Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

[shravan]

^^ You don't know who is Lal Brof. ?

[shiv]

No! Who is Lal Brof? He cannot be Indian - his sbelling is too poor.

[shiv]

We actually display the virtues of a dog that has benen repeatedly thrashed by its master and keeps on wagging its tail,cringing in behaviour,hoping that its master will throw a few crumbs to it if it displays such a "non-violent" attitude!.

An entire conference of piskologists will not be able to sum up contemporary Indian history so well.

[rohitvats]

<SNIP>.....We actually display the virtues of a dog that has benen repeatedly thrashed by its master and keeps on wagging its tail,cringing in behaviour,hoping that its master will throw a few crumbs to it if it displays such a "non-violent" attitude! In real fact,only if it threatens to bite or bites its violent master,will its master be more careful and considerate in treating his dog.I do not see any chance that under our good doctor and peddlar of snake-oil and the "peace" pipe,will we display any other vritue other than that of the cringing dog.

Philip, I'm using the above logic in the China thead on this forum to deflate the peace quotient of a gentleman.

[Avinash R]

12 killed, 24 injured in suicide blast in Pakistan
Jan 30 05:28 PM


No respite in site for Baloch people as military, intelligence still rules in Pak
Sat, Jan 30 04:50 PM

[abhijitm]

Americans warned against travel to India

Is this some kind of game being played by TSP? First make a ferocious attack on India's financial center and then months after months keep leaking rumors of another attack so that Indian tourism and overall security arrangement is always questionable to the world.

.. and GOI and DDM are falling a complete prey to these tactics.

[Guddu]

C'mon guys, it is over. We should stop this immature discussion of abondoning Pak players in IPL. His excelency The Prime Minister Dr. MMS has a different opinion than all of us here. We should now start showing respect and not criticise Dr.Singh. Otherwise we all will be Hindutvavaadis and someone gets twists in the dhothi/lungi/pants and brand the reputation of our respected forum. We need to take care of this extreme sensitive issue with maturity.

I think that article about MMS is a plant...or perhaps for paki H&D consumption onlee

[Kati]

Hi All,

1. Track-II diplomacy was in full force on the margin of recently concluded Jaipur Literary Festival (jaipur Heritage Festival???). WKK brigade was there in full force.

2. Uncle and Aunty (mainly Aunty) was there with their money bags.

3. Uncle and Aunty want India and tsp To talk AND DIFFUSE THE TENSION. wHY?
So that they can tackle Afghanistan - make the way for the West/NATO to cut and
run home. Enough of this democracy building for the West.

4. IPL saga was the Indian elite's (super rich - different from WKK-walas) message to TSP
that we can choke your part of money supply. That message has been sent, and now we can do business again.

........

More later

[vishal]

Back with a bang: Suicide blast kills 12 in Bajaur

[R Vaidya]

Post Lunch session has started with two sixers - 12-
We should concentrate on this rather than other OT issues
R Vaidya

[Atri]

I feel bad to say this - but it appears that India needs another couple of 26/11 attacks before a sufficient mass of Indians understand what Pakistaniyat means. There may be no alternative to war with Pakistan.

But Shiv ji, what after war? In GOI ready to liquidate land of pure and take care of the mess that will follow? Is Unkil and world ready?

IMO, in case of next 26/11, India should at least invade POK and establish link with AFG and break Chipanda-Paki territorial contiguity. There is nothing India can do to stop terrorism emanating from TSP, except wait for world-opinion to form and a contingency plan to handle the subsequent mess.

[arun]

While all the screaming over the IPL slight goes on in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, the Pakistan Rupee’s performance mirrors the Pakistan cricket team’s performance in Australia:

Pakistani rupee falls to new low of 85.08 to dollar

Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:49pm IST

KARACHI, Jan 30 (Reuters) - The Pakistani rupee fell to a new low on Saturday because of high demand for dollars to pay for imports and dealers said they expected the currency to remain under pressure.

The rupee was quoted closing at 85.05/10 to the dollar compared with Friday's close of 84.80/85.

"The weakest trade was made at 85.08," said a currency dealer in Karachi.

That compared with the previous record low of 84.90 set earlier this month.................

Reuters

[arun]

Back with a bang: Suicide blast kills 12 in Bajaur

The death toll in today’s demonstration of the IED Mubarak variant of the IEDology of Pakistan has climbed to 14:

Bomb blast in NW Pakistan kills 14

[abhijitm]

I feel bad to say this - but it appears that India needs another couple of 26/11 attacks before a sufficient mass of Indians understand what Pakistaniyat means. There may be no alternative to war with Pakistan.

Not enough. really.

We never had peace with TSP. In my entire lifetime I dont recall such period. Only some lean period when a dictator rules them.

We can easily forget
1. thousands of deaths in Kashmir by pakistan
2. displacement of pundits from Kashmir
3. Once a beautiful tourist destination turned into hell
4. khalistan support by pakistan
5. thousands of deaths by pakistan trained khalistani terrorists
6. Murder of Gen. Vaidya by pakistan trained terrorists
7. blasts after blasts in Mumbai by pakistan
8. Kargil, martyr of hundreds of soldiers
9. parliament attack
10. protection to Dawood, Shakil
11. addressing militants as strategic assets
12. not to forget 47, 65, 71 wars
13. 26/11
14. constant threat of militant attack by pakistan

no sir, if we can forget everything then only couple of more 26/11 wont change a thing. Every sense of patriotism in India is momentary and sensational. Like hangover it disappears. Only few of us remain to wonder.

[Chandragupta]

I feel bad to say this - but it appears that India needs another couple of 26/11 attacks before a sufficient mass of Indians understand what Pakistaniyat means. There may be no alternative to war with Pakistan.

Shiv ji, by making such statements you're doubting the level of cowardice that this Indian guborment is capable of stooping to. 26/11 was a shock to the entire Indian elite & our WKK brigade, they were not ready for this. Till then, they had only seen either yindoo bhakts being blown to pieces in Hanuman temples or poor SDREs traveling in overcrowded Mumbai local trains. Who thought about kaanta-chaku using, suited booted, high flying targets being killed in five star hotels?! Now they have seen that too, what difference has it made? Nada.

Indian masses can do jackshit when there is no opposition, no press & nobody to hear their voices. The patriotism dies a slow & painful death at the hands of everyday challenges that the common man has to face and all that initial hysteria achieves ****** all.

[/rant]

[AnimeshP]

<SNIP>.....We actually display the virtues of a dog that has benen repeatedly thrashed by its master and keeps on wagging its tail,cringing in behaviour,hoping that its master will throw a few crumbs to it if it displays such a "non-violent" attitude! In real fact,only if it threatens to bite or bites its violent master,will its master be more careful and considerate in treating his dog.I do not see any chance that under our good doctor and peddlar of snake-oil and the "peace" pipe,will we display any other vritue other than that of the cringing dog.

Philip, I'm using the above logic in the China thead on this forum to deflate the peace quotient of a gentleman.

Philip & rohitvats ...I think this sanskrit shlok provides the best summary for what you both are saying ...
"Asvam naova Gajam naova vyaagam naova ca naova ca a
AjaaPutram bailam dvait\ dovaao duba-lagaatk aa"

meaning
"Horse (Ashwam)? - No, Elephant (Gajam)? - No, Tiger (VyaGhram)?? - No,Not at all!!
Only the baby goat (AjaaPutram) is sacrificed during any ritual.
Conclusion is that even God does not protect the weak!!"

[krithivas]

Two possibilities:
1) Uncle Sam has not yet disbursed the check to TSPA; or,
2) Uncle Sam's check bounced.
In either case this orchestration is a gentle reminder to Uncle Sam that Pakistan "still" is a victim of terrorism.

Back with a bang: Suicide blast kills 12 in Bajaur

The death toll in today’s demonstration of the IED Mubarak variant of the IEDology of Pakistan has climbed to 14:

Bomb blast in NW Pakistan kills 14

[shiv]

Back with a bang: Suicide blast kills 12 in Bajaur

The death toll in today’s demonstration of the IED Mubarak variant of the IEDology of Pakistan has climbed to 14:

Bomb blast in NW Pakistan kills 14

Only 14
After 1 month?
Whose side are you on Taliban? The righteous or the munafiq?

[Gerard]

IED mubarak and blessings from national bird
Pakistan: 25 dead in suicide bomb, US missile hit

[Prem]

IED mubarak and blessings from national bird
Pakistan: 25 dead in suicide bomb, US missile hit

Praise the Lord Jinna, Pakistan and Pakinsaneat are back with blast to celebrate Regular Jumma Special Festivities.

[rohiths]

Praise the Lord Jinna, Pakistan and Pakinsaneat are back with blast to celebrate Regular Jumma Special Festivities.

Some of the jingos are thinking that the celebrations have dulled since the new year. Fortunately that is not the case. Lots of runs are being scored in singles and in twos.

Either the suicide bombings are hardly news in Pakistan or jernails are exhibiting tactical brilliance by not letting the news out

Check SATP for regular updates.
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... index.html

[kenop]

Two possibilities:
1) Uncle Sam has not yet disbursed the check to TSPA; or,
2) Uncle Sam's check bounced.
In either case this orchestration is a gentle reminder to Uncle Sam that Pakistan "still" is a victim of terrorism.

Audit reveals slow progress in US aid to Pakistan

ISLAMABAD -- A $46 million dollar American development program in Pakistan's tribal regions has made little progress since it began in 2008, according to a government audit that shows the challenges facing Washington as it prepares to boost aid there to blunt the appeal of al-Qaida and the Taliban.

[A_Gupta]

What the GoI is doing is desperately attempting not to whip up a public frenzy against Pakistan due to any reason. If that happens the GoI may be forced to go to war which they don't want. Now that war may come if Pakistan conducts another 26/11.

There is a different possibility. POTUS Obama raised it yesterday with the Republicans in his televised q&a session with them. (If you follow US politics, I advise watching it - a real tour de force on the part of the President).

One of the points Obama raised is that politicians have to be careful of the rhetoric they use. Once you tell your constituents that the President is destroying the country you cannot then turn around and say, let's negotiate with him. The rhetoric boxes you into a corner.

We do not want the Indian government to give up any of its options, which include diplomacy. Therefore we should expect only measured statements w.r.t. Pakistan from the Prime Minister, Minister of External Affairs, etc.

However, it is absolutely essential that during any possible negotations, the GOI should be able to point to strong and influential public opinion as constraining them in any possible deal. In particular, the proposals had better be very good to even get started. Politicians everywhere understand that to expect courage of other politicians - deliberate flouting of public opinion - is next to impossible.

Therefore, definitely be as influential and loud as you can be in raising the Indian public's knowledge of Pakistaniyat. But don't lightly demean the Prime Minister. You must have serious charges and evidence to do so.

[Virupaksha]

One of the points Obama raised is that politicians have to be careful of the rhetoric they use. Once you tell your constituents that the President is destroying the country you cannot then turn around and say, let's negotiate with him. The rhetoric boxes you into a corner.

The president/PM should not. What happened to the 2nd state foreign affairs minister? What is he for?
Well the PM can always shut up than signing horrors like SeS and then making the poor 2nd state foreign minister , Tharoor, sprout nonsense like SeS type statements signed by the highest level of govt, PM as toilet paper and not worth the paper it is signed on .

You see, in India, it is not the rhetoric which is the problem. It is the absolute lack of it, which is the problem.

Since every one is telling fables. Let me add another one. A sadhu sees a poisonous snake, impresses it and asks it not to kill anyone. The villagers in the area slowly realised that this snake doesnt bite and starting treating it like cr*p. The sadhu passes the village once again. The snake shows his bruises from villagers and says see what reward I got. The sadhu laughed and said "I asked you not to kill, but did not ask you to stop hissing or showing your fangs".

We are that snake taking bruises from everyone and anyone because we refuse to stand up and value ourselves.

semi whining take it fwiw.

[CRamS]

SS ji Siddharth Vardarajan can afford to make ostensible intelligent statements for its been more than a year since 26/11 took place now every peacemonger can come out of the woodwork and talk about re-initiating the dialogue process and I am afraid to admit that people at large will endorse such views and to be honest we cannot complain about it for this is but human nature .

India's case is akin to the guy in a bar room brawl who after getting hit yelps "Ok hit me another time and I will..." and then "Wham" again "Hit me another ..." circus continues .

This Dork has always been soft on TSP. It requires Bill O'Rielly, Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck type hyper nationalists in India to expose and balance out the likes of him. Comparisons with US are always faulty, but in US media largely reflects the populace: from white nationalism, to sports, to obsession with sex, food. In India its the other way around. The latent Hindu nationalism is not represented in the media. Or perhahs it is? Recall, Indian media goes bersek every time the west says or does something positive about India however superficial. And Indian public goes euphoric even if it is spat upon like Slum dog Oscars.

That said, I am wary of Shiv Sena type crass nationalism. I don't like SRK's soft attitude towards TSP, but by Shiv Sena turning its guns on SRK and Amir Khan, it runs the risk of communal warfare; exactly what TSP and maasa would like to see for their own respective reasons. The most effective way to neutralize TSP sympathizers is by undermining them through words and arguments and shaming them before the Indian public so they loose their iconic status by rejecting the nonsensical movies they make.

[A_Gupta]

ravi_ku: Another fable is that of the Monkey Trap (posted on BR : )
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... ayyam.html

We see Pakistan is bound almost into self-destruction by its own narrative about itself. India should never constrain itself in a similar way.

[harbans]

^^^

Hardline 'right' Hindu groups like SS, Bajrang Dal function somewhat like mirror images of Islamic hardline groups. They are not 'nationalist' in a sense 'you or i' are. Their moral values reflect more of victorian and Islamic morality than traditional Dharmic values. Thats why they sort of repel people from Dharmic religion, and since they cannot implement harsh measures to those who criticize and ridicule them openly, resort to boorish and rogue tactics, again a negative blot on Dharmic faith, much contrary to their stated goals. That's also why they are ridiculed and joked at. Look no one really ridicules and jokes on hard-line Islamic groups, principally because there is a very serious doctrinal threat sanctioned for those who do so. Moreover their antics get unproportionately large and massive coverage in the West and Islamic media.

More so like many of us who speak the truth plainly are incorrectly along with these types and ridiculed by the WKK types or the leftists. So the SS and these groups do a very big disfavor to the country in that sense.

We need nationalist groups that speak the truth plainly against narrow minded goons on either side of the communal divide and carry a big stick to make it clear they mean business.

[CRamS]

harbans:

I agree but with one difference. Hardline Hindu right groups like SS, BD etc are mirror images of Isalmists, but they differ signficantly: in TSP's case, can you deny that LeT is serving TSP's interests? In contrast, SS and BD are not only a national disgrace by going after innocent defensless migrant labourers from Bihar/UP, they are linguistc, regionalist chauvinists so contray to national spirt, above all cowards of the fist order. However abhorrent it might seem, imagine we had SS and BD going after RAPE in Lahore/Pindi just as LeT goes after our cities; that would have been the real equal equal. And then the piss process would have been: you bottle up your LeT boys and we stop our SS BD boys .

[Nandu]

I decided to tune in to the TV last night and saw a 'Left, Right & Centre' debate in NDTV with Siddharth Varadarajan, Sharmila Tagore and Ravi Shankar Prasad on the panel. I could catch only the last moments of the debate on how to deal with Pakistan.

Sharmila Tagore, the actress or Sarmila Bose, the holocaust denier? I see both names being used in later rants.

[Nandu]

r. However abhorrent it might seem, imagine we had SS and BD going after RAPE in Lahore/Pindi just as LeT goes after our cities; that would have been the real equal equal. And then the piss process would have been: you bottle up your LeT boys and we stop our SS BD boys .

CRamS, it is not about abhorrence, it is about blowback. LeT can do what they do because the Paki establishment systematically nurtured them, but then look at what they and their ilk are doing to Pakistan. We don't want a mirror of them in India, not because of some moral code, but because it will end up tearing India apart.

[harbans]

Agreed, and i implied the same. LeT is hardcore Paki nationalist. Their aims and ideology is same. Groups like SS and BD as you mention are chauvinist in every sense of the word, and can hardly be called 'nationalist'. They have no doctrinal motivation like Jihad that the LeT or AQ affiliated folks carry. So while these groups try and show fangs, everyone knows they don't have that. I have always maintained with a lot of consistency that all battles are of doctrine alone. Whether it pious vs less pious, India-Pakistan, India-China, USA-Russia all revolve around fundamental differences in doctrine. The Macaulyte, Pseudo secular feudal mindsets have been numbed into thinking away from doctrine for solutions. Like 'peacemaker' in the China threads. If your fundamental doctrine is nearer the TRUTH, it should stand. There must be self confidence in defending your value systems, else you don't believe in it. We will keep bartering land making excuses like 'not a blade of grass grows' or 'China also has a world view of Ancient China extending into India' etc so lets barter/ give away territory, it will appease them. This stems from a fundamental lack of understanding and appreciating what the Chakra in the Ashok Chakra stands for.

[anjan]

said "I asked you not to kill, but did not ask you to stop hissing or showing your fangs".

We are that snake taking bruises from everyone and anyone because we refuse to stand up and value ourselves.

semi whining take it fwiw.

There is also the saying that if you unsheathe your sword then you must draw blood. Can India go to war with Pakistan today? I'd say not. A covert war? Yes but either it's been ineffective in killing the people we've heard of or it's effective in those places that don't come on the news.

Wars are not bloodless. A war with Pakistan today risks destroying large parts of India and setting our economy back by a decade at the least. Any thoughts of catching up with China would be finished. A decade from then we'd be to China what Pakistan is to us. Anyway what after such a war? It looks like the scenario envisaged is a strike limited in depth into Pakistan. The TSPA will continue to exist. What stops China from paying them to continue? So do we go further? Do we occupy Pakistan? Do we allow another power to occupy Pakistan? I'm not thrilled about committing the armed forces and the nation to a war with no clear idea and no clear objective.

I think eventually Pakistan must be allowed to self destruct. Economically we must make it painful for TSP and for its sponsors to continue to prop them up. Till that time there is little that we can do but batten down the hatches and try everything we can to secure ourselves short of going to war. We may still end up going to war but let us atleast try to tilt the dice as much in our favour as possible.

I wonder if there is a way to quantify how economically damaging the terrorist attacks are to us, to include things like lost opportunities die to threat perception. We could then compare it to the expected cost of a war.

[Bhaskar]

said "I asked you not to kill, but did not ask you to stop hissing or showing your fangs".

We are that snake taking bruises from everyone and anyone because we refuse to stand up and value ourselves.

semi whining take it fwiw.

There is also the saying that if you unsheathe your sword then you must draw blood. Can India go to war with Pakistan today? I'd say not. A covert war? Yes but either it's been ineffective in killing the people we've heard of or it's effective in those places that don't come on the news.

Wars are not bloodless. A war with Pakistan today risks destroying large parts of India and setting our economy back by a decade at the least. Any thoughts of catching up with China would be finished. A decade from then we'd be to China what Pakistan is to us. Anyway what after such a war? It looks like the scenario envisaged is a strike limited in depth into Pakistan. The TSPA will continue to exist. What stops China from paying them to continue? So do we go further? Do we occupy Pakistan? Do we allow another power to occupy Pakistan? I'm not thrilled about committing the armed forces and the nation to a war with no clear idea and no clear objective.

I think eventually Pakistan must be allowed to self destruct. Economically we must make it painful for TSP and for its sponsors to continue to prop them up. Till that time there is little that we can do but batten down the hatches and try everything we can to secure ourselves short of going to war. We may still end up going to war but let us atleast try to tilt the dice as much in our favour as possible.

I wonder if there is a way to quantify how economically damaging the terrorist attacks are to us, to include things like lost opportunities die to threat perception. We could then compare it to the expected cost of a war.

India can start a war with Pakistan whenever it wants. Pakistan wanted to start a war by funding their spy agency which funded the 26/11 attacks.
India, even today, if feels Pakistan is funding terrorists or has intel of a terror camp somewhere near the Indo-Pak border, it can, without much of world's outcry, air strike that location.
Will that set off a complete all out war? Possibly not. Pressure from the US will make sure Pakistan doesnt retaliate. Nor would it be in India's interest to set off an all out war.

Rather than doing all this, India is already destroying Pakistan with the help of US and other countries. US' pressure on Pakistan is making sure ISI doesn't fund another 26/11, also, by running the Taliban away from Afghanistan, Taliban has no choice but to destroy Pakistan which ironically once funded the Taliban. India on the other side is making sure these terrorists do not spill over to India. Leaving they got no place to go or destroy then Pakistan itself.
Pakistan is going to boil over and will be destroyed. As long as Balochi separatists keep the pressure up, Pakistan's will start concentrating on Balochistan rather than Kashmir.
India should now, morally support the Balochi separatists as it will add fuel to the fire.
Possibly if India does deploy troops to Afghanistan in the near future, Pakistan would be simply crumble due to India's complete control of the Sub-continent.
Possibly then, you would start seeing Pakistan fall into different pieces.

[RamaY]

^^^

Hardline 'right' Hindu groups like SS, Bajrang Dal function somewhat like mirror images of Islamic hardline groups. They are not 'nationalist' in a sense 'you or i' are. Their moral values reflect more of victorian and Islamic morality than traditional Dharmic values. Thats why they sort of repel people from Dharmic religion, and since they cannot implement harsh measures to those who criticize and ridicule them openly, resort to boorish and rogue tactics, again a negative blot on Dharmic faith, much contrary to their stated goals. That's also why they are ridiculed and joked at. Look no one really ridicules and jokes on hard-line Islamic groups, principally because there is a very serious doctrinal threat sanctioned for those who do so. Moreover their antics get unproportionately large and massive coverage in the West and Islamic media.

More so like many of us who speak the truth plainly are incorrectly along with these types and ridiculed by the WKK types or the leftists. So the SS and these groups do a very big disfavor to the country in that sense.

We need nationalist groups that speak the truth plainly against narrow minded goons on either side of the communal divide and carry a big stick to make it clear they mean business.

harbans:

I agree but with one difference. Hardline Hindu right groups like SS, BD etc are mirror images of Isalmists, but they differ signficantly: in TSP's case, can you deny that LeT is serving TSP's interests? In contrast, SS and BD are not only a national disgrace by going after innocent defensless migrant labourers from Bihar/UP, they are linguistc, regionalist chauvinists so contray to national spirt, above all cowards of the fist order. However abhorrent it might seem, imagine we had SS and BD going after RAPE in Lahore/Pindi just as LeT goes after our cities; that would have been the real equal equal. And then the piss process would have been: you bottle up your LeT boys and we stop our SS BD boys .

Great Anal-sys to do a glorious equal-equal between LeT and SS/BD type organizations. It is not only OT but also unnecessary. There is nothing wrong in not-liking SS/BD or even criticizing them. But drawing parallels with LeT? Are you guys insane?

[Muppalla]

PEACE MEANS THE SUMMER OF 1965 - MJ Akbar

Those who want to reverse the reality of 1947 are either fanatics or fools. [Terrible as they are, the former could be less troublesome than the latter.]

India and Pakistan are separate nations, and may they retain their present borders for eternity.

Those Pakistanis dreaming of breaking India should be sent to a mental asylum, where they can befriend those Indians who want to capture Islamabad.

There is a duality but not a contradiction running through the complexities of the India-Pakistan relationship. Friday's newspapers, for instance, reported a confrontation between Home Minister P. Chidambaram and Prime Minister Yousaf Gilani: the former is convinced that Islamabad is protecting the widely-acknowledged principal architect of the 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks, Hafiz Saeed, chief of the Lashkar-e-Tayyaba. Gilani thinks India has not supplied sufficient evidence against Saeed. Chidambaram counters this with, "What can I do if a Government closes its eyes to the evidence?"

Outside the squat offices of power, a virtual festival of Indo-Pak peace is being celebrated in major Indian cities, with full participation by Pakistani writers, musicians and its cultural elite. Why isn't this a contradiction?

There has always been a peace constituency in both India and Pakistan , but it consisted of idealists, regional-romantics and do-gooders. It used to be drowned out by a coalition of viewpoints and ideologies ranging from indifference to hostility to blood-thirst. Change has come in most categories of opinion, on both sides of the border, though not on a mirror-track.

The bloodthirsty lobby in India began to lose its appetite after Bangladesh , an outcome beyond its imagination. For a while it compensated by continuing to target Indian Muslims as a surrogate enemy, but that too has waned since there is no longer any electoral reward in domestic conflict, an important consideration in a democracy. {MJA's smartness is here. He writes a pretty good article but his eaten food does not digest if he does not bring this aspect.}

Pakistan 's fanatics flourish because they have lifted elements of their multi-level agenda above the compulsions of domestic power. We should not waste newsprint on their fantasies, except to note that their terrorism remains the single greatest provocation for a fourth, and potentially devastating, war between India and Pakistan .

Perhaps it is just such a prospect that has driven the most useful lobby on the subcontinent, that of realists, towards peace. Realists have clearly strengthened Pakistan's variable and possibly fragile peace constituency immeasurably. You don't have to fall in love to be a good neighbour; in fact romance can have harmful side-effects. But good neighbours do not pelt each other with stones [through media] or test nerves with sniper fire during their waking hours.

Peace has to be defined, or it will remain elusive. It has to be a specific, objective, negotiated condition, neither too ambitious nor too insignificant. If it is mere absence of formal war, then we have found it already. The search continues because we know that the present uncertainty is inherently volatile, prone to exploitation by anarchists and terrorists. If we want a mutually fruitful peace, we need to diagnose the causes of war.

There are two defining dates in the Indo-Pak relationship, only one of which is recognised for its spawn of consequences. There have been, in effect, two partitions of India : the one in 1947 is in every child's history book; the one in 1965 has not been adequately understood. 1947 divided the land; 1965 divided the people.

Till Pakistan launched, in 1965, its second effort to seize our part of Jammu and Kashmir through a formal military offensive, people travelled freely on easily-available documents, the rail border at Wagah bustled with business even if the occasional customs officer bristled with pompousness in an effort to disguise harassment and petty corruption, the border on both wings was so porous that humans and goods were easily smuggled in both directions, businessmen retained cross-border investments, media was freely available and conflict was the prerogative of politicians and military brass.

In 1965, we built a wall between neighbours that the Cold War architects of the Berlin rampart could have envied.

Sanity demands a return to the summer of 1965 [war began in September] and not a return to the summer of 1947 [partition came in August]. This objective has the merit of being possible.

If we link Indo-Pak harmony to a solution of the Kashmir problem, we will remain frozen in a subcontinent-wide Siachen. Harmony will induce steps towards a solution; not the other way around, because there are impenetrable barriers on the way around.

A road with dual carriageways is logical; a road with contradictions is an invitation to deathly accidents.

[harbans]

I wrote:

Hardline 'right' Hindu groups like SS, Bajrang Dal function somewhat like mirror images of Islamic hardline groups.

RamaY wrote:

Great Anal-sys to do a glorious equal-equal between LeT and SS/BD type organizations. It is not only OT but also unnecessary. There is nothing wrong in not-liking SS/BD or even criticizing them. But drawing parallels with LeT? Are you guys insane?

I clearly did not do an ==. All i said is that they do try hard to copy the Islamists, but don't possess the necessary doctrinal fangs to be as effective. That's why they do an == on the moral policing side or espousing local and chauvinist causes. Ironically this goes against themselves as it's a losing game specially by the anti-hindu propaganda and mileage that Western and Islamic press reels off.

Please try and make an attempt to understand what the other person is trying to convey. Thanks.

[svinayak]

I clearly did not do an ==. All i said is that they do try hard to copy the Islamists,

How can you infer this

[harbans]

I said that they enforce moral ethics rooted in Islamic and Victorian mores. They give scant regards to the secular constitution when their goons set about couples and such. They do have goons that set about North Indians in Mumbai quite against the law. They do act many times way above the law. In that sense they do have the same scant regard for constitution as Islamists do. They mirror image the behaviour of Islamists in these senses to the hilt. The LeT however if you see breaks no laws in Pakistan quite ironically.

[Bhaskar]

Harbans makes a valid point i think. Now, i will not compare Shiv Sena with LeT. Or Bajrang Dal with LeT.
But, Shiv Sena and the Bajrang Dal are very hardcore fundamentalist groups which play the divide politics. They can be compared with the organizations in Pakistan which support the Sharia Law but they aren't terrorist outfits. SS and BD are right wing parties of India.

[vera_k]

Hardline Hindu groups are a mirror image of hardline left wing groups like CPI, INC and WKK types. And since the left wing Indian groups support Sharia {INC, CPI, WKK} == {LeT, Pakistan organisations supporting Sharia}.

Better not to get into the comparison game.