India-US News and Discussion

[lsunil]

I agree with this. I had one experience at the age of 15 when the principal of my school a Kerala Christian mocked at me, Hindus and yoga asanas. He did this privately in his chamber only to me. That is still in my memory and that set me up for life to explore the world why people hate others.

Ha when i was like in 5-6 std, i and a malayali christian friend got punished by the teacher and were asked to stand outside the classroom. This was my first reality check on the nature of co-existence between the malayali hindus and chrisitans. I was standing just beside the door so i could hear what the teacher was saying. The teacher(a malayali hindu) then confirmed with some kid in the class if that boy outside was infact a christian. Then she says "ok, good". And then she proceeded to tell the students in the class about "christian evangelism" and ends by telling the students to not mingle with the christians too much.

I had an experience with the average suburban hindu's in bangalore and now i know why that state has a BJP govt. Those people are absolutely pissed by the activities of the church.

So we have eventually come around to bashing Indian Christians living in India?

Oh man, go away.
We talk about the chinese, the pakistani's, the indian mulsims, the indian christians and the indian hindu's and everyone that strikes as curious to us. This "do not talk about them or us" sounds like a fatwa attack. There are a lot of religions that have a bad and bloody history and cause of that, they do not want people to talk about their past and yada yada. There are no special one's here.

[D Roy]

I am sorry but some of the modern Indian intelligentsia is fixated by " this way of life" , "not a religion" , the "arabs named us" , "the british made this category" kind of nonsense .



I will tell you what is not religion - Abrahamic creeds divested of their mysticism .

The hard abrahmic practice of the modern era is nothing but the ritualization of ideology if devoid of mysticism.

On the contrary - Sanatan Dharma is very much a religion- an eternal religion so as to speak.

Just go to the Udaigiri caves near Vidisha, M.P and you will see that the Guptas had given the entire pantheon with the trinity at its core all the importance. there were no British then ( 450 CE) now , were there.

Yes Sanatan Dharma is not biblocentric but countless aspects of Dharmic expression are also codified and explained in not just the vedas and the two epics but very importantly in the Tantric Agamas which because of the influence of Victorian prudishness on India are much less talked about.

Everything from your temple to the sacred rites related to the fire are born out of Tantric and Vedic quests from the time when we had shamans and lived in caves.

What is called Hinduism is very much the sum total of the two real religions of the world - Tantra and Vedanta and the two are rather related to each other through the use of mantra, yantra and indeed Yoga.

So please,

India was never non-religious. I am sorry I don't agree with anybody saying the opposite no matter how cool it may be to do so otherwise.

And by the way Shivaji clearly made a "hindu Swarajya " where all paths to the divine were respected.

While being crowned Chattrapati he first wanted an "Indrabhishek". But due to the demise of his mother one more coronation ceremony was done based on the Bengal Tantric school.

Believe me the British did not "petition" him to call his state a "Hindu Swarajya".

Mysticism is the core of the Indian sub-text. So let's cut all this non-religious bullshit.

On the other hand India has very seldom allowed ideology to masquerade as religion as had happened in the middle east and the ex Roman empire.

So let's go easy on the categorization and understand that India has always been a land of both belief and indeed beyond belief.

[svenkat]

OT: In another forum,devoted to Advaita,it was claimed by someone that Sri Ramakrishna Parahamsa was rooted in tantric school,though Tantra has commonality with Vedanta.No one picked up the 'gauntlet' ,so to speak.

DRoyji,
Would you care to post in the Indian religion thread your views on Tantra/Vedanta.

[shiv]

On the contrary - Sanatan Dharma is very much a religion- an eternal religion so as to speak.

I have a problem with the word "religion". That word came after Sanatana Dharma already existed and was coined to describe practise of a particular kind. Clubbing sanatana dharma and other dharmas with other religions is an acceptance that they come under the same umbrella and insinuate that they are similar.

This is a self goal.

Trying to say "Yours is not religion. Mine is" is a second self goal. How about calling it a dharma?

[D Roy]

There is no self-goal. First or second.

Your reply is also engaged in the same categorization and post-facto construction debates that I do not like in the first place.

Dharma if of course Dharma.

But the closest thing that comes close to describing it in the european idiom is indeed religion and not "way of life".

Antything devoid of eternal mystic practices does not remain a religion. it becomes an ideology pure and simple.

It of course still remains a path and a way of life.

And interestingly the very fact that you choose to characterize some of my views as "self goals" makes it evident that you think I represent a some "well-defined" political side and you by extension represent one as well.

There is no point then in debating when the verdict has already been passed.

[shiv]

Your reply is also engaged in the same categorization and post-facto construction debates that I do not like in the first place.

Both religion and dharma came before you and me. All debate about them is post facto construction. Also OT here.

[lsunil]

I am sorry but some of the modern Indian intelligentsia is fixated by " this way of life" , "not a religion" , the "arabs named us" , "the british made this category" kind of nonsense.

It's hard to believe because that is what we were told as we were growing up. There was no name for "what we were" so they called it, a "religion". Ever care to think why customs and traditions differ beyond every 100kms in indian territory? The prime basis of "Religion" is "control". It is a concept that aims at bringing everyone on the planet under one fold so that there remains no contradictions in anything and hence the assumption that there will be peace "one day". So in this fairytale effort, the torch bearers of any particular religion go on a campaign of expansionism.

I do not want you to be sorry. I want you to explain to me why you call the thing that existed in india before the muslims arrived, "a religion".

I will tell you what is not religion - Abrahamic creeds divested of their mysticism.

I do not understand how this sentence settles our argument. What does it have to do with the absence of "mysticism"? Does the existence of "mysticism" make it a "religion"? Let's talk religion. Since we cannot agree on a definition on what "religion" is, lets talk about the purpose, the point of a "religion"? What do they want? One god! One doctrine! Allegiance! Why?

On the contrary - Sanatan Dharma is very much a religion- an eternal religion so as to speak.

It's a "religion" cause it has the feature of "mysticism"? A belief in "multiple gods" is "mysticism"? And a belief in "one" god is rational? The belief that you can bring the whole planet under one god is rational? The belief that 10 different people can be made to think and choose alike is rational? Thik hai sirji. You are a new man now. A man with a rational plan. Go and concur the world. That's rational.

[D Roy]

Both religion and dharma came before you and me. All debate about them is post facto construction. Also OT here.

That is so only if you do not believe in the everlasting soul.



Isunil,

Suffice it to say. I did not grow up "learning" or "hearing" what you think I might have.

And I would suggest you do travel though the motherland ( as I have) and you will find the verse to be very much one.

Mystic religion does not discount or account for anyone on the basis of "customs" anyway. That is what ritualized ideology does and that is precisely what I intended to convey.

[Pranav]

I do not understand how this sentence settles our argument. What does it have to do with the absence of "mysticism"? Does the existence of "mysticism" made it a "religion"? Let's talk religion. Since we cannot agree on a definition on what a religion is, lets talk about the purpose, the point of a "religion"? What do they want? One god! One doctrine! Allegiance! Why?

A good discussion ... perhaps it needs to be in an appropriate thread. Is there a thread for social engineering? Maybe the "non-western worldview" thread?

[lsunil]

Just go to the Udaigiri caves near Vidisha, M.P and you will see that the Guptas had given the entire pantheon with the trinity at its core all the importance. there were no British then ( 450 CE) now , were there.

You actually make my point, the idea of multiple gods and co-existence. There are a lot of people in india believing in a lot of different things. Some believe in jesus and allah but do not believe in other gods, a combination of different things. A lot of hindus visit churches and mosques because of the belief in multiple gods. You cannot write a paper on each and every thing cause that would take you forever. A simple explanation to this weird phenomenon is the idea of multiple gods which is just a strategy for co-existence.

Everything from your temple to the sacred rites related to the fire are born out of Tantric and Vedic quests from the time when we had shamans and lived in caves.
What is called Hinduism is very much the sum total of the two real religions of the world - Tantra and Vedanta and the two are rather related to each other through the use of mantra, yantra and indeed Yoga.

I do not understand what you are trying to say. Let me make this out. Are you trying to say that because these practices were tutored from a "book" is why it should be called a "religion"? So the new definition is "if it's from the book, it's a religion"?

India was never non-religious.

Mysticism and practices from the book. It doesn't make sense. It looks like an interpretation. Your explanation is still pending

I am sorry I don't agree with anybody saying the opposite no matter how cool it may be to do so otherwise.

Then explain it to us. Engage in an argument. Do not just say random things. If you think that it is a religion than put across some valid points. You cannot just say that "i do not believe becuase i do not believe". That is not an argument.

And by the way Shivaji clearly made a "hindu Swarajya " where all paths to the divine were respected.

I think he only meant co-existence. But im here to emphasise that the idea of one god is dangerous and it totally goes against the basics of indic. So if shivaji had christians and muslims under his command, that doesn't mean that dharma and religion can co-exist.

[negi]

Is this new Nukkad ? Just asking.

[ramana]

That article about Haley, Jindal and Amercian religious litmus test is very perceptive and holds a mirror on Amercia. It supports my contention that American has not really understood Enlightenment and is flailing because of that. America got the trappings of Modernity without discarding the cowl of Christian religion.

[surinder]

How are the TSP'ians taking the fall of McChrystal?

I remember when he was appointed, the deff and duumb folks were ranting against him ...

[ramana]

NPR interview of Comanche Nation and its contribution to the patterns of the founding of America. The short answer is due to theri fierce combative spirit it was only the East and West coast were firts settled and then gradually the middle was settled as tehy were gradually eased into reservations.

Comanche Nation

....
The story of Cynthia Ann and her son, Chief Quanah Parker, is told in S.C. Gwynne's book, Empire of the Summer Moon. ....

"If you go back through Comanche history, you see that they were the ones who stopped the Spanish from coming North," he explains. "Why did the French stop coming west from Louisiana? Comanches. ... Here was why the West Coast and the East Coast settled before the middle of the country. Here was why there was basically a 40-year wait before you could develop the state of Texas or before other Plain states could be developed."

....
"This is what Indians did to Indians and this just happened to be Indians meeting whites. But the automatic thing in battle is that all the adult males would be killed. That was automatic. That was one of the reasons that Indians fought to the death. The white men were astonished by it but they were assumed that they would be killed. Small children were killed. Very small children were killed. A lot of the children in say, the 3-10 range were often taken as captives. The women were often raped and often killed. And all of the people in those settlements back in those years knew what a Comanche raid was — knew what a Comanche raid meant. ... And it's an interesting kind of moral question as a historian about Plains Indians or American Indians in general. You have to come to terms with this — with torture, which they practiced all across the West — and these kind of grisly practices that scared white people to death."

....

"Their lives were built on two things, really — it was war and buffalo. All of the Plains Indians, once they got the horse from the Spanish, buffalo hunting became easier for them. It was their way of life. The buffalo hunting began as a simple market exercise. Hunters figured out they could get $3.50 a hide. Then they figured out they could ship these hides east on the new railroads. And they also figured out that buffalos were not smart enough to realize that if a buffalo next to the buffalo dropped, that there was something wrong. The buffalo had to see the source of the danger. So you'd have these people who would kill 3,500 buffalo in 28 days ... It occurred to the generals in the West, specifically [Philip] Sheridan and [William] Sherman, that by allowing the buffalos to be destroyed, they were creating the most efficient way to destroy Indians. And Sheridan had a famous quote. He said, 'You kill the buffalo, you destroy the Indian's commissary.' So it became political at the end. Yes, let's kill all the buffalos and then it's the end of Plains Indians because there is no Plains Indian without a buffalo."
...

The John Wayne movie "The Searchers' is based on the search for Cynthia Parker.

[Prem]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/06/ ... ml?tag=pop
Many Americans Expect Jesus' Return by 2050
New Survey Finds Americans Divided Over Whether They Believe Jesus Christ Will Return by Mid-Century

A new survey finds that Americans are divided over whether they believe Jesus Christ will return by the year 2050. Among respondents to the survey by the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press and Smithsonian Magazine, 41 percent said they expect Jesus' Second Coming in the next 40 years, while 46 percent said it probably or definitely won't happen. The poll suggests that 58 percent of white evangelicals believe Jesus will return by 2050 compared to only 32 percent of Catholics, and respondents with no college education were three times as likely as those with college degrees to expect Christ's Second Coming in the next 40 years. A majority of all respondents, meanwhile, say they expect there to be nuclear terrorism against the U.S. or another world war by 2050.

[SBajwa]

First Indian to the United States House of representatives (at D.C) was a Sikh from California.
He had to win elections two times (first one was nullified as he had only one year of citizenship) and fought hard to let Hindus be allowed to become US citizen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalip_Singh_Saund

Dalip Singh Saund

Remembering the US Congressman from India

FROM Chhajalwadi, near Amritsar, he went to the Congress of the USA and left a mark that still sets him apart from the many who tried to follow him. In the shadow of the changed situation in America following the September 11 attacks, the focus is again on someone who created history many years ago as persons of Indian origin in America celebrate the 45th swearing-in anniversary of Dalip Singh Saund this weekend.

Dalip Singh was the first Asian American to be elected to the US Congress, not once, but three times! No other American of Indian origin has managed this feat even once so far. But it was a long haul for the son of Natha Singh. Born on September 20, 1899, in Chhajalwadi village near Amritsar, Dalip Singh lived in a joint family, the elders of which were engaged in farming as well as construction business. One of his three brothers was Karnail Singh, who retired as Chairman, Railway Board, in 1962 and whose engineering skills were legendary. Unlike his elder brother, Karnail Singh did not use the family name.

“Dalip Singh was a serious-minded person and interested in public work from an early age. He prevailed upon his parents and made them start a school in the village,” says Anup Singh, Karnail Singh’s son and Saund’s nephew.

Saund studied in a school in Baba Bakala, near Amritsar, and at the Prince of Wales College, Jammu, where he earned his BA degree in mathematics from Panjab University in 1919.

more at ...
http://www.roopinder.com/blog/profile-a ... ingh-saund


That there had been resentment about him is obvious from the following anecdote narrated by Saund about his 1952 campaign for the same post:

“One day, just three days before the election, a prominent citizen who was opposing me bitterly saw me one morning in the town restaurant and said in a loud voice: “Doc, tell us, if you’re elected, will you furnish the turbans or will we have to buy them ourselves in order to come to your court?”

“My friend,” I answered, “you know me for a tolerant man. I don’t care what a man has on top of his head. All I’m interested in is what he’s got inside of it.”

“All the customers had a good laugh at that and the story became the talk of the town during the next few days.”

He was elected judge of the same court in 1952 and served until his resignation on January 1, 1957. He is credited with cleaning up the red light district of Westmoreland by awarding stiff fines and jail sentences.


---
“As we now sometimes face discrimination and harassment — often from mistaken identity — it is good to remember how people like Dalip Singh Saund faced heavier odds and prevailed. When we bemoan the glass ceiling that we encounter sometimes, it would be good for us to recall a young PhD in mathematics toiling on a farm for that was all he was allowed to do. Dalip Singh Saund opened many doors to us. In our success in this multicultural land, we stand on the shoulders of giants like him,” says Dr I. J. Singh.

[Gus]

Yes, let's kill all the buffalos and then it's the end of Plains Indians because there is no Plains Indian without a buffalo.

They very nearly drove the bison to extinction. Slicing the population from 30 million to just over 1,000 by 1890. Many of these mass hunts were organized by the army. They would just stop the train when they spot a herd and spray bullets and kill literally thousands in hours.

the recovery is a miracle considering this..

http://scienceray.com/biology/zoology/t ... can-bison/

The demise of the bison seemed inevitable, until a man named James Philips, from South Dakota. He bought 4 males and a single female, from a man named Dug Carlin, who obtained them from the Last Big Buffalo Hunt. At this point in time, there were only 7 pure Bison left in North America. However, 30 years later, when Scotty died at the age of 53, the Bison population was at a steadily-increasing number of 1,000-1,200 over North America. This greatly boosted the amount of Bison, and saved them from extinction.

[cbelwal]

I do not like the idea of changing religions to impress people. However, remember these two are politicians and they have to do what the majority wants. And the majority is composed of conservative Christians who do not like non-Whites and non-Christians.

By a public demonstration of denouncing their religion, DJ and NH have gamed the system and conned the voting public. This is fine by me as other politicians do the same. Politics is all about perception, what BJ and NH say and do, does not necessarily mean they beleive in it. It is unfair to expect Indians to play by the rules, when their competition never does.

^^ The above article nails it. It's not the mere fact that BJ or NH decided to take up Christianity that galls... it's their public, deliberate, repeated, emphatic distancing of themselves from any connection to Dharmic roots. Dharma has become, quite literally, Untouchable to these two.

[Karan Dixit]

On the contrary - Sanatan Dharma is very much a religion- an eternal religion so as to speak.

I have a problem with the word "religion". That word came after Sanatana Dharma already existed and was coined to describe practise of a particular kind. Clubbing sanatana dharma and other dharmas with other religions is an acceptance that they come under the same umbrella and insinuate that they are similar.

This is a self goal.

Trying to say "Yours is not religion. Mine is" is a second self goal. How about calling it a dharma?

Excellent point!

Not too long ago I had a brief conversation with an African American who happened to be a Muslim. Our conversation started with both noting the rise of hatred among Christians towards all sorts people which included Mexicans, Blacks, Muslims, etc.

Later on our conversation started to focus around Boudh Dharma and Islam. In my attempt to define Dharma for him, I explained to him that Dharma was not a religion. Which, made him very happy. I guess he wanted to say that in the very beginning of our conversation but his politeness kept him at bay. But before his glee could last long, I told him it was a good thing that Dharma was not a religion. Now he was truly baffled.

Here are my bullet points that I use to cite the difference between Dharma and religion:

1.Dharma focuses on actual good deed of a person. Religion focuses on the dogma.
2.Dharma believes in live and let live. Religion believes in convert or die.
3.Dharma is kind to all living beings. Religion promotes exploitation of other living being to please man.

The item #1 is the most important item in the list. Because I have met countless followers of religion (both Christianism and Islam) who think they are good people simply because they go to church everyday. The fact that they engage in racism and bigotry does not seem to bother them a bit.

[Karan Dixit]

MUMBAI (AFP) – India's biggest company Reliance Industries said Thursday it would invest 1.3 billion dollars in a US shale gas field, the second such move by the conglomerate this year.

Reliance is to buy a 45-percent interest in the Eagle Ford gas field in the state of Texas, owned by US-based Pioneer Natural Resources.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100624/wl ... 0624114321

(I hope Reliance will buy out BP in US.)

[abhishek_sharma]

Indians, Envious of U.S. Oil Spill Response, Seethe Over Bhopal

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/25/world ... hopal.html

[abhishek_sharma]

Six degrees of wrong

http://rothkopf.foreignpolicy.com/posts ... s_of_wrong

[Ambar]

Indians, Envious of U.S. Oil Spill Response, Seethe Over Bhopal

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/25/world ... hopal.html

Thanks,Abhishek. Ironically,i was thinking about the Bhopal disaster back in Apr/May when this whole BP oil spill hullabaloo reached a feverish pitch on TV/newspapers. I guess just like the Diego Garcia de-population when the Brits and Americans thought it would be better to exile all the natives from their homes instead of disturbing tortoises in Aldabra, life of someone in a poor nation is probably not even worth the same as flora and fauna in rich nations.

Having said the above,GoI and the state of MP are equally responsible for their criminal apathy towards the Bhopal gas tragedy victims. 25 years on,we still haven't managed to clean the site of what is now the biggest industrial tragedy in the history of mankind! I was watching a short documentary on Bhopal tragedy back in December, when BBC tested drinking water samples collected from the surrounding areas of the gas tragedy,they found carcinogenic chemical contents in it exceeding the WHO limits by over 1000 times!

Forget about being a industrial/military superpower,63 years on,we are nowhere close to providing basic amenities to our own people.The administration in particular and masses in general care little for the sufferings of others if it does not impact them directly. And before we talk about extraditing Warren Anderson (which wont happen - ever!),how about punishing those babus and heads of govt.agencies who allowed a chemical plant using methyl isocynate to operate in the middle of densely populated urban area? 2 years of prison for 8 Union Carbide employees for killing over 50,000 people after 25 years from the date of crime? Justice delayed is justice denied.I am sick down to my stomach when i think about our indifference towards human sufferings in our country...Unless we embed the 'fighting for our rights' genes into our DNA,we are not headed towards global dominance anytime soon!

[D Roy]

I have no desire to engage in a slugfest on the subject of India's alleged "non-religious" past.

Nevertheless my final words on the matter for posterity:

The true pillars of Indian religosity have always been the holy men and women that have walked this land and their enquiries which as I have pointed out earlier have also been codified and applied ( just to show that even that dimension of religion- if considered - is very much there).

These men were the purveyors of mysticism and of Dharma. They have been called by many names and some of the greatest have graced us till as late as the first half of the twentieth century.

In our villages the hymns of otherwise illiterate bhakti saints very much echo through the past thousand years and theistic worship with the aim of attaining the divine has been alive and kicking for many more.

If there is any land that that has ever been religious- it is this.

The land whose history is steeped in mysticism and divine worship can never ever be called non-religious.

Non-ideological, maybe. But never non-religious.

[lsunil]

The true pillars of Indian religosity have always been the holy men and women that have walked this land and their enquiries which as I have pointed out earlier have also been codified and applied ( just to show that even that dimension of religion- if considered - is very much there).

Nope. Indics believe in the philosophy that "you might be right". What do i have to loose by praying to "jesus" or "allah"? There might be a possibility that one of them exists somewhere in deep space so might as well pray to all of them.

A lot of saints have said a lot of things. It is only philosophy. But it is not religion. Indic's accept the possibility of other gods. This trait is part of dharma as one of the laws of co-existence. That is why abrahamics are tolerated. But if an abrahamic wants to believe in one god and at the same time, claims to be indic or even dharmic then he is out of his mind. A severe case of identity crisis. That is why they were waiving the indian flag in the beginning of that benny hinn concert in bangalore.

These men were the purveyors of mysticism and of Dharma. They have been called by many names and some of the greatest have graced us till as late as the first half of the twentieth century.

Again with this mysticism. The entire concept of "god" itself is mysticism. Calling abrahamics a "*ritualised ideology* devoid of mysticism" is just an adjective. They still believe in the concept of god then how is it *devoid of mysticism*? Saying that "i have travelled throughout india" does not add anything to the argument. Infact, it is simply a nonsensical statement.

It is crazy how irrational things could survive for so many centuries. But it did. I do not understand why you limit yourself by parking beside the river.

In our villages the hymns of otherwise illiterate bhakti saints very much echo through the past thousand years and theistic worship with the aim of attaining the divine has been alive and kicking for many more.

Agreed it is irrational. But what about the "peace on earth" prayers on 31st dec of each year? The sunday masses? Is that not mysticism? I find your your outlook on things very interesting. I might even assume some things.

If there is any land that that has ever been religious- it is this.

I cannot argue with a person who has already made up his mind.

The land whose history is steeped in mysticism and divine worship can never ever be called non-religious. Non-ideological, maybe. But never non-religious.

You can believe whatever want. I welcome your opinions.

[Kanson]

I have no desire to engage in a slugfest on the subject of India's alleged "non-religious" past.

Nevertheless my final words on the matter for posterity:

The true pillars of Indian religosity have always been the holy men and women that have walked this land and their enquiries which as I have pointed out earlier have also been codified and applied ( just to show that even that dimension of religion- if considered - is very much there).

These men were the purveyors of mysticism and of Dharma. They have been called by many names and some of the greatest have graced us till as late as the first half of the twentieth century.

In our villages the hymns of otherwise illiterate bhakti saints very much echo through the past thousand years and theistic worship with the aim of attaining the divine has been alive and kicking for many more.

If there is any land that that has ever been religious- it is this.

The land whose history is steeped in mysticism and divine worship can never ever be called non-religious.

Non-ideological, maybe. But never non-religious.

Yes, these are the thoughts expressed by personalities like none other than Vivekananda. And i have heard other great personalities saying something like, western land may breeds science, but if there is one land that breeds spirituality then that is India and this land is mother of all religion.

[Kanson]

Here are my bullet points that I use to cite the difference between Dharma and religion:

1.Dharma focuses on actual good deed of a person. Religion focuses on the dogma.
2.Dharma believes in live and let live. Religion believes in convert or die.
3.Dharma is kind to all living beings. Religion promotes exploitation of other living being to please man.

The item #1 is the most important item in the list. Because I have met countless followers of religion (both Christianism and Islam) who think they are good people simply because they go to church everyday. The fact that they engage in racism and bigotry does not seem to bother them a bit.

Now you are exactly into semantics...How you come to know that Religion is and mean so and so. You taken the notion of religion from what you observed from Christinaity and Islam. Do you think there is no religion before ? We been crystallised to think a religion as this. You can call it whatever name you want. Thats all the difference between Dharma and Religion...Differentiating may be good for academic thesis.

[Kanson]

>>> The hard abrahmic practice of the modern era is nothing but the ritualization of ideology if devoid of mysticism.

To understand the statement one must understand and define what is mysticism.

[lsunil]

To understand the statement one must understand and define what is mysticism.

I was talking all this while without the use of adjectives. Why the semantic warfare?

You can call it whatever name you want. Thats all the difference between Dharma and Religion

Call dharma as simply "dharma". It is a non-religious state. The philosophy is simple, "to accept the possibility" that Mr. A's claim is true. To participate with him. That is just for co-existence.

Matter of fact, if a person considers to believe in a different god or more than 1 god, it says that he is in a clear doubt. That could very well mean that he is an atheist. No? I think indics is a path towards atheism. How many atheists are on this board anyway? Do you come as an atheist first or a hindu? Eh?

[SwamyG]

The item #1 is the most important item in the list. Because I have met countless followers of religion (both Christianism and Islam) who think they are good people simply because they go to church everyday. The fact that they engage in racism and bigotry does not seem to bother them a bit.

You could say the same thing about several millions of Hindus as well, who just do the rituals handed down by their ancestors and visiting temples itiyadi but engaging in discriminatory practices. If we consider the religions and Dharma as two separate systems; then we could argue the pros and cons of the two kinds of systems; but in no way could we assume that the users of the system automatically adhere to the paradigm of the system. In other words, Christians or Hindus do not automatically become good or bad because of their religion or dharma. I know it is obvious, yet putting it on the table.

[Kanson]

To understand the statement one must understand and define what is mysticism.

I was talking all this while without the use of adjectives. Why the semantic warfare?

Before making any argument and if the argument has to bear results, it is better to define what you mean by these words..It helps avoid talking in circles.

You can call it whatever name you want. Thats all the difference between Dharma and Religion

Call dharma as simply "dharma". It is a non-religious state. The philosophy is simple, "to accept the possibility" that Mr. A's claim is true. To participate with him. That is just for co-existence.

What you are trying to do is shoe-horn what a religion is....I'm saying it as dharma is religion and religion is dharma. This you wont understand as we are trained to see religion through the glasses of Christianity and Islam. Have you know what Bhuddhism is ? Is it a religion or Dharma...If you practised Bhuddhism, you will come to understand there is no difference between Dharma and Religion and of course if you consider Bhuddhism as a religion.

Matter of fact, if a person considers to believe in a different god or more than 1 god, it says that he is in a clear doubt. That could very well mean that he is an atheist. No? I think indics is a path towards atheism. How many atheists are on this board anyway? Do you come as an atheist first or a hindu? Eh?

What you mean by "it". I can see very clearly by talking abt atheist, you are making this disccussion from the gates of Christanity/Islam.

[svinayak]

This discussion needs other thread and not this thread

[lsunil]

Before making any argument and if the argument has to bear results, it is better to define what you mean by these words..It helps avoid talking in circles.

Semantic warfare!! The use of adjectives like "mysticism" and "ritualized ideology". It's better we do not use them.

What you are trying to do is shoe-horn what a religion is....I'm saying it as dharma is religion and religion is dharma.

Absolutely wrong. Dharma and religion are exact opposites. There was no english word for dharma so they called or equated it with "religion". Dharma is a philosophy of "live and let live". A sharing of thoughts and ideas and the belief in possibilities. Religion is closed and final.

This you wont understand as we are trained to see religion through the glasses of Christianity and Islam.

Religion is not an indian word. The word was coined in presence of or in an abrahamic vibe. The sanskrit word "dharma" does not mean "religion". The westerners still do not understand what dharma is. They still equate it with religion. We were told what they thought. We read it in our books and in our westernised syllabus. We've been reading it for centuries. We've been addressing ourselves as "hindu" in the thousands of municipality papers, in every govt papers, the educational forms etc etc. Our parents did it. We've taken that habit.

Have you know what Bhuddhism is ? Is it a religion or Dharma..

Hinduism and sikhism are philosophies framed by indics. I have said to you that religion is closed. If dharma is a religion they how do you think these hindus went and formulated there own philosophies?

What you mean by "it".

The ridiculous indic idea of multiple gods is actually a clever idea to take followers towards atheism. That is all i said. There were no hidden messages. If you look at this forum itself, most of the members are atheists. Don't you see the obviousness?

PS: Mods, move all these posts and the related to their rightful threads and inform this thread.

[Rudradev]

The land whose history is steeped in mysticism and divine worship can never ever be called non-religious.

Non-ideological, maybe. But never non-religious.

I agree 100%.

We like to say "oh Sanatan Dharm is not a religion" because we want to differentiate it from the atrocious nonsense perpetrated in the name of Abrahamic "religons."

However, in effect that opens up our masses to the depradations of Evanjehadis who say "come now, isn't it time you benighted people got a real religion like civilized human beings need? Forget all that wishy-washy many-god philosophy and embrace Jesus" etc.

In fact, Sanatan Dharm is not only a religion, it is the only religion. The Abrahamic dogmas, by contrast, are just that... dogmas.

[ramana]

I think you can do the same. Start a new thread and x-post the relevant threads.

The mods are not a bucket brigade.

[surinder]

interesting thing about Saund is that most people if asked who was the first congressman from Asia would instinctively say a "Chinese", for this group has been in the US in far larger numbers and much earlier than Indians.

Sad that he would push open a door, only for BJ & NH to crawl instead of walk proudly through it.

[CRamS]

Indians, Envious of U.S. Oil Spill Response, Seethe Over Bhopal

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/25/world ... hopal.html

This last bit is telling

Indeed, his departure, along with what many see as the meager price the company paid in compensation to the victims, became symbols of India’s impotence, confirmation that it was a soft state unable to protect its citizens.

If any additional confirmation is nedded, India's humiliation on 26/11 and thereafter has pretty much sealed any pretense of India is an emerging power. I mean India's softness and weak position in the world is all the more evident and galling as we see TSP negotiating a nuke deal, US conferring billions, asking India to appease TSP; with Mumbai not even a faint memory, and India unable to make it case.

The only silver lining that I see if at all is for India to forget about this great power garbage, introspect, and make something of itself. Perhahs take a leaf out of the new PM of Trinidad, Kamla Persad-Bissessar.

[surinder]

^^^
Any self-respecting Indian would find the response to the fish dying in GoM and people in Bhopal would find it galling. But when you elect officials based on caste and other petty considerations, and indulge in massive ghooskhori, what else can you expect. We reap what we sow.

[ramana]

The real travesty is that the GOI settled for a pittance and then took for ever to payout the compensation that was already paid by UC. To add insult to injury the charges were watered down and token punishments awarded after limiting the case to local Indians only.

If India is a soft state its because the politicial class wants it to be to feather their own interests. Even now they are paying the enhanced compensation form Indian tax payer money(not from UC or Dow coffers) and want to "extradiate" former head of UC which is a pipe dream due to many reasons. Again they are misleading the public by pretendind o take action.

[sum]

Indeed, his departure, along with what many see as the meager price the company paid in compensation to the victims, became symbols of India’s impotence, confirmation that it was a soft state unable to protect its citizens

Sadly, the only word that can be changed in the above sentence is the "it was a soft state" to "it is a soft state"