Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

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Nihat
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby Nihat » 07 Mar 2010 00:55

"Economy Only" is good if it helps our diplomacy become more aggresive wrt to TSP, perhaps something on the lines of China who have shown the will to stand up to the US on almost every forum from Iran, Climate Change, Hacking to Human Rights.

We've seriously got to start throwing our weight around a bit more because the more we bend in kindness and concessions to TSP, the harder we'll get kicked by them. Keep those pigs under preassure at all times, be it military expansion, assertive foreign policy stance and effective psy-ops.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby JwalaMukhi » 07 Mar 2010 01:07

There is some how hope that once India's economy reaches gazzillion rupees and every Indian becomes 'Navakoti narayan' then India can hire mercenaries to conduct trivial matters as self defense. The hope is that the hired mercenaries will be able to dispense justice and conduct defense. Such are the hopes of wise.
This is a grand idea to actually postpone the problem to future generations, with the hope that by then the problem will magically go away. It is precedent set and an example upheld, so future generations can look up to these examples that 'economy/money' will solve all the problems, and necessarily extracting justice and conducting self defense.
The hope is the future generations will be able to reduce the issues, because of economic difference. India can threaten to bribe everyone to avoid attacking India because it can afford to.
OTOH, it is unclear if the idea is to have kumbhaya, why is economy needed at all. How hard (yes, some effort is needed to get there) is it for India to reach to the level of our friendly neighbour. Bring on more of aman-ki-tamasha so the future generations will be hard pressed to differentiate where India begins or our friendly neighbour ends. Problem solved, when one becomes part of the problem. Looking forward to the day when India becomes so rich that aam admi can hire some Bakis to provide z-category security for self-defense. Such are the miracles of economy onlee approach.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby Boscoe » 07 Mar 2010 01:10

Nihat, we cannot really make a comparison to China - USA. The USA does not maintain a state policy of death to China by a thousand cuts like our friends to the west. China and the USA do not share a border, China can therefore stand up to the USA secure in the knowledge that the US will not attempt any sort of a terror threat on the Chinese mainland, unfortunately we cannot do the same, and the smartest thing to do in such a situation is to talk, and thats what our government is doing....we need to buy time, and concentrate on our economy for now.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby AbhishekD » 07 Mar 2010 01:21

Boscoe says:
India today is not any safer or more dangerous than it was 5 - 8 years ago, and yet it has grown economically


I dont know how you can say this. In last 5 years, attacks on temples, hotels, universities, railway station, rail transportation and other economic interests have made India really unsafe. Dont you see the cry by foreign sportsperson to not come to India or the fear of visiting India even for a small stay for sporting events. Business advisories by western countries have become regular and will start affecting visits by foreign business people.

As I said we dont need to act in a manner that is going to affect us economically, but their is certainly approaches that will reduce the terrorist threat, yet not affect our economy. This passive approach has started affecting our economy and we are still not working to reduce the threat.

We need to start covert action inside pakistan. We need to start with executing the terrorist of Indian origin inside pakistan. It is very safe, without any diplomatic fallout and highly desirable. Pakistan will not be able to do anything and we will be able to reduce the threat to managable level. We dont need to initiate spectacular military action. Small effective steps that will cut down the network to managable level is the need of the hour and it can happen only if we take action against terrorist inside pakistan who are an imminent threat.


Just to name a few.

1. Amir Reza Khan (Founder of IM)
2. Riyaz Batkal
3. Dawood Ibrahim
4. Tiger Menon

These are just few names. I am sure the Intelligence agencies have more names that needs to be targetted and killed. Within the L-e-T network, we can leave Hafiz Saeed from the program, but definitely lower rung leader, operation managers, recruiters, funding people need to be killed or brought out and arrested. Diplomacy is not going to solve this problem. Killing these terrorists is going to solve the problem

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby khan » 07 Mar 2010 01:27

I don't know why people are using the term "Economy Only". It is not like we are neglecting the Armed Forces. As several people have noted, they are strong enough to take on Pakistan (even China for that matter) and we continue to invest in them.

In fact one of the main reasons Pakistan wants to cripple the economy is because they feel (rightfully) threatened by our continued investment in our armed forces.

Without a strong economy, it is game over. The military will weaken, the internal situation will worsen and any diplomatic gains made will regress.

Direct military action against Pakistan poses an unacceptable risk to India's (still fragile) economy. Diplomatic and covert operations are options that pose the lowest risk to the economy. GOI seems to consider both options to be on the table.

That said, if the provocations gets to a point where it starts hurting the economy more than a war would, then GOI will probably consider direct military options. The Parliament attack and Mumbai were both significant enough to make GOI consider military options.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby CRamS » 07 Mar 2010 01:29

A_Gupta wrote:
China and the US will keep arming Pakistan to neutralize any edge India develops - but there is a limit to what they can do if India keeps growing economy-wise and investing only a fixed percentage of its GDP wisely in its armed forces. {Yes, it is important to recognize that this is an investment. It is an insurance policy. }


As bitter as I was with US from day 1 since this so called war on terror that terror against India was excluded, but I always thought, matter of fact never had a doubt that the denouement of AfPak would at least have some collateral benefit for India in that TSP, the apicenter of terror which everbody agrees on, would have been sufficently enervated to not pose a threat to its neighbors. Instead, how wrong was my thinking, the whole thing is turning topsy turvy, and TSP, thanks to US has actually been energized as a result of war on terror, ready to strike on its neighbors at will. Truly mind boggling, and I wonder if someone can a write a book about this colonial statecraft where the erstwhile colonial powers through military and other means have preserved & managed their TSP assets without any impending risk to them. But then who knows 15-20 years from now. Recall, the same west were in bed with Bin Ladin against the Soviets and we know the history thereafter.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby khan » 07 Mar 2010 01:38

AbhishekD wrote:I dont know how you can say this. In last 5 years, attacks on temples, hotels, universities, railway station, rail transportation and other economic interests have made India really unsafe. Dont you see the cry by foreign sportsperson to not come to India or the fear of visiting India even for a small stay for sporting events. Business advisories by western countries have become regular and will start affecting visits by foreign business people.


That might be so, but how is it affecting the economy?

It is still growing by 8-10%. Momentum has a value of its own. An economy that is growing at 8% will continue to attract money which will keep the economy growing.

Things have gotten to the point where smaller terrorist attacks are built into the model. Pakistan will have to pull off Mumbai sized attacks to interfere with the economy, the smaller attacks won't cut it.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby Boscoe » 07 Mar 2010 01:41

I'm all for targeted action, (a la hush hush Mossad, in Dubai recently) however I am totally opposed to direct confrontation with the Pigs (for now).

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby Muppalla » 07 Mar 2010 01:42

India-Pakistan Talks -- The fiasco that need not have been - Vikram Sood

The India Pak talks were followed by the usual Prime Time agony on TV on February 25 as wise men and women dissected what went wrong. There was considerable surprise and consternation at how events and strategies unfolded that day. It was obvious that the theatrics by the Pakistan Foreign Secretary caught us by surprise. It was equally obvious that we had not done our homework. Actually what Salman Bashir did was a scaled down version of what Musharraf did at the India Today Conclave a year ago in New Delhi and much more scaled down version of his antics at the Agra Summit. It should have been déjà vu.

I had written about these tricks last year, pointing out that whenever Pakistanis want to launch their careers or burnish their fading images, they come here. The artiste performs to gushing audiences while the politician, general, or civil servant addresses his domestic audience in Pakistan. It pays or, is indeed expected, that he should act tough while in New Delhi. Rare is the case that a man comes to New Delhi and talks reasonably in public. One eminent journalist of a well known Pakistani magazine made that mistake some years ago and the agencies got to him pretty quickly when he got back with their gruff midnight knock. So this should have been anticipated and prevented unless this was a deep Brahmanical ploy and the Pakistanis are still trying to figure this out.

The game plan was obvious the moment we announced that we would resume dialogue. The first thing Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi did was to jump onto his high horse, fulminate in Multan about how Pakistan had brought India to its knees and proclaim victory. This was a novel way of restoring normalcy. It was then the turn of the jihadis to warm up to the act. Hafeez Saeed was off the mark first when he announced that one Mumbai was not enough and that jihad was the only way. Wanted in India, this outburst was described later by the Foreign Secretary as Saeed’s exercise of his democratic right of free speech. Just before the Delhi tamasha got going, the Pak Foreign Minister offered his Chinese hosts a blank cheque to help improving India Pak relations. The astute Chinese did not bite the bait, knowing that such cheques could bounce.
Abdul Rahman Makki, brother in law of Hafiz Saeed, and the new face of terror against India, was jingoist about jihad in Kashmir on February 4 when he also warned that Pune would be the next target. So it was on February 13. We did not withdraw the offer to talk. Two days before the talks were to commence 23-year old Captain Devendra Singh Jass and two soldiers died combating terrorists in Sopore. Before the talks commenced the Pakistan Foreign Secretary assures Syed Ali Shah Geelani, that secessionist who does not want to live in Pakistan, continued support. He says this after meeting him in our country. We allow the meeting therefore say nothing. We did not call off the talks. How could we do that anyway? We had already announced that talks and terrorism could continue simultaneously. Moreover, we have this great desire to look good and seek approval from the West.

Two days after the talks were over, Pakistan sponsored Taliban or Haqqani networks or Lashkar e Tayyaba terrorists or all three put together, hunted and killed Indians in a guest house in Kabul. The message they are giving us - if we care to decipher it -- we can hit you in Kashmir, in Maharashtra and in Kabul; we will do it again and there is nothing you can do about it.

It is not that one should not talk to one’s neighbour, after all they cannot relocate. The talks had been called off after an angry India demanded that Pakistan breakdown the terror infrastructure and stop cross-border terrorism after 26/11. The question is simply whether that has been achieved and if Pakistan has given India adequate satisfaction on this? What has been achieved between November 26, 2008 and now, that we felt compelled either on our own or under gentle nudging to be magnanimous and resume this dialogue of the deaf?

The other issue is that our Candlelight Brigade never tires of telling us about the oceans of goodwill that the people of Pakistan have for us and that they want nothing but peace with India. It also claimed that there is a representative government in Pakistan now that should represent this sentiment. If that be so, then what is the need for the Pakistani establishment to play to the hard line lobby that prefers to wage jihad in India not just Kashmir in preference to waging peace? This leads one to conclude that the leadership, pumped up today even more, post Istanbul and London, feels that their moment both in Afghanistan and against India has come. Happily placed as America’s indispensable ally, even as they allow anti-American sentiments to flourish, they can do no wrong. It is very clearly a successful foreign policy in the short term and they can continue to play the hardline act.

Therefore, to talk peace with India at this juncture is dangerous for the corporate interests of the Armed Forces and their allies in the bureaucracy, the politicians, feudal landed class and the mullah all of whom depend upon the Army for their survival. All get their dividends from this state of affairs. The peace dividend is much weaker for them. The US would no longer give them any good boy bonus. Besides, peace with India means having to divert troops away from the Indian frontier to the west and participate in acting more diligently against their own protégés, the Taliban. It also means admitting that India does not pose an existential threat to Pakistan adversely affecting the Army’s primacy is based on false strategic premises bur very sound sectional interests.

Our efforts to enlist Saudi Arabian support (or interlocution) in the Pakistan context may not yield the desired results. Having supported Wahhabi Islam in Pakistan and Afghanistan, contributed heavily to the Taliban cause and having always described the Kashmir issue as a freedom struggle, it makes sense only if there is a change of heart in Riyadh. Saudi-Pakistan relations are too deep to expect the Saudis to intercede on our behalf. Anyhow no harm in trying to enlist support and hope to succeed where others have failed –like Indira Gandhi when she tried to get Saudi support against the Khalistanis operating from Pakistan.

In dealing with Pakistan we need to remember a few things. They will blame us for all their ills and also complain that we do not help them solve their problems. They have also assessed that we will not do anything more than what we have done so far and the US will not say more than they have so far. It was Pakistan who believed in the two nation theory. There was no reason for us to convert this into a Hindu-Muslim issue by constantly trying to deal with Pakistan by assuming that India’s Muslims wanted India to be lenient with Pakistan because of their religion. What Indian Muslims want is to be treated as Indians –no matter what their problems -and we should therefore treat people of Pakistan as Pakistanis and not simply as Muslims. {However, here is the problem and UPA talking to Pakistan is all about apeasing Indian Muslims. It will become too much of political and OT for this thread or any thread in BR. I strongly beleive so and again I respectfully diagree to someone who thinks that India Muslim sentiments are not in the picture here.}When we learn to treat them so, just as we treat French or Germans as French and Germans and not as Christians, we will find a different way of handling this issue. {I beleive Vikram Sood believed that Indian government is not thinking that way and again I concur.}Last year, I wrote elsewhere, that “Let us not forget that the largest number of Muslims that has ever lived in a democracy anywhere in the world for such a long time is in India. In Pakistan they are now saying that Islam and democracy are incompatible. The word secularism does not exist in the mullah’s vocabulary, not even in the minds of some self proclaimed moderates like General Musharraf.”

This is our strength and we should learn to use it.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby khan » 07 Mar 2010 01:53

Boscoe wrote:I'm all for targeted action, (a la hush hush Mossad, in Dubai recently) however I am totally opposed to direct confrontation with the Pigs (for now).

Me too - so long as it is deniable... last thing we need is a Kasab situation in Pakistan with one of our guys.

I think that instead of using targeted action directly against our enemies, we should use it to create fissures in Pakistani society. Using it directly against our enemies will reduce deniability and could serve to unite them - just as a war would. Supporting "freedom fighters" in Sindh/Baluchistan, fermenting a peasants revolt or stirring the Shia-Sunni pot makes more sense...

GOI seems to be doing the Baluchistan thing already.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby JwalaMukhi » 07 Mar 2010 01:56

Muppalla wrote:}
Last year, I wrote elsewhere, that “Let us not forget that the largest number of Muslims that has ever lived in a democracy anywhere in the world for such a long time is in India. In Pakistan they are now saying that Islam and democracy are incompatible. The word secularism does not exist in the mullah’s vocabulary, not even in the minds of some self proclaimed moderates like General Musharraf.”


This is our strength and we should learn to use it.

That is actually a sad and telling commentary on the state of affairs. It doesn't imply our strength. It is a sad state of affairs that implies Muslims when in large numbers(except Indians) do not like to live in democracy anywhere in the world and for a long period of time. Maybe what is desirous of non-muslims is being projected as good and desirous for muslims.
Demonstrably, as stated by Vikram Sood, it takes all kinds of machinations by India to stream line and project that democracy is desirous for everyone. It is taking its toll and it is not cheap to demonstrate that outcome. So, it is not necessarily a strength, it is just fortitude and forebearance exhibited by India.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby csharma » 07 Mar 2010 02:06

As long as India does not make concessions to Pakistan chai biskoot at a low level with them is fine. We know that Americans are pushing for concessions for Pakistan. (MD Nalpat, Brajesh Mishra have said this). There is apprehension that in the guise of some great understanding with Pakistan, India might make some concessions. SeS seemed like GoI was going down that path.

If MMS wanted to resume chai biskoot sessions on his own it is one thing. But it appears that they might have done it because of US, UK pressure (again BM spoke about this). That is where the problem lies. How far will the GoI go in accomodating these demands from the new friends and allies.

So, overall the concern is that India should not provide concessions to a country that is inflicting terror on it. American pressure should be dealt with.

At this point there is circumstantial evidence that is causing concern, I hope that over time these concerns turn out to be invalid.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby Muppalla » 07 Mar 2010 02:50

B. Raman Tweets and articles on Pak, Terror and India's approach since the talks were announced.

--------------------------------------------------------
Most of our analysts, including KS, have failed to draw attention to dangers of defeatism.Our Pak policy was never in a worse shape.- Mar 6th
BJP totally confused.Sushma Swaraj unable to wake up the people to the risks in MMS' policy.- Mar 6th {as usal general fetish to bring BJP in to picture. If they talk too much then they are just communal and if they keep quite they are sleeping :) }

MMS is even softer to Pak than IKGujral- Mar 6th

China does not indulge in nuclear blackmail.- Mar 6th
Pak blackmailing India & world by talking of nuclear war if J&K & river waters issue not addressed.PM unable to put Pak in its place.- Mar 6th

Ind-Pak not comparable to US-USSR dialogue. There was no proxy war between US & USSR.- Mar 6th
BJP has been a disappointment. Unable to counter effectively misleading arguments of PM.- Mar 6th

Unfortunate noone in Congress like Pranab M or Chidambaram or Antony is raising these issues.SG does not seem to understand implications.- Mar 6th

Any reversal of our presence in Afghanistan will create an impression of weakness and lack of determination in New Delhi.- Mar 6th

Recent statements of PM MMS on dialogue with Pakistan unfortunate. Likely to be misinterpreted by Pakistan as battle fatigue & defeatism- Mar 6th

Right of internal mobility a ticklish issue for Chinese leaders. Demand for free migration gathers momentum. 1:27 AM Mar 5th

Fresh Fears of Maritime Terrorism http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... orism.html 1:22 AM Mar 5th
What next in Pakistan's Pashtun Belt? http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... -belt.html 9:14 PM Mar 3rd
India, Pakistan, Afghanistan & the US http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... an-us.html 12:45 PM Mar 3rd
Indian Eggs In Saudi Basket http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... asket.html 1:51 AM Mar 3rd
Jihadi Terrorism in India: The Saudi Connection http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... saudi.html 8:56 PM Mar 1st
Jundallah & Lashkar-e-Jhangvi might retaliate against Pak for betraying Abdul Malik Rigi to Iranian intelligence 9:36 AM Mar 1st
Jundallah of Iranian Balochistan chooses new Amir Al-Hajj Muhammed Dhahir Baluch ,Furious with Pak for betraying Abdulmalik Rigi to Tehran 9:34 AM Mar 1st
Futile to expect Saudi Arabia to help India on the terrorism issue. 9:18 AM Mar 1st
LET a strong supporter of Saudi ruling family.Has close contacts with Saudi intelligence. Has an office in Saudi Arabia. 9:17 AM Mar 1st
Saudi Arabia unlikely to be helpful.Next to ISI, Saudi intelligence is an important source of funding for LET. 9:16 AM Mar 1st
No.3: Manmohan Singh raises the issue with Saudi Arabia. First time India has done so publicly. 9:15 AM Mar 1st
The updated list includes many absconding Indian Mujahideen cadres working for LET. Next step: Issue of red alerts for them by INTERPOL 9:13 AM Mar 1st
No.2: Updating of list of terrorists---Indians & Pakis---wanted for trial in India who have been given shelter in Pakistan. 9:11 AM Mar 1st
No.1: Focus on Ilyas Kashmiri of 313 Brigade who is a co-accused in the FBI case against Headley & Rana. 9:09 AM Mar 1st
Three important steps in public diplomacy. 9:08 AM Mar 1st
India steps up public diplomacy against Pak inaction against jihadi terrorists while keeping door open for more meetings of FSs 9:08 AM Mar 1st
Omar Sheikh, the orchestrator of the kidnap & murder of Daniel Pearl, is in jail without much progress in the appeal filed by him 9:05 AM Mar 1st
Rashid Rauf, a suspect in the case to blow up a number of US-bound planes from UK, was allegedly killed in a US Drone attack in FATA. 9:03 AM Mar 1st
Reminiscent of the cases of Rashid Rauf and Omar Sheikh who were protected by ISI from interrogation by UK & US respectively. 9:01 AM Mar 1st
Lahore High Court bars their being handed over to Afghanistan till legal proceedings against them in Pakistan are over 9:00 AM Mar 1st
Pakistan protects arrested Afghan Taliban leaders from interrogation by US to cover up its links with them. 8:59 AM Mar 1st
The New Front in the Jihad Against India http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... india.html 7:36 PM Feb 28th
Indian fatalities in Kabul blasts http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... lasts.html 11:13 PM Feb 26th
Its round-up of Afghan Taliban leaders to please US may be accompanied by escalation of terrorism against India 8:41 PM Feb 26th
Whenever Pak has stepped up cooperation with US, in Afghanistan it has given a free hand to anti-India jihadis to mollify them. 8:40 PM Feb 26th
Our counter-terrorism strategy has to think regional. How to protect Indian lives & interests in India, Afghanistan & Bangladesh? 8:38 PM Feb 26th
Meant to convey message that jihadi offensive against India has been resumed.After Kabul, it could be Dhaka. 8:35 PM Feb 26th
Presuming Pune blast was by LET,possible linkage between Pune & Kabul attacks. 8:34 PM Feb 26th
India-Pakistan----What Next? http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... -next.html 8:43 PM Feb 25th
NEWS X discussion on the Indo-Pak FS meeting scheduled for 24th at 8-30 PM cancelled. 8:50 AM Feb 24th
Feb.24 8-30 PM .NEWS X . Discussion on Indo-Pak FS talks 7:28 AM Feb 24th
Iran Captures Baloch Sunni Leader http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... -anti.html 7:26 AM Feb 24th
Indo-Pak Foreign Secretaries' Meeting http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... eting.html 11:17 PM Feb 23rd
Hit, but Stealthily http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... thily.html 6:39 AM Feb 23rd
Breast-beating, not action has become our derfining characteristic. 10:49 PM Feb 22nd
Nation-saving, life-saving covert capability here & now is the need of the hour. We have become a nation of breast-beaters 10:48 PM Feb 22nd
Tragedy that not only politicos, but even strategic thinkers like K.Subramanian don't understand the life-saving importance of covert action 10:46 PM Feb 22nd
Time to start thinking, strategising & acting now. We can't stop them without covert action 10:44 PM Feb 22nd
We can't afford to do nothing till they enter our territory. They must be neutralised in Pak territory.. 10:42 PM Feb 22nd
If US fails to prevail, a new breed of battle hardened jihadis of post 9/11 vintage will be on us. We must plan to stop them in Pakistan. 10:41 PM Feb 22nd
When USSR failed to prevail in Afghanistan in 1988, India faced the jihadis diverted from the Afghan front. We are still confronting them. 10:39 PM Feb 22nd
Obama in Afghanistan----nothing to learn, nothing to forget. 9:20 PM Feb 22nd
Obama stranded in Marjah.US troops caught in a Taliban trap. 9:19 PM Feb 22nd
But we shd not lose our sense of balance. 11:50 AM Feb 22nd
We shd proterst to Pakistan over failure to rescue the Sikhs & demand protection for other Sikhs in that area. 11:49 AM Feb 22nd
Lashkar-e-Islam is not a creation & hand-maiden of ISI. It has been killing Pakistani Shias & other Muslims. It is a savage group 11:47 AM Feb 22nd
LET is a creation & hand-maiden of ISI. We have every reason to react violently against Pak Govt when LET does something. 11:45 AM Feb 22nd
The Chinese reacted with dignity realising Pak Govt. has no control over these groups. We should too. 11:43 AM Feb 22nd
In the tribal belt, Chinese engineers have been kidnapped & killed in the past for failure to pay ransom 11:41 AM Feb 22nd
Beheading of two Sikhs by Lashkar-e-Islam in the Khyber/Orakzai areas because of failure to pay ransom. We must avoid Hyde Park reactions. 11:40 AM Feb 22nd
Obama's surge in Afghanistan & new Af-Pak tactics off to a disappointing start. Will there be changes in his advisers on national security? 9:04 AM Feb 22nd
What are other covert action options available to Israel? Deniable attacks on Iran's oil & gas assets. 9:01 AM Feb 22nd
Bin Laden In Karachi? http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... rachi.html 10:23 PM Feb 21st
ISI & Afghan Taliban http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... g-old.html 1:02 AM Feb 21st
US strateghy two-pronged---disrupt Afghan Taliban's command & control in Pakistan & isolate Taliban fighters in Helmand 9:57 AM Feb 20th
Al Qaeda not involved so far in Helmand fighting. Afghan Talliban has kept it out. 9:55 AM Feb 20th
Mulla Omar's whereabouts not clear. Some Pashtun sources believe he is neither in Quetta nor in Karachi. 9:54 AM Feb 20th
Fighting in Helmand not decisive one way or other.Karachi arrest of Omar's No 2 Baradar has had no impact on Taliban morale. 9:51 AM Feb 20th
Mossad Strikes in Dubai http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... tions.html 10:31 PM Feb 18th
Terrorism & IPL Cricket http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... -will.html 8:29 AM Feb 18th
Threat to sports events http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... pt-to.html 4:48 AM Feb 17th
US hunts for Taliban in Karachi http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... n-non.html 9:42 PM Feb 16th
Ilyas Ibrahim: Pl. also see http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpap ... r3481.html 3:12 AM Feb 16th
Ilyas Ibrahim has reportedly threatened India with attacks. Pl see http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... igade.html 3:07 AM Feb 16th
India-Pakistan---To Talk or Not To Talk? http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... -talk.html 10:04 PM Feb 15th
Senator John Kerry's visit to Delhi was fixed before Pune blast. He is very keen that India shd respond to Pak concerns. 7:43 AM Feb 15th
Now, we have given US a locus standi in Indo-Pak matters without openly admitting it. 7:39 AM Feb 15th
But our past meetings were at our initiative and not under US pressure. In the past, we did not allow the US to exercise any pressure. 7:38 AM Feb 15th
Third example: Vajpayee's meeting with Nawaz at Lahore & with Musharraf at Agra. 7:37 AM Feb 15th
Another example Narasimha Rao's meetings with Nawaz at Davos, Jakarta & Harare at height of terrorism in Kashmir. 7:36 AM Feb 15th
Example cricket diplomacy of Zia-ul-Haq & Rajiv even when ISI was helping Khalistani terrorists. 7:35 AM Feb 15th
We have had dialogue with Pakistan in the past even when terrorism was continuing. 7:34 AM Feb 15th
An Anti-Terror Wake-up Call. Pl. visit http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... -call.html 8:19 PM Feb 14th
Why attack on German Bakery in Pune? Pl. visit http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... -pune.html 8:19 PM Feb 13th
Pune's Past Jihadi Connections. PL. visit http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... tions.html 11:39 AM Feb 13th
HM shd attend SAARC HMs' conference in Islamabad next month. Shd. be accompanied by HS,DIB,DG NIA & DG BSFShd propose NIA-FIA hotline. 5:49 AM Jan 29th
Have we lost anything by not having composite dialogue with Pakistan? 12:54 PM Jan 28th

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby vera_k » 07 Mar 2010 03:08

^^^

Don't know what Raman expects the BJP to do. IMO Sushma Swaraj is doing the right thing by giving MMS a long rope while letting their opposition be known. He should think about how many Indian agencies are willing to transfer allegiance over to Swaraj if it comes to that. Not one would be my guess at this point in time.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby csharma » 07 Mar 2010 03:21

Boss, Are Vikram Sood and B Raman writing such stuff because their favourite party is not in power?

From Vikram Sood's article

Moreover, we have this great desire to look good and seek approval from the West.


This is the issue. How far is one going to go down this lane?


Any vision of grand peace deal with Pakistan is bound to fail and I hope MMS and SS Menon know that. US cannot guarantee any such peace.
Last edited by csharma on 07 Mar 2010 03:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby shyamd » 07 Mar 2010 03:26

I disagree with many parts of the B Raman article. India today is not the India of 10 or 15 years ago and also he should keep in mind that the KSA government today, isnt really the same as 10 years ago. It has recently undergone major changes itself and is still changing. Its correct that KSA-TSP ties are too close, but thats precisely why we should engage with someone who can actually do something about TSP rather than talk to TSP directly. We don't have anything to lose, and more to gain if we can actually make it difficult for Dawood and SIMI types to take refuge in KSA. Forbes says LeT finance chief had been arrested and deported.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby Muppalla » 07 Mar 2010 04:26

shyamd wrote:I disagree with many parts of the B Raman article. India today is not the India of 10 or 15 years ago and also he should keep in mind that the KSA government today, isnt really the same as 10 years ago. It has recently undergone major changes itself and is still changing. Its correct that KSA-TSP ties are too close, but thats precisely why we should engage with someone who can actually do something about TSP rather than talk to TSP directly. We don't have anything to lose, and more to gain if we can actually make it difficult for Dawood and SIMI types to take refuge in KSA. Forbes says LeT finance chief had been arrested and deported.


Even Vikram Sood another RAW guys also thinks the same way as B.Raman. KSA never harboured Indian criminals but it has influence over those who hold them. KSA will always have plausible deniability about not being able to help. Dawood and SIMI types are more in UAE than in KSA.

IMHO - The relationship with KSA for India is simply business and nothing strategic in the foreseable future. Not that we should not have friendship with KSA but they being interlocutor/mediator with our TSP problems is just a joke.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby SSridhar » 07 Mar 2010 04:48

I will re-post my disappeared one.

CRamS wrote:. . . any grievance they may have against PA dissipates. There is only a sense of admiration and respect. The only way India can bring about the latent resentment the TSP Abduls have against PA would be for India to deliver a few hefty blows to PA that would severly dent their H&D in the eyes the Abduls. Thats when we can see a revolution of sorts. And with current Indian leadership, any chance of this happening is as improbable as the chance I have of owning the Golden gate bridge.


CRS, I quite agree with you.

Every time, the PA seized power, the masses welcomed them in great glee. Ayub Khan was welcomed as a 'saviour'. Whenever, their power appeared to be waning, the PA either replaced their top man or withdrew discretely behind the democracy smokescreen. The damage to the PA was avoided or minimized. That was how Yahya took over from Ayub and ZAB took over from Yahya. When Zia & Musharraf became hated figures, democracy was 'restored' until the situation became favourable. Defeats suffered by the PA were either turned to victories through Goebellian propaganda or described as Yahud-Hanud-Yankee conspiracy when the defeat was massive enough not to be whitewashed. The reputation of the Army was thus kept more or less intact.

The Pakistani society may have deep religious, political, linguistic and ethnic faultlines, but they unite when it matters. The only time it matters is when 'enemy infidel India' is threatening. That is why the Army and the jihadists are held in great esteem in Pakistan. Whenever the internal situation reaches an alarming level where the integrity of the State is threatened, the bogey of the kafir will be resurrected to consolidate the situation.

I also have sympathy for the Pakistani masses. Their political leaders are incapable of providing governance. Pakistan believes in a highly centralized and powerful setup to rule the country. Jinnah amassed all powers to himself as Governor General and set the precedent. Their religion also believes in a caliph ruling the entire world. Not for them is then the democratic setup and distribution of power. The Army effectively provides such
a centralized setup.

The permanent establishment, the judiciary, the Army and the mullahs favoured such an approach. Confrontation developed only when the judiciary refused to play ball repeatedly with Musharraf.

The masses have no option but to trust the PA because they know that their political class is useless. Even if the PA is exposed, they have no option but to continue to have faith in them to save them from the kafir.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby SSridhar » 07 Mar 2010 04:50

Muppalla wrote:KSA never harboured Indian criminals . . .

Not true, but let's not bother too much with that.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby NikhilB » 07 Mar 2010 05:05

Let us assume hypothetical situation 15 years now with India grown 10% a year and our per capita increased 5 fold. Let us say we have much much richer East Punjab, East Gujraat, East Rajasathan (and West Bengal too) compared to their regional counterparts ?

What then ? How are we going to stop immigrants ? Natural influx of thousdans if not millions of people coming to India across the border ? Are only wire compounds enough ? Or for most of our border, we do not even have wired compound ? Do we know how Berlin wall fell down, and how East to West Germany immigration increated many fold just before it's fall. We dont want Paki filth coming to our land just because they failed to create good goverence on their side.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby Muppalla » 07 Mar 2010 05:41

SSridhar wrote:
Muppalla wrote:KSA never harboured Indian criminals . . .

Not true, but let's not bother too much with that.


You are right. "Never" is a wrong word. In comparision to Canada, UK, US, TSP and UAE, KSA is low on the radar. May be on the lines of what Thailand holds.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby shiv » 07 Mar 2010 07:03

Muppalla wrote:
webmaster wrote:*** IMPORTANT ***

Earlier today I tried to upgrade the forum software to latest version however the upgrade was not successful, so I have had to restore the data from last nights’ backup unfortunately this means that any posts in the last 8 hours will be lost. I am sorry for any inconvenience.

Regards,
Seetal


It's a conspiracy. It shows unkil's influence. I had made a post that would have caused revolution and its gone...

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby Johann » 07 Mar 2010 07:57

Joseph, CRS, Chetak, S Sridhar,

Yes, Zaid Hamid is the PA's megaphone to the Pakistani, and particularly Pakjabi middle class. But our friend Zaid doesnt have the stage to himself - in fact his emergence is something of a defensive reaction on the part of the PA which is facing its biggest ideological challenge since the 1970s, if not ever.

The PA's abject failure to defend Pakistan's sovereignty from the Americans, its inability to maintain public safety and public order in the face of Pakiban bombs and takeovers, and the enormous human cost to civilians of its counter-offensives, the anemic response to the Kashmiri earthquake, have all done real damage to the esteem in which the PA's senior officer corps is held. Its not even very good at scaring the India with wars or the threat of wars.

The best way to get a pulse of the Pakjabi middle classes aspirations is to watch the most popular Pakistani channels and programmes.
I am struck by the intensity and number of comments all over the internet whenever the Pak state attempts to muscle the big channels shut like GeoTV, or the relief and joy when the state inevitably backs down.

The satellite TV revolution that's taken place in the 5-6 years has for the first time created a space that is not dominated by the state, or state-sponsored Islam. This doesn't mean that they are preaching sedition, or anything like that. They like to think of themselves as liberals who love their country, just like the television spaces in India or in America. But what it does produce is an articulation of national interests, and the best way to pursue them that is not in line with that of the PA's. I've been astonished by the kinds of questions I've seen retired generals get asked, and the kind of dirty linen aired in Urdu and Urd-lish, and the implicit criticism in them. Its quite different from what was seen in Pakistan before.

Something else worth noting is the Pakistani middle classes obsession with the Indian middle and upper classes lifestyle and freedom. That's part of the draw of Indian television and film. Indian private channels, and to a lesser extent Al-Jazeera (the only real free-speech zone in the Arab world) are the inspiration on which the big Pakistani channels model themselves. They're quite obsessed with the way that Indians see Pakistan and speak of it.

The best way to work on accelarating the depletion of the PA's legitimacy is to use that existing feedback and amplification mechanism. To attack the PA in the Indian media, especially television not as an enemy of India, but as an enemy of the Pakistani people using the critiques of respected Pakistani figures like Ayesha Siddiqa, Tariq Ali, or even Husain Haqani. These are people who have convincingly argued the PA is an avaricious, paranoid institution that stands in the way of development and social justice in Pakistan, and peace between India and Pakistan. The Pakistani channels will jump all over it, and even when the state intervenes to suppress the discussion it will be too late - the meme would have gotten pretty widely out there. The more often the theme is returned to in the Indian media, the harder it will be to shut out, especially when it is linked to the idea of normalisation of Pakistan's abnormal internal conditions and near-pariah regional and international status.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby SSridhar » 07 Mar 2010 08:58

Johann, I agree that the Indian television media can be used to inject into the minds of Pakistani masses the true nature of the Pakistani Army, using more rational Pakistani analysts. However, it will be a slow and long process. IMO, it will be a medium to long-term project. It has to be done in collaboration with powerful Pakistani political leaders who are opposed to the Army (presently, I see only Zardari amenable to that) and in utter secret. And, it has to be done subtly even allowing some of these analysts to vehemently criticize India in the same programmes just to carry credibility. It has to be a series of Hindi/Urdu programmes on various Indian channels. Some Indian TV anchors have to be co-opted and the discussions must be led in a way it will expose the fraud continuously inflicted on Pakistani citizens by a cabal of Army officers in collusion with the Establishment.

This will be unlike the 'Aman ki Asha' which simply wants to sweep the dirt and garbage under the carpet. Nothing will come out of such an approach. There has to be catharsis in Pakistan.

Again, that will be just one tool in Indian hands to turn around Pakistan. There is no one magic silver bullet for resolving the Pakistani problem. There are many, many options, both military and non-military, that India must pursue simultaneously. Apart from targetting Pakistan, India also has to target the 3½ if India has to live in peace and grow.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby abhishek_sharma » 07 Mar 2010 09:02

NWFP renaming

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=27650

ISLAMABAD: In a major development, the PML-N and the ANP are inching towards an agreement to rename the NWFP as “Pukhtoonkhwa-Abaseen” and a final decision would be announced in this regard soon.

According to sources in both the parties, the ANP had already showed flexibility on its demand of renaming the NWFP as Pukhtoonkhwa and even agreed on the names of ‘Afghania’ or ‘Pukhtoonistan’ but the PML-N was demanding the affix of “Abaseen’ or “Khyber with Pukhtoonkhwa to satisfy the people of Dera Ismail Khan and Hazara belt, where Saraiki or Hindko dominates, respectively.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby abhishek_sharma » 07 Mar 2010 09:05

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=27658

General Petraeus, however, acknowledged that the interests of Pakistan and the US differ in Afghanistan. He said Pakistan and the US has the same interest in Afghanistan in not allowing al-Qaeda to re-establish safe havens. “But it also has an interest that is somewhat different than ours, and that is their strategic depth and always has been for a country that’s very narrow and has its historic enemy to its east. So again, we just have to appreciate this.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby abhishek_sharma » 07 Mar 2010 09:16

India rethinking Afghan policy

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010/03/07/story_7-3-2010_pg1_5



...
NEW DELHI: India is planning to open channels of communication with the Afghan Taliban to remain relevant, in the wake of the Western pullout and the fast deteriorating situation in Afghanistan.

Media reports suggest that a host of options were discussed at a meeting of the National Security Council (NSC), chaired by Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, on February 12, which included engaging the Taliban and opening channels of communication directly with the Pakistan Army and its intelligence to ensure safety of its citizens and interests in Kabul. Experts called it a “cold” and “hard” reality.

Intelligence experts have also asked the Indian government to explore alternative political pastures as Afghan President Hamid Karzai was too week to stand the Western pullout. The NSC meeting also decided to step up diplomatic efforts to involve Iran, Russia and Central Asian Republics to prevent handing over of Afghanistan to Pakistan on a platter.

...

Recently, India’s former deputy national security adviser Satish Chandra had also questioned New Delhi’s treatment of the Taliban as “untouchables”. He revealed that during former premier Rajiv Gandhi’s tenure, contacts had been established with militants, including warlord Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. “Once in power, the Taliban’s national interests will inevitably over time lead them to view us more favourably unless we treat them as untouchables. ..."

...


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby arun » 07 Mar 2010 09:17

X Posted. This should ratchet up the raving and ranting in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to a new crescendo.

The Ratle project is on the Chenab River:

Tenders for 690 MW Ratle project opening Monday

TATA, Reliance among 9 bidders await Rs 5000 Cr contract

Rising Kashmir News
Jammu, March 06:

The state government has received nine bids from national and international companies for the 690 MW Ratle project in Kishtwar district, northeast of Jammu. Among the bidders are Tata Power, Reliance Power and Larsen and Toubro Power Development Ltd.

“These tenders would be opened on Monday ( March 8 ),” the official said.

He said the Ratle project, which would be completed by 2016, would be given for 25 years to the highest bidder and would thereafter revert to the state.

The developer is expected to invest more than Rs.5,000 crore for the project, which is going to provide substantial employment opportunities to the youth of the state.


A round up on what else is going on in the hydel sector in J&K:

Meanwhile, the minister of state for Power Shabir Ahmad Khan has said that J&K has a huge power potential of 20000 MW which needs to be harnessed properly to make the state self reliant. “The process for execution of 300 more Power Projects have been started. The construction work on Baghilar-II, Sawalakote, Sewa-I,II and III, Kishanganga, Lower Jhelum-II Hydro-electric Power Projects have been taken up under State and Centre Sector,” he said adding the government would also encourage the construction of power projects under Joint venture and public-private partnership mode in the State.


From:

Rising Kashmir

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby SSridhar » 07 Mar 2010 09:24

The Ratle project will rattle the Pakistanis. They clearly see what is coming and therefore the talk of 'the spirit of the Treaty' etc.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby SSridhar » 07 Mar 2010 10:10

Pakistan demands compensation from EU due to 'war on terror' on account of loss of trade
Being the frontline state in the war against terror, the country’s economic losses have been estimated at over $45 billion for the last few years and the war is expected to continue to negatively impact Pakistan’s economy, they said, adding that the first option to be pursued before the heads of the EU member countries is to ink a Free Trade Agreement with Islamabad, as the EU is negotiating similar arrangement with the country’s trade competitors, especially India. {The Indo-EU trade was worth some 75 Billion USD last year. The Pakistan-EU trade was around USD 8 Billion. Where is the competition ?}

“The second option to be placed before the EU summit would be to provide Pakistan a Generalised System of Preferences (GSP) Plus status for enhanced trade market access, so as to enable the country’s exporters to compete with it’s competitors,” the sources said, adding that the third and crucial option that Pakistan would request to the EU Summit would be to consider immediate concession regime for the country, to compensate its trade losses by allowing import duty concessions in products of Islamabad’s exports interest.{This would be in cotton, textiles, linen & leather}

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby SSridhar » 07 Mar 2010 10:21

An assessment of Jinnah by Ayesha Jalal
However, summary dismissal of the NWFP government, central government’s action against Kalat state and perceived insensitive attitude towards the Bengali language were some of the “errors of judgment” made by the founder of Pakistan, she said. Similarly, holding several positions at the same time like presidentship of the Muslim League and the post of governor general of Pakistan were questionable, she added.

She, however, contended that there was a “context” behind these things, which should be understood. She opined that Jinnah made these “mistakes” for the sake of the state formation and stabilisation, adding, it did not mean that the Quaid was against democracy or federalism. When Jinnah termed provincial aspirations or provincialism as “disease or curse”, it was mainly because he wanted Muslims to unite and it did not mean that he was against provincial rights. Similarly, at one time, the Quaid had realized that he should give up the party presidenship.

Admitting that no leader was above criticism, Ms Jalal advocated a “little mercy” for Jinnah, as he was concerned about national unity and wanted Pakistan to stand on strong footing.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby pgbhat » 07 Mar 2010 10:45

SSridhar wrote:Pakistan demands compensation from EU due to 'war on terror' on account of loss of trade
Being the frontline state in the war against terror, the country’s economic losses have been estimated at over $45 billion for the last few years and the war is expected to continue to negatively impact Pakistan’s economy, they said, adding that the first option to be pursued before the heads of the EU member countries is to ink a Free Trade Agreement with Islamabad, as the EU is negotiating similar arrangement with the country’s trade competitors, especially India. {The Indo-EU trade was worth some 75 Billion USD last year. The Pakistan-EU trade was around USD 8 Billion. Where is the competition ?}
Bania math <<<<<< Madrassa Math. :roll:

In other news
COAS visits ISAF headquarters in Afghanistan wrote:LAHORE: Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Pervaiz Kayani visited the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) headquarters in Afghanistan, a private TV channel reported on Saturday. During his visit, General Kayani met ISAF Commander General David McKiernan and discussed matters of defence cooperation. He also called on President Hamid Karzai in Kabul and discussed matters of mutual interest. daily times monitor

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby chetak » 07 Mar 2010 10:48



The slimy beggars are simply asking the EU to emulate the US and just transfer large funds without audit or question.

The sheer audacity and imagination of these beggars is beyond belief.

What about compensation for all the bombings that have originated or planned from the lund of the pure

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby A Arun » 07 Mar 2010 11:00

Prophet Zaid Hamid has recently accepted his links with the more pious prophet Yousuf Ali aka Kazzab. He must've hoped to quell the rumor mongering once and for all. But this is what he gets...

Lecture at ICU triggers protest

PESHAWAR: The arrival of noted analyst Zaid Hamid to the Islamia College University here Saturday triggered violence on the university campus as various student organisations staged protest against him while the police baton-charged the angry students and arrested their leaders.

Zaid Hamid, however, managed to deliver lecture at the Takbeer Hall amid protest. The student organisations had joined hands to oppose the lecture by someone they called ‘a controversial scholar’. Later elders of the Amn Tehrik also joined the protestors and delivered speeches.
---
The students said they had already informed the university administration of their concerns. But the VC told them that the programme had directly been organised by the NWFP governor, who is chancellor of the university.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby arun » 07 Mar 2010 11:27

The wages of sin.

Parliamentary delegation from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan falls foul of the mandatory full body pat-down instituted in the US for citizens of such terrorist infested “countries of concern” like the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

FATA delegation says no to scanning at US airport, returns home

Updated at: 0800 PST, Sunday, March 07, 2010

LAHORE: A six-member delegation of the National Assembly and Senate returned to Pakistan in protest after refusing a body scan at the Dulles International Airport, ………………………

Talking to the channel, head of the delegation Senator Abbas Khan Afridi …………………..said they were informed before their arrival in the US that they would not face any such discrimination during their visit. ..................

The News

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby shiv » 07 Mar 2010 11:30

skaranam wrote:
What is the point of aiming at huge economy, when u do not have sufficient strenght to defend it. Indian Armed Forces are quite capable. However, future wars are asymmetric and no longer conventional. What we lack as of now is this asymmetric capability. I do not see any possibility of Indian Army running over Pakistan. With every attack we are increasing our threshold level. We are not able to inflict pain on the paki decision makers even symbolically.


With respect Karanamgaru I believe you have net been reading military literature often linked off the mil forum in the last 10 years. Asymmetric warfare and the capability to fight that have been foremost on the minds of the Indian military and many others - with the Indian military being among the most experienced in some aspects

But the nature of asymmetric warfare is such that massive victories and defeats a la 1971 are not possible. This too is well known but has been hitherto impossible to even mention on this forum because when anyone made a statement such I have made he would immediately be told off by a whole lot of patients on this forum who were suffering from Americantis and Discovery channel syndrome.

Typically they would say "Don't talk crap. just look at the Americans. Two buldings lost and they took over two countries. How come asymmetric warfare is winnable by Americans?."

In 2002 this question could not be answered. In 2010 when the massive victory of the US over asymmetric warfare fighters in Afghanistan and Iraq is clear and evident it gets easier to point out the issues that come up in asymmetric warfare that make standard military solutions less useful.

India is not doing badly at all. But nobody wants to believe that India can teach people lessons. We consider Indians as perpetual students. If we can't learn from the Americans, we need to learn from the Chinese and if not the Chinese we have the Pakis to admire and learn from. But oh - we have nothing to teach. Pthooh. Fuggedabahtit.

When it takes a decade for people to figure out what is already known about asymmetric war, it is not surprising if they take another decade to find out who has developed tactics to deal with that kind of war and another decade to figure out that not all those tactics involve "fighting and weapons". Check back on this forum in 2030 for an update..

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby SSridhar » 07 Mar 2010 12:33

Now, for some lighter moments.
Memories of a Pakistani Diplomat, Jamshyd Marker
“In Prime Minister Suhrawardy’s time the joke of the day was that the society ladies were divided into two categories: PPM (pinched by the prime minister and UNPPM (un-pinched by the prime minister)! But he was another very honest man. His only weakness was women.

“Zulfi would say that the only way Suhrawardy can be arrested is for molesting women!”


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby kenop » 07 Mar 2010 12:57

^^^
Adm Mullen says this
In an address to the US Army Command and General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth on Friday, the admiral noted that America has been at war continuously over the last nine years against a syndicate of Muslim extremists, led by Al Qaeda and supported by a host of both state and non-state actors.

Any previous quotation from him along these lines?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Postby Joseph » 07 Mar 2010 13:15

Johann and SSridhar,

I agree that a deprogramming of the cult members in Pakistan is a worthy goal, but India would have limited to no ability in boosting the right person into the Leadership position in Pakistan to replace the PA in the Pakistani power structure. If there would be a weakening in the current dominant position of the PA and the wrong persons gain control at the expense of the PA, would that even be considered an improvement for India? If the right persons would appear to be gaining control, there is always the possibility that the ISI - PA will have them eliminated as they have done over the past decades. I wouldn't expect the PA -ISI to meekly give up the power levers to an enlightened leader that will push Pakistan into the present instead of continuing to dream of the past.

Even if the PA loses its luster in the eyes of the Pakistani people and the right leadership falls into place, the antagonistic attitude to India will still take quite some time to change.


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