics were mostly a loss making venture since the very first one in 1896. No Olympics made a profit until the 1984 Olympic games in Los Angeles. In fact, in 1976, city of Montreal had to declare bankruptcy after the games and 1980 Olympics, Russians had to pay a lot of money to Germans and Finns to spruce up Moscow before the games -- Germans shipped in their own construction workers and every building material (including sand) they could and Russians footed the whole bill to preserve H&D.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by ShivaS »

enqyoob wrote:
But it is in the Constitution right? Ah that damned Fed - pity those happy days of slave trade ended or those halcyon days of 1907 panic. Or close to home, the easy days when East India Co was given monopoly to trade in India so long as they earned profits for the throne
Finally, some good thinking in this dhaga. :mrgreen:

As the US economy becomes weaker, the USD will get stronger.

Ah! NOW I c. So clearly, US economy has been getting weaker than the Indian economy since 1966, when the USD was worth only 5 INR. Today it is worth INR46.6, so the Indian economy has become over 900% stronger compared to US economy. Awesome.
Dear Sir this is not rocket science :mrgreen:
This is economics in which demand supply dominate not thrust and drag!

When the US economy grows weaker consumption goes down ie demand drops which means less of imports by US there fore less of earnings for exporters that means short supply of Dollars vis a vis demand for dollars therefore value of $ goes up because of relative valuation.

This is true as long as $ dominated world trade is accepted and US consumption of goods and services is the highest in the world.

In addition it is in the best interest of all to keep dollar high :mrgreen: have you not noticed the resistance to upward revaluation of Yuan and the calls for Rs to be also be revalued.

You can see this in the data.

***
In regards to 1$ = Rs5.00

please note that we devalued purely volutentarily under the pressure of US & IMF as our deficits had grown beyond certain comfort to other countries... :-?


Again it is relative pricing of USD which now uncle abhors unless it is advantageous to it. It is advantageous fro us to keep Rs relatively week as it makes us Virtually highly productive, DOOO gets 1/3 the salary of USOO (US oracle operator) therefore our DOOO is three times productive no?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by enqyoob »

8)
DOO is paid 1/3, so DOO is 3 times as productive
It IS rocket science. I have read that Wernher von Braun and colleagues developed rocket science through "high productivity" as well, on the V-2 program. V-2 rocket was extremely lethal. It killed 200 ppl at its intended targets in England, 3000 in Belgium where many rockets fell along the way due to the superlative quality control (almost as good as Kingfisher Airlines or IndusIndBank websites) and over 20,000 in the factories where it was built, due to the High Productivity Worker Care (HPWC) program that caused the superlative quality control. Gave real meaning to the term "Body Shop". I believe the output also enabled major strides in Deutsche Medical Science.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by ShivaS »

It killed 200 ppl at its intended targets in England, 3000 in Belgium where many rockets fell along the way due to the superlative quality control
It could be because Belgians have more attraction( due to gravity and aslo depends on th sahpe of V2) "femme fatle" tha bull dog faced english which cause drooping.

When V2 fell the fire that it caused started a supplimenatry industry called Belgian fries qhich became HIT consequently :mrgreen:

Those are called falling short of targets in economics.

Gave real meaning to the term "Body Shop". I believe the output also enabled major strides in Deutsche Medical Science.
Those are called complimentary outputs in economics.

Yes some times economics merges with ROCK IT science
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by enqyoob »

Basically, if you do something that is fundamentally unsustainable (like our glorious Bombay textile mill unions did with Datta Samant in the 1980s) , you end up killing the goose that lays the golden eggs and you end up with nothing (the Bombay mill owners did fine in the end thank you, all those mill lands are now high rises and shopping malls, while the kids of the erstwhile workers will at best become some service providers and delivery boys to the malls and apts!).
Of course. But the counter-arguments are:
1. The Good Life becomes unsustainable when the imitators and "chop-shops" get into the business that you invented and scaled up, and their idea of "innovation" is just "cut cost".
2. Which means it is time to move on to other things where innovation enables a "monopoly" for a while before the crowds reach there too. Which is what the Mumbai Millowners did, and they do a lot to sustain the Mercedes Benz and Ferrari and Armani suit dealerships in India.

So by that scheme, it is evident that industries like auto, computers, furniture, shoes, purses, airplanes, clothes (except Designer rags), steel, all have become "too low" for the New Generation to do. Sitting in the "airconditioned offices" (remember Appam, the famous BRF Scholar?) was a big deal that divided the Evil Degenerate AmirKhanis from the Hardworking, No-Deodorant Desi Babu, but today look at Indian aphsars, just dus saal later! Whereas Amirkhana workplaces are kept at a sweaty 78 F, Indian offices and restaurants are kept at 60F! So it is time to close down Silicon Valley, Detroit and Seattle. What next? Nano tech? No, yaar, Tata makes Nano onlee. Genetics? Do we really need mutated DOOs -aren't T-Partiers mutated scary enough? Teachers? Nah! Wikipedia and the Disney Channel are all v need, and for Hire Ejjikashun, we have Tamil Nadu goondas and Malloo religious outfits taking the money that used to go to pay urchins to burn buses, and sprouting up Engineering Colleges faster than Henry Ford sent Model Ts off the assembly line. Pharmaceuticals? Reddygaro's Labs will take over the world with all patent-expired pills.

What's left are Medical Doctoring, Insurance scams and Lawyering and the other kind of Drug Dealing.

This means that Dera AmirKhana's future is to become the Theme Park for the brats of oil tycoons from Abu Dhabi and Brunei, DOO tycoons from desh, drug tycoons from Colombia and Mexico, Purse tycoons from Rizaldistan, and terrorists from Pakistan. Real estate is the only growth investment. Plus toilet paper, diapers (for the aging Guvrmand retirees living high on the hog) and Death Rays, since even the Eyeranians now have cruise mijjiles.

It has already happened to Japan, except that I don't see eating those worms in pink displayed in their shop windows as a vacation activity.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Hari Seldon »

This means that Dera AmirKhana's future is to become the Theme Park for the brats of oil tycoons from Abu Dhabi and Brunei, DOO tycoons from desh, drug tycoons from Colombia and Mexico, Purse tycoons from Rizaldistan, and terrorists from Pakistan. Real estate is the only growth investment. Plus toilet paper, diapers (for the aging Guvrmand retirees living high on the hog) and Death Rays, since even the Eyeranians now have cruise mijjiles.

It has already happened to Japan, except that I don't see eating those worms in pink displayed in their shop windows as a vacation activity.
aah, n^3 saar, now you're beginning to see the reason this dhaga is a D&G adda. Its coz it has kinda sorta figured out this essential truth only - that less than a qtr of the current popn levels are really needed to produce what the world currrently outputs only. WHat are the rest going to do? Consume, of course. But how to get them monies on the sly to continue consuming only, is the $64 question. Only.

Another great war may perhaps liven things up and bring the earth back into balance, some crazies in P5 war rooms might reckon, I fear. Time will tell, I guess. It has always, so far anyway.

Jai Hu, Jai Hu.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Hari Seldon »

There's a reason why UKstan almost copyrighted greatness, had it embedded into its name and all only. Here's why.

Anyone recall getting impressed with sri cameron's stellar moves - purposeful, knowledgeable and deliberate - to pull the ekhanomy outta the rut? I sure recall being impressed. Turns out the Ukonomy is depressed though, apne impress hone se kya hoga..

BOE Mulls ‘Second Wave’ of Stimulus
Bwahahahahahahaha.
Bank of England Governor Mervyn King may have to embark on a new round of bond purchases as Britain’s rebound from the worst recession since World War II fades.

Manufacturing, services and construction all faltered in August and the housing market weakened, surveys showed last week. That suggests 200 billion pounds ($309 billion) in bond purchases by the central bank since March 2009 and record-low interest rates may not be enough to keep up the economy’s momentum in the deepest budget squeeze in more than six decades.

“They are more likely to loosen policy further before they tighten it,” Alan Clarke, an economist at BNP Paribas in London, said in a telephone interview. “The danger is acting too late and not soon enough.”

BNP economist Clarke says Bank of England officials could probably justify further bond purchases using their new forecasts, though the current strength of price pressures makes it less palatable for them as they seek to preserve their inflation-fighting credentials.

“Clearly they are concerned that loosening in an environment where the latest GDP figure is 1.2 percent and the latest inflation figure is above 3 percent would undermine their credibility,” he said. “That’s the trap they’re in.”
And here's more:
U.K. Trade Deficit Widens to Record
The U.K.’s trade deficit widened to a record in July as purchases of chemicals and oil drove imports to the highest level in two years.

The goods-trade gap widened to 8.7 billion pounds ($13.4 billion) from 7.5 billion pounds and June, the Office for National Statistics said today in London. The median of 13 forecasts in a Bloomberg News survey was for a 7.5 billion-pound deficit. Exports fell 0.9 percent and imports rose 3.1 percent.

While the jump in imports may signal strength in domestic demand, weakening exports suggest the economy is failing to benefit from the weakness of the pound, which has fallen by a about a fifth on a trade-weighted basis since the start of 2007.
Yup, go for it UQ. I shall root for you all the way off the cliff you're dancing on. Queenie ki jai hore.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Bade »

This means that Dera AmirKhana's future is to become the Theme Park for the brats .
This was predicted here in BR even before this thread came into being. :-) Maybe higher education will be the only other long term survivor in Americana, though there are signs since this prediction was made, which shows the endowments are in bad shape too, just like the creaking infrastructure to support the mega-theme parks price-tiered for the rich and famous as well as the aam abdul vacationers from furrin lands.
essential truth only - that less than a qtr of the current popn levels are really needed to produce what the world currrently outputs only. WHat are the rest going to do? Consume, of course. But how to get them monies on the sly to continue consuming only, is the $64 question. Only.

Another great war may perhaps liven things up and bring the earth back into balance, some crazies in P5 war rooms might reckon, I fear. Time will tell, I guess. It has always, so far anyway.
Isn't it ironic that very high productivity implies we do not need a lot of hard working people, and all it needs is for one single entity (guvermand) to own everything like the China model, and keep printing vouchers(money) for people to collect food and other goods using a PDS system. Who wants balance when there is nothing to balance and energy from the Sun is free and in infinite supply - Kerala growth model from the feudal days of 400% satisfaction as attested by celebration of Onam. We have had three Onam celebrations in the DC metropolitan area this year itself.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Hari Seldon »

After all that '(re)productive economic activity' brouhaha, here's witness to the parasitic element of society in full flow (energized by gubmint bailout bournvita)
Mystery trader buys all Europe's cocoa
Even Willy Wonka might struggle to use this much chocolate. Yesterday, somebody bought 241,000 tonnes of cocoa beans.

It is unclear which person, or group of traders, was behind the deal, but it was the largest single cocoa trade for 14 years. The purchase was enough to move the entire global cocoa market, sending the price to the highest level since 1977, and triggering rumours and intrigue in the City.

Analysts said it was very unlikely that a chocolate company, such as Nestle or Kraft, or even their suppliers, would buy such a huge order in one go and that is was probable that one or a number of speculators, possibly hedge funds, had attempted to corner the market. By doing this, they would have control of the entire supply in Europe, forcing the price yet higher.

Eugen Weinberg, an analyst with Commerzbank, said: “For one buyer it would likely be a little bit too large. It would be a crazy number. That said, if you’re cornering the market ...”

“If it looks like cornering, feels like cornering and the price difference between Europe and the US is so large, it probably is cornering.”
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by ramana »

Hari Seldon, You can write a "New Brave World" encapsulating the ideas in your, Bade and N^3's posts. Atleast try to make a chapter outline.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Pulikeshi »

Dileep
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Dileep »

Hari Seldon wrote:Even Willy Wonka might struggle to use this much chocolate. Yesterday, somebody bought 241,000 tonnes of cocoa beans.
I have a better explanation. Software Bug!!
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Neshant »

enqyoob wrote:It is very interesting to see the attitude of some of the postors here towards the promises made by employers to people whom they hired, and who devoted their entire careers to that organization - which is what defined-benefit retirement plans are.
Public sector unions are good at bribing politicians and threatning society with strikes and shutdowns to enforce their agenda. Its all too easy for a politician who surely isn't around 40 years after the fact to promise a bag full of taxpayer's money to get himself elected by public sector employees. The 40 years is now and its all set to go boom.

Nobody negotiates on behalf of the taxpayer when it comes to handing out lavish salaries & gold plated pensions. Unlike the private sector where company owners will refuse to part with his own cash if he feels its not worth the market price, there is nobody who negotiates on behalf of the taxpayer.

Kind of silly to talk about honesty when the teacher's union is spending 200+ million in bribery (opps I mean lobby) fees for politicians in Cali to keep handing over taxpayers money. Nothing is going to change until this thing goes BOOM.

That aside, one wonders what will happen to the private sector which has to pay for these inflation indexed gold plated pensions. With bernanke bhai running his printing press at full power, they are not only having to pay more to cover the inflation indexed cost of public sector pensions, their static/declining wages are buying less. There are no automatic yearly wage increases, 3% at 50, pension padding, defined benefit plans, highest salary of 5 years payouts or any such scams in the private sector. No employer would stand for it.

It means there are going to be two classes in society : those who get good public sector pensions and those who have to pay for it.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by SwamyG »

Hari Seldon wrote: aah, n^3 saar, now you're beginning to see the reason this dhaga is a D&G adda. Its coz it has kinda sorta figured out this essential truth only - that less than a qtr of the current popn levels are really needed to produce what the world currrently outputs only. WHat are the rest going to do? Consume, of course.
Well put. This is what I have been asking all those people who claim how unemployed people can be re-educated and re-trained ityadi when Amirka ships jobs overseas. Wait a minute, maybe they can build a golden deity for Monsanto Corporation :-)
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by enqyoob »

that is was probable that one or a number of speculators, possibly hedge funds, had attempted to corner the market. By doing this, they would have control of the entire supply in Europe, forcing the price yet higher.
Someone should Google "Hunt Brothers & Silver". This is probably some 21-year-old who got this bright idea, and s(he) could not spell "COCA" so spelled it as "COCOA". They are going to go broke like the Hunt Bros did - several times.

Horrifying thought - Hope it wasn't my nephew 7 times removed who is practising his skills as a commodities trader. :eek: :shock:
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Neshant »

arnab wrote: So your definition of productivity is linked to profits. Since a government is not in the job of making profits therefore by definition it must be unproductive.
If it was productive, it would not need to be in the govt. The best way to prove it is to privatize it.
arnab wrote: You keep talking about 'printing counterfiet money' but you still haven't shown me where the inflation due to all this money printing is coming from? Or what the appropriate level of money supply ought to be?
Printing is a robbery of purchasing power of any worker who did an honest job to earn his money. The appropriate money supply is what the market deems is appropriate. Some clueless joker sitting at the top fiddling around with interest rate, money printing and pretending to know what ails the economy is only kidding himself. Actually he's kidding the people since he knows he's a fraud but he's there to pass off losses of his shareholder banks onto the backs of the public while trying to dazzle them with keynesian economic BS.
The public sector buys goods on behalf of the tax payer - so if you do not object to the PS using tax payer dollars for very expensive defence products
National defence & foreign policy is just about the only clearly defined role of a govt. That was what the federal govt was setup to do.
Re counterfeiting money to keep you working perpetually


Surely you are not dumb enough to believe such nonsense. I survive on the basis of my skills, innovation and hard work I bring to the table. Some idiot at the top who could not see he was sitting on the biggest financial bubble in history isn't going to save anyone other than his cronies the shareholder banks.

I have a job inspite of him not because of him. If counterfeiting money was good, we should all do it.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by ramana »

SwamyG wrote:
Hari Seldon wrote:
aah, n^3 saar, now you're beginning to see the reason this dhaga is a D&G adda. Its coz it has kinda sorta figured out this essential truth only - that less than a qtr of the current popn levels are really needed to produce what the world currrently outputs only. WHat are the rest going to do? Consume, of course.
Well put. This is what I have been asking all those people who claim how unemployed people can be re-educated and re-trained ityadi when Amirka ships jobs overseas. Wait a minute, maybe they can build a golden deity for Monsanto Corporation :-)

Maybe we see the One World Govt(defacto, if not dejure) that will print the wamapum to keep the 3/4 masses consuming and the rest 1/4 working!
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by enqyoob »

Neshant, the problem is not that there is no one negotiating for the taxpayer - it is that there are too many people lobbying for the VOTER (read "Vote Bank"). So the real problem is this thing where everyone gets to vote. Eliminate that and life gets a whole lot simpler.

In Dera CarterKhan, the Teachers scrambled to vote for Mr. Barnes for Guvnor, because he promised raises, then once he became Guvnor, he showed them :P so they made the difference in kicking him out as a 1-term Guvnor which has almost never happened b4 in Dera Carterkhan (pp; tend to do saashtang pranaam to whoever is Guvnor because He is The Boss). And voted in Chicken Perdue, who was a far, far worse deal. Now Barnes has "made peace" with the teachers, and is contesting again, because this time the alternative is T-Party Nathan Deal who won't show his tax returns (except the front page) because his company has been violating the Conflict of Interest rules in exchanging favors with the Guvrmand for 25 years.

Great Choice for most other voters: Stay home on election day.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Mort Walker »

National defence & foreign policy is just about the only clearly defined role of a govt. That was what the federal govt was setup to do.
The DoD has nearly $500 billion budget and is fraught with both government and contractor fraud, waste and abuse, but no one says anything as this money is recycled back through the "productive worker". US DoS has the brilliant individuals who have the flawed policy of providing TSP with billions in aid for the Jernails and Duspercentis - who then put resources in the hands of alkeeda.

I don't understand what the definition of productive is when the federal, state & local governments through direct employment or through contracts & grants provide the income for 1 out 3 persons in the US.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by SwamyG »

ramana wrote:Maybe we see the One World Govt(defacto, if not dejure) that will print the wamapum to keep the 3/4 masses consuming and the rest 1/4 working!
It depends on what the Corporations (private and public) really want. Once upon a time, the Kings controlled to a large extent what happened in their territories. These days, the Corporations control the Governments. So if the Corporations want single government that is what the World will have, if they think having smaller governments is beneficial to them, then that is how the dice will role. Shakuni is on their side.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by ramana »

I think the pols allow the Corps to think they own everyone else. Its the pols who own the Corps. No Corp can be as big as the country in which it is located and becomes clear at time of bailout. We can see this from the South Sea bubble days in Europe.

Once upon a time the slogan was "Whats good for GM, is good for US!"
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by SwamyG »

Corps are now bigger than some countries, no? And the concept of Corporations is butting is head against the concept of Nation-States, no?

BTW, what is "pols" ?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Neshant »

Mort Walker wrote: The DoD has nearly $500 billion budget and is fraught with both government and contractor fraud, waste and abuse,
This is the whole point behind small government and honest money. Honest money in particular shuts down this racket fast as any spending spree requires the citizenry to be immediately taxed to raise revenue or to cut spending some place else. Naturally raising taxes on people won't go down well for any politician.

Only one state in America is currently not in debt. I think its Nebraska although I may be wrong on this. The reason is the state has a law which bans the govt from going into debt. If politicians start handing out freebies, it has to be paid for out of pocket on the spot. No IOUs, no debt..etc. That keeps the books straight and to some extent the politicians honest.

Although I must admit, I'm not sure exactly how one would go about dealing with military contracts to eliminate corruption other than to say small govt will significantly reduce opportunities to raid taxpayers.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Hari Seldon »

Chalo, at least AEP is optimistic:
Link
The United States, Japan and large parts of Europe have exhausted their policy arsenal, leaving them defenceless against a double-dip recession as recovery slows to ‘stall speed’. "The US has run out of bullets," said Nouriel Roubini, professor at New York University, and one of a caste of luminaries with grim forecasts at the annual Ambrosetti conference on Lake Como. "More quantitative easing (bond purchases) by the Federal Reserve is not going to make any difference. Treasury yields are already down to 2.5pc yet credit spreads are widening again. Monetary policy can boost liquidity but it can’t deal with solvency problems," he told Europe’s policy elite.
Yawn. What's with all the doomers citing, quoting and referencing one another only? Sound somewhat like the socialist scam where lifafa jholawalas will refer to one another in fromt of third parties with adjectives like "eminent", "prominent", "famous", "brilliant" and so on, eh?
Dr Roubini said the US growth rate was likely to fall below 1pc in the second half of the year, despite the biggest stimulus in history: a cut in interest rates from 5pc to zero, a budget deficit of 10pc of GDP, and $3 trillion to shore up the financial system.

{That's impressive firepower right there. Let none accuse the Fed of holding back any. But what's the use of throwing megaton energy into pushing a string? Demand for credit has all but evaporated amongst the "productive" segments of the private economy. Note: Demand as in willingness + ability to re-pay. No amount of 0% rates will help at this point or splurging borrowed money as stimulus either.}

The anaemic pace compares with rates of 4pc-6pc at this stage of recovery in normal post-war recoveries. "We have reached stall speed. Any shock at this point can tip you back into recession. With interbank spreads rising, you can get a vicious circle like 2008-2009," he said, describing a self-feeding process as the real economy and the credit system hurt each other. "There is a 40pc chance of double-dip recession in the US, and worse in Japan. Even if it is not technically a recession it will feel like it," he added.
40% chance, eh? Not 39% or 41%, eh? Gotta admire the precision with which these numbers are flung into the air, hoping to latch onto some media choppers if not the famous Bernake helicopter itself...heh heh.
Hans-Werner Sinn, head of Germany’s IFO Institute, said the US would have to purge its debt excesses the hard way. "The bitter truth is that there is no way out of this with monetary and fiscal policy. They will just have to see their living standards go down. I see a decade of difficulties for the US," he said.
{such bluntness. No wonder the sriman is from germany which happens to be doing fine this downturn.}

Dr Sinn said the US the market for mortgage securities (CDOs) had collapsed from $1.9 trillion in 2006 to just $50bn last year, :eek: leaving the US property market reliant on federal agencies.

{Awrite. Here's the bottomline....}
"The world is simply not willing to buy these dubious financial products again. Germany is leaving, China is no longer there, and Japan is pulling away. The US system of mortgage finance is on government life support and that cannot drive a sustainable upswing," he said.
And lez thank sri YV Reddy for anticipating the mess and steering Yindian institutions clear of the toxic mess the yanks peddled with all gusto 3 short yrs ago.

Meanwhile, PRC's moves aren't going unnoticed or unadmired.
Harvard Professor Niall Ferguson said the US has exhausted fiscal stimulus given warnings from the Congressional Budget Office that interest payments as a share of tax revenues will reach 20pc by 2020 and 36pc by 2030 without drastic retrenchment. "The fiscal crisis seems to be out of control. The 'big crossover’ is approaching when the US spends more on debt service costs than on security, and historically that is the tipping point for any global power," he said.
Yawn.
Mr Ferguson said the "Chimerica" marriage of recent years is on the rocks. China is no longer willing to fund the US Treasury bond market, cutting its share of holdings from 13pc to 10pc of the total debt stock.

While China must find ways to recycle its trade surplus and hold down the yuan, it is doing this by stockpiling commodities, buying hard assets around the world, or rotating into Asian bonds.
Dr Roubini said US companies have plenty of cash but are boosting profits by a policy of "slash and burn" on labour costs. "We’ve lost 8.4m jobs and if you include the loss of hours worked it is equivalent to another 3m. We need to generate an extra 450,000 jobs every month for three years to get it back," he said.

The US non-farm payrolls data released on Friday was better then expected but still showed a net loss of 54,000 jobs. Dr Roubini said average public debt in the rich countries would rise to 120pc of GDP by 2015 in the rich countries, leaving no scope for a further fiscal stimulus. If they push their luck, they too risk the sort of bond crises seen in Southern Europe this year.
Unwarranted alarmism. US will never be where southern EU was yesterday. Period. Apples and pineapples comparison, IMHO.
In the US, the fiscal boost has faded, switching to tightening over coming months The lift from the inventory cycle is finished. Capex spending by companies has held up well, but this slowed sharply in July. Housing is already in a double dip. The last support for the US economy is consumption, barely growing at 1pc. "All we did was kick the can down the road and stole demand from the future," he said.
Sounds more and more like 'settled' issues that have reached a consensus among thread regulars, at least, eh? :) chalo, bhai, jai ho.

read it all, of course.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Mort Walker »

Government debt has to be categorized as federal, state and city/municipal. Getting a handle on this is important and many times you can't make sense of it all based on the various news articles that have their own political agenda. To compound the problem, personal debt in the west is also very high. The total debt per-capita, both public and private, is unsustainable.

That said, what is the total debt to GDP ratio in the western developed economies including personal debt? This is a figure we don't see often.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Singha »

about when the caliphate's armies are gearing up, the police has to be downsized. good luck UK. some areas can be 'ceded' and
handed over to sharia police no doubt.

BBC:

Hampshire police plans to cut 1,400 jobs

The force had already approved plans to share two helicopters with Surrey and Sussex

Hampshire Constabulary plans to axe 1,400 posts - 20% of its workforce - including police officers.

Forces are facing government cuts of 25%, with Hampshire reducing its budget by £70m (25%) over the next four years.

The job losses will see redundancies, positions left unfilled, redeployments and voluntary redundancies.

Unions are to discuss the plans, which will go before the police authority. Southampton MP Alan Whitehead said the government was "letting people down".

The force, which employs about 6,700 staff, also plans to share and sell buildings and increase collaboration with other forces, especially Thames Valley.
'Hands tied'

It had already approved plans to scrap its spotter plane and instead share two helicopters with the Sussex and Surrey forces.

While plans for a new headquarters were put on hold amid the government cuts.

We have been saying that the dark days of policing will come and I am afraid that they have arrived”

End Quote John Apter Hampshire Police Federation chairman

Hampshire Police Federation admitted Chief Constable Alex Marshall was trying to provide a service with his "hands tied behind his back".

Mr Marshall said: "I know all our staff join the constabulary to do the best job they can and that the changes ahead will be difficult for everyone.

"This uncertainty is unsettling and there is a human story and personal consequence every time someone leaves."

No details have been released on the specific number of officers, police community support officers (PCSOs) and staff who face the axe.

Steve Mote, divisional manager for Victim Support Hampshire and the Isle of Wight, said: "At the end of the day, crime is still going to happen and they are still going to be responding to it.

"Police will have to consider how to be smarter and how they can do the best with their resources.

"Our reassurance to victims would be, 'we're still going to be here', and anyone can contact us even if they're not referred to us by the police."
'Dark days'

The plan would see the force restructured with locally-based PCSOs, police officers, special constables and police staff working to a local policing area based around council boundaries.

John Apter, chairman of Hampshire Police Federation, said the workforce had "known for several weeks things look very bleak for the future".

"We have been saying that the dark days of policing will come and I am afraid that they have arrived," he said.
Chief Constable Alex Marshall Chief Constable Alex Marshall admitted it was an unsettling time

"These cuts will have a massive impact on policing, especially on visibility."

Mr Whitehead, Labour MP for Southampton Test, said: "Bobbies on the beat make us all feel safer in our homes and communities.

"These cuts are just another example of how the Tory-Lib Dem government is letting people down."

Donna Jones, who represents the Conservatives on Portsmouth City Council, blamed the previous government's "financial mismanagement" for the scale of the cuts.

She added: "It is always very sad when any public service is cut, however I believe the chief constable has given it much consideration.

"We can't forget why we are in this position in the first place, because of the financial mismanagement of the previous Labour government which left us such a huge deficit to tackle.

"I do not have a concern crime will rise significantly as I understand the focus will still be on the frontline."
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Singha »

perhaps such essential things like police and crime branch can be left unchanged if hyper expensive toys like new carriers, vanguards , astutes and eurofighters were shelved.

afaik, englands revenue stream as a shelter of last resort for the world's most successful thieves, oligarchs, financial criminals and hedge funds will not be hurt if global power projection capabilities are relinquished in favour of a strong regional force. the "umbrella" will never be withdrawn by unkil because UK is the unsinkable carrier sited to patrol the
GIUK gap.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Neshant »

The Federal Reserve has run out of bullets
They may be out of bullets.

But they're not out of bombs
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by shyam »

Neshant wrote:
The Federal Reserve has run out of bullets
They may be out of bullets.

But they're not out of bombs
http://www.businessinsider.com/bernanke ... mbs-2010-9
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Sanjay M »

(TIME)Greece's Painful Road to Economic Recovery

Even after a 110-billion euro bail out and the introduction of severe austerity measures, Greece's economy is still shrinking faster than expected. Can the nation rebound?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Pulikeshi »

A fundamental misunderstanding of the role of the Fed - The article is the bomb!
Whether you agree with the Fed's existence or not...
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Hari Seldon »

ramana wrote:Hari Seldon, You can write a "New Brave World" encapsulating the ideas in your, Bade and N^3's posts. Atleast try to make a chapter outline.
Saar, I don't have enough material yet to write anything more than a few paragraphs, forget an entire chapter. The situ is evolving still. The introduction has been discussed, the implications and the response to the same is yet to be seen.

How 'civilized' democracies deal with the problems of rationing essentials - credit, healthcare and the like among a population with structurally over-high employment for a long time to come and insolvent pension+retirement commitments is yet to be seen. Early days yet to say where this is going. Needless to say, am watching with great interest (and more than a touch of anxiety as well).
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by abhischekcc »

So UK has begun to cut down on police?
How long before crime rates begin to climb up, especially given that many criminals now come from a 'particular' community which has a known penchance to up violence at any and every excuse.

Parts of Britain and London will become no-go areas for the police, and many years down the line, will have to use the army to 'open' up. Just like Kashmir Valley and the many 'mini-Pakistans' in different cities in India.

Britain will get its just desserts. They have been f*cking India with creating pakistan, stoking up the Kashmir Valley, then accusing us of human rights violations and what not. It is time they experience the full blown Islamic way of silent conquest.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 201

Post by Sanjay M »

I still want to ask again - where is the best place to shift money to minimize/mitigate its exposure to the future decline of the US dollar? Which economy or asset pool is best place to ride out that event?

I understand that commodities, including gold, are useful for this. But I'd be worried that even their prices would drop as a result of US-led global economic downturn. If the dollar is much lower, then the economies of those who export to them would also take a dive.
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