Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

[Anujan]

--But one thing strikes pretty strange to me. It is the agressive behaviour by the Pakistani officials.The points they have raised for inclusion in the talks (the K-word/Indus Water Treaty) and the way they have behaved is pretty strange, even by Pakistan's standards.Geelani's statement about world pressure and India being forced to table are pretty provocative as far as foreign policy lingo goes. And our friend, Mr. 10% is completey missing from the scene.

--In addition, the holding of rally by Hafeez Saeed so openly and at this juncture and with the inflamatory remarks (K-word) is stranger still. This could not have been possible without the clearance from the topmost level in TSPA. And again, it was obvious that his remarks will be picked up by Indian media and played to the gallery. Now, here is a man who people very clearly identify with 26/11 and he goes ahead and shows his fang so brazenly?

This is your typical Paki negotiating tactic. When they are down and swooned from hunger, and someone revives them and throws a crumb, Pakis take a gun, hold it to their own head and yell "Surrender or else I pull the trigger!!!" Everyone surrenders because they have never seen a spectacle like this before!

Take for example the KL bill. 7.5billion$ when Pakis are going bhooka-nanga and they yell "Dijhaaanaaarrrrr!!!". Without unkil throwing them crumbs, food riots will break out in Pakistan!. The surprised Ombaba administration tosses in 4 billion more....and the Pakis refuse visas to the people who are supposed to disburse the money. I will bet my musharraf that a confused Ombaba administration will give them a few billion more. (all this from a guy who was recommending that Unkil should invade Pakistan when he was running for President).

Same thing with India. Indians come for talks---something that the Pakis have been begging for the past 1 year---what happens? Pakis go "No talks till Cashmere is settled!!! Include 8 more issues like Hindoos with uncut mijjiles in blochistan, Yehudis in Palestine, 80,000 Indian afghan consulates, Kalnel Purohit, Kur Kure and water issues!!" Expect the Indians to fall for this too. I personally dont worry much about the water front*. All the water that we should be sending to the Pakis, we are sending to the Pakis. Their own Indus commissioner says so. Only way of sending more would be to line up a few Indians on the indian side, make them drink beer, coffee etc and ask them to "augment" the water flow.

*Keen observers will note that the water issue reflects a militaristic mindset. Civilian mindset is to manage intentions, that is what treaties are all about. Military mindset is to manage capabilities, that is what arms race is all about. Pakis dont want us to build run of the river projects, because it gives us a capability to shut water off, not because we intend to violate IWT (and to blame willy nilly the Punjab water theft from Sindhis on the Indians). I hope Kishenganga gets finished soon, before their Neelum-Jhelum project, because according to IWT, the fellows who finish first gets to keep it.

[Prem]

Drone attacks and US reputation —Farhat Taj
( Bet Us has build many decret assets in the area. Locals like drones but Pakjabis cry about it)

In terms of the drone attacks, the US must not make any distinction between al Qaeda and the Taliban. They both have internalised a global ideology that is anti-civilisation and anti-humanThere is news coming up in the media that al Qaeda in Waziristan may run away to Yemen in the face of growing drone attacks. The people of Waziristan have expressed deep concern at this news. They do not want al Qaeda to run away from Waziristan. They want al Qaeda along with the Taliban burnt to ashes on the soil of Waziristan through relentless drone attacks. The drone attacks, they believe, are the one and only ‘cure’ for these anti-civilisation creatures and the US must robustly administer them the ‘cure’ until their existence is annihilated from the world. The people of Waziristan, including tribal leaders, women and religious people, asked me to convey in categorical terms to the US the following in my column.One, your new drone attack strategy is brilliant, i.e. one attack closely followed by another. After the first attack the terrorists cordon off the area and none but the terrorists are allowed on the spot. Another attack at that point kills so many of them. Excellent! Keep it up!

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2010_pg3_4

[A_Gupta]

Drone attacks and US reputation —Farhat Taj

http://www.airra.org/newsandanalysis/Pe ... ration.php
(Short version of the Peshawar Declaration of Dec 12,13 2009:

2- It was unanimously agreed that the main and real factor behind the present chaos and instability in the region is the Strategic Depth policy of Pakistan. This is the root cause reason of terrorism in the region. Therefore, this forum strongly demands of the abolition of this policy and accountability of all architects of this policy because the policy has caused far more financial damage to Pakistan than NRO and debts waive-off put together. This policy is also responsible for killing and maiming millions of the innocent people in Pukhtunkwa and other parts of Pakistan.

Note that AIRRA has its head office in Islamabad.

[A_Gupta]

Worth a quick read.
http://www.airra.org/newsandanalysis/SA ... 5B1%5D.pdf
(PDF file: December 2009 issue of SAHAR, "The Voices of Pashtuns")

From one of the articles:

However, neither Bacha Khan nor Gandhi wanted partition to happen, and when it did, all their visions and dreams died before them, and in its place, they had to witness the largest bloodbath in history! And if partition wasn’t bad enough, in newborn India, Bacha Khan was all but abandoned by his former Congress Party allies, while in newborn Pakistan he was charged with sedition and promoting separatism. It made no difference that he took an oath of allegiance to the new state, or that he repeatedly insisted he sought autonomy for Pakhtuns within Pakistan. He was repeatedly jailed or kept under house arrest until his death. As a result, not only did Bacha Khan feel an utter sense of betrayal by this iniquitous partition, but so did every single Pakhtun. This betrayal haunts our Pakhtuns till this very day. We were handed over to Pakistan – in all its hostile glory – as if Pakhtuns were nothing but a useless commodity. They had no say at all. They were simply snatched of their freedom and forced to live amongst antagonism. Part of the reason why we are the way we are today is because of this lack of freedom. Thus, we have been invaded and imposed on for far too long. First by Alexander the Great; then the Arabs; then the Moghuls; then finally the British; and now we are being imposed on in our own homes by dreaded militants.

From another

THE NOTION OF RELIGIOSITY IN PASHTUNS
Mohammad Arif

The notion that Pashtuns are extremely religious is often very exaggerated and sometimes very clandestinely used as a card to undermine their historical social and political secular nature. A complete genealogy of the religiosity in Pasthuns can be dated back to the Afghan war when international community with the help of dictatorial regimes in Pakistan put the whole social order of Pashtuns into jeopardy by restricting their cultural activities on the one hand and exposing them to the Jihad culture on the other hand. The lines will dwell upon the concocted version of the religiosity of Pashtuns.

Those who are aware of Pushtunwali—the Pushtuns code of conduct—will have no problem of issuing a direct verdict on its secular nature. Both philosophically as well as politically Pushtunwali has remained secular since time immemorial. Pushtunwali is claimed to be neither a divine code nor those who practice it understand it theocratically. Most of the tenants of Pushtunwali are secular, tribal and local and can be put in sharp contrast with Islam, which is divine, culturally more complex and universal. For hundreds of years Pushtunwali and Islam existed harmoniously in Pushtuns’ land. The reasons for this paradoxical existence might be that neither Islam is practiced and understood by Pushtuns in its real sense nor Pushtunwali can be practiced in an ideal form. Thus religion remained restricted to certain externalities like occasional prayers, fasting or performing certain rituals or celebrating certain days. Islam never took a direct conflict with Pushtunwali as tribal honour, bravery, revenge, hospitality and family prestige and individual freedom were more relevant in Pushtuns society than living under dogmas, superstitions or subduing themselves before a global Islamic theocracy.

For the past two or three decades and during the Afghan war Pashtuns society witnessed certain transformations. This is not just an increased religiosity but also a kind of decaying generations and a loss of cultural values. The society is in a state of cultural anarchy. On the one hand an imposed Indian culture has polluted Pashtuns’ cultural tastes while on the other hand an imported and imposed Arab religiosity has disturbed the balance between the religious and secular. As a result the society has become more religious and away from its cultural roots with less tolerance and more abstraction.

Secular society has two interpretations: western secular society and our traditional secular society with a touch of modernity. The former is a far-fetched reality and is therefore out of context. In our case, the later is the harmonious balance between Pashtunwali and Islam—the secular and the religious. This system was indigenous to our society and its eradication is quite a recent phenomenon. I remember the mid-80s, when Islamization had not yet taken roots I remember people would not pray or keep beard. Women would take Naswar or Chelum and there was no strict concept of Purda. Women would go to Meela (fairs), Urs or they would work in the fields. Even sexual aberration was not a taboo. There was a small Hindu community in our town and that was part of the socio-economic partnership. What I am trying to say that the pivot of our life was worldly and not religious.

Secularism may be a developed western philosophy but it is not all together a western product. In the western history things are formal, organized or systematic. In societies like ours things are random, disorganized and non-systematic. Therefore, Pashtun intelligentsia should neither be duped into the over-exaggerated religiosity of our society nor they need to become apologetic about their secular worldview. We are, like other human being, and it is a historical fact that human beings tend to be become dogmatic if their freedom is snatched from them and they are bombard with obscurantism in a systematic manner.

Muhammad Arif hails from Tangi in Charsadda and holds a Masters Degree in English.An active member of AIRRA who works in Islamabad and writes articles and poems for different Pashtun forums

[Satya_anveshi]

India concedes to "talk" with Pakistan;

Pakistan concedes India setting agenda;

Of course Pakistan may whine about agenda. May be this is another perspective of "no talks". I know all of you have said the same in other words.

[milindj]

It’s not as if the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is bereft of news demonstrating progress .

Over the years the world’s first “Ideological Muslim State” has successfully whittled down the population of Un-Islamic movie theaters that distract the citizens of the Land of the Pure from their religious obligations with Rawalpindi / Islamabad having just one:

Avatar steps into Pakistan as cinema catalyst


Global Times

Is the name of the movie halaal in the land of the pure?

[Rangudu]

Though as i said earlier, my guess is all this is a side show to get India admitted into the NPT as a NWS. Thats what MMS is aiming for. Pukes everyone knows are down in the dumpos. Not even Allah can help them going down the sewer. MMS and team sure know that.

I'm afraid this is just plain infeasible. What you are talking about - NPT amendment - is both impossible and not worth much for India. It is impossible because the NPT's bylaws make it all but immutable and it is unnecessary because after the NSG clearance, India has almost all it needs from a nuclear clearance standpoint.

There is as much chance of India entering the NPT as an NWS as there is of Hafiz Mohammad Saeed converting to Buddhism.

MMS is doing this because of his conviction, however foolish it may be, that India has to somehow be "magnanimous" with its neighbors in order to achieve some sort of greatness. In his view, once India shows its "generosity", the whole region will overflow with cooperation and commerce and we will all prosper.

[shiv]

We could have avoided talks further if we had managed the intensity of victimhood perception for more time but once it started getting diluted and related mismanagement, then we better review our approach and methodology.

The "sudden talks" thing has probably been force on India because of the SAARC home ministers meet in Terroristan. India has taken the pressure off the Home minister to talk by saying let us have Foreign sec level talks.

[Satya_anveshi]

Rangudu,

You may have mentioned your point of view but can you please put forward your perspective on what your main objections are vis a vis current "talks" :

• Do you disagree with any kind of overt engagement with Pakistan at this moment? If so, until when?
• Do you disagree that our "no talk" has boxed ourselves just as much it did Pakistan (from WW perceptions) standpoint?
• With apparent signs of involvement from US in 26/11 even if Pak was involved E2E, how fair it is to stop discussing with 150M janta that is also reeling under terror? Isn't this super opportunity (much more so than any other time in the past) to talk to those people?
• What is your alternative approach?

[anupmisra]

Ball tampering is a standard operating procedure for the pakis: Ramiz Raja. So leave us alone.

Give Afridi a break
Ramiz Raja

Imran Khan taught Pakistani bowlers the fine art of "ball keeping" © AFP

Our hero's stocks are trading at zero today.

Afridi comes from an era, a cricketing culture, where ball-tampering is considered a normal cricket activity, the done thing on flat Pakistani pitches - an art form and not a sin. It's been a part of the Pakistan team's standard operating procedure.

All teams have one

Pakistan under the tutelage of Imran Khan learned the value of ''ball keeping''. It was a wonderful science. The scratching was left to the elder statesmen of the team. Only their sheepish behaviour gave away the story; that the ''hand of God'' had played its part.

Calling ball-tampering unlawful and an offence is regrettable.

Is it not wrong that a game that preaches equality and fair play has confined bowlers to the status of inferiors in a master-servant relationship with the batsmen?

So give Afridi a break. He may not have played this one by the book but he certainly did read from the book of his predecessors. And he was forced to play God.

Unbelievable, these pakis! Ramiz is going to regret that he wrote this piece.

[shiv]

Is nobody wiling to hazard an opininion on this?

You know people if you look at India as a human and the GoI as the brain (or mind) of the human, what would you rate Pakistan's action against India as, and what rating do you think the GoI gives the injury the nation receives from Paquiland. Please expand with reasoning if possible.

Let me give you a rating scale:
I) Dangerous/Grave injury threatening loss of life?
II) Grievous injury that threatens loss of a limb or eye?
III) Severe injury like a deep cut that can lead to severe blood loss or reduced function of a body part?
IV) Trivial injury that can be sustained indefinitely?
V) Bee stings?
VI) Mosquito bite?

[Satya_anveshi]

The "sudden talks" thing has probably been force on India because of the SAARC home ministers meet in Terroristan. India has taken the pressure off the Home minister to talk by saying let us have Foreign sec level talks.

If SAARC is any reason for these talks, I must say, I am totally gung-ho on this initiative. We have to get that (SAARC) in motion and bring the vision to fruition. Currently, the only rogue element hindering its progress is Pakistan even when it is hurting it very bad; it does so doing west's bidding who loath any such regional groups unless they are part of it.

[nachiket]

Is nobody wiling to hazard an opininion on this?

You know people if you look at India as a human and the GoI as the brain (or mind) of the human, what would you rate Pakistan's action against India as, and what rating do you think the GoI gives the injury the nation receives from Paquiland. Please expand with reasoning if possible.

Let me give you a rating scale:
I) Dangerous/Grave injury threatening loss of life?
II) Grievous injury that threatens loss of a limb or eye?
III) Severe injury like a deep cut that can lead to severe blood loss or reduced function of a body part?
IV) Trivial injury that can be sustained indefinitely?
V) Bee stings?
VI) Mosquito bite?

I would rate it as
III) Severe injury like a deep cut that can lead to severe blood loss or reduced function of a body part?

I am talking about 26/11 style attacks.

If operation Gibraltar or Kargil had succeeded even to some extent it would have been classified as II.

I) would only happen if we lost a major battle and (consequently) a large amount of land in open (conventional) warfare which is unlikely.

[shiv]

A sudden aha moment after reading Sridhar's post..

Just wondering if there is any explanation for GoI behavior.

Look at it like this. If there are no talks or relations what will happen if there is another terrorist attack? It has to be war or something beyond "breaking of relations"

What is being done now is to set up a situation in which talks can be broken off yet again in case of an attack. In other words there is a deliberate perpetuation of the very situation that has been recognised and pointed out on BRF i.e. "talks-more terror-break off talks...talks-more terror-break off talks...talks-more terror-break off talks..." ad nausaem.

Back on page 19, I wrote:

Question - if there is vague intelligence of an impending pigLet strike and GOI thinks its chances of stopping it are at best 50-50, then does it work for GOI to start talks? If pigLet strike occurs then GOI is then seen as fully justified in ending the talks; and also GOI can cite to Indians that it stopped the talks in retaliation for the strike and having this readymade action in hand, GOI can continue not to do anything more than that. Plausible?

Yes I recall that comment - and my Aha! moment may not have been original, but I believe that applying game theory to what is happening there are possible one of two games being played here, and GoI is forcing one type of game to be played while the nation is absorbing the damage as the terrorists and Paki army are trying to force a different game.

The fundamental assumptions that have to be made for me to say this are:

• The Paki army benefits by showing India to be the main threat. Removal of that threat is detrimental
• Jihadi forces get support from the Paki army to hit India
• India sees all out war as a costlier option than absorbing terrorist hits. Overall, lack of all out war and trade are beneficial to the "people of the subcontinent"

In the tat for tat game A slaps B and B slaps A. In the game, A can choose not to slap B and get slapped instead. The logic is that A gets hurt and B gets hurt. if A is willing to "not hit back" predictably, he is "tempting" B into not slapping at least once.

The sequence that "A" expects is as follows

B slaps
A slaps
B slaps
A slaps
B slaps
A does nothing
B slaps
A does nothing
B does nothing
A does nothing
B slaps again
A slaps back
B does nothing
A does nothing
B does nothing
A does nothing
B does nothing
A does nothing

The game is changed by A taking the initiative and taking some hits that he feels he can absorb while showing B that both can avoid pain by not slapping

However the second game is one of escalation
B slaps
A slaps
B pulls out a truncheon
A pulls out a truncheon
B pulls out a sword
A pulls out a sword
B pulls out a gun
A Pulls out a gun
A starts bashing B
C & D step in to stop the fight and save B's ass, an B lives to fight another day.

The second game favors the Pakistani army in its tactic of negotiating with the US by holding a gun to "its" head. Actually the gun only hurts the Paki economy and kills some jihadis - the Paki army itself is not harmed. A series of wars with India have shown that the Paki army can survive feat because Pakistan cannot be invaded by India and that the international community will step in.

GoI is trying to force the former game, while the Pakis army is playing the latter game. They are dead serious games, and not "fun" games of course.

[Rangudu]

Shiv,

My quick take on the list that you have is:

IIIa) TSP is causing severe injuries repeatedly and has shown that it will easily do the things higher on the list if India is not alert, unyielding and acts to deter it.

[Rangudu]

Satya_Anveshi,

India has been talking behind the scenes to both the civilian and real powers in TSP. That is necessary and justifiable.

What this latest chakka dance is doing is to reinforce the same beliefs in TSPA that have led to their ill-fated misadventures, i.e. that things like 26/11 work.

Yes, there is pressure from Unkil, but my main objections to this tamasha is based on the underlying motivations, that is putting India on a slippery slope.

The slope I'm talking about is one where MMS is prone to taking decisions without consulting anyone who may disagree with him. I'm not just talking about SeS, but about some sort of visa relaxation or "people-to-people" bakwas that will almost surely be used to create new and more dangerous jihadi cells deep inside India. The slippery slope will also all but lead to the loss of focus on internal security, with the whole GoI machinery aimed at enacting MMS' favorite "peace" programs. Forget the numerous comedy shows we can expect in J&K, we will almost surely see a move away from the rights India has in the Indus Waters Treaty and some actions to placate TSPA in Afghanistan.

P.S: The idea that India can somehow engage with the 150 million TSPians, who are somehow "victims" of terrorism is just silly. These same "victims" put jewely and rupees into the coffers of LeT and go on to blame Jews and Hindus when their favorite jihadis bite back. Besides, the common man in TSP has as much say in policy as the RSS has in setting the CPI(M) manifesto.

[Anujan]

Ball tampering is a standard operating procedure for the pakis: Ramiz Raja. So leave us alone.

Afridi comes from an era, a cricketing culture, where ball-tampering is considered a normal cricket activity, the done thing on flat Pakistani pitches - an art form and not a sin. It's been a part of the Pakistan team's standard operating procedure.

Is it not wrong that a game that preaches equality and fair play has confined bowlers to the status of inferiors in a master-servant relationship with the batsmen?

Unbelievable, these pakis! Ramiz is going to regret that he wrote this piece.

See, you dont understand it. Let me explain it.

See the "root causes" of ball tampering should be addressed. Ball-jihad is not cheating. It is legitmate resistance. Ball tampering is because of the principled stand taken by phreedom phyters against the oppressive domination of batsmen. Batsmen who are batting indulge in (international cricket) Council-terrorism. To eliminate ball tampering, the root causes should be addressed. Like gifting the match to Pakistan. Cricket is in the blood of Pakistanis and ball tampering wont end till the issue is resolved honorably by granting all matches to Pakistan.

The British, soon after they introduced cricket into the subcontinent for their own ulterior motives, left Pakistanis to fend for themselves and did not take an interest in giving them money. That caused a "cricket bat" culture and Afridi comes from an upbringing of ball-tampering in this culture. Thus, Pakistan itself is a victim of ball tampering.

We should identify "good ball tamperers" from "bad ball tamperers" and let the good ball tamperers play. Else it will only strengthen the hand of ball tamperers.

Oh, I also wish to point out that Pakistani cricket board does not train ball tamperers but only provides moral, diplomatic and political support to ball tampering.

[pgbhat]

[ArmenT]

Ball tampering is a standard operating procedure for the pakis: Ramiz Raja. So leave us alone.
Unbelievable, these pakis! Ramiz is going to regret that he wrote this piece.

Fun part is that Ramiz Raja claims that:

It will challenge a batsman's technique and will improve the standard of competition. Test cricket in the subcontinent on dead pitches will perhaps not be boring to watch anymore.

What this man didn't talk about was that this incident of ball-tampering didn't happen on a flat subcontinental pitch, it happened on a fairly lively Australian wicket.

[pgbhat]

The article is hilarious......it tries to do an equal-equal ..... Aussie Sledging and English moaning on subcontinent with that of Baki Ball tampering.

[Anujan]

The article is hilarious......it tries to do an equal-equal ..... Aussie Sledging and English moaning on subcontinent with that of Baki Ball tampering.

My post was written only half in jest. It has all ingredients of a Paki mind

1) Address "root causes" of ball tampering -- "As long as there is imbalance between bat and ball, there exists a possibility, a risk"
2) Ball-tampering is not cheating is legitimate resistance by oppressed -- "confined bowlers to the status of inferiors in a master-servant relationship with the batsmen"
3) Ball-jihad is not Ball-tampering, it is "ball freedom fighting" -- "Calling ball-tampering unlawful and an offence is regrettable."
4) Everybody does it -- "If ball-tampering is being openly admitted by the players...shouldn't the authorities.. bring it into the cricket syllabus" {He forgets that Afridi was *caught* and every player who "openly admitted it" is Pakistani}
5) Equal==Equal--"The Aussies have been brought up on sledging"
6) Its not Afridi's fault, it is his upbringing in "ball tampering culture" - "Afridi comes from an era, a cricketing culture, where ball-tampering is considered a normal cricket activity"

I think that while growing up, you have to pass a "how to be a Paki" exam before you are offered citizenship. Else you are snuck off to Afghanistan or something.

[CRamS]

What this latest chakka dance is doing is to reinforce the same beliefs in TSPA that have led to their ill-fated misadventures, i.e. that things like 26/11 work.

Lets be brutally honest. These so called "ill-fated misadentures" have worked wonders in TSP's favor:

1) The diabolical Kargil misadventure, at the very least should have sealed yellowsea == eyebee; instead Mush is correct, Kargil is all but forgotten and its "resolution" of Kashmir ad nauseum. Can anyone tell me what has TSP lost as a result of Kargil, and what has India gained other than pat on the back from Unkil & Co for fighting on our side of the LOC and sacrificing our troops?

2) The colossal evil perpetrated by TSP 26/11 should have brought India at the very very least on par with the west in the so called "war on terror". Instead, TSP has out maneuered itself out of any responsibility, cemented itself as a victim, painted India as some kind of aggressor, and once again\ everyone from Unkil's maacho men like Adm Mullen to chief western spokesman for the LeT, David Miliband lecture India on the need to "resolve" Kashmir.

3) TSP's diabolical acts against India in Afganistan, the most gory one being the sooosai attack on Indian embassy should have resulted in severe punishment for TSP, but forget any retribution, TSP has actually managed to get India's sorry ass kicked and humiliated at the recent London conference; Unkil and his poodles paying deference to TSP told India to shove its "soft power" where it belongs. Even Afghans say they like Indian moolah, but are scared and respect TSP. See what terror buys you.

4) On J&K, as I mentioned several times, if not for TSP's lethal weapon, LeT, would it even be on India's radar screen? India all but rendered the Hizbul a bunch of goats by late 90's; it is because of LET that TSP controls the ground situation in the valley. Have all the elections at great cost that India conducted in Kashmir cemented our soviergnty? Absolutely not. India's hold on the valley as at best tenuous.

5) The only overt, retaliatory, direct cost, other than maacho rhetroic and countless dossiers, that India has imposed on TSP in the last 10+ years that I can recall is the shooting down of a TSP navy aircraft carrier near the LOC.

6) India is coy and so scared to say anything negtaive, on the contrary so effusive in their empathy and praise for TSPians, recall the post IPL auction saga, lest TSP's loss of etch&dee would goad Kiyani give Hafeez Saeed the green signal.

The llist goes. YES, the LeT has been a lethal weapon in TSP's anti-India strategy. No 2 questions about it. And unless India can extract a price, the gains will only continue.

[Anujan]

3) TSP's diabolical acts against India in Afganistan, the most gory one being the sooosai attack on Indian embassy should have resulted in severe punishment for TSP, but forget any retribution, TSP has actually managed to get India's sorry ass kicked

We leveled a few ISI offices in Pakistan in retaliation. Our babooze & netas are all forgiving. The men with guns are not.

[Raja Bose]

that India has imposed on TSP in the last 10+ years that I can recall is the shooting down of a TSP navy aircraft carrier near the LOC.

pedantic correction....it was a TSP Navy aircraft (Atlantique) not an aircraft carrier (which as of now is non-existent in the TSP Navy - all their ships qualify as submarines though...once).

[putnanja]

See, you dont understand it. Let me explain it.
...
Oh, I also wish to point out that Pakistani cricket board does not train ball tamperers but only provides moral, diplomatic and political support to ball tampering.

Ball tampering is our jaguar vien alzo!

[Anujan]

From TOIlet

Not talking will mean falling into terror trap: Pak foreign minister

How do you look at this sudden change in India’s position?

India’s decision to suspend dialogue was knee-jerk..the internal politics didn’t help. The (Indian) opposition, for the sake of political point scoring, forgot the larger picture. And they tried to put the government on the defensive.
....
India has maintained that Pakistan hasn’t punished 26/11 accused? What is Pakistan’s stand on this?

We’ve apprehended seven accused and it shows our seriousness. Third party and dossier exchange might not be as productive as when you sit face-to-face and chart the way forward. I think this engagement will provide a better opportunity to both sides. If their concerns are about Hafiz Saeed and Mumbai attacks, let them put it on the table. If we’ve concerns about Balochistan, let us put it on the table.
....

Pakistan army chief recently said Islamabad’s strategic policies will remain India-centric as long as Kashmir and water disputes aren’t resolved. Does the political leadership share the view?

Yes, you have to understand that India-Pakistan relations have a history we can’t ignore. We’ve some outstanding issues. The two countries recognise them and have been in negotiations through composite dialogue. These outstanding issues have been recognised internationally. Kashmir issue has been recognised internationally and is on the UN agenda. The water dispute was recognised internationally and the World Bank played a role in the Indus water treaty in 1960.

[anupmisra]

Indian offer accepted, with caveats
Now there are caveats? Weren't the porkis bleating and begging for resumption of dialog? It is obvious that India is walking into a trap, as usual, especially the pakis are now referencing the understanding reached at SeS.

India’s proposal for foreign secretary-level talks in New Delhi this month has been more or less accepted by Pakistan with the caveat that it should be a step towards a full engagement on important issues, including Kashmir and terrorism, diplomatic sources here said on Saturday.

An old worry dogging India, ahead of the proposed foreign secretaries’ talks, is the fear of a revival of the hyphenated India-Pakistan equation before the world, a perception it believes it has successfully discarded.

In what sounded like an aloofness from the Sharm El Sheikh progress, where the issue of terrorism and continued dialogue were put in separate boxes, to the consternation of the entrenched hawks on both sides, she said: “Terrorism is not a tap you turn on and off because of the absence of or prevalence of dialogue.

[anupmisra]

Slinking back in
Pakistan cricket team returns quietly

The cricketers were ushered out of the Haj terminal instead of the Jinnah terminal and security officials even tried to shield them from the media.

Intikhab said: “It must be remembered that Pakistan have never fared any better in Australia.”

So, as the paklogic goes, why ruin a good trend?

[A_Gupta]

Shiv,

From B, the Pakistani Army's point of view, nothing could be better than this:

B slaps
A slaps
B slaps
A slaps
B slaps
A does nothing
B slaps
A does nothing
B slaps
A does nothing
B slaps
A does nothing
B slaps
A does nothing
etc.

B does not escalate, just keeps slapping away. B is perpetually winning, yet not diminishing the threat that gives B a primary claim on Pakistan's resources.

---

[SSridhar]

From TOIlet

Not talking will mean falling into terror trap: Pak foreign minister

I really fail to understand the meaning of such Pakistani statements that 'we fall into terrorist trap if we don't talk' or 'we have to collectively tackle terrorism', when Pakistani state actors are directly sponsoring, funding, training and supporting terrorism in India. Is the Pakistani FM saying that Indian Army should help the Pakistani political leadership in defeating the Pakistani Army and the ISI ?

How do you look at this sudden change in India’s position?

India’s decision to suspend dialogue was knee-jerk..the internal politics didn’t help. The (Indian) opposition, for the sake of political point scoring, forgot the larger picture. And they tried to put the government on the defensive.

The Pakistani FM has breached propreity here grossly by talking about India's internal politics. Of course, they never cared and India never objected. He is also trying to drive a wedge by suggesting that the ruling party would have continued the talks after the horrendous carnage but for the opposition. It is also an insult to India when he claims that the recation was 'knee-jerk'

But insults, interference and innuendoes will only grow when a much stronger country crawls on all its four after repeatedly absorbing blows for decades.

[Pranav]

Shiv,

From B, the Pakistani Army's point of view, nothing could be better than this:

B slaps
A slaps
B slaps
A slaps
B slaps
A does nothing
B slaps
A does nothing
B slaps
A does nothing
B slaps
A does nothing
B slaps
A does nothing
etc.

B does not escalate, just keeps slapping away. B is perpetually winning, yet not diminishing the threat that gives B a primary claim on Pakistan's resources.

---

The response to a slap should not be to slap back, but something more Chanakyan. Doing justice to this subject would need a separate thread.

[Prasad]

The response to a slap should not be to slap back, but something more Chankian.

Assymetrical - A kick in the nuts.

[Pranav]

The response to a slap should not be to slap back, but something more Chanakyan.

Assymetrical - A kick in the nuts.

No, that's just a simple escalation. If you go along the path of simple escalation, you get to the stage of nukes, which the Pakis love, because that allows them to do an ==.

[A_Gupta]

The response to a slap should not be to slap back, but something more Chankian.

The Chanakyan thing to do would be to make the slapper score the equivalent of a self-goal.

[Pranav]

The response to a slap should not be to slap back, but something more Chanakyan.

The Chanakyan thing to do would be to make the slapper score the equivalent of a self-goal.

That's one of the principles. But there is a rich universe of possibilities.

[pgbhat]

Dance of the baboons ---- Masood Hasan

And then there is Shahid Afridi or, to get it correctly, Sahibzada Mohammad Shahid Khan Afridi, him of the team of baboons chattering and jumping about as the Aussies systematically roasted them over large bonfires lit by the baboons themselves. Till mid-Jan this year, the man has played 293 ODIs 26 tests, 57 Twenty20s, is almost 30, if he is to be believed. Yet, in the 5th ODI, in the tense 46th over, he starts to tamper the ball, gnawing at it like baboons do. "I was smelling it," he says later. Oh please, Mr Afridi. He chews at the seam in the middle of a packed Perth ground with dozens of cameras capturing every moment in super slow-mo.

The terrible cricketing crime is seen by millions on TV. When confronted, as he was going to be, the Sahibzada apologises and says he was tampering the ball so that Pakistan could win the face-saving 5th ODI – "just one match," he pleads to Geo. Hello? "All teams do it," the genius next announces. That, of course, makes it right in Afridi's thin book of rules.

He is banned by the ICC under the rules governing this series for the next two matches and is also unable to take part in a later match vs. England in Dubai. But this is the ICC, not the PCB.

But to get back to our Jinn, although in its present state, the Pakistan cricket team, well over 19, is hardly the kind of meat anyone would wish to eat -- stale, smelly and rancid, it is best to avoid it. Like the Jinn the Pakistani people are confused whether to laugh or cry over the bizarre events that have unfolded like a bad script ever since the miserable Pakistanis landed Down Under, a team asunder from day one. What has since happened is less and less like cricket and more and more like a very bad joke that has been remorselessly thrust down our throats by the clowns who call themselves Test cricketers. A bunch of highly erratic baboons would have done better than these "seasoned" campaigners and "talented" youngsters, the combination of which was touted as the best thing to happen to Pakistan cricket. Sure.

While I am no expert, I can surmise, like many of us can, that there are four theatres that are in play that together add up to what we call Pakistan cricket. There is the PCB which specialises in being the goofiest organisation known to mankind, there is the team, a bunch of unruly, greedy, under-performing yahoos, there is the team management which is as inspiring as a log of wood on a rainy day. And then there are the yobs in the Senate and the National Assembly who have nothing better to do all day than rant and rave, pronounce judgments and summon all manner of people to appear before them – all this noise leading to nothing. These interfering nobodies are just as bad as all the other components that cause national embarrassment, day in and day out.

This nonsense has simply gone too far. Are there any good men or women ready to bury the rotting cadaver called Pakistan cricket and begin the daunting and frightening task of rebuilding the game, from A to Z (an unfortunate expression, I confess)? My answer is, "No." Baboons will be replaced by baboons. That's the way it goes.

[pgbhat]

Islam, cricket and Pakistan ---- Dr Hasan-Askari Rizvi

The Afridi ball-tampering incident can be traced back to the Pakistan state-sponsored education and socialisation project initiated in the mid-1980s by the military government of General Ziaul Haq. This pattern of education and socialisation lasted into the first decade of this century. State education, the state-media and the state’s reward system shifted the focus of young people from Pakistan as a nation-state, civic education in the context of citizenship, and cultural-religious pluralism to Islam as a transnational identity, religious-Islamic explanation and interpretation of the past and the present, greater attention to conservative Islamic ritualism, global conspiracy against the Muslims and admiration for militancy.

These policies produced a generation whose intellectual and psychological ties are weak with Pakistan as a nation-state and it invariably views the domestic and international processes within religious parameters. The main discourse of this generation is Islamic-conservative, and greater emphasis on public display of religiousness. Several cricketers have become Islamic preachers and there were reports of collective offering of prayers in cricket fields. This disposition has got nothing to do with professionalism and sports discipline.

With such a blinkered disposition, one can engage in offensive activities that cannot be condemned from a purely religious point of view. A ‘victory’ against the non-believers is a desirable objective from personal and collective perspectives. Therefore, the rules of the game and professionalism become secondary.

[pgbhat]

Right click for revolution ---- Nadeem F. Paracha

They fear democracy to be a threat to Pakistan’s imagined existence as a monotheistic state and society based on a single (state-sanctioned and clergy-approved) strain of the faith. The pro-Musharraf ‘moderates’ have, at best, sounded like 21st century versions of Ziaul Haq. Instead of a shervani and a stern frown, they can be seen in modern, western clothes and designer shalwar-kameez spouting the most worn-out rhetoric and narrative that first started to be built up by the state under Zia and his politico-religious sidekicks.

It’s the usual dead beat: Pakistan and democracy are not compatible; democratic pluralism promotes ethnocentricity; secularism is akin to atheism; religious extremism and violence is the handiwork of the ‘anti-Pakistan’ and ‘anti-Islam’ elements (mainly foreign), and the state and intelligence agencies of Pakistan had nothing to with it; there is only one correct version of Islam but most Pakistanis follow a corrupted and adulterated version because they are illiterate and superstitious; anyone questioning these assumptions is a traitor; only politicians are corrupt; and that we need a strong leader who cannot come through democracy because most Pakistanis are ignorant.

However, if one is to notice the content and tone of the children of this largely cosmetic middle-ground today, what it really meant was that religious extremism that was attacking the monolithic Pakistani state was bad, but those extremists attacking everyone else (non-Pakistani and non-Muslims), were misunderstood.

All in all, this so-called middle-ground basically advocated a sympathetic attitude towards extremism, or in other words, as long as this extremism did not challenge the Pakistani state, the army and the intelligence agencies, it needed to be empathised with either as a liberation movement against ‘American/Hindu/ Zionist designs in the region’, or as a bunch of ‘misled’ and poor tribal people exploited by politicians, Americans, and, of course, the NGOs.

Thus, anyone questioning the padded extremism and soft authoritarianism peddled by ‘enlightened moderation’ is a ‘liberal extremist’ who is undermining religion (and/or undermining the monolithic version of Islam concocted by the state and its ulema); and promoting ‘corrupt politicians’ and violent ethnic thugs (who, nonetheless, have not come in through any mysterious backdoor, but through the ballot).

[Satya_anveshi]

Rangudu,

Yes, there is pressure from Unkil, but my main objections to this tamasha is based on the underlying motivations, that is putting India on a slippery slope.

The slope I'm talking about is one where MMS is prone to taking decisions without consulting anyone who may disagree with him. I'm not just talking about SeS, but about some sort of visa relaxation or "people-to-people" bakwas that will almost surely be used to create new and more dangerous jihadi cells deep inside India. The slippery slope will also all but lead to the loss of focus on internal security, with the whole GoI machinery aimed at enacting MMS' favorite "peace" programs. Forget the numerous comedy shows we can expect in J&K, we will almost surely see a move away from the rights India has in the Indus Waters Treaty and some actions to placate TSPA in Afghanistan.

Let's take this further (your comments highlighted in blue). We all know that US pressure is primarily because of its announced exit (~July 2010) from Afghanistan. There is still no clear-cut strategy on who to handover the power to but there is a recognition that Pak has the greatest influence via Taliban (and at least greater than India). The only way we are going to deny pakistan regain strategic depth in Afghanistan is by a) maximizing our presence and leverage in Afghanistan b) ensuring Afghanistan's nascent democratic govt continues to run the show and constitution is enforced c) Afghanistan builds capabilities to defend its independence for which it needs training and equipment

We further know of US's view that road to greater Indian role in Afghanistan goes via Pakistan for various reasons (from strategic to operational).

That makes it imperative for us to somehow understand and where possibl accommodate pakistan's issues via-a-vis Afghanistan with suitable quid pro quo.

I think the above can be said about MMS's or GOI's *motivations*.

If so, what are some of the steps one can propose towards realizing these motives/objectives - The theater is afghanistan where it should necessarily be diplomatic play and we know the players, their stand / perspectives and so it might be impossible to break the logjam.

So, (karanthapar in me kicks in), MMS may be trying to bring in his personal "charisma and vision" to make some concessions (with major red lines maintained) on J&K front and advancing our interests in Afghanistan. I completely agree with you that this is dangerous game and MMS (unfortunately commands less trust premium especially after SeS) but if that is the script, are their any other issues?

What is your perspective about how we should maintain and maximize our leverage in Afghanistan after US's exit (assuming you agree with me that whole charade is necessitated by that)?

I also like to say that just as you say communicating with 150M TSPians at this juncture is a non-issue for us, can't we say people-to-people visa in a limited theater of J&K is not going to be THE reasons for incubating more terror cells? I mean, they happen regardless of these symbolic gestures and we still have to bust them as we find them.

I hope MEA, MOD and INC/BJP play their roles in checking MMS and protecting Indian interests.

[sum]

3) TSP's diabolical acts against India in Afganistan, the most gory one being the sooosai attack on Indian embassy should have resulted in severe punishment for TSP, but forget any retribution, TSP has actually managed to get India's sorry ass kicked

We leveled a few ISI offices in Pakistan in retaliation. Our babooze & netas are all forgiving. The men with guns are not.

Anujan-saar,
Are you saying the RAA had a hand in all the ISI office re decorations a few months back?