Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby CRamS » 05 Mar 2010 12:22

I remember more than a year back, every TSP RAPE from Jihadi Sethi to Madam issued threats that come what may, as US squeezes TSP's b@lls, TSP will make sure that TSP's neighbors in the region (read India & Afganisthan) will not be on the victory podium while TSP burns. Boy have they made good on their threats. Exploiting India's abject impotence, India has now become part of the Af-Pak strategy. It was bad enough when US launched this bogus war on terror, that terror against India was not part of the equation, but now India has to bend down on its knees and beg TSP and US to spare it from becoming cannon fodder in the end game. What a tragedy.
Last edited by CRamS on 05 Mar 2010 12:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby kenop » 05 Mar 2010 12:28

Geelanahi unlikely to meet MMS at Nuclear Summit in Washington
Islamabad Pakistan Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani is unlikely to meet his Indian counterpart Dr. Manmohan Singh in Washington, where they are scheduled to attend the Nuclear Security Summit in Washington on April 12 and 13.

Pakistan Foreign Office (FO) spokesman Abdul Basit said he is unaware of any such meeting between the two leaders on the sidelines of the upcoming summit.

“I don’t know yet,” The Daily Times quoted Basit, as saying.

The focus of the conference hosted by President Barack Obama is on securing vulnerable nuclear materials and preventing acts of “nuclear terrorism”.

The White House has invited 44 countries to the summit, though the list of delegates has not been finalised yet.

“The purpose of the summit is to discuss steps we can collectively take to secure vulnerable nuclear materials and prevent acts of nuclear terrorism,” White House spokesman Robert Gibbs had said earlier.
Last edited by kenop on 05 Mar 2010 12:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby SSridhar » 05 Mar 2010 12:33

Malayappan wrote:State within a state? Ayesha Siddqa points out to Kayani's increasing power...


Malayappan, in this post,I had commented on the same but in a different context, the context of the then upcoming Foreign Secretary level talks.

The DG-ISI will get his extension from Kayani next week and soon thereafter, Kayani himself will get his extension. It has all been worked out. The quid pro quo for Gilani is that the PA will let them complete their term. The fact that Kayani does all these things with no consultation with his Commander-in-Chief, Pres. Zardari or even the Defence Secretary, and that Kayani simply informs the Prime Minister after the decisions are taken by him, go to prove that the PA continues to remain outside the control of the democratic government.

What does it matter for India ? As the Afghan situation reaches the most critical stage, the PA has edged out the political leaders and calls the shot with the connivance of the Americans. That will help the PA directly seek its dominance over Afghanistan. Why does Afghanistan matter to the PA so much ? Because, the PA has not given up 'thousand cuts' and 'strategic depth' against India. Ultimately, it all boils down to India and India alone. The PA had been rattled by conciliatory statements from Zardari last year and the efforts to rein in the ISI as well. One of the messages conveyed by 26/11 was that the PA was in control. The PA has cleverly used the political face to extract a promise from India to de-link talks from terror. With these developments internally within the PA and the denouement in Afghanistan, India should brace itself for more attacks.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby amit » 05 Mar 2010 14:01

It seems that Shri Holbrooke ji has learned how to do some downhill skiing from his pals in Pakistan.

Holbrooke regrets comments on Kabul attack

Holbrooke said: "I did not say Indians were not targeted, but that initially it looked like the target was not an official Indian facility. Early reports on events like this are often unreliable, and I try not to jump to conclusions."

"We all know that Indian citizens have and continue to be targeted by terrorists, including inside Afghanistan," he added.


Just to clear the air, this is what Holbrooke ji said:

"First of all, in regard to this attack, I don't accept the fact that this was an attack on an Indian facility like the embassy."

"There were foreigners, non-Indian foreigners hurt. It was a soft target. And let's not jump to conclusions," he told reporters when asked how Indians in Afghanistan could feel safe in the wake of last week's attack.

"I understand why everyone in Pakistan and everyone in India always focuses on the other. But please, let's not draw a conclusion which - for which there's no proof," he said.


Splitting hairs are we Sirji?

I wonder what prompted this chaddis-in-a-twist reaction from the great Ambassador? First he says there's no proof of Indian being the target of terror and then "Indian citizens have and continue to be targeted by terrorists"?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby vishal » 05 Mar 2010 14:34

1 old man, looking at a doughnut, LUCKY NUMBER 10!

HANGU: Ten people were killed and several injured when a suicide bomber attack a caravan of passenger buses in Tehsil Tal of district Hangu near petrol pump, sources told Geo News.

Commissioner Kohat Khalid Khan said that the blast occurred in a border area. The bomber was on foot, he added.

The caravan was going to Kurram Agency. Three vehicles were damaged. Dead bodies and injured were being shifted to CMH Tal and other hospitals.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby Neela » 05 Mar 2010 14:48

All,

can we simply move past these annoying posts, claims and counter-claims.
I am sure most of us have been on forums long enough to simply ignore posts that can be seen as points of thread-derailment.

Please see the brighter side in the thread :twisted: : 10 people killed!.
Think about the soosai fellow who took all pains to meet his 72 and helped others in the process.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby amit » 05 Mar 2010 15:02

Neela wrote:Please see the brighter side in the thread :twisted: : 10 people killed!.
Think about the soosai fellow who took all pains to meet his 72 and helped others in the process.



Neela,

The soosai is by now enjoying his 72 raisins, but his victims? Surely they can't be good followers of the Religion of Peace can they be? I'm sure they'll be rotting in some very bad place. :)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby Philip » 05 Mar 2010 15:07

British boy's kidnap could be 'sort of inside job'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 16656.html

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby arun » 05 Mar 2010 15:15

vishal wrote:1 old man, looking at a doughnut, LUCKY NUMBER 10!

HANGU: Ten people were killed and several injured when a suicide bomber attack a caravan of passenger buses in Tehsil Tal of district Hangu near petrol pump, sources told Geo News.

Commissioner Kohat Khalid Khan said that the blast occurred in a border area. The bomber was on foot, he added.

The caravan was going to Kurram Agency. Three vehicles were damaged. Dead bodies and injured were being shifted to CMH Tal and other hospitals.


So yet another Muslim Sabbath of Friday arrives in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and is marked by yet another demonstration of the IED Mubarak variant of the IEDology of Pakistan.

Just as being in and around bars at closing time is best avoided in many parts of the world, avoiding Fridays in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is a good idea.

What the article in The News does not disclose is that the minority Muslim Shia sect were at the receiving end of the suicide attack at Hangu.

See this article by AP via Forbes:

Police: 5 killed in NW Pakistan suicide attack

For a country that was supposedly formed as a safe haven for the Muslims of the Indian Sub-continent, security from attack for a minority Muslim sect like the Shia from the majority Sunni Muslim sect, is certainly not a given.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby Airavat » 05 Mar 2010 15:25

Taliban have zero chance to rule Afghanistan

Most of us look at Pakistan’s Afghan policy in the context of its enmity with India. This phenomenon is being called the policy of ‘strategic depth’, which means that Pakistan needs Afghanistan as a backyard under its thumb where its forces can retreat in case of a war with India. But too much emphasis on ‘strategic depth’ for understanding Pakistan’s policy looks misplaced.

More important than strategic depth is Pakistan’s quest for controlling Afghanistan and its apprehensions regarding the Durand Line. The line, drawn in 1893 by the British imperial power in India, which divided Pashtuns into two groups — the ones living in Pakistan today and the ones living in Afghanistan — has never been ratified by any Afghan Loya Jirga or parliament. The Afghans still lay claim to the Pashtun territories between the Khyber Pass and the river Indus.

The existence of Afghanistan sans the Taliban is a big possibility on the ground. How far, and when, Pakistan realises this truth will largely determine its own future.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby Hari Seldon » 05 Mar 2010 16:10

Praveen Swami's tweets (TIFWIW alert!):
http://twitter.com/praveenswami
Hanif Patel's arrest in London should focus attention on the costs of communal conflict at home; my article | http://bit.ly/dCTDaD

Another senior Taliban leader reported held by ISI | http://bit.ly/aOoeqQ

Holbrooke unsure if Pakistan against Afghan Taliban | http://bit.ly/9IK0HI

Ramaswamy Iyer on Pakistan's efforts to manufacture a water dispute with India | http://is.gd/9ACFE

Pakistan is holding on tight to its Taliban | http://bit.ly/bAEyyv

Inside Abdul Khwaja’s failed war against India; my article | http://bit.ly/9zrUKp

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby SSridhar » 05 Mar 2010 16:50

Dialogue is the only way forward with Pakistan: Man Mohan Singh

I hope the above statement was made for consumption in certain quarters and *is not* the official policy of the GoI. Dialogue is certainly not the only way forward with Pakistan. It may be just one of the ways. A dialogue can be had only at an appropriate time and at all the other times we must follow various other instruments of foreign policy vis-a-vis Pakistan.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby SSridhar » 05 Mar 2010 16:57


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby skaranam » 05 Mar 2010 16:59

Raja Ram wrote:
By the same "simplified logic" sub routine we can also have:

The PM and GOI administration of day knows best
All those who critique this are frustrated hindutva fundamentalists who are angry that their favorite party is not in power
People who critique GOI's subserving national interests to larger geo political goals of a superpower are not realists and/or not smart enough as distinguished PM and UPA supremo

:mrgreen: :roll:


We all know there is more than one way to skin the cat. The problem with India wrt to Pak is we do not even know if the skinning is going on. To top it there is confusion as to what the cat mean? Is it destroying Pakistan or stable Pakistan? GoI has the responsibility to present a clear strategy. We always seem to blow hot and cold.

The latest U turn by the GoI is a good example. The S-e-S took every one by surprise. I am sure it would have been debated with in the PMO, but again not taking the nation into confidence was wrong. The "aman ki niraasha" could not have happened without the wink from GoI (i do not have any proof about it). Some say we will continue this rudder less drama until the current crop of octogenarian, septuagenarian and to some extent sexagenarian retire.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby satya » 05 Mar 2010 17:18

Yat mat tat path . Empire/nation of billion + people can never ever be taken into confidence for even taking a leak by our US planted PM :rotfl: . Problem is majority here feels anything GoI do or did = anti indian interests shows complete lack of faith in our own leaders/ abilities so much unless some 2 taka gora comes here or Unkil Su says otherwise . For quite some time every discussion specially on this TSPian thread has revolved around how much of India been sold &at what speed . Its a sad day for BRF , gone r days when very members of this forum predicted a surge in terror incidents & Kiyani's moves when Mushy left .Now its he said this i will say so , too much rona dhona of DDM serials have come here.

As for solutions of showing F-16 the door or to Hoolbrooke really does it solve the mess , will it ensure safety for Indians in Afghanistan or complete air dominance for IAF within minutes/hour of start of war? Policies are not made merely to satisfy the ego , u do that u pay a very heavy price .

My humble request is let's not be the blind guys with elephant in room & trying to figure it out what it really is . What Shivjee says is closest one gets to truth/ reality of present day scenario and not many people like it but this is how things are. A couple of days ago Sh. K S Bajpai Chairman , NSAB was on show with Karan Thapar & he was not living in any la la land of fantasies . There r things tht never will be said openly in public nor there's any such thing as instant karma .

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby SSridhar » 05 Mar 2010 17:38

From today's edit of DT
Whether Pakistan has any role in targeting Indians in Afghanistan is a separate matter, but it cannot be denied that the military establishment is even more India-obsessed now than in the past.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby Chandragupta » 05 Mar 2010 17:57

If one assumes that GoI can do diddly-squat wrt Pakistan as long as US is involved & that US protects Paquis & allows Indian targets to be hit, then it can also be assumed that the US can also play a double game allowing India to take out Paki targets & Guborment of Pakistan can also simply do diddly-squat about that. Why is there nothing like that? Or if it was (TTP), why has it come to a halt? Has India got nothing that interests Unkil or is Unkil so stupid to antagonize India like this, given that we are the upcoming superpower & what naat?!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby shiv » 05 Mar 2010 18:02

skaranam wrote:We all know there is more than one way to skin the cat. The problem with India wrt to Pak is we do not even know if the skinning is going on. To top it there is confusion as to what the cat mean? Is it destroying Pakistan or stable Pakistan? GoI has the responsibility to present a clear strategy. We always seem to blow hot and cold.


Whatever the GoI thinks I believe we too, on this forum have differences of opinion on what is good for India and what is "good" for Pakistan.

I am guilty of having assumed (in my learning phase about Pakistan) that what is good for India is likely to be what is good for Pakistan. That is too naive a view. India needs poverty reduction and improvements in human development, education, maternal mortality etc. I was wrong to assume that Pakistan, which is lagging in these parameters also needs the same. That is complete rubbish. The one thing that Pakistan is doing right is screwing up on literacy and population growth. If Pakistan's human development parameters are getting worse - or at least lagging - that is a good thing for India. If Pakistanis develop - then its bad news for India.

So in fact the GoI is perfectly right in not being the least bit concerned about how Pakistan conducts its human development policy. People to people exchanges are in a way good because of the way the society cookie divided itself up in India and Pakistan. When people of our social class visit Pakistan we are blown away by the opulence and beauty of the RAPE lifestyle - their motorways etc and come back suitably impressed. But the RAPE (and we) are both minorities. 90% of Indian and Pakistanis are "fkced up class" and over the decades India has managed to improve the life of a significant percentage of the fkced up class. And it is this class of Indian and Pakistani who visit and see each other and notice the differences. They do not comment on the glass walled airports and smooth motoraways because they do not use them. It is bijli sadak paani issues that dominate and India is scoring over Pakis there. And "people to people" exchanges is dangerous to Pakistan in a different way from which it is dangerous to India. it is dangerous to India because Abdul Pakis have a habit of vanishing in India. But it is giving Pakis a taste of what freedom and development of mango man can do.

I am not saying that this is the only way forward - but when we are on the topic of ways to skin a cat - there are pros and cons to every action. With regard to punishing Pakistan - I think the RAPE and army need to be punished. But RAPE and army are hidden behind a wall of Abduls who will die. No problem if Abduls die, but the purpose is not served of RAPE don't die. After every war the RAPE and army have escaped lightly as Abduls have died. Many lament on here that terrorism does not hit the Indian elite and that mango man sacrifices his life. But the reason Indian elite escape is similar to the reason RAPE escape punishment. Terrorism does not touch elite. India action does not touch RAPE/Army. Each group has cocooned itself safely in a mass of mango men who form most of teh population.

So one route forward would be for Indian elite to do well for Indian mango in terms of development and let Pakis go to hell. And RAPEs are doing pretty well there.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby archan » 05 Mar 2010 19:04

AjayKK, I have responded to you viewtopic.php?p=834421#p834421
Others, please feel free to make your opinions about me, I am not going to clarify, or change. If you have a problem with my moderation, please use the feedback forum, not here. I see the last page is again filled by OT posts and another cleanup is in order. :roll: Ha, if that was a flame bait, I see our dheshbhakts did take it with gutso.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby Masaru » 05 Mar 2010 21:31

Coming home to roost

Relevant excerpts
Meanwhile, an old Pakistani warrior ‘Colonel Imam’ (real name Amir Sultan Tarar) was in confident mood as he related his Afghan experiences to Anthony Loyd of The Times. Our hero knew the elusive Mullah Omar very well, having worked with him in his Taliban redoubt during his years of active service. Colonel Imam learned his skills in America. “I have the Green Beret, he said, recalling the special forces qualification gained in Fort Bragg in 1973. “But I think this Taliban beret is better.”

Loyd again: “As a top agent for the Pakistan intelligence agency, the ISI, Colonel Imam recruited, trained and armed almost every one of Afghanistan’s prominent insurgents and warlords during the 1980s....He escorted Charlie Wilson, the Texan Congressman who funnelled millions of dollars to the muhjahideen, into Afghanistan three times....The subsequent war has served as an epitaph for the final vestiges of the Colonel’s relationship with America.”

When Mr Wilson died in early February Colonel Imam avoided his funeral. “The man was not a friend,” he said. “He used us. All Americans used us. They hijacked our problems and left us to the dogs.” It was back to jihad, the only shown in town.


Similar to the views articulated here a while back
And so to next door Pakistan, Shahrukh Khan’s “great neighbour,” no less. Methinks the wisest Indian course would be not ‘benign neglect’ but ‘active neglect’ towards Islamabad. Key to the difference between the two is the concept of ‘active defence’ employed usually by victorious armies. A call to arms against Pakistan is unnecessary, but ‘active neglect’ applied intelligently and purposefully can impose a crippling price on its rulers for their continuing war of terror against India.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby Abhijit » 05 Mar 2010 21:52

About 2000+ years ago, the Hebrews were driven out of their holy land of Jerusalem. This is referred to as the exodus and the diaspora (Jewish people spread all over th world due to the exodus) still remember the exodus. Every year on the day of Passover every normal Jew in the world reaffirms his/her desire to take back what was lost 2000 years ago. 'Next year in Jerusalem' is the immortal prayer that symbolizes this desire. (leave aside the part that Jerusalem is partly under Jewish control for the past few decades).
What are we, as Indians, doing to remember the following?

- Countless Indians killed in the largest orgy of violence in 1947
- Thousands of Indians, servicemen or civilians, killed by pakistan through state-sponsored terrorism
- That america is at least partly responsible for the deaths of these thousands of Indians
- That the entire pakistan has been indoctrinated to hate and kill Hindus, Sikhs and any non-Muslim

This is what we are doing:

- launching 'aman ki asha' suckering millions of Indians into believing that the desire for peace pervades both sides of the border
- making statements (official ones) that pekistan is an EQUAL victim of terror
- making official statements that america is a great friend instead of telling the truth as it is
- officially putting the bogey of 'hindu fundamentalists' on par with LeT/JuD

we are building a generation of clueless 'amanites' who will claim that as their motto. They will still love america and think that america is the beacon of liberty and democracy and all that jazz while america will continue to aid and abet the killing of indians. they will still believe that pakis and indians have too much in common and we need to jointly fight the 'terror' while many more 26/11's will be gifted by pakis to us. they will still hate the so-called 'hindu fundamentalists' and equate them to LeT. All with the complicity of GoI (the current GoI) due to political expediency and the media (because it is owned by americans in more ways than one)

It is good to rationalize that GoI is doing something (or rather not doing anything) because that is the only 'realpolitik' solution available. May be it is true that we cannot defy america, maybe we cannot defeat pakis because of unkil's largess. But we sure as hell don't have to keep shut about it.

JMHO

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby ramana » 05 Mar 2010 22:12

I ask all members which part of TSP thread you dont understand? Why the need to bring in India in every other post in this thread? We have numerous thread from whines to leadership discussions yet the members come repeateldyl post things extraneous to the thread title.

And seniority and earlier status is not immunity to repeated off topic posts.

Thanks, ramana

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby ramana » 05 Mar 2010 23:07

X-Post...
negi wrote:Well Unkil's intentions were always clear they realize that post 26/11 if another such attack takes place even MMS would give in to the public sentiments and TSPA terror machinery would be pounded i.e. Unkil will be left alone in Afganisthan and TSPA will mobilise all their resources on its eastern border . So Unkil plays the chanakian game (well this is what is chanakian) i.e. keep on arming TSP periodically just enough to deter the GOI from pulling the trigger .

The upgraded F-16's with SNIPER ATPs and new Paveway LGBs are a part of the same plan , Hole-broke's comments seem like a nice diversion as far as media is concerned .



Correct assessment. Its to deter the Indian forces from launching a Cold Start response. And hopefully allow the TSPA to shift its forces Westwards. It means the TSPA namrads are going to rely on fizzleya to defend in case of a Cold Start becomes Warm. And a big loss of H&D if things come to a head.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby CRamS » 06 Mar 2010 01:15

Guys:

There is only so much us ordinary private citizens can do to help mother India, besides impotent anger on BR that is, but please listen to today's Diane Rehm show on a foreign policy discussion. Of course AfPak, and TSP's role comes up. Fast forward to about 23 mins, 43 secs, and a guy called "Rakesh" call in and asks some questions, who knows it might actually have been CRamS using the pseodnym Rakesh :-). And see how the NYT reporter ducks the actual questions and instead talks about TSP focusing on India and insipd crap. And none of the others even touched it, either they knew what a con job Unkil is playing or they are "embedded reporters" who only know what white house, Pentagon, and state dept told them.

R-man, RamanaGaru, what do you think? How did "Rakesh" do and were his questions good?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby Rudradev » 06 Mar 2010 01:23

Good job CRamS!

Thanks for your arguments and especially for the patience and persistence it must have taken to get your call on the air. It is vitally important that our views get out there and remain out there, to challenge the shameless sophistry of the TSP backers in the US government, academia and media. Keep it up man... you have inspired me to try calling in to talk shows more often as well.

Perhaps we can organize the effort a bit. We should set up an email list to keep track of what relevant talk show episodes are coming up on NPR as well as other radio/TV stations, where AfPak etc. are going to be on the agenda. If several of us prepare ahead of time and call in to a particular show it increases the chance that at least one of us will get his views on the air.

Any who are interested, please email me: rudradev DOTT brf ATT g mail DOTT com

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby BijuShet » 06 Mar 2010 01:27

From DNA : Top Taliban leaders among 30 militants killed in Pakistan
Peshawar: Several top Taliban leaders were believed to be among 30 militants killed when Pakistani gunship helicopters bombed militants hideouts in the lawless Mohmand tribal region near the Afghan border today.

At least 30 militants were killed and 15 others injured in the air strikes in Pandiali area of Mohmand Agency, sources close to the security forces said.

Two sons of top Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan commander Maulvi Faqir Muhammad were reportedly killed in the bombardment, the sources said.
...
Reports on some TV news channels said Maulvi Faqir Muhammad and Qari Ziaur Rehman were also killed but the sources close to the Taliban said the presence of these commanders in the area could not be confirmed.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby A_Gupta » 06 Mar 2010 23:03

What happened? All March 6 postings seem to have vanished?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby ramana » 06 Mar 2010 23:07

A_Gupta wrote:What happened? All March 6 postings seem to have vanished?



Its like the movie "Sunday", only its a Saturday.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby ramana » 06 Mar 2010 23:20


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby Muppalla » 06 Mar 2010 23:20

A_Gupta wrote:What happened? All March 6 postings seem to have vanished?



x-Post

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby khan » 06 Mar 2010 23:44

I have been giving India's Pakistan policy some thought. I think that GOI's policy can be best summarized in 2 words: "Economy First".

GOI's policy is derived from India's core mission - to improve the lives off all her citizens. The Pakistani policy is derived from their core mission - to justify their existence by proving that they are better/stronger/richer than us.

Our core mission demands that we focus on the economy to better the lives of our citizens. Their core mission would require them to do the same - if they were capable of it. Since they aren't capable of sustaining a decent economy, they try the next best thing, which is to try to drag us down to their level.

The Pakistani Army would love nothing more than to have chronic regular skirmishes on the border with us. It will unite their ungovernable country, justify their existence, give their Jehadi's something productive to do and most importantly shave a few percentage points off our GDP growth - thus dragging us down to their level. GOI has spent 15 years trying to de-hyphenate India and Pakistan on the global stage and all that work will be undone in an instant. There will be no big game changers like the Nuclear deal or that permanent seat on the Security Council.

GOI's core policy is to do what ever it can to prevent Pakistan from interfering in the economy and they have been fantastically successful at it. Everything that is happening, whether it be talks, no talks or some talks is tactical posturing to reinforce that core policy.

Changing this core policy is only seriously considered when Pakistan does something outrageous that has the potential to derail the economic progress. Both the Parliament Attacks and the Mumbai attacks fit that criteria.

I do not think that India has a better alternative. Acting militarily against Pakistan will be expensive and the outcome uncertain... Anything could happen - Pakistan could collapse and disintegrate and GOI will have to spend the next decade dealing with the fallout instead of focussing on the economy. Or India could loose a couple of cities.

Dealing with the Pakistan problem diplomatically suits India just fine. The world is getting tired of Pakistan's nuclear blackmail and is becoming less receptive to their demands. Win or Loose, once the American's leave Afghanistan, Pakistan will not have any more money and will have to make some hard choices.

It might be humiliating to have to deal with retards like Kasab running loose in Mumbai with machine guns - and not being able to do anything about it... but it is less humiliating than running around the world begging for handouts like the Paki's are doing. It wasn't so long ago when we were doing the begging - we need to do whatever it takes to make sure we never ever end up in that situation again. The Pakis are doing everything they can to drag us back there.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby A_Gupta » 06 Mar 2010 23:47

^^^^
What khan wrote - the Pakistani Army and its terrorist branches are seeking relevancy.

Abdur Rahman Makki, Hafiz Saeed's deputy:
“Kashmir had become a cold issue. But by denying Pakistan water, India has ensured that every farmer in Punjab is lining up with his tractor and plough, ready to overrun India.”

At one time, jihadis were interested only in the liberation of Kashmir, but the water issue had ensured that “Delhi, Pune and Kanpur” were all fair targets, he said.


The water issue is even better for them than Kashmir, because the rivers will continue to flow through India, even if Kashmir becomes a "cold issue".

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby skaranam » 07 Mar 2010 00:21

khan wrote:I have been giving India's Pakistan policy some thought. I think that GOI's policy can be best summarized in 2 words: "Economy First".


What is the point of aiming at huge economy, when u do not have sufficient strenght to defend it. Indian Armed Forces are quite capable. However, future wars are asymmetric and no longer conventional. What we lack as of now is this asymmetric capability. I do not see any possibility of Indian Army running over Pakistan. With every attack we are increasing our threshold level. We are not able to inflict pain on the paki decision makers even symbolically.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby CRamS » 07 Mar 2010 00:23

khan wrote:
Dealing with the Pakistan problem diplomatically suits India just fine. The world is getting tired of Pakistan's nuclear blackmail and is becoming less receptive to their demands. Win or Loose, once the American's leave Afghanistan, Pakistan will not have any more money and will have to make some hard choices.



World? Can you name one other country, Ok Afganisthan maybe, but any other country that is tired of TSP's nuke blackmail? What the world is tired of on the contrary is India not giving what TSP wants so that the world will be a happy place thereafter.


It might be humiliating to have to deal with retards like Kasab running loose in Mumbai with machine guns - and not being able to do anything about it... but it is less humiliating than running around the world begging for handouts like the Paki's are doing. It wasn't so long ago when we were doing the begging - we need to do whatever it takes to make sure we never ever end up in that situation again. The Pakis are doing everything they can to drag us back there.


Pakis don't find their plight humiliating. Rather, they view their current "struggle" as another step towards hositing the green crescent over the red fort. Pakis believe they are on a winning wicket. Note the condescending cacophony from India expressing concern for TSP's imminent downfall has all but abated. Why? Because Pakis showed India the middle finger, got resurrected, and as you mention, have energized themselves to do what they do best: drag India down. A diplomatic approach bordering on concessions won't work. Rather, an approach isolating TSP, with the threat of war if need be, and undermining Pakijabis needs to be devised. Both Vajpayee and MMS have fallen for Unkil's charm and failed to institute such an approach.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby Boscoe » 07 Mar 2010 00:25

Totally agree with you Khan, another 15 odd years of growth of 8 - 10% and Pakistan will cease to exist...all without a single bullet fired.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby CRamS » 07 Mar 2010 00:28

Boscoe wrote:Totally agree with you Khan, another 15 odd years of growth of 8 - 10% and Pakistan will cease to exist...all without a single bullet fired.


And you think TSP will sit by idly and watch over those 15 years as India grows?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby Boscoe » 07 Mar 2010 00:34

They will not, they will try to bring us down to their level, however if we ignore them and concentrate on our economy, the average abdul will soon want to be part of India's success and that will bring them down. Its a matter of 15 odd years, we have tolerated them for the last 60 we can do so for the next 15!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby AbhishekD » 07 Mar 2010 00:39

The problem with the "Economy only" approach is that once the problem becomes unsurmountable and jihadis start destabalizing India's economic and political system then we wont have any solution in our hand. Right now if we handle the issue such that we reduce the terror threat coming from pakistan then we maybe able to make the problem managable

The so called "negotiation" with pakistan is not going to reduce the terrorist threat on India. The problem is just increasing. From the 1993 bombay bomb blast to the fidayen style attack in 2008, the L-e-T problem has just grown in leaps and bounds. L-e-T is becoming a Hamas like terrorist organization. It has terror networks all over the world. It has networks in US, UK, Middle East, Bangladesh. It has the diplomatic backing of Pakistani state and military training from Pakistan Army and vast funds from Pakistani people. This network has shown the capability and willingness to strike at India at their will. The Pune bomb blast clearly shows that L-e-T can strike at India at will and in a very short notice.

L-e-T as a terrorist organization is going to only grow from here. Given its tremendous success, it will attract funding, cadres and sympathy from all over the world. Now given such an organization, if it starts striking at India's economic interests and political stability then what are we going to do. Go to war then. If India has to goto war with Pakistan under pressure and duress at Pakistan's terms then it will be a sure shot disaster, and if anybody thinks that it is not going to come to such a situation then he is basically fooling himself.

The time to strike should be determined by us and not the enemy. We should strike at our own time and also work to contain the problem till we develop the capability to strike. The present MMS government is not doing anything to contain L-e-T or the terror infra in Pakistan. They are engaged in love fest with pakistan with likely negotiations over kashmir.

They are thinking that the problem is because of kashmir and once kashmir is solved this terrorism will be solved. The belief of MMS is that this problem can be solved if we work on our relationship with pakistan. His call for "walking the extra mile" is just such a call MMS believes that if somehow India can reach an agreement with pakistan on kashmir, terrorist can be deterred.

Unfortunately terrorist are deterred by killing them, not by negotiating with them. The present government is going to be responsible for allowing L-e-T to expand its infrastructure and capability to a level that we in india may see the worst trrorist strike ever in the history of mankind or possibly even a strike on one of india's nuclear installation. And MMS may still be saying that dialogue is the only way forward.

In nut shell this"economy only " approach is good, but that can prove conunter productive very quickly once india is proven to be unsafe to do business in. Already sports has become dangerous. Hotels, religious places, tourist spots and now even universities. Of course business places such as IT buildings have already been put under high security. There would come a time when business will start getting affected and then we will be stuck. Our economy wiil be going down and we would not have created a soluton for the problem, hoping that it wont expand to the level that it will start hurting us politically and economically.

The MMS approach of "economy only" and negotiations to stall the enemy a little bit is going to get us into trouble. L-e-T will launch spectacular attacks against India and we will still be fiddling around. We need a solution to this problem and "economy only" is not the solution.

We need to start engaging with these terrrorist and start killing them, without engaging in a full scale war and without bearing an unacceptable cost. We need to do it now, indeed we needed to start doing it yesterday.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby A_Gupta » 07 Mar 2010 00:43

^^^^^^

Get Cold Start truly working.

To expand on this a little: what Pakistan has to do each time it tells LeT to strike is to weigh the potential costs of that action against the potential gains. {Ignore the fact for now that India has not levied any real costs on Pakistan.} Computing the costs involves a complex calculation of the damage India will suffer versus the damage Pakistan will suffer if India really escalates in retaliation for the LeT action. And I may be wrong, but I think the facts are that Indian conventional armed forces capabilities do not yet have a sufficient edge. Remember, India has to strike fast and withdraw fast enough that the world sees no justification for Pakistan to go on nuclear alert.

China and the US will keep arming Pakistan to neutralize any edge India develops - but there is a limit to what they can do if India keeps growing economy-wise and investing only a fixed percentage of its GDP wisely in its armed forces. {Yes, it is important to recognize that this is an investment. It is an insurance policy. }
Last edited by A_Gupta on 07 Mar 2010 00:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby Boscoe » 07 Mar 2010 00:55

India today is not any safer or more dangerous than it was 5 - 8 years ago, and yet it has grown economically. We have had challenges, but have weathered them somewhat successfully. This is exactly what we need to do for the next 15 odd years, there will definitely be and perhaps even more 'collateral damage' but we got to view it in the greater scheme of things and concentrate on raising our per capita income to about 4 o 5 times that of Pakistan. A richer East Punjabi, East Rajasthani, East Gujarati will automatically spell the death of Pakistan as a state, and that will be our victory!


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