India-US News and Discussion

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 17 Jun 2010 16:57

Sanku wrote:http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/bhopal-g ... php?u=1025

Bhopal gas tragedy: Centre arranged Anderson's release, says ex-US diplomat

Gordon Streeb: The only people I dealt with were at the ministry so as far as I know this was a decision by the Government of India at the federal level, at the central level.

Isn't that piece of news getting published is poking one's own eye? this news may create some ruckus in Parliament....potential enough to threaten nuke liability bill..

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 17 Jun 2010 17:03

ramana wrote:I think its lip service by US to pretend they are against the nuke sale to TSP by PRC. The PRC will transfer more nukes to TSP and US wont and more importantly cant do anything about it.

Is this PRC's pound of flesh for PRC's nominal cooperation against Iran in UNSC? Nukes against Israel for nukes against India! Nukes for America's MuNNA for Nukes for America's declared enemy. PRC is known for their business skills. One would expect the bargaining to be nuclear chips for nuclear chips! Just speculating!

Speculating further:
Have USA, PRC, Saudi Arabia and Israel arrived at some deal wrt Iran, which involves strengthening Pakistan (because PRC wants it) while Iran is destroyed by Israelis?

'a bit OT' --
If that is the case, then Ahmedinejad's tirades against Israel and Iran's support to Hezbollah and Hamas are not helping India's cause one bit. Iran should reconsider its ambition as the leader of Ummah, and forget Hezbollah and Hamas. They have a lot on their plate, stabilization of a Shi'ite Iraq and retrenching of ISI-backed Taliban in Afghanistan. Shi'ites in Pakistan get massacred day-in and day-out. Iran should do a major rethink regarding Israel and USA.

Where are India's nuclear chips, btw? How about some nuclear help to the Taiwanese and Vietnamese and Philippines?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 17 Jun 2010 17:16

Venkarl wrote: Isn't that piece of news getting published is poking one's own eye? this news may create some ruckus in Parliament....potential enough to threaten nuke liability bill..

They are confident that MMS will deliver what they need. After all MMS govt has the lowest action taken % (a figure which is compiled in parliament about how many promises or claims that the Govt made were later presented as completed with action taken report) The figure quoted was less than 40% where as ALL govts including the Fumbling harmer's did better (80% was the previous lowest ever figure)

Over last six years many institutions have been hurt by misuse (CBI etc) and parliament leads in that.

Basically the parliament has been rendered redundant for decision making, everything happens in the back ground and is only played out in the parliament.

(Ex being nuke deal where the SP voted with the Govt on the no confidence motion and was aligned with it just long enough to act on the Nuke deal)

Similarly, here whether the Nuke deal goes through or not depends on a single person. Lalu Prasad Yadav, which in turn depends on Bihar elections later.

So its Bihar elections holding this govt back, once the political alignment are clear they move in for the kill.

The only way this will stop is that BOTH Congress and Lalu get wiped out in Bihar and the resulting picture makes them so weak that new alignments happen in RS thus blocking the bill.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 17 Jun 2010 17:24

After all even in 1984 UCC was confident that it can get out without any problem, it made sure it said so on many occasions including official statements like "how much more money is needed for a Indian".

They have in the past, used their links with the party that in Govt right now to get a clean chit and wash their hands off the mess and let some one else clean it for them.

Why should they worry now? Even with a fumbling harmer of their own at the helm?

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 17 Jun 2010 17:39

India needs a relationship of equals; the US will not offer that

India should strive to establish itself as a pole in a multi-polar world consisting of a G-3 or G-4 -- including itself and the European Union -- instead of being a satellite to a sinking America, says Rajeev Srinivasan.
The 'Strategic Dialogue' between India and the United States certainly sounds important. The question is whether there is any substance behind the rhetoric. Going by past history, it is likely that this will be yet another false dawn in Indo-US relations.

An incisive analyst, Brahma Chellaney, summed up Indian scepticism on Twitter: 'The US has realised the simple way to keep Indians happy: An occasional ego-massage. After (United States President Barack) Obama's eulogy, Indians will stay content for a while.'

It is true that the oratory emanating from the Obama administration -- both from Under Secretary for Political Affairs William Burns and from President Obama himself -- has been honeyed. But then pretty speechifying is Obama's forte. However, there isn't any steak behind the sizzle: Just two weeks ago, the US silently acquiesced to the Chinese giving Pakistan, with no strings attached, a nuclear deal as good as the 'deal' India got at great strategic cost to itself.

Further, Indians have not forgotten that India's prime minister was not in the list of twenty world leaders Obama telephoned after his accession to the presidency; there was the plan to make Richard Holbrooke a mediator on Kashmir; the appointment of Ellen Tauscher, arch-non-proliferation ayatollah and harsh critic of India, as under-secretary for arms control; and most of all, the hard-to-defend hedging on letting Indian officials interrogate (Pakistani American Lashkar-e-Tayiba operative) David Coleman Headley, one of the alleged conspirators in the 26 Mumbai attacks.

There are plenty of large reasons why the hurrahs about an alleged Indo-US rapprochement are premature. First, even the Bush-era friendship was narrowly focused -- Indian leaders, for unknown reasons, plumped for a hard-to-justify nuclear-based energy future. The Indian eagerness was exploited by the Americans to straitjacket New Delhi into non-proliferation regimes that severely constrain its strategic options.

Second, the other Bush objective, to build India up as a counterweight to a rampant China, fell by the wayside with the Obamistas' clear preference for a G2, suggesting that a China-US duopoly is inevitable, and conceding to China the role of hegemon in Asia, the Indian Ocean, and the western Pacific Ocean and, explicitly, in the Indian subcontinent.

Third, Obama has stated unequivocally that he intends to cut and run from Afghanistan. He believes he needs a Pakistani fig leaf to claim victory in the face of a humiliating defeat and a headlong retreat like Saigon in 1975. Therefore, he leans on India to give 'concessions' to Pakistan. It costs him nothing.

Fourth, there is a history of American duplicity. American promises of eternal, undying love are pure theatrics. Bitter experiences with reneging on treaty obligations for fuel for the Tarapur atomic plant, a slew of nuclear treaties such as the Non-Proliferation Treaty, the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, Fissile Material Cut-Off Treaty, etc -- all aimed at India in particular -- and the decades-old acceptance of Chinese nuclear proliferation to Pakistan, suggest American bad faith.

Fifth, the fundamental premise behind an Indo-US relationship is flawed. There is an underlying assumption that the world will remain unipolar and American-dominated, with at best China being a secondary, less appealing second pole, and that therefore it is incumbent on India to align with the US lest it be left out in the cold.

The facts on the ground do not support this assumption. America is waning. Yes, it will continue to be the biggest world power for a while yet, but the US in 2050 will be much less dominant than in 1950. In 1950, America bestrode the world like a colossus, intact in a World-War II-ravaged world. In 2050, China and India will be nipping at its heels.

India can never ally with imperialist China, which seeks to dominate Asia, if not the world. They leave no room for a rival, and systematically undermine all potential competitors. It appears that, after a series of reverses, it has dawned on the US that the alleged G2 -- although favored by unreconstructed cold-warriors like Zbigneiw Brezezinski and apologists for empire like Niall Ferguson -- is of greater advantage to China than to itself.

This may explain the sudden interest in India by the Obamistas. The Democrats' natural instinct is intensely anti-India. This is standard 'liberal' hypocrisy, wherein they pay lip service to democracy and freedom and other motherhood, but secretly admire fascist thugs, despots and dictators like those in China, Pakistan and Iran -- all targets of Obamista overtures.

There is also the pragmatic reason that India's economy is growing rapidly. Much like the 19th century Britons, Americans seek markets. China, the other large market, is difficult, and extracts its pound of flesh, as seen in Google's troubles. Especially as India will invest in buying armaments, aircraft and other big-ticket items where the US still has a competitive edge, it is a tempting market. That is good for the US.

But these are not reasons for India to ally itself with the US. In fact, there has been little improvement in scientific, technical or other ties. The Indian space effort remains cut off by law from most of America's technology. In other ways too, India is treated as a pariah by the US government, on par with dangerous, failing states. There is also the perennial litmus test -- when will the US unambiguously endorse India for a veto-holding permanent seat in the UN Security Council?

No relationship can survive when the benefits are one-sided. Therefore, India will be better off not tying itself to a waning power, at a time when it is itself on the rise. An America beset with financial problems, with receding self-confidence, and with the Gulf oil-spill as metaphor for its decline, is not worth allying with. At least, not unless India gets concrete, and massive, benefits in return. Time favours India.

There is no point in being a satellite to a sinking, unreliable America -- instead, India should strive to establish itself as a pole in a multi-polar world consisting of, perhaps, a G3 or G4 -- including itself and the European Union.

Better to live two days as a tiger than two hundred years as a sheep, like Tipu Sultan is supposed to have said.

Rajeev Srinivasan

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 17 Jun 2010 17:42

^^^^^^
That article was written by a BRFite, it is BRF through and through.....

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Jun 2010 18:47

ramana wrote:
M K Rasgotra is no talking yet.

Rasgotra has been named by Streep and Rasgotra has taken the only recourse open to a guy desperate to protect his pension.

He has blamed PVN who is not around to defend himself.

The current climate fostered by the rajmata will not allow any one credible to support PVN, a man who was a giant when all others were mere pygmies.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Jun 2010 19:39

shyamd wrote:India needs a relationship of equals; the US will not offer that

To me this sounds like an insufferably whiny article that yearns for things that will not be. It is certainly by a BRFite of the genre who gets mad at the fact that Pakistan treats us like equals when the truth is we are closer to Pakistan in clout than the USA.

sum · Post by **sum** » 17 Jun 2010 21:27

The current climate fostered by the rajmata will not allow any one credible to support PVN, a man who was a giant when all others were mere pygmies.

Virtually everything under the sun which can be blamed on the Congress/ruling dynasty is being heaped onto PVNR these days.

I wonder how long it will be before even the blame on 1962 debacle will be put on PVNR?

satyam · Post by **satyam** » 17 Jun 2010 21:50

China-pak nuclear deal will be not even close to Indo- US nuclear deal. We can get reactor and fuel from any nation. Pak can't.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Jun 2010 21:56

sum wrote:
The current climate fostered by the rajmata will not allow any one credible to support PVN, a man who was a giant when all others were mere pygmies.
Virtually everything under the sun which can be blamed on the Congress/ruling dynasty is being heaped onto PVNR these days.

I wonder how long it will be before even the blame on 1962 debacle will be put on PVNR?

How else will the seat be kept warm for the ~~raj puppy~~ oops yuvaraj?

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 17 Jun 2010 22:28

Sorry if posted already

Narasimha Rao decided on Anderson’s safe passage: Rasgotra

Atlast Shri Deadman takes the blame. Shitty kangress.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 17 Jun 2010 22:50

Virtually everything under the sun which can be blamed on the Congress/ruling dynasty is being heaped onto PVNR these days.

It may be that PVNR is being wronged ..but how separated was he from the Congress dynasty/power circles? Was he not one of the loyalists all his life too?

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 17 Jun 2010 23:08

viv wrote:
Virtually everything under the sun which can be blamed on the Congress/ruling dynasty is being heaped onto PVNR these days.
It may be that PVNR is being wronged ..but how separated was he from the Congress dynasty/power circles? Was he not one of the loyalists all his life too?

Viv, that's not the point. PVNR may or may not have had a role in the process of Anderson's flight from justice for Bhopal, but there is no question it went far beyond him, and that the decision had to have been taken at the top level. Yet the Maino-Manmohan Cabal is sparing no effort to convince people that the responsibility is 400% that of Narasimha Rao.

The Bhopal Gas Tragedy happened at a time when certain Western industrialists could defraud the Indian exchequer or kill masses of Indian citizens through negligence, and emerge entirely unscathed. It is no coincidence who happened to be in 10 Janpath at that time.

Warren Anderson's getting away scot-free was just the most shocking incidence of this during the Rajiv Gandhi administration. Octavio Quattrocchi, that dear friend of Sonia Maino, is another westerner who got away with grand larceny against the Indian nation during the same regime.

If the nuclear non-liability bill passes we are in for much more of this, and probably far worse. The Maino-Manmohan Cabal has always stood for a Free India ("Free" not as in "Azad" but as in "Muft"!)

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 Jun 2010 00:02

viv wrote:
Virtually everything under the sun which can be blamed on the Congress/ruling dynasty is being heaped onto PVNR these days.
It may be that PVNR is being wronged ..but how separated was he from the Congress dynasty/power circles? Was he not one of the loyalists all his life too?

NO; I watched the full interview Karan Thapar, explicitly asked him,

-------------------------------------------
IF the PM had a issue he would step in right

Right

So we can assume that PM had no issues

Right

But he did not explicitly clear him

I was the foreign secretory he would have to meet me if had any difference on what we were doing

Vashishtha · Post by **Vashishtha** » 18 Jun 2010 02:20

I don't know if this has crossed your minds yet but recent developments show that US is openly saying GOI let this guy out. What if the US can use this as a playing card??
I mean threaten GOI by revealing how it(GOI) ensured safe gateway for anderson in exchange for mmrca, kashmir....etc. If this happens then either congress or India is doomed, right??

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 18 Jun 2010 07:21

Obama Gets High Marks Abroad, Survey Finds

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/18/world/18pewpoll.html

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 18 Jun 2010 07:29

Vashishtha wrote:I don't know if this has crossed your minds yet but recent developments show that US is openly saying GOI let this guy out. What if the US can use this as a playing card??
I mean threaten GOI by revealing how it(GOI) ensured safe gateway for anderson in exchange for mmrca, kashmir....etc. If this happens then either congress or India is doomed, right??

I think nuclear business is a big ticket deal than MMRCA....kashmir?? they don't really care.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Jun 2010 08:39

satyam wrote:China-pak nuclear deal will be not even close to Indo- US nuclear deal. We can get reactor and fuel from any nation. Pak can't.

But yet Pakistan has its way. My neighbour can eat in any restaurant in any part of the world. I can only eat in my local Kamat hotel. But I am better fed than my neighbour.

Pakistan has (and has had) implicit and explicit support from the US and China. India has had to fight for that support which is given reluctantly and taken reluctantly by Indians who feel they are selling out.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 18 Jun 2010 10:01

viv wrote:It may be that PVNR is being wronged ..but how separated was he from the Congress dynasty/power circles? Was he not one of the loyalists all his life too?

Wasn't he a RSS member? Couldn't have been much of a loyalist.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 18 Jun 2010 10:17

[quote="vera_k]

Wasn't he a RSS member? Couldn't have been much of a loyalist.

[/quote]

satyam · Post by **satyam** » 18 Jun 2010 17:12

US lawmakers rap corporates for preferring China over India

American corporate giants faced a tough time on the Capitol Hill as lawmakers grilled them as to why they were opting to do business with communist China over a democratic India.

Robert Hollyman, president and CEO, Business Software Alliance, told the Congressional panel: "China is the number two largest market for personal computers to the US. It is larger than the combined market for India, Brazil and Russia in terms of sales of personal computers.( The question is who made them bigger market . By giving them MFN status in trade US made them)

Capitol Hill, McDermott said that now executives are talking about the fact that China is the past, and people are now looking at Korea and India because of their rule of law and the fact that one doesn't get thrown in jail for reasons one can't understand, as one can in China.

"The thing is that we have to do the hard work that it takes to go after the issues with the Chinese, but when the good faith negotiations fail then we do have to look to WTO consistent trade remedies as we have done," he said.

McDermott said one of the things that he can't understand is why the US continues to act like it is going to get a different result with China tomorrow.

"I have for a long time tried to offer India as an alternative. India operates under the rule of law. They speak English. They have intellectual property rights that they want to protect." he said.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... a/98473/on

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 19 Jun 2010 07:35

US to Create New India-specific Export Control Regime

WASHINGTON, D.C. - Anticipating a wider cooperation with India in space and defense, US is working out a new India specific export control regime to ease restrictions on export of hi-tech equipment.

Well, hopefully that will move us beyond equal-equal with Pak.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 19 Jun 2010 17:54

Oh, they will do a Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V on the existing rules, and call it India specific.

ajit_tr · Post by **ajit_tr** » 19 Jun 2010 19:01

Bhopal, BP and karma

By Chan Akya

BP chief executive Tony Hayward (in a stiff British accent): "Members of congress, I come here not to apologize but to express my irritation at being here in the first place. BP is a foreign company, and we operated Deepwater in the Gulf of Mexico as an offshore facility regulated as a ship (not a drilling well) under US law. Everything we did was acceptable under US law. We cut corners and costs, in order to produce the oil demanded by your people. Our suppliers such as Halliburton and Transocean are American companies so this is all your fault really. You bought our oil for all this time, and made our shareholders rich, so thank you for that.

Accidents happen, and I am afraid you will have to live with the consequences of this one. Look at the positive side of things. If no oil had leaked, we would have simply sold all of it to your SUV drivers and the resulting carbon dioxide - or C02 - emissions would have polluted the whole world. Instead, all that leaking oil only pollutes the waters off the southern USA, a relatively small part of the world.

If you don’t like my answer, I have one word for you: Bhopal."

A fictitious exchange between BP and the US Congress, in a parallel universe.

Watching Hayward being mauled in front of congress on Thursday, the thoughts in the back of my mind related not so much to sympathy for the American point of view but rather for the CEO. Instead of agreeing with the generally held opinion that BP is to blame for all the problems in the Gulf of Mexico - a view that has been cemented by an apparent history of cost-cutting that led to the mishap - my feelings are now tending towards the Karmic perspective, that is, that what BP is doing to America is pretty much what American companies have done and are doing to the rest of the world.

Perhaps BP, formerly British Petroleum, is merely exacting vengeance on Americans on behalf of Britain's former colony, India. Two wrongs don't make a right for sure, but when Americans sit around bawling about the sheer injustice of it all, the rest of the world could well use examples like Bhopal to still feel less than sympathetic.
.
.
.

Reacting to the declining profitability of the plant in the early 1980s, management enacted a number of cost savings as well as holding back much-needed capital expenditure that would have helped restore various safety systems to acceptable standards.

The end result was that on December 3, 1984, water entered tanks storing methyl isocyanate (MIC), a poisonous gas that should never have been stored in this form in the first place; the resulting build-up of pressure caused a leak that spread the gas over Bhopal, killing more than 2,000 people, according to the official figure, and maiming tens of thousands more. Additionally, subsequent generations of people in Bhopal have shown the effects of MIC poisoning with deformities, congenital health problems, cancer and painful deaths. (Some estimates say that more than 15,000 people died after the initial leak.)

Adding insult to injury, US courts ruled that Union Carbide couldn't be tried in US courts for the crimes against Indians (it is interesting that various US politicians make the case for trying foreigners for alleged crimes against Americans even though its own citizens can never be tried for crimes against foreigners in their courts). The parent company, Union Carbide, was put into liquidation and subsequently acquired by another company (Dow Chemical). After this acquisition, the name Union Carbide is still used, even though Dow Chemical has refuted all responsibility for the 1984 catastrophe.

The response of Union Carbide to Indians has been on the lines of "Accidents happen.
So there you have it, courtesy of a British newspaper - the exact strategy that BP needs to follow against America. Put up a few of its American employees for trial (at vast public expense), hand over the Gulf of Mexico site to the government, and pretty much say "Ta".
.
.
.
Karma
Americans have mass cognitive dissonance with respect to their self-image. In their own minds, they view the American system as "fair, equitable, meritocratic, innovative and good". They also perceive that this view is considerably different in the minds of foreigners: "greedy, evil, litigious, hypocritical, lazy". Americans view their enterprise system through companies like Apple, Google and Boeing. The rest of the world views the system through the eyes of companies like GM, Goldman Sachs and McDonald's.

Reaction in the US media after the Bhopal verdict on June 7 was muted. My random sweep through Google revealed factual news items, but virtually no expression of outrage in the American or European media. Sure, there was much outrage expressed in the Indian media but then again, that appears to have been directed (justifiably) against their own courts and politicians rather than (also justifiably) a foreign company.

The evils of Union Carbide cannot be swept under the carpet. There cannot be sympathy for the American plight after accidents like BP, when the same accidents in the rest of the world (at much higher cost to people and livelihood) are underplayed.
.
.
.
The lack of reaction to the Union Carbide issue renders comical the US media reaction to the BP situation where a "mere" 11 people died compared with the thousands in India. It is a big environmental disaster, but then again, if all that oil hadn't been lost to the sea it would have simply ended up in the gas tanks of American vehicles and polluted the whole world. In that respect, having it leak and polluting "only" the swamplands of southern US can be considered a "good" thing for the rest of the world.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 19 Jun 2010 19:09

Venkarl wrote:Sorry if posted already

Narasimha Rao decided on Anderson’s safe passage: Rasgotra

Atlast Shri Deadman takes the blame. Shitty kangress.

INC's intellectual dishonesty has no bottom. They get into a b*tch-fit when a dead Rajiv Gandhi is blamed, but they don't have any problem is pushing the blame on other dead (true)Indians.

It is disgusting to see that the likes of Pranab-da, PC etc make these statements where as the Maino-Manmohan Cabal and SG/RGjr psychophants remain silent. Tomorrow RGIII will make sure that all the blame for today's mistakes squarely fall on these very leaders...

Shows a pattern...

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 19 Jun 2010 19:15

shiv wrote:
satyam wrote:China-pak nuclear deal will be not even close to Indo- US nuclear deal. We can get reactor and fuel from any nation. Pak can't.

But yet Pakistan has its way. My neighbour can eat in any restaurant in any part of the world. I can only eat in my local Kamat hotel. But I am better fed than my neighbour.

Pakistan has (and has had) implicit and explicit support from the US and China. India has had to fight for that support which is given reluctantly and taken reluctantly by Indians who feel they are selling out.

Not only that China can get whatever Pakistan needs thru KKH. It is like Pakis are part of P-5 for all practical purposes as long as they hold India tight...

This is something that Indians must keep in mind when they think of alternative approaches to Paki problem... The costs keep mounting as India grows.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 19 Jun 2010 19:32

ajit_tr wrote:Bhopal, BP and karma
By Chan Akya

USA got a slush fund of $20B and Ombaba immediately clarifies that this is not the limit.

Where as the whimps in New Delhi are wasting their time in blaming each other and backstabbing this nation by signing a nuke-liability bill.

Ameet · Post by **Ameet** » 19 Jun 2010 22:18

Record number of Indian-Americans seeking office

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100619/ap_ ... oliticians

Sagrawal · Post by **Sagrawal** » 19 Jun 2010 22:46

Ameet wrote:Record number of Indian-Americans seeking office

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100619/ap_ ... oliticians

wow, reading at comments, I never knew so much ppl hate Indians in US. I never met anyone during my stay there.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 19 Jun 2010 23:03

Madhusudhan · Post by **Madhusudhan** » 19 Jun 2010 23:03

A general rule seems to be that Liberals hate Indians and other relatively successful foreigners while conservatives reserve their disdain to Illegal mexican immigrants, etc. Not that conservatives love Indians, but Liberals seem to have a special hatred reserved for Indians and some sort of undying love for Pakistan, Palestinians, etc.

But from an Indian perspective, it would be best to be like Jewish groups - For example, the secular neo-conservative Jews have successfully utilized evangelical christians (who don't particularly like Jews or Judaism) to pursue their foreign policy aims. Find losers of all kinds and use them to further your goals.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 19 Jun 2010 23:06

Madhusudhan wrote:A general rule seems to be that Liberals hate Indians and other relatively successful foreigners while conservatives reserve their disdain to Illegal mexican immigrants, etc. Not that conservatives love Indians, but Liberals seem to have a special hatred reserved for Indians and some sort of undying love for Pakistan, Palestinians, etc.

But from an Indian perspective, it would be best to be like Jewish groups - For example, the secular neo-conservative Jews have successfully utilized evangelical christians (who don't particularly like Jews or Judaism) to pursue their foreign policy aims. Find losers of all kinds and use them to further your goals.

Would you mind backing this up?

Madhusudhan · Post by **Madhusudhan** » 19 Jun 2010 23:14

Really don't want to get into a pi**ing contest about who likes India better - Liberals or Conservatives. It has been my experience that liberals generally prefer to defend the dregs of humanity while demonizing Israel, Indian security forces, etc. But it really doesn't matter. Indians should focus on furthering their interest while being wary of all sides.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 19 Jun 2010 23:18

We're not talking about relations with "India" or relations with "Israel", your claim was pretty specific, "Liberals hate Indians" not "Liberals demonise India and its security forces" very different. Oh since you mentioned Israel, I hope you realize that Jews have traditionally and even today vote Democratic and are strongly liberal as a group.

Sagrawal · Post by **Sagrawal** » 19 Jun 2010 23:29

Does any of more informed people here know how much taxes Indian Americans and Indians working in massaland pay every year?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 19 Jun 2010 23:55

Madhusudhan wrote:A general rule seems to be that Liberals hate Indians and other relatively successful foreigners while conservatives reserve their disdain to Illegal mexican immigrants, etc. Not that conservatives love Indians, but Liberals seem to have a special hatred reserved for Indians and some sort of undying love for Pakistan, Palestinians, etc.

The white supremacists, jesus freaks and other assorted groups who hate Indians mostly vote Republican (like in the southern states). But Liberals operate like Congress in that the ethnic lobbies are pandered to and given vetoes over policy decisions (similar to Congress' caste arthimetic) in relation to the amount of money or votes they bring.

Christianity Today: S.C. Gov. Race Heats Up over religion

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 20 Jun 2010 00:38

Conservatives will be happy to have Indians, as long as they are rabidly Christian and go out of their way to publicly renounce their original faith.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 20 Jun 2010 02:55

You mean there is something wrong with being rabidly Christian and [to] go out of their way to publicly renounce their original faith.

You don't understand Christianity.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 Jun 2010 04:32

Only difference between conservatives and liberals is the means, not the end. Conservatives having overt contempt and disdain for any other ethnicity or religion except white Christian (they grudgingly accept, or have no choice, but to tolerate Jews, especially the Caucasian ones). Liberals on the other hand are more pompous with their holier than though attitude over conservatives, but they too are obsessed with the moral and cultural superiority of Caucasians and westerners. A quintessntial example of this later bunch include liberal intellectuals like Nicholas Kristoff or Tom Friedman of the NYT.

A liberal that I particularly like, and yet to find any major gripe with, is Rachel Maddow of Maddow of MSNBC, she is brainy, she is awesome.