Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

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Gagan
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Gagan »

On a lighter note, I must add that Shri Chan-kiya must be ROTFL in the heavens above, at the number of times, and instances when he is remembered and revered by the Pakistanis.

He must have thought that the yindoos would be remembering him till time immemorial.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by asprinzl »

Name of the country is: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan
Real name is: Pak Is Satan State (PISS)

Cheers
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Pakistan Plays Ball
BY IMTIAZ GUL

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... plays_ball

...

Perhaps the most important reason for the improved ties between these two allies is the personal rapport that the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm. Mike Mullen and Centcom chief Gen. David Petraeus have cultivated with Pakistani Chief of Army Staff Lt. Gen. Ashfaq Kayani and the head of the ISI, Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha.

...

In return, Kayani has attempted to convince his American counterparts that a truly effective partnership must be built on mutual trust. "I have been telling Mullen and Petraeus, as well as others in NATO, that if you keep suspecting and insinuating against us publicly, we will find it difficult to motivate our rank and file," Kayani stated on Feb. 3. With doubts and allegations, our room for maneuvering also shrinks, he maintained.

Kayani conveyed the same message privately to Mullen and Petraeus when they met at the Pakistani Army's General Headquarters in Rawalpindi, south of Islamabad, in mid-December last year. Kayani tried to explain the intricacies of Army operations in the Waziristan region, telling his guests that Pakistan's Army would determine the scale and timing of any future military campaign into North Waziristan. He reportedly assured them of full cooperation -- but "only if we are viewed with trust and not suspicion."

If Mullen and Petraeus's statements since December are any indicator, they seem to have a sympathetic ear for Kayani's concerns. Mullen had nothing but praise for the Pakistan Army's assault on the Taliban in the Swat Valley in the summer of 2009, and he repeatedly declined to publicly pressure Kayani to launch an operation in North Waziristan following Pakistan's campaign in South Waziristan in October 2009.

...

This massive infusion of American dollars begs the question: Are President Obama's incentives to Pakistan bearing fruit, and can they be translated into successful negotiations with the Taliban? There are a number of cautionary tales in attempting to use Baradar to bring the Taliban rank and file over in support of a negotiated settlement. This has been attempted previously with Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef, the Taliban's ambassador to Pakistan before 9/11, and Mullah Mutawakkil, the Taliban foreign minister -- with little positive effect on the reconciliation process. If Baradar is thought to have switched sides due to U.S. or Pakistani coercion, he too might become irrelevant.

Although increased U.S.-Pakistani cooperation can only bode well for the NATO war effort in Afghanistan, both sides should not expect Baradar's arrest, in of itself, to lead to a dramatic shift on the battlefield. In previous years, the Taliban insurgency has survived the loss of Mullah Dadullah, Akhtar Mohammad Osmani, and Mullah Obaidullah -- proving that the movement is more resilient than any one leader. Mullah Baradar's loss could possibly dent the insurgency -- but as long as Mullah Omar remains the supreme commander and the spiritual mentor to the insurgents, we should not expect the Taliban to disappear overnight.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by sanjaykumar »

Pakistan Plays Ball

or

America hopes while Pakistan plays with balls
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by SSridhar »

Gagan wrote:So far the only plan that's visible is that there is no uniform plan to tackle pakistan. Which I see as a sign that various GoIs are exasperated with pakistan's behaviour, and now see that keeping it entertained from time to time is important, while India develops itself.
Gagan, there is one plan that was never tried in all the six decades of existence, and that is to single-mindedly squeeze Pakistan in every respect. For example, the only time that we banned Pakistani overflights between West & East Pakistan was in the 1971 war. Even assuming we had done so during the 1965 war, we should have continued with the ban after the war as a sort of punishment. We have been disproportionately magnanimous and indulgent and thus allowed Pakistan and its friends to take us for granted. Even if we take the Indus Water Treaty, we allowed four times the quantum of water to Pakistan than what we took, additionally we paid them 62 Million Pound Sterling to enable them to build irrigation infrastructure, while we had an equally onerous task of building our own dams (like the massive Bhakra Nangal) and canals. While the US, UK and Australia freely aided Pakistan to complete the water projects, we were left on our own and yet we contributed generously to Pakistan possibly under pressure. Mind you, the aces were all with us as the headworks were within our territory. Pakistan even objected to building the Bhakra & Nangal dams and we delayed them by another three years. In Salal & Uri projects we conceded to Pakistani objections in design and are paying a heavy price. Pakistan and its friends will not feel the heat from India or will not understand our anger, if we do the squeezing sporadically or incompletely.
I think GoIs have recognized that Pakistan is like a dog's tail, it has so many internal contradictions, that there is no point investing our faith in any or several constituency there. They just don't have the ability to carry through on any agreement they sign. Their need to survive, will force them to give up any treaty they sign with India.
However, these internal contradictions disappear whenever the question of evil India crops up. We have seen this as late as 26/11. Pakistan scrambled its Air Force, the Army was put on alert, the Corps Commanders welcomed the announcement of the Taliban to take on India and hailed them as true patriots, the tv channels and the Urdu press went ballistic, and the masses became jingoistic. Even the few that have seen the light on other occassions refused to believe that Pakistan could have done that.

The only constituency that determines the India affairs within Pakistan is the Army, as we all know. The Pakistani Army is joined at the hip, on the one side, with the Pentagon and on the other side with the Chinese. It therefore thinks that it is immune from us. The politicians and democratic governance are a side show at least as far as India is concerned. In fact, they acquiesce willingly in any perfidy that the military plots and executes against us. Everyone in Pakistan is a willing accomplice against us. There is no peace constituency there, AFAIK.

Pakistan practises nothing but hudabiaya and taqiyyah as Gen. Musharraf so blatantly accepted in his televised speech after 9/11. Treaties are therefore instruments in this practice.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by arun »

X Posted.

FWIW, former military dictator of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, Gen. Pervez Musharraf claims that India agreed to give independence to Jammu and Kashmir:
“I and Manmohan Singh had agreed on a plan to resolve the Kashmir dispute under which both sides of the Line of Control were to be given independence”
Pak, India had agreed on independence to Jammu & Kashmir: Musharraf
Anujan
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Anujan »

I thought their side was already Independent, with the name "Azad" and all? (Mushy is a serial liar. Trust none of what he says. He is pretty much the same guy who claimed that "Mujahideen were in Kargil".)

Any solution to the cashmere dispute, should include the face of Kashmiri pundits. Their houses, property and resettlement in the valley. Cashmere dispute can be settled only within the framework of the Indian constitution. On top of that we have a Parliament resolution which identifies Gilgit-Baltistan and POK as Indian territory. The fate of the part of Cashmere so generously gifted by Pakistan to China needs to be discussed.

And mushy sums it up by saying "Independence for both sides"?

The reason I am not so concerned that MMS will sell out on the cashmere issue is because any solution that places permanent borders this way or that, should be ratified in the Parliament.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by abhishek_sharma »

From intelligence thread:

http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers ... r3687.html
To talk of limited military action in the form of hot pursuit of terrorists, hit and run raids and air strikes on their training camps in Pakistani territory is to exhibit a surprising and worrisome ignorance of ground realities and a lack of understanding of a proxy war despite India being a victim of it for nearly three decades now.
Our policy of "kabi garam, kabi naram" (sometimes hard, sometimes soft) creates confusion and uncertainty in the minds of our own security bureacracy and makes our objective allies across the border hesitant to co-operate with us in covert actions.

The need of the hour is a counter proxy war doctrine incorporating its political, diplomatic, economic and covert components and its implementation in a determined and consistent manner. The results would not come dramatically, but slowly and almost imperceptibly.

The starting point of any exercise to work out a counter proxy war doctrine has to be the answers to two questions---- is it in our national interest to make Pakistan pay a prohibitive price internally and externally for using terrorism against India? If so, how to do it in a manner which will be effective and deniable?

Once we have affirmative answers to these questions, many options will suggest themselves. Inaction or unwarranted generosity will be suicidal against a determined and cunning adversary such as Pakistan.

Our intelligence agencies are not strangers to covert actions. They have had instances of successes and instances of failures. 1971 was the successful culmination of a covert action initiated 20 years earlier. The defeat of the Taliban in Afghanistan in 2001 by the US was facilitated by a covert action initiated by India some years earlier. These were not acts of terrorism. These were intelligently-conceived operations executed with stealth and consistency.

The very same political leadership, which ordered the winding-up of our covert action capability vis-a-vis Pakistan in a moment of misplaced generosity in 1997, ordered the continuance of the capability directed against the Taliban, which ultimately paid results in 2001.

...

Unfortunately, the present leadership lacks in the will to prevail against a determined adversary and in self-confidence that it can stand up to pressure from the US if our leadership takes a tough line against Pakistan. Public opinion has to assert itself. ( 23-2-10)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by A_Gupta »

Can a leopard change its spots? Can a dog's curly tail be straightened?
Can this be true?
Half of Afghanistan Taliban leadership arrested in Pakistan

MONITOR EXCLUSIVE: Pakistan officials told the Monitor they have arrested nearly half – 7 of 15 – members of the Afghan Taliban's senior leadership council in recent days, including the Taliban head of military operations in Afghanistan.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Sou ... n-Pakistan

Talk of Quid, Pro and Quo in the making!
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by arun »

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s energy sector is in a financial mess.

Will appreciate anyone who has been following the Islamic Republic’s “Circular Debt” problems demystifying the issue:

PSO threatens to stop supply from March 1
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Pranav »

SBajwa wrote:
If Pakistanis are saying this.
"It is for the Indians to decide if they would be comfortable to have China talking as a third party to bridge the gap. As far as Pakistan is concerned they (China) have a blank cheque,"
Why don't we have some media savvy foreign ministry people saying this?

"It is for Chinese to decide if they would be comfortable to have India talking as a third party to bridge the gap between Tibet/Taiwan/Japan/Vietnam and China"

"India will happily sit to solve all the issues between Iran and Pakistan"

"India is aware of her position in Indian subcontinent and we will gladly help Pakistan and Afghanistan so that they are back to talking terms"

I mean what gives!! what does it take to say this on international media?
It may actually be of some use to take up the PRC blank check idea. After all, PRC is a more rational actor, they need Indian raw materials and markets, and do not want India to gang up against them with the west.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by D Roy »

There is a lot of unfortunate psyops going on in the media by the suited booted RAPE about a " solution that never was".

Terms such as "joint administration", "self-governance" etc are being bandied about.

All of us here know that Pakistan controls only a fraction of the Valley ( POK) and the Northern Areas are not really "Kashmir" as we understand it. India has most of "kashmir" already under control. So there's no question of us "giving" up anything. That is pure psyops that the Pakistanis use to create confusion in the Indian middle class.

Now some ******** in the west want access to central asia and that is why they are propping up this abomination called Pakistan. Nobody in the CIA/DIA whatever has any illusions about the "real game" of the PA/ISI. Given a chance many of them would request that the Pukes be nuked to hell.

However the Goras continue to be wary of India and also need access to fresh water which is primarily in Russia. Therefore some of them will keep up this advocacy of propping up the Pakis.

There is no point pretending that the Pakis are emboldened on their own. They obviously have encouragement. There is also no point in pretending that
a> The goras are fools and are propping up the Pakis out of sheer gullibility.
b> They are arming them due to "compulsions" which may "disappear" in the future.
c> They will "cut and run' from Afghanistan.

All three are false. None of the above is true. the arming of Pakistan is very much part of a carefully crafted gora strategy to enter what in Roman times used to be referred to as "outer mongolia and beyond". In fact it was always a roman wet dream to go beyond the caspian.

I think the way to tame the Pakis is by adopting an offensive-defensive strategy against both the chinese and the west.

Like a mature adult we will continue to trade but also increasingly "compete" with the above.
However I must say that we must try to "befriend" the chinese more than what we are doing right now. Basically be nice while tanking up on nukes, airpower, border defences( good fences make good neighbours) etc.

The nice part will come from giving greater access to the recession hit chinese building capability. the chinese know that they can't keep building the "seventh train line" from Beijing to Shanghai. They need to look at other markets beyond their already Overbuilt country. That market is obviously India which we know is fantastically underbuilt.

In fact post recession the chinese are also trying to push in labour besides capital. All the bally hoo you saw on the border was about the chinese wanting economic opportunity in India.

However the message they sent out was clear- "China can be bought out by India. Come on have a heart , just try".
And this is exactly where the solution to Pak lies.
Get China on board because unlike what some people here believe they are actually much less "geopolitically" driven than the Goras. The chinese know that they are far from out of the woods with respect to their own domestic stability and have no delusions about "world power" despite what the media would have you believe before setting their own house in order.

They may pretend otherwise but then we all know what H&D really counts for.

It is time to feel out the chinese to see if they are willing to come round on Greater Asia Peace and Prosperity.

I have more faith in them as fellow asians despite 62 et al than in the Goras who raped my motherland on a scale that the worst central asian barbarian could not have even dreamed of.
Last edited by D Roy on 25 Feb 2010 08:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Gagan »

SSridhar garu,
What I am saying when I refer to various constituencies within pakistan not living upto the deals they agree to with India is not the civilians vs the military thing. This is across the board everywhere, where even the new military boss does not agree with what his predecessor signed. Look at mushy and kiyani relationship.

On the face of it mushy was the Dictator, but even then he barely held on to power. The pakjabi core commanders, and I suspect some of those whom mushy superseded to get kiyani in held all the powers.

In their internal jostling, they are quite willing to lay the blame for all and sundry at India's door.

I completely agree, that coercive diplomacy is the only methodology that has ever brought results for India, and as we've seen for the US also, when dealing with Pakistan.

Unless we have them by their testimonials, they will not dance to our tune.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Pranav »

D Roy wrote: Get China on board because unlike what some people here believe they are actually much less "geopolitically" driven than the Goras. ...

It is time to feel out the chinese to see if they are willing to come round on Greater Asia Peace and Prosperity.

I have more faith in them as fellow asians despite 62 et al than in the Goras who raped my motherland on a scale that the worst central asian barbarian could not have even dreamed of.
The acid test will be whether the PRC is willing to have TSP dismantled. The TSP whore gives 25% of her time to PRC.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Prem »

="SSridhar"][="Gagan"]So far the only plan that's visible is that there is no uniform plan to tackle pakistan. Which I see as a sign that various GoIs are exasperated with pakistan's behaviour, and now see that keeping it entertained from time to time is important, while India develops itselfPakistan practises nothing but hudabiaya and taqiyyah as Gen. Musharraf so blatantly accepted in his televised speech after 9/11. Treaties are therefore instruments in this practice
Even WKKs know Paki behaviour is essentially of a retard Humanzee. India wont go to war till all the cards are in Indian hand as stalemate or anything less than complete anihilation of them is not an option. What we see right now is Shishupal act. Even the Muslims in India are fed up with Paki giving real bad name to Islam.Quarantine process for Pakiland is just at the initial stage , much more interesting time ahead for them in next few years. Their situation is like that of a Bakra who is aware of the upcoming sacrifice but not in a position to do anything to save itself. Their little hope is in our political weakness which some strange reason GOI exhibit with ease in careless manner. May be they know something which no one knows. Then may be Paki fear all the river damed on Indian side with enough economic clout to even shake 3.5 masters in near future. They know they will require but aint worth 50-100 billion worth yearly aid from their Auliyas to even have the semblence of parity with India. They are playing looser's game , nothing new in their charachteristic play, in the end they will be abadoned by the Massas and will have to live on our mercy.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on the FY 2011 International Affairs Budget.

http://www.c-span.org/Watch/Media/2010/ ... inton.aspx


Kerry asked Clinton if Pakis should be given a Free Trade agreement and less difficult IMF conditions. (Pakis brought these issues up when Kerry visited them.) Hillary replied that Pakis have very low tax rates and they should increase it.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by D Roy »

The acid test will be whether the PRC is willing to have TSP dismantled. The TSP whore gives 25% of her time to PRC.
I think the Chinese might be running out of ideas as well. The Pukes were a nice appendage to have, that kept India constrained in the 75-95 period and allowed China to grow nicely without a military buildup in Tibet.

However India broke out of that mold in the 1996-2010 period. and today Jihadi terror is becoming a major threat in Xingjiang

China continues to support the pukes today primarily because a clueless section of the PLA continues to view India with suspicion and is also heavily involved in the armaments business. Pakistan serves an additional market for Chinese military industries as well as a conduit for getting western technology through clandestine means. Moreover they think this the "least cost" way of countering India.

See for all the infrastructure buildup in tibet the PLA knows that it won't amount to much unless they divert serious military resources away from Taiwan and East Asia. This is something that they really don't want to do. In fact I would argue that the India of 2010 will still have the advantage along the LAC even if the PLA tries to seriously up the ante. ( I won't go into this discussion because this is better discussed elsewhere).

Nevertheless at the end of the day the PLA is one of the constituencies in PRC albeit a very important one. However they are still subservient to civilian masters who are more prudent and have interests that go beyond Chengdu Aviation and Pharmaceutical industries. In fact the very example of Pakistan gives them night mares as to what could happen if India started behaving in the same way with respect to them. They also serve as a check on some grandiose strategic planners of the PLAN. which is why I do not have a lot of concern about the so called "string of pearls". Forget about strategic overstretch this idea, probably being lobbied for by the PLAN and supported by some in the PLA will never amount to much. Instead the port development projects are very much part of the chinese need to "build" outside their country as alluded to in the earlier post. They would be just as happy to build a Gwadar in Orissa.

In a nutshell, the Chinese till now have been "hedging". but if a new deal is offered to them they may do some serious cost-benefit calculations.
Last edited by D Roy on 25 Feb 2010 09:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Anujan »

http://beta.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/article112898.ece

Is Siddharth Varadarajan insane, GOI's feeler or some Chunkyan strategist?!

I dont know what to make of his water article!! SSridhar-ji - any comments?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Vivek_A »

Shireen in pants

Rigi met US, Indian envoys in Afghanistan before arrest
By: Sikander Shaheen
ISLAMABAD – The presence of Jundullah’s top man Abdol Malek Rigi in Afghanistan, a day prior to his arrest, is seen as part of covert meetings between US and Indian diplomats with Taliban and some unidentified leaders.
This newspaper, earlier, first published a story on January 30 last and a subsequent story on February 7 that a series of covert meetings were taking place between US and Indian diplomats with Taliban leaders, however, the whereabouts and origins of these leaders could not be ascertained due to the lack of sufficient details and highly covert manner in which these meetings were arranged.

Just recently, the arrests of three top leaders of Taliban by Pakistani authorities were not welcomed by Afghanistan and India at all, and soon after these arrests that had been termed by Pakistani authorities as a major breakthrough in combating militancy, voices were heard from New Delhi and Kabul that the pertinent development was a major blow to ‘peace efforts’ and arrested brass was presumably willing for talks with Afghanistan government! This policy of cribbing from both these states reflects the malice on part of Afghanistan that blindly follows the dictates of US and its cronies to avail of every bid that undermines Pakistan’s dignity.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Gagan »

On top of this, the chinese have supplied mil hardware, built ports, and taken over plants in pakistan on deferred payments to promote chinese industry. The chinese had hoped that for all the support they give the pakistanis in their difficult times, the pakistanis will be grateful and will pay them back with interest.

But the pakistanis being pakistanis, are not very grateful, they don't seem like they are ever going to pay the chinese back any money at all. All they want is further deferred payments, and after a few years, forgiving of the loan altogether.

Now the wily chinese do want to contain India, but they are not so desperate that they will forgive pakistani loans, or endlessly give them freebies. Besides, India has begun to shrug off the pakistani coin effortlessly these days. The chinese will instead rely increasingly on improving relations with India.

Prem saar,
That Shishupal analogy is very apt. I don't think the bakra analogy quite does it. (Because the bakra does not do the disco dance before it gets halalled) OTH, shishupal does a lot of dramabazi before the fatal blow.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Vivek_A »

Earth-e-Shaster competing with the nutty nation for the nuttiest paki rag in the world..

Perverse role of US think-tanks
Asif Haroon Raja
Judging from the track record and conduct of these jaundiced think tanks, it is quite evident that they are hell-bent to keep USA and Muslim world on a warpath so as to kill two birds with one stone. Clash of civilization between Christianity and Islam suit the agenda of Israel and India, both aspiring to become world powers. The Zionists had first pitched US led western world and Muslim world against Communism and after the fall of latter in 1991, Islam became their next target. Among the Muslims those with religious bent of mind and closer to religion were marked for annihilation with the help of secular Muslim leadership and backed by ultra liberal Muslims. American Jews played a key role in coloring the perceptions of US leaders. In order to turn American and western public hostile against Muslims, 9/11 was master minded by the Jews which changed the dynamics of the globe. Their grisly role has now been sufficiently exposed.

In the war on terror, Muslims are being butchered ruthlessly much to the delight of Israel, India and neo-cons in USA. So far over 1.6 million Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan have been killed, as many maimed for life and millions displaced. Worst form of torture and human degradation by the so-called most civilized nations of the world took place. The two countries have been ruined and divided on ethnic lines. Obama on whom high hopes were pinned has proved to be equally worse. He continues to follow self-destructive policies since his sources of information and influencing bodies are the same. Neo-cons of George W. Bush era are still active and influential while Pentagon and CIA in league with hawkish elements within Establishment, State Department and Congress have occupied front seats and are calling all the shots. War on terror has all the gains for foxy Indo-Israeli axis and none for USA except for ignominy.
I think this round goes to Earth-e-shaster...but only because of this
—The writer is a retired Brig and a freelance defence analyst.
Last edited by Vivek_A on 25 Feb 2010 09:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Gagan »

This Rigi thing is as simple as the ISI putting him on a plane bound for Iran, with his hands tied.

I think Rigi realized only after he was airborne that the ISI had double crossed him.

Again we see that coercive diplomacy has worked with pakistan. Iran had threatened in no uncertain terms, that it was willing to repay pakistani terror with its assets within pakistan. This I think tilted the tide within pakistan.

The other angle of KSA and Massa agreeing to Rigi's deportation is interesting indeed. Perhaps Iran has someone that Massa and KSA want? Like OBL's Family or OBL himself??? One does wonder why Iran backed shia fighters will suddenly arise in yemen, and KSA and Massa will take them out calling then Al Qaida. Since when has Al Qaida become Shia?

But OBL's family is supposedly in Iran as per reports.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Pranav »

FEBRUARY 25, 2010
U.S. Sells Arms to South Asian Rivals

Washington Increases Weapons Transfers to India and Pakistan to Maintain Neutrality, Aid Industry

By YOCHI J. DREAZEN And AMOL SHARMA

The Obama administration is sharply expanding American weapons transfers to both India and Pakistan, longtime rivals about to sit down for peace talks Thursday.
...
Washington's relationships with the two nations are very different. India, which is wealthier and larger than its neighbor, pays for weapons purchases with its own funds. Pakistan, by contrast, uses American grants to fund most of its arms purchases. A new U.S. counterinsurgency assistance fund for Pakistan is slated to increase from $700 million in fiscal year 2010 to $1.2 billion in fiscal year 2011.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... TopStories

So, Kaffir taxpayers in India are being forced to pay for free arms to TSP, which will then be used to slaughter Kaffirs, as usual.

Furthermore, whatever equipment is sent to India will certainly be full of Trojans and kill-switches.

Congrats MMS, Sonia!!
Last edited by Pranav on 25 Feb 2010 10:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by vera_k »

Anujan wrote:Is Siddharth Varadarajan insane, GOI's feeler or some Chunkyan strategist?!
Seeing how he is an American, this is very likely the American point of view. I do hope they don't cave in to the terrorists again.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Aditya_V »

Gagan-> On the Rigi episode I just hope somehow ISI double crossed US and KSA due to Chinese pressure and thier friendship with Iran, this Jackal must be tied to 2 cars going opposite directions.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Rudradev »

Something just occurred to me.

The announcement by Karzai at London to the effect that he had already been in talks with Taliban leaders to assemble a coalition, appeared to take many by surprise- including David Millipede who had organized the conference to push "negotiating with Taliban" as his own novel solution for AfPak.

And now we see the ISI detaining first Baradar and then half the Talib top brass from the Quetta Shura.

If you think about it, it's like the North Vietnamese govt arresting Nguyen Thanh and Pham Hung of the Viet Cong... just as the Americans were about to sign the Paris accords. Why would they shave the tip of their own spear, poised to regain territory lost to American occupation?

Was this a panic reaction by the Pakis? So far we have been analyzing this in terms of an ISI betrayal of the Talibs... in truth, is it a reaction by TSPA and ISI to the realization that senior Talibs had been betraying them?

Did the TSPA and ISI suddenly learn that, in these Taliban-Karzai talks that had been going on at a very low profile till London made them public- there had also been Indians at the table?

I can't think why else TSPA and ISI would have rounded up these guys- why, with the scent of victory after London, would Kiyani take so drastic a step and risk alienating the Pakis' future proxies in post NATO Afghanistan? If it is all just a sham and a wily move by the Pakis, couldn't they have found a more H&D conscious way of bringing the Talibs to the table than throwing them in jail and giving the CIA access to them? What have they been "interrogating" Baradar about, that he wouldn't have told them of freely had he actually been on their side?

On another note, I think DRoy may be on to something re: PRC. A US-blessed, Taliban containing dispensation on their Xinjiang border may be the last thing they want to see emerge from the Afghan conflict for many reasons.
Last edited by Rudradev on 25 Feb 2010 10:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Pranav »

Rudradev wrote: On another note, I think DRoy may be on to something re: PRC. A US-blessed, Taliban containing dispensation on their Xinjiang border may be the last thing they want to see emerge from the Afghan conflict for many reasons.
True, but PRC will try to limit impact by getting TSP to rein in any Talibs that may join the Afghan govt.

But TSP is likely to be fine with allowing Talibs to be used against Russia via radicalization of CARs.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by ramana »

All those Taliban arrested in TSP and Rigi were about to become good Taliban. Note all are from Quetta Shura and Barader is a Poplazai an not a Ghilzai.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Rudradev »

Pranav wrote:
Rudradev wrote: On another note, I think DRoy may be on to something re: PRC. A US-blessed, Taliban containing dispensation on their Xinjiang border may be the last thing they want to see emerge from the Afghan conflict for many reasons.
True, but PRC will try to limit impact by getting TSP to rein in any Talibs that may join the Afghan govt.

But TSP is likely to be fine with allowing Talibs to be used against Russia via radicalization of CARs.
This is also why, when all is said and done, the US will not be unhappy with an Afghanisran dominated by Talibs firmly under ISI control. Such an Afghanistan could be Unkil's own "non state actor", with two levels of built in plausible deniability.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Rangudu »

ramana wrote: Barader is a Poplazai an not a Ghilzai.
Exactly! And who was Barader's point of contact in Kabul - none other than Hamid Karzai's brother, a fellow Popalzai.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Rudradev »

ramana wrote:All those Taliban arrested in TSP and Rigi were about to become good Taliban. Note all are from Quetta Shura and Barader is a Poplazai an not a Ghilzai.

The question is "good" for whom?

Good Taliban who were "good" for the US the Pakis would have countenanced... as long as the understanding was that the Pakis would control them as agents of it's own strategic depth in Afghanistan while adhering to US interests.

Good Taliban who were good for Karzai... the Pakis would have been suspicious of, but would likely have tried to win over by bribery or appealing to Izzlamic identity.

But good Taliban who were good for... India?

Any possibility of such a thing would have precipitated the sort of furious reaction by ISI... arrests, torture, interrogation... that we might be seeing before our eyes right now.

Maybe Yindoos had been getting a lot further than we realized, with assembling the Durrani Pakhtun coalition Paul has mentioned before. And that is why we are seeing what were seeing. Possible?
Last edited by Rudradev on 25 Feb 2010 11:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by D Roy »

Yes, but the "good" taliban are going to have american masters, who in turn will allow these "nationalistic" afghans to resist too much pressure from their Paki brethren.

In return the Goras will "request" their services against the godless russkies and if required the even more godless PLA.

Note, just when everybody thought America had "deferred" to the Chinese ( Obama's bows and vows) bam comes the weapons transfers to Taiwan. See, the goras like to keep everyone in toe. Although Russia may be top priority right now, every once in a while china will be reminded that it is already "calibrated". (Also, if I owe someone 2 dollars its my problem if i owe someone 200 its his etc.)


China I don't think likes this kind of gora duplicity. in the past it has tried to counter this by SCO and trying to handhold the russians. but at the end of the day China and Russia don't quite mix. Strange as it sounds India and China actually can gel pretty well. And calm along the LAC will serve the interests of both countries swell.

In fact in return for guaranteeing chinese transit though the indian ocean we can get equipment at near free prices from the chinese for our power sector build up. ( Okay a little more expensive because we'll have to get the chinese to send us better stuff and do some quality control :) ).
Think about it - India and China- no religious problems, no real race problems, no population centers barring Tawang which are really disputed. even tawang is just chinese posturing. they produce 440 millions tonnes of steel we'll soon be consuming that amount as we build infrastructure for our land.

If we can draw in Japan into this mix, we'll pretty much shut out the goras from asia for well and good. naturally gora publications are going to jump up and down about the impending clash of future superpowers etc.

Soon Russia will realize that if it has to remain anything on the world stage it will have to discover the orientalism in it.


Pakistan will become a footnote in history.

If the Chinese had any sense, and I think they do- their real breakout can only happen in an alliance with Us.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Suppiah »

D Roy wrote:In fact the very example of Pakistan gives them night mares as to what could happen if India started behaving in the same way with respect to them.
In a nutshell, the Chinese till now have been "hedging". but if a new deal is offered to them they may do some serious cost-benefit calculations.
Brilliant...400% agree. India, given its critical mass, enormous size, goodwill amongst intl community and strong diaspora, Bollywood crap culture and so on, can be TSP multiplied by 10, 100 times a pain in butt for PRC commies, if it chooses to. It has already given (thru nuke deals etc.) more than enough hints of what is to come if PRC continues in this path...

The continuing electoral debacles and increasing irrelevance of its puppets in India is also a strong factor. Every 1% growth in economy makes these traitors even less relevant....PRC would do well to communicate with Indians more and less thru its puppets in yellow media and elsewhere.

I think of my son when I think of India China relation. Yes he may be a bit small today but the way he is growing, you dont want to run into him in a dark alley a few years later, if you antagonise him today.

We basically should offer them a deal - they kill off TSP in exchange for us keeping a bit mum on China-US situation. They have nothing to lose, as I posted several times, the TSP-PRC relationship is an unnatural one as between a old civilised nation and a bunch of barbaric animals who are loathed by average Chinese.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Masaru »

sanjaykumar wrote:http://dailymailnews.com/0210/25/FrontP ... tPage5.php
Delhi should also remember that if it would start thinking that all the Sikhs are Indians, then Pakistan also has the right to claim that all the Muslims of India are Pakistanis and then Indian would have to give justification over the killing of every Muslim in any part of India
Makhidoom does protest so.
Great news indeed! Of course TSP has every right to take up the cause. Now if Delhi gives asylum/citizenship to all the Sikhs in TSP will TSP also do the same to all the IMs or at least the ones who imagine to be oppressed and take the 2 nation theory to its logical denouement? Or is it just going to be only talking about rights and abdicating when the time comes to step up and do the duty to fulfill the mandate to be the promised homeland of the pure?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by D Roy »

And while some of us do get carried away about Weegurs and their rights , do we really want to see an "independent" Turkestan.

Especially one that is run by proto-Talibs and is under the financial control of the Goras and has long lost ethnic affinity to Turkey.

Its good that we have a turkey thread now, because that country has routinely being supplying weapons to the Pakis and some neo-ottoman wet dreams have surfaced as well. The new non-elected Foreign minister has some dangerous ideas and I suspect Gora collusion in it.

The great turkish surface fleet is still essentially capitalised by american hand outs ( Oliver perry class). In my opinion turkey resembles to a great extent our very own Pukistan with its ethnic divergences yet broad religious "similarities". and both after all see themselves as the "dethroned" children of the Ottoman and Mughal empires.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Rudradev »

Suppiah wrote:
D Roy wrote:In fact the very example of Pakistan gives them night mares as to what could happen if India started behaving in the same way with respect to them.
In a nutshell, the Chinese till now have been "hedging". but if a new deal is offered to them they may do some serious cost-benefit calculations.
Brilliant...400% agree. India, given its critical mass, enormous size, goodwill amongst intl community and strong diaspora, Bollywood crap culture and so on, can be TSP multiplied by 10, 100 times a pain in butt for PRC commies, if it chooses to. It has already given (thru nuke deals etc.) more than enough hints of what is to come if PRC continues in this path...
...

I think of my son when I think of India China relation. Yes he may be a bit small today but the way he is growing, you dont want to run into him in a dark alley a few years later, if you antagonise him today.

We basically should offer them a deal - they kill off TSP in exchange for us keeping a bit mum on China-US situation. They have nothing to lose, as I posted several times, the TSP-PRC relationship is an unnatural one as between a old civilised nation and a bunch of barbaric animals who are loathed by average Chinese.
actually the arguments you have cited are exactly the reasons why the Chinese will never "kill off" TSP but continue to foster it.

They are, as you have said, concerned about a rising India and with things like the nuclear deal they are becoming terrified of what may happen should we develop into a "Pakistan" type nemesis for them. This is despite our relatively benign demeanour towards them thus far... the calculus of national interest is made with regard to capabilities rather than intentions after all.

Given this, the last thing they will do is abandon the one source of leverage they have against us.

China does dread India one day becoming their "Pakistan". Therefore, just as we have collaborated with Afghanistan in the past against Pakistan, and just as we are doing our best to forestall Paki domination of Afghanistan today... the Chinese will always endeavour to balance Pakistan against India by strengthening it.

If the way China sees us is analogous to our view of Pakistan... then the way they see Pakistan is analogous to our view of Afghanistan. No way will they sit back and allow us to establish domination over Pakistan by overpowering TSPA/ISI, if they can help it.
Last edited by Rudradev on 25 Feb 2010 11:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Suppiah »

D Roy wrote:In my opinion turkey resembles to a great extent our very own Pukistan with its ethnic divergences yet broad religious "similarities". and both after all see themselves as the "dethroned" children of the Ottoman and Mughal empires.
Interesting comment & comparison....but not Turkey as a whole, AKP & Co. There is a huge secular class in turkey that separates it from TSP.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by ramana »

Rudradev, I think only of India.

The QS Half, by talking to Karzai, who is on bad books of TSP and US, they are good for India. BTW if you recall I say Pashtun reconciliation is one aspect of Af-Pak settlement. The only sane explanation for TSP going after Quetta Shura Half is they are turning "good". And US is like the foolish croc in the river grateful for any fruits thrown by the monkey.

So TSP has killed of chances of "good" Taliban and any Afghan settlement in near future. Hope those Quetta Shura guys are not bumped off or sacrificed to Gitmo.

If US has any thinking let they will take them out of TSP and rehabilitate them.

Now only Haqqani, the bad Taliban, is available for morphing into good Taliban.Unfortunately they are the bad Taliban.

Is Haqqani a Ghilzai, like Mullah Omar?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by D Roy »

exactly the reasons why the Chinese will never "kill off" TSP but continue to foster it.

That's exactly the point.

They will - If they can trust us. And that trust can ultimately come out of economics.

Economics will show that India and China have a convergence with no real divergence.

When we talk about India -China competition at the back of everything lies the notion that both will sell to the "same" markets which is essentially the west.

But if instead, China and India just wanted to sell to each other - and Japan a giant semi-autarkic eco-system can be built that completely bypasses the west.

Both countries have now gained sufficient size and both have attained the capability to produce things cheaply enough, to enter each other's markets in a serious way. The technological infusion required for growth can come from both indigenous R&D in India & China as well as Japan bringing in the incumbent tech advantage ( This will in fact give the Japanese the required clout in the India-China association and I think they have recognized it). In a sense Japan will be the mature wise cousin as the two bigger Hindi-Chini bhai bhais emerge out of adolescence. Besides these countries will also help surmount Japan's labour woes.

In the meanwhile, the Goras will keep trying to foster discord especially by trying to control the energy tap. And this is where India-China collaboration will really get rid of the seeds of discord and distrust.

Keep Iran happy ( for the energy), and counter Diego Garcia through a naval treaty that guarantees chinese energy transit and all India-China problems can be worked out.

Think of France and Germany. both are industrial powers, both make planes , tanks , submarines etc. but they realize that they ultimately have common interest- despite the history.

Compared to them we have a much easier history with China and no ethnic problems.

China will be very foolish if it continues to be the second choice to a rentier whore which is increasingly becoming a full time mistress of the Goras.

If they have not understood this already, we must impress it upon them. May be the Japanese can help too.
Last edited by D Roy on 25 Feb 2010 11:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Philip »

The US's gameplan for control of the Indian sub-continent is simple.Control of Afghanistan will be through Paki surrogates,namely the Taliban.Control of Pak very simple too,through its rent boys Gen.Kill-any,the Zardar,etc.Pocket money and toys for the boys.Control of India is being outsourced to Pak by using terrorism and fifth-columnists.India will be kept off balance constantly and its attention diverted from larger moves on the regional and global chessboard.We will also be offered "toys" to counter "toys" given to Pak.US toy manufacturers will become fat cats at our expense.The Pakis don't mind because they collect their pocket money.Similar deals will be worked out for Indian decision makers from manufacturers of GM foods,toy manufacturers,etc.etc.Thus both Indian and Paki leaders will be happy with full pockets and the tamasha will go on.
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